What a day...

[PoorManQ45]

The problem with letting people keep working that 2 weeks is that they will not care about their work. If I had been given 2 weeks notice when I was fired from my job, I would have yelled at customers every chance I got and not done any of my normal work. And paid two weeks? For what? You did something dumb to get fired. You don't deserve any extra pay.

Well, it's a little difficult if it's a firing.

This practice happens all time when employees are laid off.

There are stipulations. You can't use your vacation time, you can't miss a day, if you break rules you'll be fired, etc...

[Jesda]

And really American companies should care more about the employees whether minimum wage or good salary.

Supply, meet demand.

Currently, labor supply vastly exceeds labor demand. Suck it up or collect food stamps.

[AZhitman]

And I will never be happy till two weeks notice is given to the employee that he is getting fired

Paul, you really surprise me with this. It's a terribly clueless statement. Let me throw a few scenarios at you:

Last month, I conducted an investigation on an employee who was fabricating birth certificates. This case has since gone to the Feds for criminal prosecution. Considering the extreme risks and liability that his behavior represents to the State, he was placed on Admin Leave, and summarily FIRED as soon as my investigation was completed.

You'd keep him around for 2 weeks? WHY?

Prior to that, I conducted an investigation on an employee who was downloading and distributing pornography via a state computer. Again, considering the extreme risks and liability that his behavior represents to the State, he was placed on Admin Leave, and summarily FIRED as soon as my investigation was completed.

You'd keep him around for 10 more work days as well? WHY?

I'm working on a case right now in which employees were subjected to a "pat-down" search for a stolen item on their way out of the office after a shift. The involved supervisors are all currently on Admin Leave, and if my investigation reveals that they did, in fact, commit this action, guess what? Hasta la bye-bye. Can't have that kind of risk, liability or exposure.

Yet you want them kept around for 2 weeks? WHY?

Late last year, another case - Employee texted several other employees a pic of his genitals. Fired.

Yet, you want the taxpayers to fund another 2 weeks pay for him? WHY?

[Jesda]

And I will never be happy till two weeks notice is given to the employee that he is getting fired where there he is still required to work there or he is given a paid two weeks break. Its only fair and I don't understand how that can't be a good thing.

Why do you want some dillhole who can't do his job to get two weeks of undeserved pay?

[AZhitman]

Why do you want some dillhole who can't do his job to get two weeks of undeserved pay?

BECAUSE IT'S JUST NOT FAIR!!!

[nissangirl74]

I have just read this thread with some hope of accomplishment since I left it last night. I'd like that half hour back, please and thank you. The only thing worse than this thread going four pages is the fact that you still haven't grasped what we are telling you. I did some math for you that you might want to consider real close before you decide to spout your mouth off to your next management team.

Hypothetically speaking, say you make $20/hour.
The fifteen minutes you are complaining about is worth $5 (before taxes).
At 246 work days per year, that amounts to $1230.
I won't argue that $1230 is a sizable amount of money. I sure as hell wouldn't want to hand it back if someone offered it to me.
However, think about what giving that $1230 saves you. You have a full-time accountant who takes care of your payments to the IRS, your tax payments to the state (if applicable), the Social Security Dept., your 401K, your health insurance co., and the dental insurance company. They also match any 401K contributions up to a certain percentage, they pay the bulk of the cost of your health insurance, and most companies will give you about 14 paid days of vacation a year, to do absolutely freaking nothing at the location of your choice AND get paid for it. (Which at $20 an hour adds up to roughly $2240.00)
If you weren't so absorbed with what you thought you were entitled to and took a minute to realize what you had to be grateful for, you never would have opened your mouth.

PLEASE, listen to those who are trying to help you.

[Bubba1]

I have just read this thread with some hope of accomplishment since I left it last night. I'd like that half hour back, please and thank you. The only thing worse than this thread going four pages is the fact that you still haven't grasped what we are telling you. I did some math for you that you might want to consider real close before you decide to spout your mouth off to your next management team.

Hypothetically speaking, say you make $20/hour.
The fifteen minutes you are complaining about is worth $5 (before taxes).
At 246 work days per year, that amounts to $1230.
I won't argue that $1230 is a sizable amount of money. I sure as hell wouldn't want to hand it back if someone offered it to me.
However, think about what giving that $1230 saves you. You have a full-time accountant who takes care of your payments to the IRS, your tax payments to the state (if applicable), the Social Security Dept., your 401K, your health insurance co., and the dental insurance company. They also match any 401K contributions up to a certain percentage, they pay the bulk of the cost of your health insurance, and most companies will give you about 14 paid days of vacation a year, to do absolutely freaking nothing at the location of your choice AND get paid for it. (Which at $20 an hour adds up to roughly $2240.00)
If you weren't so absorbed with what you thought you were entitled to and took a minute to realize what you had to be grateful for, you never would have opened your mouth.

PLEASE, listen to those who are trying to help you.

Well said, Bex.

[PoorManQ45]

I have just read this thread with some hope of accomplishment since I left it last night. I'd like that half hour back, please and thank you. The only thing worse than this thread going four pages is the fact that you still haven't grasped what we are telling you. I did some math for you that you might want to consider real close before you decide to spout your mouth off to your next management team.

Hypothetically speaking, say you make $20/hour.
The fifteen minutes you are complaining about is worth $5 (before taxes).
At 246 work days per year, that amounts to $1230.
I won't argue that $1230 is a sizable amount of money. I sure as hell wouldn't want to hand it back if someone offered it to me.
However, think about what giving that $1230 saves you. You have a full-time accountant who takes care of your payments to the IRS, your tax payments to the state (if applicable), the Social Security Dept., your 401K, your health insurance co., and the dental insurance company. They also match any 401K contributions up to a certain percentage, they pay the bulk of the cost of your health insurance, and most companies will give you about 14 paid days of vacation a year, to do absolutely freaking nothing at the location of your choice AND get paid for it. (Which at $20 an hour adds up to roughly $2240.00)
If you weren't so absorbed with what you thought you were entitled to and took a minute to realize what you had to be grateful for, you never would have opened your mouth.

PLEASE, listen to those who are trying to help you.

I completely understand what you're getting at. The relative amount that you're missing out on as an individual is low compared to the overall benefits from the job.

What you fail to acknowledge is that if you did not work those 15 minutes off the clock you would still get those other benefits that you listed.

Another problem with breaking it down like you did is that you gave a total for one person. Lets say you have a small/medium business with 100 people that fall into this situation. If they all made the hypothetical amount of $20/hr that means that the company is getting $123000 in free labor. And that's not even correct as the 15 minutes would be pure overtime as it exceeds 40 hours.

At $20/hr that's $30/hr. So you'd miss out on $1845 per year per employee. So the company gets $184500 in free labor over 100 employees.

So, at $39200 a year per employee the company is getting away with not hiring 4.7 more people.

[krash]

There is not point. PMQ, why did you make a thread about this? You're like Nala, you make a thread asking for input, and then when you are given input your can' comprehend it. I just hope you're not as hardheaded for the rest of your life, because you're going to miss out on some good opportunities man.

[Jesda]

I completely understand what you're getting at. The relative amount that you're missing out on as an individual is low compared to the overall benefits from the job.

No, Brien, what you're now missing is the entire paycheck and all of the benefits.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW2vrPpmJOA[/youtube]

[krash]

[PyR0NiAk]

[Speedy7_7]

Its going to be ok.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7lJpFwAcCs[/youtube]

[Bubba1]

You are not giving any indication that you understand what Bex said with your nitpicking. Review the big picture, kid. To survive, a company must make more than its spends. They clearly did not take into account you trying to extract more money from them without any added value. Call it whatever you want, but that is exactly how your former company and most of us here perceive your actions.

Next , If they did make the change, which is multiplied by all hourly employees, they'd have to cut cost somewhere else in their budget to maintain their profitability. You could very easily end up losing a different benefit, (like the size of their VOLUNTARY 401K match) that is more valuable than 15 minutes pay) to restore that budget. Did that ever occur to you? No. That's because you're looking at it from such a narrow perspective.

You are also ignoring a very basic rule in career management. If you want an opportunity to get promoted or become valuable to another company, you figure out ways to help your company succeed. Establish a personal track record of value. You, on the other hand, are solely focused on extracting the maximum money you can by exploiting a work rule interpretation. That's obviously not adding value and you did it without thinking how the company would react. No one here except you were surprised you got dumped.

Unless your parents are wealthy and can support you, you really need to stop being a selfish argumentative tool that no one will want to hire, promote and keep. And step one is to stop fighting us. You lost. Learn from your mistake and move on. That is ,unless you want to get less respect here than Nala.
You're just about there, buddy.

[Bubba1]

[No, Brien, what you're now missing is the entire paycheck and all of the benefits.

]

[Infinitiguy19]

And I will never be happy till two weeks notice is given to the employee that he is getting fired

Paul, you really surprise me with this. It's a terribly clueless statement. Let me throw a few scenarios at you:

Last month, I conducted an investigation on an employee who was fabricating birth certificates. This case has since gone to the Feds for criminal prosecution. Considering the extreme risks and liability that his behavior represents to the State, he was placed on Admin Leave, and summarily FIRED as soon as my investigation was completed.

You'd keep him around for 2 weeks? WHY?

Prior to that, I conducted an investigation on an employee who was downloading and distributing pornography via a state computer. Again, considering the extreme risks and liability that his behavior represents to the State, he was placed on Admin Leave, and summarily FIRED as soon as my investigation was completed.

You'd keep him around for 10 more work days as well? WHY?

I'm working on a case right now in which employees were subjected to a "pat-down" search for a stolen item on their way out of the office after a shift. The involved supervisors are all currently on Admin Leave, and if my investigation reveals that they did, in fact, commit this action, guess what? Hasta la bye-bye. Can't have that kind of risk, liability or exposure.

Yet you want them kept around for 2 weeks? WHY?

Late last year, another case - Employee texted several other employees a pic of his genitals. Fired.

Yet, you want the taxpayers to fund another 2 weeks pay for him? WHY?

You were right to do what you did with those guys, no denying that. But the employer is never alway right and sometimes does fire wrongfully without good reason, Wrongful termination is the term.

I believe at least give the guy 2 weeks paid if you don't have proof that he did something wrong. In your cases you did have proof I assume and you gave them administrative leave, not sure what that is though.

I was fired from somewhere because someone thought I did something wrong and had no proof. The company learned there lesson and I got on with my life. And since this is the internet thats all I will say.

And companies shouldn't have to sacrifice to lower employee's benefits to abide by the law, If you have to then they don't know what they are doing in the case of huge such as the one talked about.

But like you all say, your wasting your time because PMQ will never agree with you and nothing will be resolved here.

[Jesda]

I believe at least give the guy 2 weeks paid if you don't have proof that he did something wrong. In your cases you did have proof I assume and you gave them administrative leave, not sure what that is though.

I was fired from somewhere because someone thought I did something wrong and had no proof. The company learned there lesson and I got on with my life. And since this is the internet thats all I will say.

And companies shouldn't have to sacrifice to lower employee's benefits to abide by the law, If you have to then they don't know what they are doing in the case of huge such as the one talked about.

WTFBBQ.

Do you understand how a free market works?

You can buy or sell your goods at whatever price the market demands.

You can buy or sell labor resources at whatever price the market demands.

The right to free association means I, as an employer, can choose to cease doing business with you.

There is zero obligation on the part of the employer to "prove" anything to the fired employee. And why the hell would you want to keep working for a place that wants you gone? Only high-level jobs (with people that are difficult/expensive to replace) and union jobs (check out the gorgeous city of Detroit) come with investigations and other kinds of idiocy.

Your sense of entitlement alarming, worse than PMQ's insistence on being right at any cost.

[Dattebayo]

Why do you want some dillhole who can't do his job to get two weeks of undeserved pay?

BECAUSE IT'S JUST NOT FAIR!!!

lol I actually get what he's saying.

He wants the employer to be forced to obey every detail since the worker is constantly under watch for the same type of details. While I do think his situation was really handled stupidly by the employer, he deserves his right to do what he thinks is best. Go ahead and report the company, but next time just tell one of your other co-workers instead of mentioning it to someone with authority.

Large companies ARE big bullies when it comes to little details like this, and the little guy does have to eat it a lot. I liked whoever said "take extra time on a lunch break" or whatever. That makes more sense to me rather than all this crap. You could have saved a bunch of trouble rather than try to make it harder for everyone else. I am also willing to bet that none of your supervisors or co-workers liked you very much, Brien. That can get help you fired to when you're such a douchenozzle.

[Infinitiguy19]

Like I said thats my opinion and I doubt anything will change because of it. And Jesda Free market or not its about making the customer AND the employee's happy. If either is unhappy then your business may not suffer much but it sure won't look good, case in point Wal-Mart.

I worked for companies who have union's and its always one hand wipes the other with them. To be fair I only worked with two companies that had unions.

Like yesterday I had some guy try and cut me off in a Crapsus (Lexus). He was on the opposite lane and wanted to turn into a store without a so much as a turn signal or stopping to see if it is clear to do so. So anyways I don't let him and thank God his gas pedal doesn't get stuck either. He gets very upset with his arms flailing and I continue to drive. This happened 300 feet from the police station as well.

The above story has nothing to do with this topic but I am just showing how much of a f*** up world were in.

[Jesda]

Like I said thats my opinion and I doubt anything will change because of it. And Jesda Free market or not its about making the customer AND the employee's happy. If either is unhappy then your business may not suffer much but it sure won't look good, case in point Wal-Mart.

No. Its about earning a profit for the owners (shareholders, private owners, whatever). Whatever happiness you perceive to be the goal of an enterprise is false.

The importance of the satisfaction of the employee depends entirely on the cost of turnover and the supply of labor versus the demand.

And employee satisfaction has nothing to do with any of your proposals. A terminated employee left on for two additional weeks will harm the morale of other employees like poisonous blood. Money isn't always the way to job satisfaction either.

You have to take good, reliable people and offer them recognition, enlargement, and enrichment. Eventually, these greater responsibilities lead to promotion. Someone approaching termination for reasons of personal discipline, like promptness and attention to detail, can occasionally be retrained depending again on the value of the position and the cost of turnover.

Someone approaching termination because they've made veiled legal threats is completely unsuitable.

[Beancooker]

I can't believe I missed this train wreck.

FWIW, I will not allow anyone to work off the clock. If you want to get your tools/van/machines ready, whatnot, do it after you clock in at 8am.

Now if I had a whiny PITA like Brien, making passive aggressive comments/threats toward the company, I would simply start a trail of documentation of all the crap he did that was not up to company standards. This is a simple list to compile. Not following directions, rudeness, insubordination, all easy to "prove" since they are a perception. I would email this documentation to HR, as well as giving him written warnings about his conduct. Shortly there after I would terminate him.

Brien, tuck your sac, shut your mouth and bust your @$$. A good work ethic and a quiet mouth will get you a lot farther than your desire to be infallible.

[Beancooker]

If you were MY employee, here's what I'd do: I'd dock you for every SECOND you're not doing your job. You get 2 15-minute (TIMED) breaks and a lunch in an 8-hour shift. Don't go to the bathroom EXCEPT on break. Do NOT talk to anyone unless it's directly related to work. Don't answer your cell phone, don't look out the window, don't take a sip of water, don't daydream, don't adjust your collar, don't check out the chick in the cubicle down the hall, stay the F away from my water cooler, don't read the paper, don't pick your nose, adjust your chair, stretch, or move. WORK. And I'll dock you for EVERY SECOND that you're not making me money. EVERY second.

I'm not that strict, but I am not too far from it either. Our unwritten policy is that we don't dock employees pay. If it gets to the point that someone sucks so bad as to warrant a docking of pay, I have not been doing my job as a Manager, and documenting their misuse of company time.

We issue warnings for two reasons. One so we have documentation should the need for termination arise. Two, it is a lot more cost effective to reshape an employees bad habits, than to fire/hire/train a new person.

[Infinitiguy19]

Thats why PMQ if you see something wrong next time go directly to the state and let them know about it, screw the company.

Any luck with something showing Dell had to pay $400K?

Talk about a tough world when workers are only statistics and not even worth being called a human being.

When I open up my shop I will treat every employee the right way. And sure my shop will never be a enterprise but that makes it all the more harder to treat employee's right where the multi-million if not billion dollar company has the power to do the right thing but only cares about keeping the owners happy.

Seriously the key to a successful company is about keeping the employee's and customers happy while abiding by the law. Other wise whats the use of a law if people break it and can't pay the price for it, right?

Like I told a manager who I worked for when I was 16:

He told me "there will always be a boss I have to listen to"
I told him "I will work at the cooperate office"
He said "Then you have to answer to the banks (The real owners?)"
I then told him "I will work for the bank" and we left it at that.

I am sure the company PMQ worked for could afford ~200K a year to abide by the law and keep the PMQ and who know how many other employee's happy.

I used to work for another company that sold chemicals but that sadly was a temporary summer job. I was not allowed to touch a chemical till on the clock. Really I was not allowed to work or do anything till I was on the clock. Sure it wasn't the safest place to work but they clearly knew what they were doing.

Don't worry, you wouldn't make it through the first interview.

When I said I would never work for you, You do know that means I would never inquire about a job at your work place hence never getting and interview in the first place, right?

So my guess is that you always want to get the last word in, right?

But like I said and will always be true: we are only talking to ourselves as nothing will happen and none of our minds will change.

[Urabus GodofTraction]

ITT: entitlement!

[Beancooker]

Greg: Remember when I made a comment about your finances and you said, "You don't know jack about my finances"?

Well, your extreme skew in this conversation is showing that you obviously are not in the "average" range of American income...

Brien, Wealth is a matter of perception. To someone making minimum wage at a Verizon call center, I'm sure that Greg looks wealthy. Hell, you would probably consider me wealthy. It's not that either of us make millions of dollars, however we make decent or wise financial decisions. We both have a good work ethic, and do what needs to get done to bring home the paycheck. If it means working for 15 minutes a day without pay, then so be it.

Right now I am salary. It is what you would consider a "40 hour week salary". However I have been working 60+ hours a week for the last month. I don't ask for compensation for that time. I don't ask for comp days. (I know if I want a few days here and there off, no one will care.)

You are probably wondering WHY??? Why in God's name would anyone work 50% more for the same pay.

Bottom line: First, if my department does well, my bonus is increased substantially. So is my salary. Nice little things come my way from the company. I was kicked down a new phone (HTC EVO 4G) as a company phone. I have a Dell Laptop that will be here in a couple of days to make my job easier, and so some of this work I can do from home, instead of having to be at work. I have a brand new beautiful office with a big window in our new warehouse. Basically, I shut up, and do what needs to be done to profit the company I work for, and it pays be on the back-end. That is how business works. They don't pay you more in hopes you work harder. You work harder and they pay you more.

Second: I dropped out of highschool in the 10th grade. There is no one who will pay me a quarter of what I make now, as an entry level employee. I know I have a good thing going, and I am not about to f**k it up.

[Beancooker]

If you leave on a moment's notice, I have to hire a temp to replace you until we issue your position, advertise for it, and hire / train a new person. You cost me money. This is grade-school knowledge.

So, you're advocating the company screwing the little guy?

When a company fires an employee that employee is not given any notice. They are left to search for a job, pay bills, etc... That line of thinking goes both ways.

Brien, minimum ware jobs do not include a severance package. They never have, and hopefully never will. That's just the way business works. It will never change.

[Beancooker]

What you fail to acknowledge is that if you did not work those 15 minutes off the clock you would still get those other benefits that you listed.

Actually, no you don't get those other benefits. You get fired, and you get no benefits.

[Beancooker]

When I open up my shop I will treat every employee the right way. And sure my shop will never be a enterprise but that makes it all the more harder to treat employee's right where the multi-million if not billion dollar company has the power to do the right thing but only cares about keeping the owners happy.

Seriously the key to a successful company is about keeping the employee's and customers happy while abiding by the law. Other wise whats the use of a law if people break it and can't pay the price for it, right?

Ever taken a class on business management? While I respect the idea of what you want to accomplish, and it sounds great, but highly successful businesses don't operate that way. Businesses are there to make a profit. Not to make employees rich.

[Infinitiguy19]

When I open up my shop I will treat every employee the right way. And sure my shop will never be a enterprise but that makes it all the more harder to treat employee's right where the multi-million if not billion dollar company has the power to do the right thing but only cares about keeping the owners happy.

Seriously the key to a successful company is about keeping the employee's and customers happy while abiding by the law. Other wise whats the use of a law if people break it and can't pay the price for it, right?

Ever taken a class on business management? While I respect the idea of what you want to accomplish, and it sounds great, but highly successful businesses don't operate that way. Businesses are there to make a profit. Not to make employees rich.

I never took any class of that sort. I am however saying that the employee will feel better if he is paid that time VS not paid for doing something for 15 min.

What would happen if that employee were to clock in 15 min early and get paid to do what he is told to do off the clock?

Comcast is giving away a free Ipod Touch to customers who sign up for there deal as a incentive. Those costs more than $5 and I am sure there are more than 100 people signing up for there deal to get the Ipod touch and then say "Screw you" to Comcast. So say that were Verizon wouldn't they be loosing more money that way then by cheating the system and not paying employee's?

[Beancooker]

Oh I have the perfect solution to your issue Brien. This way you could get paid for your precious 15 minutes per day.

Brien, what would you have said if management had made this announcement:

"No one will be expected to work off the clock ever again. Feel free to clock in 15 minutes early to take care of whatever you feel is necessary to do. We want to make sure you are compensated for every second of time you work.

However in order to accomplish this, we will no longer offer health insurance of any kind, 401k is canceled - open your own IRA, paid vacation time is no longer distributed. Those who have accrued vacation time will be cashed out for it, and it will no longer be offered."

This was an inaccurate example due to new laws as pointed out to me by Dave. Please see below for the reworded hypothetical scenario.