Someone please back me up, 200+ HP KA....

[InsanityInc]

Well, first off, he's not a friend of mine, I just looked for somebody who did custom manifolds, and found him. Second, he's in the process of fabricating and testing them, they should be done this month some time.

[keepingthe240]

The topic of the "old school" engines and the more modern v/e was covered in the summitracing catalog a few years ago. FRom what i remember. The 60's and 70's engines had 45% v/e and the modern engines have basicly 75%(v6-8 design)-85(straight4-6-8 design)% v/e. You can ask the guy on that site if you like! Why did the ol' engines have a low v/e, you might ask. The head design was horrible. The ports and runners had to go around the bolts.THe head design was an afterthought. Swap the heads or machine them to smoothen the bends and you would see a 65% v/e at best with a carb and 75% with fuel injection (a dual plane intake also helps) I already know that most people wouldn't build up a n/a. But you can onlyget so much out of a ghetto rigged ka.turbo. A tricked out ka.t would run you 8K to build. Heck, no ones ever tested the limits of a turboed ka like the story in scc (810hp 2.0 liter gm)

er... that link doesn't go anywhere that says anything about VE...

Also, bob, I tend to get the impression that very, very few people have tried an N/A build with a KA. Turbos are far more JDM TYTE !!1!11eleven .

[RMiller]

That formula is too general and does not apply in all cases. I calculated what the hp would be for 2 L S2k and got 208 crank hp. That's pretty far off from the actual 240. I am certain 200whp is doable w/o power adders. There was a writeup in one of those crazy magazines w/ a KA that made about 160-170 whp(don't remember for sure) and all it had done was intake/header/exhaust/pulleys. That's crazy. Imagine if you added cams, ITBs, slightly higher compression, stronger rod bolts, rods, lightened flywheel, and raised the PEAK power to about 7k. 200 whp is DEFINITELY doable, I would put money on it.

Oh, and a Mustang GT has a SOHC v8, not DOHC. It has 302 ('99-'04) lb-ft vs. the 350z's 274 lb-ft.

[mackdaddy240]

Kind of off subject but wouldnt a nice set of individual throttle bodies set you over 200hp? I saw a set up on a website somwhere but I cant remember where it was, does anybody know where to find a set?

[nonchalant rage]

could always custom make a set like the honda guys do. just cut the stock manifold a little bast the injector bungs, get some gsx-r itb's and custom fab away! im not sure what the best propoerly matched TB size would be for the ka, though.

[InsanityInc]

the problem with ITBs is that you can't use a MAF setup anymore. Converting it is kind of a pain. It's also kind of overkill unless you plan to do some serious work to increase the revability of the KA. Not much reason for ITBs when you're redlining at 7000.

The manifold had some setbacks, should be here late nov/early dec. And I don't doubt that a different manifold/ITBs with bolt ons would put you over 200whp, simply because you could actually utilize the revability of the engine. You'd also see far better gains from cams.

[HaveBlue]

Its possible. just not on a street car (depending on your deffinition of 'street car' i suppose). I ran accross this on the socal mailing list about a in november.

<disclaimer> You can contact the original poster ([email protected]) about the details because i have no idea if they are valid or not. I have never seen dyno charts or the car/motor/person.</disclaimer>

Taken from the socal mailing list:"Here's so specs.lets start at the w/ the block shot-pinged and cryo hardened,  ka24de front oil pump galleys bypassed, all galleys opened .010" except cylinder wash downs ,bored over .20, 2 Cross pins installed on all crank bearings, Four bolt main cap, stock shot pinged and cryo hardened main cap, Milled top end to receive factory head gasket, ( the gasket sits just inside of the block with .032" recess)Modified stock oil pan with a E style custom blue printed high flow oil pump, on a dry sump system, hand milled rolled crank thats been destroked, JE custom pistons w/ Valve notches and offset wrist pin, aluminum rods H style, Custom chain and gears by Superior bearing,hand milled smaller intake 3 angle, liquid filled, coated valves, high-rev dual springs titanium keepers,Too much polishing, and some porting, Smaller seats. 47cc combustion camber 14.3 compression. My magic touch cams (the only thing I did on the motor,) Magneto Direct distro. electric water pump, custom tuned Multi port intake,(harmonically balanced to match) harmonically tuned  header. NPGplus coolant W/ under sized aluminum radiator, Injectors you can shower under. KA24DE's stand alone engine management system (that is always plugged in to the think pad).stock bearings (that only last about 10 hours), linked to a modified titanium input gears trans thanks to Kevin Pertil. W/ one beautiful ortho. crank pulley,Running on 105 octane leaded gas w/ 5% methanol and 10% nitro. no noshp measured of trans. trying to find strong LSD. I'm getting sick of CUSTOM and MODIFIED. takes to long to get parts.

I'll get pics Soon. And upload dyno charts she can move faster but the Power doesn't get much better. on the second set of bearings she went 9,000 with only 216hp. But it pushed a valve after about 26sec.(need to make a iron head...and I don't think those liquid filled valves can stand the speed) Torque sucks but thats not what I wanted.I sure we can build a better head for torque, but I just want to prove that the KA can move just as fast as the SR...But I guess you could argue that there ain't much of the OG KA left  Just block and head...Maybe not even head.More R&D to come... If I don't punch a hole in the block first."

[InsanityInc]

what did they destroke it to? Honestly, if they're only making 216@9000 on race gas and 14.6:1 compression, they're doing something horribly wrong. Also, he says in the last paragraph that he's just proving that a KA can be made to move as fast as an SR, not trying to get the best horsepower out of it.
Modified by InsanityInc at 7:14 PM 11/14/2004

[RMiller]

That sucks. What a waste of money. Here's what you would need for 200whp, and I've said it before:-intake/header/exhaust/pulleys-flywheel-cams/gears-rod bolts-slightly higher compression pistons-management

[keepingthe240]

The post by ( haveblue) was some joke. The motor had a drysump and an electric water pump and it made 216hp. It doesn't say if it was @ the wheels though.

Rmiller.....nope! You'll never get 200whp with just what you have listed. I'd give it 200 @ the flywheel at best.

[InsanityInc]

Well, if by "management" he means the AEM management thingy, then you probably would get to right around 200. With bolt ons, KA24DEs tend to get a bit above 160whp, and the AEM thing has been proven to add 30whp on a stock engine, so probably even more on a modded one, but even if it didn't, the pistons would supply the extra 10. Only problem is the AEM EMS is very expensive, and there are undoubtedly cheaper ways to accomplish 200whp.

[:: orion ::]

Yeah, but there IS NOT 30rwhp worth of fuel and timing tuning on a KA ECU....*maybe* 15rwhp, at the most.

It's not like we get 5 degrees of timing advance MAX or run 11:1 A/F's on a stock KA24DE ECU.

Standalone is cool, but not worth that kind of power unlkess you can move the power up a few thousand RPMs, which we cannot do on a KA with stock crank.

- Brian

[InsanityInc]

Quote »Yeah, but there IS NOT 30rwhp worth of fuel and timing tuning on a KA ECU....*maybe* 15rwhp, at the most.[/quote]Right, go argue with the dyno graphs they released, and the dyno graphs people have confirmed with when they bought the thing.

Quote »It's not like we get 5 degrees of timing advance MAX or run 11:1 A/F's on a stock KA24DE ECU.[/quote]Actually, full throttle has a completely separate fuel map on a stock ECU which is very rich, and can't be influenced by an SAFC or anything of the sort. You need an ECU reprogram (or in this place, a replacement) to get rid of it. That's where a good deal of the gains come from.

Quote »Standalone is cool, but not worth that kind of power unlkess you can move the power up a few thousand RPMs, which we cannot do on a KA with stock crank.[/quote]Oh, you mean like 1600 rpms? Say from the stock power peak to the stock redline? You don't say. Funny, seems like I've been saying that for a while now, and you can do it fine on the stock crank. However, that's not what the EMS does, as there's no way it can do that.

[:: orion ::]

Right, go argue with the dyno graphs they released, and the dyno graphs people have confirmed with when they bought the thing.

Show me a KA dyno where they "found" 30rwhp...not a B16, not a turbo motor...an N/A KA24DE.

I won't hold my breathe.

Actually, full throttle has a completely separate fuel map on a stock ECU which is very rich, and can't be influenced by an SAFC or anything of the sort. You need an ECU reprogram (or in this place, a replacement) to get rid of it. That's where a good deal of the gains come from.

Yeah, but JWT seems to have "optimized" that map...a little over 10 degrees of timing advance and high-12, low-13 A/Fs.

More timing is a waste, and the A/F cannot be tuned much more...where are they finding the gains?

Oh, you mean like 1600 rpms? Say from the stock power peak to the stock redline? You don't say. Funny, seems like I've been saying that for a while now, and you can do it fine on the stock crank. However, that's not what the EMS does, as there's no way it can do that.

No, like 8000rpm rev limit.

But 7000rpm would be a great start (and no one's argued that we can't get there...we've argued over what's *necessarily* needed to make power up top, to move the peak to 7k (or more) ).

And we know what the EMS does...allows fine control of timing and fuel. Which ain't that bad to begin with, and has shown to produce 10rwhp or less once "optimized"...on motors with many supporting mods...so you won't see those gains on a stock KA motor.

- Brian

[keepingthe240]

If you want to raise your rpm, you'll want to use a longer conecting rod. Using a longer rod also increases your v/e. Thats how they were able to make a 298hp n/a! I've got 4 more ways to bump up the ponies that have yet to be mentioned on nico. But not today!

[hannibal]

FACT: A race-tuned NA KA can make over 200whp.

SO why is it so hard to believe that someone can build a 200+whp KA? I think the debate is over what's streetable and/or worth the price.

If a $10000? race motor can make that power, I bet I can do the same thing with the same money. But it wont be a daily driver.And a $10000 KAT setup would make 2x or 3x the power. So its not very cost effective.

With that being said, I believe sideshow could reach 200whp, but not on a reasonable (cost effective) budget.

[keepingthe240]

With that being said, I believe sideshow could reach 200whp, but not on a reasonable (cost effective) budget.

b/s. I can build a cost effective 200whp n/a. If i explained it, everyone would say......well da! or you cheater!(everyone would also say how cost effective it is after i explained it in detail) BUT IT DOES HAVE A DOWN SIDE. So.i won't say a thing. It's not n2o folks. The dry sump listed above would add at least 5 hp and the electric w/p would add 10hp at most. None of those parts would be included in my 200whp n/a ka.

[deviousKA]

Quote »Here's so specs.lets start at the w/ the block shot-pinged and cryo hardened,  ka24de front oil pump galleys bypassed, all galleys opened .010" except cylinder wash downs ,bored over .20, 2 Cross pins installed on all crank bearings, Four bolt main cap, stock shot pinged and cryo hardened main cap, Milled top end to receive factory head gasket, ( the gasket sits just inside of the block with .032" recess)Modified stock oil pan with a E style custom blue printed high flow oil pump, on a dry sump system, hand milled rolled crank thats been destroked, JE custom pistons w/ Valve notches and offset wrist pin, aluminum rods H style, Custom chain and gears by Superior bearing,hand milled smaller intake 3 angle, liquid filled, coated valves, high-rev dual springs titanium keepers,Too much polishing, and some porting, Smaller seats. 47cc combustion camber 14.3 compression. My magic touch cams (the only thing I did on the motor,) Magneto Direct distro. electric water pump, custom tuned Multi port intake,(harmonically balanced to match) harmonically tuned  header. NPGplus coolant W/ under sized aluminum radiator, Injectors you can shower under. KA24DE's stand alone engine management system (that is always plugged in to the think pad).stock bearings (that only last about 10 hours), linked to a modified titanium input gears trans thanks to Kevin Pertil. W/ one beautiful ortho. crank pulley,Running on 105 octane leaded gas w/ 5% methanol and 10% nitro. no noshp measured of trans. trying to find strong LSD. I'm getting sick of CUSTOM and MODIFIED. takes to long to get parts.

I'll get pics Soon. And upload dyno charts she can move faster but the Power doesn't get much better. on the second set of bearings she went 9,000 with only 216hp. But it pushed a valve after about 26sec.(need to make a iron head...and I don't think those liquid filled valves can stand the speed) Torque sucks but thats not what I wanted.I sure we can build a better head for torque, but I just want to prove that the KA can move just as fast as the SR...But I guess you could argue that there ain't much of the OG KA left  Just block and head...Maybe not even head.More R&D to come... If I don't punch a hole in the block first."[/quote]Someone has some good ideas, as well as a good imagination. This engine does not exist, although I do have to say the person is rather sharp.

Does anyone realize just how many 200+hp NA ka's there are (whp included)? These type of posts pop up so much, usually ending no where.

Its best to have 200whp before you argue about how to make 200whp. If there was some decent in-depth discussion about the processes and requirements I would lend you guys a lot more info than i do now.

BTW. The KA will be seen in two other classes of sanctioned racing in the near future (next season). Opening up continuous possibilities on this platform (market). Needless to say development will continue.


Modified by deviousKA at 5:02 AM 11/18/2004

[InsanityInc]

Quote »Show me a KA dyno where they "found" 30rwhp...not a B16, not a turbo motor...an N/A KA24DE.

I won't hold my breathe.[/quote]http://nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=70948

The dyno was originally posted on the AEM EMS forums.

Though, to be fair, the car with the EMS also had an AEM intake, though it did gain 37, and not 30.

Quote »Yeah, but JWT seems to have "optimized" that map...a little over 10 degrees of timing advance and high-12, low-13 A/Fs.

More timing is a waste, and the A/F cannot be tuned much more...where are they finding the gains?[/quote]JWT's still runs rich, by quite a bit. A/F can be tuned far better than it is. Also, it's not about just advancing timing, it's finding the exact right timing/fuek at every RPM/load to produce the best effects. The thing has an msrp of 2500 bucks for a reason (though you can get it for about 1700).

[HaveBlue]

The post by ( haveblue) was some joke. The motor had a drysump and an electric water pump and it made 216hp. It doesn't say if it was @ the wheels though.

Rmiller.....nope! You'll never get 200whp with just what you have listed. I'd give it 200 @ the flywheel at best.

First of all "hp measured of trans." is in that post just to clear things up.Second, I happen to believe the original poster about his motor. You saying that it can't be done (with no examples, personal experience) certainly does not make a credible argument against his claims (no offense).

Someone has some good ideas, as well as a good imagination. This engine does not exist, although I do have to say the person is rather sharp.

Thats what I thought at first, but in the context of the original discussion it was not brought up to toot his own horn or anything.I happen to believe the guy but i understand "Extraordinaryclaims require extraordinary evidence," as the saying goes, so I will see if i can get the guy to send some pics and/or a dyno chart.

My post was just to add to the discussion, mostly to show that it can be/has been done, but certainly not cost effectively and not in a steerable version. Its always funny to me that people yell and scream "impossible!" whenever someone posts an idea or an example on ways to do this kind of thing. I always keep in mind that for every one of us who plays with our cars and motors and posts on the internet there are probably 5 backwoods or urban grease monkeys that don't know how to type but can squeeze every last hp out of a motor.

[deviousKA]

I guess i should rephrase my comment, this engine is probably together, putting out around 216crank hp, but not with that complete list of mods posted. Only a picture of the bottom end and front cover would prove. I say at least 2-4 items are 100% bogus. That said, sounds like a normal ka builder that should be posting on this board.

[toptechracing]

After I read that same spec sheet 5 times I have to think somebody is reading a little to much tuner mag or actually has built this thing to the tun of about 30K for all the custom work.

You are not gonna get 200+ HP on pump gas. I am getting 225 out of the race engine 12:1 stock rods lightened factory crank. Modified HS header my custom exhaust. JW ECU with a custom map tilton 7.25 double disk clutch and flywheel setup. This is not hard to achieve. at normal losses through the transmission and diff you are look at 185whp. The car is fun to drive and engines last all season. You can get very close to 300hp out of one of these but you are gonna spend some money and do some serious work.

[SMoKeM240]

do u think im close to 200crank hp? click my website below to see mods

[Nismo_Freak]

If you want to raise your rpm, you'll want to use a longer conecting rod. Using a longer rod also increases your v/e. Thats how they were able to make a 298hp n/a! I've got 4 more ways to bump up the ponies that have yet to be mentioned on nico. But not today!

Yeah a longer rod will make more top end power, but your valve timing has to adjust to make the most of it which makes adjustable cam gears just that more important. You also might have to retard some of the timing on the top end which can facilitate a loss of cylinder pressure on pump gas. The header design for a longer rod engine will also be different (larger primaries, etc.). The factory intake manifold CERTAINLY has no concession for a long rod motor, but a good larger sized plenum paired with a set of conical stacks should net a solid gain, especially when pulse tuned to the moment of intake valve opening.

I'm assuming you would do this by machining the piston and a custom rod? That would help maintain high lift valve clearance. This would help to eliminate some of the rod and bearing failures on the KA as well by reducing the torsional load on the rods, and resulting bearings.

The only issue I see is the horrendous amounts of piston speed generated by the KA's 96mm stroke. I personally think that engine operation above the 7200rpm mark (~4500 fps) on a stock cast piston is asking for failure. Obviously a lighter forged piston paired with a lighter rod could operate slightly higher in the rpm band, possibly 7800rpm. I don't think the forged internals will buy much in the way of RPM limit due to the squared properties of internal forces.

At 7800 rpm you would only need to produce 135 lb. ft. of torque to create 200 hp. I don't think this is too far out of the question on the KA, given a proper reworking.

Some mods I'd do (if I had a ton of money):

- Chamber rework (reduction of chamber CC's, fluid dynamics rework)- Steep angle fuel injected, long stack ITB setup with 38mm TB's- Stepped large primary long tube header- Enlarged, skimmed valves- KA20DE Knife-Edged, Machined Smaller Crank Journals on Crank (rehardened)- Custom Ultra-Light Rods to adapt to Journals and new Rod Length- Coated/Machined 10.5:1 CR 90mm Pistons (removal of 2nd ring, pin slid up for longer rod)

2.1L long rod KA w/ ITB's = ... and I think it's worth about 240rwhp

Just off the top of my head ... I'd run the following cams:

268 duration - 0.415 lift intake - 110 LSA (adv. 3 deg.)268 duration - 0.425 lift exhaust - 115 LSA (rtd. 1 deg.)

[InsanityInc]

You are not gonna get 200+ HP on pump gas.

You can't honestly believe that? I've seen KA24DEs with nothing but a few bolt ons making 160+whp. The stock compression ratio is 9.5:1 and the stock power peak is 1400 rpms below redline, not to mention there are plenty of gains to be made in other places. If you think you couldn't drum up 30 whp out of all of that, I'm calling you a nutcase. Especially if you were saying you aren't going to get 200+ bhp.

[toptechracing]

My mistake in part. Your not gonna get 200whp on pump gas.

Mr. insanity you should try making a point without calling somebody names or trying to make yourself out to be smarter than them.

[InsanityInc]

I still say you're crazy. You can get 160+whp without even touching the engine.

[toptechracing]

yeah OK dude then you go do that. Exactly how many engines haev you built in the last 2 years?

[Nismo_Freak]

I still say you're crazy. You can get 160+whp without even touching the engine.

No offense but another 40rwhp might be harder than you think, it's hard to say without actually doing it.

It's not impossible, don't get me wrong.

[:: orion ::]

The dyno was originally posted on the AEM EMS forums...had an AEM intake, though it did gain 37, and not 30.

HHHmmmm....I see marketing hype, not actual, REPEATABLE numbers.

I won't say it's 100% false, but until I see gains like that on another 240SX with an EMS, I don't consider that credible (partially for the reasons below).

Typically, the KA makes maybe ~125-130rwhp, and ~135-145rwtq.

Here we have 125rwhp, but only 120rwtq...WTF? Doesn't even look like a KA. Not saying it isn't an S14 strapped to the dyno, but that IS NOT a typical KA torque curve/peak...

Looks like they messed with base timing (or something...???) to get lower base numbers...that kinda stuff only happens when they need to be able to make outlandish claims to sell a product.

It may all be well and good, and if that's the case...I'll eat my words. I can admit I'm wrong if I'm proved to be wrong...but something smells fishy about those claims.

Someone needs to run an EMS on a stock-ish KA to see where they can end up...I'd love for it to be as easy as AEM claims it is!

Anyway...like the "intake manifold" discussions we've had, it's all speculation until someone comes back with hard evidence one way or the other.

- Brian