So you want to buy a Skyline in the US....

[SamuraiSam]

I've done poking around the site, and come across a lot of unfortunate misinformation regarding Kaizo. I can see I'll have to make some pretty detailed posts- namely addressing a few people that are still seeing Kaizo unibodies as disassembled motor vehicle parts. I'll be back tonight





I am going to make all of the "Can't reassemble disassembled parts" guys pull out your hair .

I am a new face around here, but if any of you visit other forums, you will have seen me posting on a few other GT-R forums like FreshAlloy, Skylines Downunder, gtr.co.uk, GTR Canada- since about 2005 (I don't want you to get the idea that I'm a kaizo employee or something like that).
Modified by SamuraiSam at 3:06 AM 7/2/2008

[Vandrel]

I am going to make all of the "Can't reassemble disassembled parts" guys pull out your hair .

Modified by SamuraiSam at 3:06 AM 7/2/2008

Sounds good, and welcome. So do you have a R34 or a 32? Your sig shows a R32 so I'm just wondering.

[JValen]

Wow this forum is huge and chocked full of good stuff. this is what I call good reading. thanks!

(SKYLINE)s

[AZhitman]

I've done poking around the site, and come across a lot of unfortunate misinformation regarding Kaizo. I can see I'll have to make some pretty detailed posts- namely addressing a few people that are still seeing Kaizo unibodies as disassembled motor vehicle parts.

Welcome board, Sam.

While you may be able to dispute the "disassembly / reassembly" guys, the one you can't get around is the portion that says for a car to be titled as they're recommending, the car can never have been offered for mass-production.

Skylines were, so therefore they're ineligible.

Kaizo has no responsibility beyond the selling of the rolling chassis, and that's fine... but let's be very clear that their customers need to fully understand that they're not getting a Federally-legal vehicle.

I double-checked with NHTSA long before you posted, when Kaizo first started presenting their "solution".

[SamuraiSam]

So my point is, that a Kaizo Unibody was never a car offered for mass production. Kaizo is licensed in the US, hence their being able to obtain 17 digit VIN's before the chassis is delivered to the customer.

So, they tell you to take their chassis, and construct a kit car out of it, out of a Brand new chassis. And when they have built the car, to title it special construction, as a kit car, which is actually is.

Of course the customer does not end up with a bond-released NHTSA approved vehicle that conforms to all FMVSS, but that is not at all the type of car that they are selling, they are selling a "legal" kit car, as opposed to an "illegal" kit car that violates the clean air act, and is not comprised of formally disassembled parts.

Who did you check with at the NHTSA?

Kaizo performs enough modifications to the chassis to make it "Not a Nissan", in the same way that Ruf or Gemballa does not sell modified Porsches, they sell Ruf or Gemballa brand vehicles. That is why a Kaizo chassis was never offered for mass production.

[SamuraiSam]

Sounds good, and welcome. So do you have a R34 or a 32? Your sig shows a R32 so I'm just wondering.

The R32 is owned by one of my best friends, ex- room mate, etc. It is a MotoRex vehicle, one of that 35 or so, it sat at MotoRex for about 2 years while they fell a part, and he went down and took it and "Had it Crushed" until NHTSA decided what they were going to do (over another year in which he could not drive the car except with 3 day trip permits). He posted on page 2 or 3 of this thread under the username icsbnr32gtr and put a picture I took of his car on there

I often drive the car just to the left, the black sil-eighty (USDM S13 with various swapped body parts), rarely the GT-R, sometimes a Geo Metro.

[SamuraiSam]

OK Azhitman - You know that R33 that Clint Lindsay himself of the DOT and Erik Parker of the BCBP speak of in every article and every report about the importation of Nissan Skylines? The one he quotes the VIN# as an example of? That's my car. So try again. And it all started bc I contacted them myself.

Clint Lindsay is not DOT, he is head of the OMVC at NHTSA. And what articles are you talking about?

[Gold Digger]

So my point is, that a Kaizo Unibody was never a car offered for mass production. Kaizo is licensed in the US, hence their being able to obtain 17 digit VIN's before the chassis is delivered to the customer.

So, they tell you to take their chassis, and construct a kit car out of it, out of a Brand new chassis. And when they have built the car, to title it special construction, as a kit car, which is actually is.

Of course the customer does not end up with a bond-released NHTSA approved vehicle that conforms to all FMVSS, but that is not at all the type of car that they are selling, they are selling a "legal" kit car, as opposed to an "illegal" kit car that violates the clean air act, and is not comprised of formally disassembled parts.

Who did you check with at the NHTSA?

Kaizo performs enough modifications to the chassis to make it "Not a Nissan", in the same way that Ruf or Gemballa does not sell modified Porsches, they sell Ruf or Gemballa brand vehicles. That is why a Kaizo chassis was never offered for mass production.

OK...let's break out "Kaizo for Dummies, 101" and clear a few things up.

1. None of the parts on these Kaizo cars come from a Nissan Skyline?2. They are constructing their own bodies, chassis, suspensions, interiors, etc. Where do those nifty little instrument clusters, the LCD display, the GT-R steering wheel, etc come from? Cause in my opinion, those seem to have come from "disassembled" cars, only to be reassembled into a Kaizo.3. They don't sell them with the RB26DETT, but that's the engine most people are going to put into them, right? How is that possible to have that engine even legal, when there is no way to smog it because of no OBD II compatibility?

If you or anyone from Kaizo can come here and give us a straight, no bull**** answer, and it proves to be a legitimate way, then I'm all ears. But untill that happes, I just can't believe that these cars are 100% leagal to be registered and driven.

I may not be grasping the whole situation, because no one from Kaizo, nor it's customers can give us a straight answer.

[AZhitman]

Of course the customer does not end up with a bond-released NHTSA approved vehicle that conforms to all FMVSS, but that is not at all the type of car that they are selling, they are selling a "legal" kit car, as opposed to an "illegal" kit car that violates the clean air act, and is not comprised of formally disassembled parts.

My point exactly.

And when you have difficulty registering said vehicle, which IS comprised of parts manufactured by Nissan, will they be there? No.

Shipping it in as a 'drivetrain delete' rolling chassis / DOT compliant unibody may get you past Customs, but it's a whole different ball game once the car is assembled...

Here - I'm ALL for someone finding a way around the importation restriction, because I think it's a stupid limitation and a waste of governmental resources.

As a newly-manufactured vehicle, which they're purporting to sell, it'll have to comply with all FMVSS in effect for year of manufacture (2008), which is gonna be difficult if not impossible for a car engineered a decade prior.

People keep bringing up RUF and Gemballa. However, they are starting with a car that has NO prohibitions aganist sale in the US. As with Alpina, Saleen, and others.

In addition, in order to have a valid VIN, a manufacturer HAS to install a NEW engine. A used engine is not legal. Check with CARB. If it doesn't have an engine on delivery, it is not a vehicle, therefore no VIN.

Again - I'm all for it. I just feel like it's incumbent on us to exhaust EVERY possibility for failure, since we're talking about someone spending $40,000 or more for a car.

[SamuraiSam]

OK...let's break out Answers to "Kaizo for Dummies, 101" and clear a few things up.

1. None of the parts on these Kaizo cars come from a Nissan Skyline?Where do the parts on a Ruf CTR 2 come from?2. They are constructing their own bodies, chassis, suspensions, interiors, etc. Where do those nifty little instrument clusters, the LCD display, the GT-R steering wheel, etc come from? Cause in my opinion, those seem to have come from "disassembled" cars, only to be reassembled into a Kaizo.Where does Ruf obtain their bodies, chassis, suspension, interiors? The vehicles are legally Kaizo vehicles, the same way a Ruf is legally a Ruf. They have already passed every government hurdle needed to sell a vehicle as a manufacturer as, obviously, vehicles are issued with Kaizo legally listed as the MFG (please see picture evidence posted above.)3. They don't sell them with the RB26DETT, but that's the engine most people are going to put into them, right? How is that possible to have that engine even legal, when there is no way to smog it because of no OBD II compatibility?What OBD-II engine is installed into a 1996+ Factory Five Roadster Kit Car? What engine OBD-II engine is installed into a 1996+ Noble M12 Kit Car?The RB26DETT has a certificate of conformity, per Sean Morris.

If you or anyone from Kaizo can come here and give us a straight, no bull**** answer, and it proves to be a legitimate way, then I'm all ears. But untill that happes, I just can't believe that these cars are 100% leagal to be registered and driven.

I may not be grasping the whole situation, because no one from Kaizo, nor it's customers can give us a straight answer.

[SamuraiSam]

My point exactly.

And when you have difficulty registering said vehicle, which IS comprised of parts manufactured by Nissan, will they be there? No. Correct, however, J-Spec, I would hope, would be there.

Shipping it in as a 'drivetrain delete' rolling chassis / DOT compliant unibody may get you past Customs, but it's a whole different ball game once the car is assembled...

Here - I'm ALL for someone finding a way around the importation restriction, because I think it's a stupid limitation and a waste of governmental resources.

As a newly-manufactured vehicle, which they're purporting to sell, it'll have to comply with all FMVSS in effect for year of manufacture (2008), which is gonna be difficult if not impossible for a car engineered a decade prior.They aren't trying to sell a newly manufactured vehicle. Let me dig up some information on other drivetrain-delete Cobra kit cars and see what their FMVSS requirements are. It will take a few days due to work schedule.

People keep bringing up RUF and Gemballa. However, they are starting with a car that has NO prohibitions aganist sale in the US. As with Alpina, Saleen, and others.I don't think this matters as there is no prohibition against Kaizo. Again we are needlessly bringing up Nissan. Nobody is selling a Nissan. I think on equal footing to RUF you can bring up any kit car body manufacturer. What we should be looking at legality wise are Factory Five kit cars or Lone Star State kit cars and seeing what besides the MSO is needed.

In addition, in order to have a valid VIN, a manufacturer HAS to install a NEW engine. A used engine is not legal. Check with CARB. If it doesn't have an engine on delivery, it is not a vehicle, therefore no VIN.Do you have a link to this? It would make life easy. If not, I can dig. I just hate reading CFRs.

Again - I'm all for it. I just feel like it's incumbent on us to exhaust EVERY possibility for failure, since we're talking about someone spending $40,000 or more for a car. Agreed. I have some of your questions as well. I would like to buy a Kaizo S15. I don't want to buy a GT-R until I can afford to do things well right off the bat. I am too spoiled with Marc's GT2530 powered R32, so I would have to mod immediately, and I won't have the money to do it all properly for many years.

Modified by SamuraiSam at 10:39 PM 7/3/2008
Modified by SamuraiSam at 10:43 PM 7/3/2008

[AZhitman]

They aren't trying to sell a newly manufactured vehicle. Let me dig up some information on other drivetrain-delete Cobra kit cars and see what their FMVSS requirements are. It will take a few days due to work schedule.

Do you have a link to this? It would make life easy. If not, I can dig. I just hate reading CFRs.

Yes, they are. By definition, it'll be a new (2008) car. As such, it has to comply with FVMSS. The others do because they're new engineering and design, not tired outdated technology.

Yeah. Let me scrounge it back up. I was doing this on my laptop earlier and saved the link on the desktop... I'm a doof.

[SamuraiSam]

I also am trying to see if they are a drivetrain-delete vehicle? There might be some technicality in there. As you can see they have VIN stamps on their tags, so where are the VINs coming from? I have read that states issue VINs on specially constructed vehicles... more questions.

[MostH8D]

they are drive train delete vehicles. it says so on the badge.

Sam is correct. and Laurel is correct at the same time.

the reason this car is not offered for mass production is it comes with a MSO/MCO. its like the cars birth certificate. FWIW you need to contact kaizo directly and get the skinny. daryl will chat it up with you all day about this. he knows. i bought one from him. they are not cheap. its not for everyone. IMO it meets the intent of EPA kit car laws.

instead of debating it amongst non experts, call the expert. http://www.kaizoindustries.com

[MostH8D]

email to me from daryl.

It's crazy. I feel bad for all those guys who purchased JDM Nissan Skylines. It's likely nothing will happen to them, but that old saying "the threat is worse than the act" kinda applies! From what I hear, the R32 that was seized in TX and approximately 15 other cars, were vehicles imported by a particular person that HS/Customs knows had lied on the import documents claiming them to be parts, but in reality were complete cars. Apparently 4 of his cars were already seized at the port in Los Angeles about three months ago, which is what prompted the investigation on this guy. Now, they know what the VIN's are on the other cars that he had previously imported and they are looking for them.

I've been reading the UK GTR forums and see there are plenty of guys out there with opinions on what's legal and what's not. The one guy in particular is pretty opinionated on the Kit Car theme and states that it's not legal. I've actually got into discussions with this person before on other forums and he seems to stand down now, when coming right out and commenting on the legality of Kaizo, but still suggests that its not right. He and others have indicated that having all Nissan components installed in your kit car, is what makes it illegal, but if you simply read the law at its face value, it's pretty clear. The example the law gives of circumvention indicates those who import the bodies, then offer the drive-train components either before or after the sale!

How's this scenario sound:

Say you happen to stumble onto my shop someday and inside sits a Kaizo R34 GTR body sitting there, with no drive-train components (literally only a body, with an interior in it), and it was offered for sale. Lets then say after a lengthy discussion on how the Kaizo process works you and I agree on a price and you purchase it. In addition to getting an MSO (Manufacturers Statement of Origin) from Kaizo Japan, you also receive documentation showing its importation records and history.

Next you make arrangements to have the Kaizo Body towed to your home, where you start the search for a drive-train. Lets say you then locate a Nissan RB26 drive-train on ebay, that you purchase and either install yourself into the body or have it professionally installed.

Next you contact your States DMV office and get the car titled and registered in your state as either a specially constructed car or kit car, just like all the Nobles or Cobra kits out there.

This scenario is usually how a Kaizo Body is acquired. How does this scenario in any way appear to attempt to circumvent the importation laws or EPA laws? You didn't import the body yourself. You didn't fly to Japan and pick out the car yourself. You didn't arrange to locate the original drive-train, then import it yourself. The body came to be here in the USA lawfully. You have proof of legal importation and proof of purchase for parts and construction.

The people who protest the Kit car process not being legal, are likely forming their opinion based on all those Nissan Skylines that have come to be here questionably. I can appreciate their doubt, but get frustrated in their eagerness to scare the crap out of everyone without giving more thought to this process and how the law is actually written.

Your vehicle, like my own is titled and branded as a Kaizo Kit, with the Kaizo 17 character VIN. The labels on the car state that it was re-manufactured and sold as a rolling uni-body. If any governmental agency wants to question the legality of how the cars came to be here, then we have a well documented history of that, along with the law itself on our side!

On a side note, my White GTT Widebody car is getting a new drive-train installed next week! The RB25 is actually a temporary drive-train. I'm having a new LS2 GM 425HP V-8 installed, along with a 6 speed gearbox out of 2006 Pontiac GTO. This should certainly shut those naysayers up who have any doubts about Kaizo's being Kit cars! I plan on promoting the crap out of the car once it's completed, so it will be interesting to see what the forum chat will say about Kaizo then!

Talk to you soon Rich, see you on Jspec!

Daryl

[MostH8D]

another......

Hi Rich,

I totally understand and can appreciate your concern. In the last few days we have received numerous calls from people who have purchased JDM Skylines here in the US and want help in turning their cars into Kaizo's. It's been exhausting having to tell these guys there's nothing we can do for them.

The important thing you need to remember about the car you purchased, is this!

1. The body went through a re-manufacturing process in Japan and was shipped into the USA lawfully under the provision of an "assemblage of motor vehicle equipment items"! Prior to leaving Japan, the body received modifications as well as a 17 character VIN and other badging indicating that it was a re-manufactured Uni-Body kit. There was no drive-train components in the car body as well as no headlights, taillights, fluids or seat-belts. All the other items in the assemblage (such as Glazing and Brake components were confirmed to be complaint to FMVSS standards prior to shipping.

2. Once the body arrived here to the USA and duties were paid on it, it was then placed for sale where it was purchased by Just Driven, the company that works with Universal Picture Cars. Just Driven located and purchased a drive-train to install in the car, along with all the other components needed to make the car available for the Studios to use the vehicle for the Fast and Furious 4 Movie. Once they were finished with the vehicle, you purchased it.

3. I have in my possession, copies of the original bill of lading and customs clearance papers indicating the car body being imported into the USA lawfully. Also in my possession is the original invoice received from Quick Garage Inc. (Company in Japan who owns Kaizo Japan) to Just Driven. I also have copies of receipts for the drive-train, along with copies of the receipts for the drive-train installation as well.

I know the language of the law is somewhat confusing, but please know, that I only offer for sale just car bodies and that you were fortunate to buy one from a company that had already completed one. I normally would never have anything to do with a sale of a completed Kaizo car, it just worked out that way, since I'm working so closely with the studio and knew they were finished with the use of the car you purchased. So, please try to understand that I only offer for sale Kit bodies and not complete cars! I don't want someone getting the wrong idea that I'm in the business of selling completed cars, because that's not what we do.

These other cars you're hearing about, appear to be involved in a larger investigation. It sounds to me like the person or persons who imported them, may have misrepresented them at time of importation and likely did not import them as parts. Don't forget that these cars were registered and titled as Nissan Skylines utilizing their original JDM VIN's, which is part of the problem.

Your car and the other Kaizo cars that are titled are titled as Kaizo's and branded as "kits" or "assembled from parts". Which is the proper way to title them.

Here's some important information that may help clear things up:

EPA states the following:

"The production, sale and importation of automotive bodies alone (i.e., no chassis, engine or transmission) are not regulated by EPA since such units are not considered "motor vehicles" under the Clean Air Act. EPA form 3520-1 is not required for imported automotive bodies. A motor vehicle from which the engine has been removed is still a motor vehicle and is not considered a body."

"The production, sale and importation of vehicle parts (engines, transmissions, chassis, vehicle bodies, etc.) are not regulated by EPA because parts are not considered motor vehicles under the Clean Air Act. However if the parts constitute a disassembled vehicle or an approximate disassembled vehicle, the combination is considered a motor vehicle under the Clean Air Act. Any attempt to use this policy to circumvent the Clean Air Act or the Imports regulations will be considered a violation of the Clean Air Act and will be strictly enforced.

NHTSA states the following:

"10. Importing a disassembled vehicle. A disassembled vehicle that is shipped without an engine and transmission is treated for importation purposes not as a motor vehicle, but instead as an assemblage of motor vehicle equipment items. Such an assemblage can lawfully be imported into the U.S., provided any equipment included in the assemblage that is subject to FMVSS, but was not originally manufactured to comply with that FMVSS or was not so certified by its original manufacturer, is removed from the assemblage prior to entry into the U.S. Equipment items that are subject to the FMVSS include tires, rims, brake hoses, brake fluid, seat belt assemblies, glazing materials, and lamps, reflective devices, and associated equipment."

See more here:http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/...55977h ... kitcar.htm

Rich, I hope this helps! Feel free to call if you have more questions.

Talk to you soon,

Daryl

[MostH8D]

hope that helps a little too.

also the Ruf, Gemballa and dont forget Noble arguments are very valid when considering this.

[Gold Digger]

MostH8D, THANK YOU for at least taking the time to post those e-mails up.

Ok, so what I am gathering is, if someone buys a rolling chassis from Kaizo, it's fully leagal, as the car was imported sans drive-train and the non conforming parts were changed to parts that did conform to the FMVSS standards, which allows the car to be brought in legally.

Now, once that car is sold, it is technically out of Kaizo's hands, as they should have disclosed all the information.

Then, after the buyer locates an engine and drive-train, say an RB26 for arguments sake, won't there be any problems? Or are kit cars smog exempt?

Again, I thank you for the information. If I have time, I'd like to call Daryl and chat with him and get the skinny on all of this, cause if it's true, this could be the way for you U.S. guys to finally get a legal "Skyline".

[the converted]

Yes, they are. By definition, it'll be a new (2008) car. As such, it has to comply with FVMSS. The others do because they're new engineering and design, not tired outdated technology.

Yeah. Let me scrounge it back up. I was doing this on my laptop earlier and saved the link on the desktop... I'm a doof.

Greg, kit cars don't have to meet any safety standards other than the headlights brakes and other basic stuff like that. I've been doing a lot of research for the car I'm going to be building and somehow this seems to fit into exactly the same category as the companies that sell pre-made frames.

As long as these shells have a US VIN and the titles don't say skyline I think a loop hole has been found, at least for now.

[MostH8D]

as far as smog goes, they are not exempt...but you can apply for exemtions since they are non conforming vehicles. even california has exemptions available to applicants....500 each year i believe.

[the converted]

Well I guess I'm doing different stuff and going throught NH so it ends up getting registered as a 1950 something car even though its "new"

[MostH8D]

what does that even mean?

[AZhitman]

Great info. Seems like Daryl is taking all of this questioning in stride - We're only looking out for our members.

OK, so what of the part of the law that states a kit car cannot have ever been mass-produced? Do we just chalk that one up to semantics?

Other than that, I think we're looking btter and better!

[AZhitman]

Why does one say "drivetrain delete" and the other list an engine?

Can't be a kit car with a Kaizo VIN if it's designating the engine, can it? What if I bought that car and dropped an LS3 in it?

[MostH8D]

hitman...

daryl is in the process of taking akaizo r34 GTT and droping an ls1 or 2 in it. it looks just like my r34 gtr but has a full widebody kit on it. he's going to use it to promote the kaizo kit cars like crazy when its done to show that yu can drop anything you want in it. email him for more info or hit up his website he or casey can tell you everything you want to know.

[SamuraiSam]

[Evo_bill]

Call me out if I’m wrong, but I’m sure that people that own these kazio, nissanie, what have you, unibody or assembled from parts cars are all breaking the law at one point or another. Registering a skyline as assembled from parts is blatantly illegal, but a Kazio unibody isn’t when its presented as so. I don’t have any quarrel with this. The part that I do have a problem with is that Kazio tell you straight up that…”here is our uni-body, you can now add whatever drive-train to it for a 100% legal kazio kit car”.

As soon as you add a gtr drive-train to the kazio kit unibody (or any body for that matter) your breaking the law, regardless of emission regulations.It shouldn’t matter if your adding the GTR drive-train to a mustang, you would be still breaking the law I’m sure.

So, how do you claim your 100% if you’re running your car with a motor set that was never approved by the epa? I’m sure this is some type of grey area still.

[MostH8D]

you're wrong.

what you are confusing is epa standards and the dot stuff.

i know in the epa portion it talks about circumventing the kit car regs by importing as parts and reassembling but what you are confusing is epa standards.

i'd bet that half the cars on this forum dont meet epa standards and they were built here. no catalytic conveter....fail...

see? you can get waivers for epa, even in cali or you can just live in a state where they dont smog.

they may have minced their words a little if that is a direct quote from the site, but i think they are implying that its legal to own in this fashion because you are not circumventing kit car laws.

if you change your air intake and there is not CARB for it its illegal. if you dont have OBDII in most states that smog, its illegal.

its apples and oranges that you are looking at...2 diffferent things if that makes any sense.

in effect they are saying you can buy this car and put in anything you want to power it and make it go and the feds cant take this away from you because it was an illegal import.

[Evo_bill]

kazio kit is a legal dot chassis.... I don’t have issues with this...

GTR drive-train, is an unregulated drive-train that was never approved by the epa... there for is illegal to run in all 50 states... it would be illegally ran even if you hooked it up to a lawnmower.

I understand that most people break epa laws without even knowing they did... but that’s not my point....

GTR drive-train was never approved by epa to be ran in the US period.

besides the ones that were approved i.e. motorex.

Now, if you ran a epa approved motor like a LS1 in a kazio chassis... you'll have a 100% legal car, this is not that same as running a GTR drive-train in a kazio chassis.
Modified by Evo_bill at 9:26 AM 7/22/2008

[greatgonzer]

I agree with this 100% and I think that Kasio has said the same thing. They are just selling you a unibody with a vin number just like the Cobra kits are sold with vin numbers. Its up to you to put into it a legal motor. If I bought this kit you'd bet that an LS1 or LS2 would be going in. If for nothing else, to have a legal car. It would be dumb to put in an RB26TT. You'd just be asking for trouble...