What a day...

[krash]

It's interesting, when it comes to unemployment there are a lot of "report fraud" forms, but I'm not finding any for this situation. Now that I'm out of the company I would like the company fined of for their illegal work practices.

because its not a big deal. Seriously. You had a good job. You shouldn't have gotten greedy.

[Watermelonwarrior]

because its not a big deal. Seriously. You had a good job. You shouldn't have gotten greedy.

Ya seriously. Sorry bro I wouldn't take that kind of talk from one of my employees. I seriously don't even like any of them. Depending on what day it is something like this might really piss me off. Other times I might not care as much but its still annoying.

[Bubba1]

You're missing the point.

It wasn't a big deal. It was a passing remark.

My exact phrase was, "We aren't supposed to even touch work equipment before we're on the clock. Federal law says we aren't supposed to perform any work functions without being on the clock."

I actually did come in the 15 minutes early to get everything setup. I was ready to go at 8am. So it wasn't like I was not doing what needed to be done.

It's interesting, when it comes to unemployment there are a lot of "report fraud" forms, but I'm not finding any for this situation. Now that I'm out of the company I would like the company fined of for their illegal work practices.

When I was canned from Stream/Dell we reported them for the same thing. They ended up with a $400k fine and stopped making employees work off the clock. Felt nice

This is your problem, PMQ. It's takes beating you repeatedly over your head with a mallet to convince you when you excercise bad judgement. Yes, You were probably correct about an interpretation of a work rule. Pat yourself on the back for being correct about something so trivial, but also smack yourself across the head for being such a complete dope by bringing it up to not only management but your coworkers which is why you were fired from a job you said you liked. You asked us for feedback, you got it. Stop arguing. Move on.

[Infinitiguy19]

I Have to agree that telling your coworkers was wrong but I am sure if you went up even further along the management ladder then they will be able to see that your right. If not I feel sorry for that company. Sure this isn't China but still give the people there money in this terrible economy.

Whats worse paying the workers for the 15 min they spend working and not getting publicity. Or not paying them have a worker get injured then the company gets sued and exposed and pays a fine and look like a terrible company?

I would choose the latter but sadly I don not own a company (Yet?).

[Bubba1]

I Have to agree that telling your coworkers was wrong but I am sure if you went up even further along the management ladder then they will be able to see that your right. If not I feel sorry for that company. Sure this isn't China but still give the people there money in this terrible economy.

Whats worse paying the workers for the 15 min they spend off the clock and not getting publicity. Or not paying them have a worker get injured then get sued and exposed and pay a fine and look like a terrible company?

I would choose the latter but sadly I don not own a company (Yet?).

Reality check,Paul. if he went higher up, he would have been perceived as a bigger threat and lost his job even more quickly A quarter hour may not seem like much to you, but if multiplied by all of the hourly employees, plus bene
s, 401K etx, (I don;t know how big the staff is) that could be a significant increase in cost for no extra work. And this is over an interpretation of a work rule. IT's not blatantly illegal. If this was your company, your bottom line, and one of your employees made a threat like that and blabbed to the rest of the staff, you wouldnt want him there thinking up other angles that'll cost you even more. Since it's an at will state, the firm doesn;t need a reason to fire him anyway.

[IBCoupe]

Well, dude, I'm not going to tell you that you made a dumb move if you liked the job. But what I am about to tell you is not to be taken, under any conditions, as legal advice. I am not a practicing attorney, and I could be prevented from becoming one if I don't make it perfectly clear that I am not. After reading what I'm going to tell you, if you feel like it's something you want to do, you should consult a real lawyer.

I gather that you were employed in Florida. Florida has an exception to its at-will employment status for whistle-blowers, and this applies to private-sector employees.

It looks like you could be covered by F.S.A. Section 448.102(3), which says:

An employer may not take any retaliatory personnel action against an employee because the employee has... (3) Objected to, or refused to participate in, any activity, policy, or practice of the employer which is in violation of a law, rule, or regulation.

But my reading of the law suggests to me that they fired you very quickly in order to make it difficult for you to bring a successful suit.

An employer may not take any retaliatory personnel action against an employee because the employee has... (1) Disclosed, or threatened to disclose, to any appropriate governmental agency, under oath, in writing, an activity, policy, or practice of the employer that is in violation of a law, rule, or regulation. However, this subsection does not apply unless the employee has, in writing, brought the activity, policy, or practice to the attention of a supervisor or the employer and has afforded the employer a reasonable opportunity to correct the activity, policy, or practice.

Anyways, see a lawyer. You might be able to get one to work on contingency for you (meaning, s/he'll foot the bill for everything, unless you win; if that happens, s/he'll take a third of what you're awarded). Employment suits are a huge pain in the a**, because you're going to be going to the lawyer with no hard evidence, your employer will have all of the records and all of the facts, and will use every incident in your record as an employee against you. It'll get ugly and there's not much you can do about it.

[Bubba1]

Well, dude, I'm not going to tell you that you made a dumb move if you liked the job. But what I am about to tell you is not to be taken, under any conditions, as legal advice. I am not a practicing attorney, and I could be prevented from becoming one if I don't make it perfectly clear that I am not. After reading what I'm going to tell you, if you feel like it's something you want to do, you should consult a real lawyer.

I gather that you were employed in Florida. Florida has an exception to its at-will employment status for whistle-blowers, and this applies to private-sector employees.

It looks like you could be covered by F.S.A. Section 448.102(3), which says:

An employer may not take any retaliatory personnel action against an employee because the employee has... (3) Objected to, or refused to participate in, any activity, policy, or practice of the employer which is in violation of a law, rule, or regulation.

But my reading of the law suggests to me that they fired you very quickly in order to make it difficult for you to bring a successful suit.

An employer may not take any retaliatory personnel action against an employee because the employee has... (1) Disclosed, or threatened to disclose, to any appropriate governmental agency, under oath, in writing, an activity, policy, or practice of the employer that is in violation of a law, rule, or regulation. However, this subsection does not apply unless the employee has, in writing, brought the activity, policy, or practice to the attention of a supervisor or the employer and has afforded the employer a reasonable opportunity to correct the activity, policy, or practice.

Anyways, see a lawyer. You might be able to get one to work on contingency for you (meaning, s/he'll foot the bill for everything, unless you win; if that happens, s/he'll take a third of what you're awarded). Employment suits are a huge pain in the a**, because you're going to be going to the lawyer with no hard evidence, your employer will have all of the records and all of the facts, and will use every incident in your record as an employee against you. It'll get ugly and there's not much you can do about it.

Well, he has nothing in writing, and admitted it was a
"passing remark". They reacted very quickly, so it'd be very difficult to win a case based only nothing but heresay. If this was a job he enjoyed, it was a weird way show it.

[IBCoupe]

That's what discovery's for, Bubba. He only has hearsay right now (though it might be admissable hearsay, given that he has to show a statement in order to prove the claim), and that's all that anyone usually has when they start out a wrongful termination lawsuit.

But the lawyer will get electronic records and will take depositions of his coworkers and his supervisors. Having very little at this point is to be expected in this kind of case; there's probably a great deal of evidence (be it in the form of sworn testimony by his supervisors or in the form of emails exchanged) that he won't have, because his former employer is the one who has it all. Doesn't mean it won't be disclosed - it has to be.

[Jesda]

Read this book. Read it over, and over, and over, and over. You will never make any progress with anyone until you do. Here's a free version:

http://books.google.com/books?id=yxfJDV ... &q&f=false

[Bubba1]

That's what discovery's for, Bubba. He only has hearsay right now (though it might be admissable hearsay, given that he has to show a statement in order to prove the claim), and that's all that anyone usually has when they start out a wrongful termination lawsuit.

But the lawyer will get electronic records and will take depositions of his coworkers and his supervisors. Having very little at this point is to be expected in this kind of case; there's probably a great deal of evidence (be it in the form of sworn testimony by his supervisors or in the form of emails exchanged) that he won't have, because his former employer is the one who has it all. Doesn't mean it won't be disclosed - it has to be.

1. What electronic records? he had one isolated passing conversation.
2. If his bosses had any brains, they would have had the conversation about him in person, and not electronically, so not to create a trail for lawyers. That puts you right back where you started.
3. Are you sure the work rules he's complaining about are actually illegal? There
s a good chance it's legal. Many office SOPs are that you arrive, remove your coat , set up your workstation on your own time and clock in when you are ready to begin work. If it's not illegal, he has no case.

[IBCoupe]

1. What electronic records? he had one isolated passing conversation.
2. If his bosses had any brains, they would have had the conversation about him in person, and not electronically, so not to create a trail for lawyers. That puts you right back where you started.
3. Are you sure the work rules he's complaining about are actually illegal? There
s a good chance it's legal. Many office SOPs are that you arrive, remove your coat , set up your workstation on your own time and clock in when you are ready to begin work. If it's not illegal, he has no case.

1. Everything leading up to his dismissal - there are probably intraoffice communications re: his comments and dismissal.
2. Which is what depositions are for. If you've never been a party to one, it's like being a witness at a trial, only the Judge isn't there to stop a lawyer from ruining your day or asking impermissible questions.
3. His contention is that it is illegal. I'm not going to do all of the legal research for him, I was simply responding to his inquiries as to whistleblower laws. Like I said, he should contact a lawyer.

[Jesda]

What's next? Are you gonna tell your next employer that you need to be compensated for the time you spend putting on pants? I mean, technically, you're required to wear pants, and that's gotta be done "off the clock". Showering and shaving likely fall under that as well. Driving to work? Yep, that's off the clock too. Oh - and shopping for work attire? Yeah, you need an attorney. You're gonna make bank, dude!

Agreement. Its an absurd thing for Brien to make a stink over. If you show up 15 minutes early and start work fully prepared anyway, management will notice you compared to a slacker who flies in at the last minute and settles into his work station in the nick of time. The slacker will be terminated or left to rot in a lower level job.

[PoorManQ45]

This is your problem, PMQ. It's takes beating you repeatedly over your head with a mallet to convince you when you excercise bad judgement. Yes, You were probably correct about an interpretation of a work rule. Pat yourself on the back for being correct about something so trivial, but also smack yourself across the head for being such a complete dope by bringing it up to not only management but your coworkers which is why you were fired from a job you said you liked. You asked us for feedback, you got it. Stop arguing. Move on.

Just to clarify, I did not talk to my coworkers about this prior to termination.

I was fired, and as I'm walking out the door they're going on lunch. So we went outside and talked about what happened.

[nissangirl74]

You just need to learn when to speak up and when to keep your mouth shut. When you're the management, you can make the rules. Until then, be grateful when you find a job and act accordingly.

[PoorManQ45]

Agreement. Its an absurd thing for Brien to make a stink over. If you show up 15 minutes early and start work fully prepared anyway, management will notice you compared to a slacker who flies in at the last minute and settles into his work station in the nick of time. The slacker will be terminated or left to rot in a lower level job.

Actually, it is against the law for the employer to even allow work to occur off the clock even if they are not requesting it.

Any actions taken towards performing your job are considered work related, and therefore should be paid time.

What ended up happening with Stream/Dell after the fine is that the employees aren't allowed to even log in to their workstations before the start of their shift.

There is a legal issue here, I helped report it for one company, I'll do it again for this one.

I understand that I will probably gain nothing from doing this, and I did indeed lose a job. It was not a great job, it was busy work. I've already got an interview lined up so it doesn't really matter about the money.

This is a matter of principle. If I am going to participate in illegal activities I will be the one to choose which ones they will be!

[Jesda]

This is a matter of principle.

No. Its a matter of you wanting eagerly to be right at any cost about something hardly worthwhile.

Go read Carnegie. Its an eye opener that taught me how to deal with human beings in an advantageous manner.

[nissangirl74]

This is a matter of principle.

it's fine to stand up for your principles but makes sure it doesn't make you unemployed and homeless. Also, if you keep doing this, the pattern will form and future employers will start to ask questions when they see your resume. If they see you as a potential threat, you'll probably not even make it to the interview process.

[AZhitman]

This is a matter of principle.

No. Its a matter of you wanting eagerly to be right at any cost about something hardly worthwhile.

Exactly.

I call BS on the $400K issue, and I call shens on this one.

It's an at-will state. If they gave you no reason for your termination, they're pretty much in the clear. I'm betting you acted like a know-it-all around more than one person there, who will gladly testify that you were a PITA and more trouble than you were worth.

When you find a way to make the boss look good, make the company money, and keep the target off your a$$, you'll be wealthy AND secure.

Until then? Keep driving that Buick station wagon.

[srpowered240sx]

when i was 16 i was fired from one car dealership for buying a car at a different dealership. didnt pursue anything because if they dont give you a reason for termination, they can make up one later. sales down, need to downsize; easiest one for them to rely on.

i can see it from both ends, but sounds more like you got an attitude and they didnt like it. try again.

[AZ89two4Tsx]

You just need to learn when to speak up and when to keep your mouth shut. When you're the management, you can make the rules. Until then, be grateful when you find a job and act accordingly.

Exactly.

You obviously didn't value/like your job that much if you would openly say something that dumb to a supervisor. Good luck finding a BETTER one in times like these.

[Bubba1]

[
No. Its a matter of you wanting eagerly to be right at any cost about something hardly worthwhile.

Well said, Jesda. A scorched earth career policy of being determined to be right about such insignificant stuff, and filing complaints over it will eventually catch up to you. The business world is not that big within a field. People talk, and you are making a name for yourself for being turd in the punch bowl. Lord knows, you continually cement that reputation here, by always fighting our input that YOU request.

Some Nala like career advice for you...STFU.

[Bubba1]

Agreement. Its an absurd thing for Brien to make a stink over. If you show up 15 minutes early and start work fully prepared anyway, management will notice you compared to a slacker who flies in at the last minute and settles into his work station in the nick of time. The slacker will be terminated or left to rot in a lower level job.

Actually, it is against the law for the employer to even allow work to occur off the clock even if they are not requesting it.

Any actions taken towards performing your job are considered work related, and therefore should be paid time.

What ended up happening with Stream/Dell after the fine is that the employees aren't allowed to even log in to their workstations before the start of their shift.

There is a legal issue here, I helped report it for one company, I'll do it again for this one.

I understand that I will probably gain nothing from doing this, and I did indeed lose a job. It was not a great job, it was busy work. I've already got an interview lined up so it doesn't really matter about the money.

This is a matter of principle. If I am going to participate in illegal activities I will be the one to choose which ones they will be!

IB, since when are activities like, removing your jacket, unpacking, getting a cup of coffee before sitting down, considered work? You're getting into some nitpicky technicality stuff here rather than a major principle.
Without a paper trail, and in an at-will state, it's a long shot to not only apply that exception but win using it. PMQ should be focusing his efforts on getting a new job rather trying to prove and "cash in" on some trivial point that he should never have brought up in the first place.

[ADDirishboy]

IB, since when are activities like, removing your jacket, unpacking, getting a cup of coffee before sitting down, considered work? You're getting into some nitpicky technicality stuff here rather than a major principle.
Without a paper trail, and in an at-will state, it's a long shot to not only apply that law but win it. PMQ should be focusing his efforts on getting a new job rather trying to prove and "cash in" on some trivial point that he should not have brought up in the first place.

Agreed. They made us do the same thing at my last job. I'd get in early, start up my system, and while it ran updates and gathered all the necessary information from our servers, I went to the bathroom, got coffee, talked to a few friends I had there, and then went back to my desk. By the time I got back, the only thing left to do was open my email, load a browser, and then wait for another minute or 2 before actually turning on my headset and start taking calls.

Do you honestly think I should be paid for that time? I sure as hell don't.

[PoorManQ45]

Exactly.

I call BS on the $400K issue, and I call shens on this one.

The fine was from the state for having employees work off the clock.

[PoorManQ45]

Agreed. They made us do the same thing at my last job. I'd get in early, start up my system, and while it ran updates and gathered all the necessary information from our servers, I went to the bathroom, got coffee, talked to a few friends I had there, and then went back to my desk. By the time I got back, the only thing left to do was open my email, load a browser, and then wait for another minute or 2 before actually turning on my headset and start taking calls.

Per the letter of the law, you're technically starting work.

In a properly managed company the updates will be automatically pushed overnight and the system will be restarted as needed. By requiring you to perform that function they are asking you to do the work.

I know you're probably thinking it's nitpicking, but that's the way the labor law is setup.

IB, since when are activities like, removing your jacket, unpacking, getting a cup of coffee before sitting down, considered work? You're getting into some nitpicky technicality stuff here rather than a major principle.

Those are personal, non-work related actions.

Now, lets say you worked at a shop that didn't let you take your jumpsuit home(weird). Anytime that was spent changing or putting on your jumpsuit should be paid time as this is a requirement of the work environment.

There are certain things that fall into work preparation and not personal preparation.

[PoorManQ45]

Oh, something interesting I forgot to mention.

When first going through the new hire paperwork they made us sign a form that said if we quit without giving a two week notice that they would charge us $96 per day for up to two weeks due to loss of income(contracting company)

Any idea on how exactly that works. I initially was amused by it as the companies aren't required to give you two weeks notice before they fire you...

[Bubba1]

Agreed. They made us do the same thing at my last job. I'd get in early, start up my system, and while it ran updates and gathered all the necessary information from our servers, I went to the bathroom, got coffee, talked to a few friends I had there, and then went back to my desk. By the time I got back, the only thing left to do was open my email, load a browser, and then wait for another minute or 2 before actually turning on my headset and start taking calls.

Per the letter of the law, you're technically starting work.

In a properly managed company the updates will be automatically pushed overnight and the system will be restarted as needed. By requiring you to perform that function they are asking you to do the work.

I know you're probably thinking it's nitpicking, but that's the way the labor law is setup.

IB, since when are activities like, removing your jacket, unpacking, getting a cup of coffee before sitting down, considered work? You're getting into some nitpicky technicality stuff here rather than a major principle.

Those are personal, non-work related actions.

Now, lets say you worked at a shop that didn't let you take your jumpsuit home(weird). Anytime that was spent changing or putting on your jumpsuit should be paid time as this is a requirement of the work environment.

There are certain things that fall into work preparation and not personal preparation.

What specific labor law?? Are you thinking of specific union contracts? You absolutely are nitpicking.

Think about the bottom line. Let's say you actually win some sort of claim against them. What are you going to get out of it, besides feeding your weird compulsion to be right no matter what?

Well, you might get your job back...temporarily, perhaps even with back pay. But you've effectively eliminated any opportunity for advancement there. you won't be able to use them as a reference because you are now a non-team playing turd who cost them money over something stupid. So the longer you stay, the more your next employer will wonder why you can;t use them as a reference, or why they gave you a non-reference about your tenure. As info, non-references are a huge warning sign. Your current company will get rid of you at the earliest opportunity anyway.
You will not get a mega millions payday it's not that huge an infraction, if it actually is one. At best, they will be forced to raise the wages or extend a break period.

So If they are forced to pay every hourly employee an additional 15 minutes pay + benefits, that means their costs will go up without any improvements in productivity. You can bet they'll want to offset that cost increase somehow.
Could be by laying someone off, perhaps eliminate certain perks, reduce or suspend raises, reduce the match on 401K's. just realize that making them an adversery to prove your point is short sighted and will end up costing you in other ways.

Please go ahead and fight them to win your silly technicality. It appears you're going to try anyway.

[ADDirishboy]

Per the letter of the law, you're technically starting work.

In a properly managed company the updates will be automatically pushed overnight and the system will be restarted as needed. By requiring you to perform that function they are asking you to do the work.

I know you're probably thinking it's nitpicking, but that's the way the labor law is setup.

Our individual computers are completely shut down every day before we leave. This is too conserve energy and money needed to keep those systems connected whilst the computer sleeps. So there was no way for our computers to update themselves while we were away. And it's not like I was actually updating the computer. It automatically searched out and installed updates while it booted. All I did was press a power button and type in my user name and password. I hardly think that qualifies as work.

And TBH, if that DOES qualify as work to you, you need to seriously rethink your work ethic.

[krash]

Per the letter of the law, you're technically starting work.

In a properly managed company the updates will be automatically pushed overnight and the system will be restarted as needed. By requiring you to perform that function they are asking you to do the work.

I know you're probably thinking it's nitpicking, but that's the way the labor law is setup.

JEBUS CHRIST! YOU'RE PRESSING A FEW DAMN BUTTONS ON A MACHINE. Why do you need to start up your system before work? So YOU can get ready for work and make money that YOU want to make. Not because you're some integral part of the company and they'll fall apart without you, obviously that isn't the case. It really sucks that you're like this, I thought it was just on NICO, but you go around acting like a know-it-all out in the world? I know I'm younger than you, but even I know that NO ONE likes a know-it-all. If you want to get ahead you need people to like you, not think you're a PITA.

Also, Dale Carnegie is the man. How to stop Worrying and Start Living was an awesome book.

[Bubba1]

Oh, something interesting I forgot to mention.

When first going through the new hire paperwork they made us sign a form that said if we quit without giving a two week notice that they would charge us $96 per day for up to two weeks due to loss of income(contracting company)

Any idea on how exactly that works. I initially was amused by it as the companies aren't required to give you two weeks notice before they fire you...

Simple. If you quit, you must give them two weeks notice, which gives them time to replace you without losing productivity. Many companies don't actually enforce that clause unless the employee acts like turd.....(hint hint)