Religious Terrorism in the US

[AZhitman]

Howie's still looking over his shoulder, hoping his mother doesn't decide on a REALLY late-term abortion.

[RiceRocketGal]

The anti abortion people are strongly against premarital sex and having sex at young ages. They strongly believe that sex should be saved until after the couple marries at a responsible age. They are fully for teaching strict abstinence.

They find teen sex to be abhorrent.

I do not necessarily believe the above points, I'm just trying to educate you as to what conservatives sometimes think and why they think that way.

I think you need to clarify your statements and stop lumping all "anti-abortion people" in with the groups that scream "whore" outside of abortion clinics. Most anti-abortion people are women and most don't picket anything. We protest with votes. We are not zealots. I live with my fiance (premarital sex all the time..) I have no problem with birth control. I think it's the best invention on the planet. In fact.. I have often thought it should be mandatory until the age of 18.

Most anti-abortion people are not much different than me. We aren't anti-choice. We are pro-responsible choices. Most of us wouldn't have a problem with abortion within the first month of pregnancy. As soon as a woman finds out she is pregnant she should have a limit of 3 weeks to "choose". After that... too bad.

[audtatious]

Why do you assume that the person was an anti-war activist?

At the time it was an assumption. There have been other instances of violence against soldiers in the past regardless so the point still stands. Now we know it seems to be simply a case of terrorism on our soil, since it's simply two people in the military who were shot it's no big deal.........to some......

[telcoman]

The anti abortion people are strongly against premarital sex and having sex at young ages. They strongly believe that sex should be saved until after the couple marries at a responsible age. They are fully for teaching strict abstinence.

They find teen sex to be abhorrent.

I do not necessarily believe the above points, I'm just trying to educate you as to what conservatives sometimes think and why they think that way.

I have no problem with strict christian conservatives. They are certainly free to practice their beliefs.

I just don't think they have the right to impose those beliefs on others that disagree.

When they attempt to lobby change in government, the constitution, laws, etc. they should no longer enjoy tax exempt status and pay taxes like everyone else.

The anti abortion people are strongly against premarital sex and having sex at young ages. They strongly believe that sex should be saved until after the couple marries at a responsible age. They are fully for teaching strict abstinence.

That really works right Bristol Palin

[audtatious]

I mean come on. I am new here... I don't know you... but posting the Daily Kos as a reference for evidence in a debate?... You lost about 500 cool points already with me.

Maybe I should start posting the Star or National Enquirer as resource material

[audtatious]

That really works right Bristol Palin

Dude, you so RULE!!!! Ignore your own party and what they do and pick apart one stupid kid as your whole point.

[telcoman]

I think you need to clarify your statements and stop lumping all "anti-abortion people" in with the groups that scream "whore" outside of abortion clinics. Most anti-abortion people are women and most don't picket anything. We protest with votes. We are not zealots. I live with my fiance (premarital sex all the time..) I have no problem with birth control. I think it's the best invention on the planet. In fact.. I have often thought it should be mandatory until the age of 18.

Most anti-abortion people are not much different than me. We aren't anti-choice. We are pro-responsible choices. Most of us wouldn't have a problem with abortion within the first month of pregnancy. As soon as a woman finds out she is pregnant she should have a limit of 3 weeks to "choose". After that... too bad.

So what about when your OBGYN informs you in the third trimester of a severe problem in giving birth. You go for a second opinion and the second OBGYN confirms.

Now what?

Do you want to raise a severely handicapped child? Can you and your family afford it?

Perhaps you will go ahead and give birth, but what gives you and others the right to impose a forced birth of a child on others that may come to a different decision.

The law as it stands now allows couples and their doctors to make an informed decision.

Which is the way it should be.

No one forces anyone to have an abortion that does not believe in having one.

Telcoman

[Kohster]

At the time it was an assumption. There have been other instances of violence against soldiers in the past regardless so the point still stands. Now we know it seems to be simply a case of terrorism on our soil, since it's simply two people in the military who were shot it's no big deal.........to some......

Well who is saying it's no big deal that two soldiers were shot? Nobody is saying that so don't make another faulty assumption.

[telcoman]

Dude, you so RULE!!!! Ignore your own party and what they do and pick apart one stupid kid as your whole point.

ONE STUPID KID?

Give me a break.

The US has the highest rate of teen pregnancy in the industrialized world

http://www.livestrong.com/arti...s-usa/

http://www.womenshealthchannel...shtml

[bobotech]

ONE STUPID KID?

Give me a break.

The US has the highest rate of teen pregnancy in the industrialized world

I imagine that a LARGE proportion of those teen preggos are not children of conservatives who instill beliefs of abstinence and not having sexual relations until they are married.

[bobotech]

I think you need to clarify your statements and stop lumping all "anti-abortion people" in with the groups that scream "whore" outside of abortion clinics. Most anti-abortion people are women and most don't picket anything. We protest with votes. We are not zealots. I live with my fiance (premarital sex all the time..) I have no problem with birth control. I think it's the best invention on the planet. In fact.. I have often thought it should be mandatory until the age of 18.

Most anti-abortion people are not much different than me. We aren't anti-choice. We are pro-responsible choices. Most of us wouldn't have a problem with abortion within the first month of pregnancy. As soon as a woman finds out she is pregnant she should have a limit of 3 weeks to "choose". After that... too bad.

I edited my post, you are correct that I should have clarified it.

I like your posts.

[audtatious]

ONE STUPID KID?

Give me a break.

The US has the highest rate of teen pregnancy in the industrialized world

http://www.livestrong.com/arti...s-usa/

http://www.womenshealthchannel...shtml

Then why don't you go after them as a whole instead of picking one out of the patch......I'd say do it in a bi-partisan manner but we all know from you that that will never happen.

At least with THIS teen having a kid there will be no burden on our medical nor social services departments to support it.

[ishkabibble]

Ignore your own party and what they do and pick apart one stupid kid as your whole point.

He learned it from watching you!

[ishkabibble]

Still waiting on those odds, Greg...

[bobotech]

He learned it from watching you!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Elr5K2Vuo

[ishkabibble]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-Elr5K2Vuo

I will remember that ad always...

[bigbadberry3]

4- Why are so many on the right so opposed to birth control?

The Pope/church.

Is this a moral or religious thing? Yes the two are very different entities.
Modified by bigbadberry3 at 8:25 PM 6/2/2009

[audtatious]

He learned it from watching you!

I'm all for equal opportunity. My opinion is not asked by you nor a few others, it's simply assumed. How wrong you are....

[dusred]

Wow. Very interesting thread. RRG you rock!

You've just posted what has been pinned up in my head for months!

Howie, after reading your posts I'm just about to crap myself laughing. You are completely ignorant. Period.

You sit there and throw around how abortions are if the child is going to be handicapped ect than the abortion is done, but I've got a secret for you. . . HANDICAPPED PEOPLE HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS YOU DO!

about 1% of abortions are done because of health issues but the rest are birth control so STOP THROWING THAT BU115H1T AROUND!

[bobotech]

Can someone please find me some statistics that show just how many late term abortions that Tiller performed per year?

Finding stats like late term abortions performed in the US per year are really hard to find.

[joe603]

I think we need a set of "ground rules" in regards to abortion.

For example:

Pre-fetal abortion should be allowed (up to the 8th week). There has to be a firm date to decide when an unborn child has rights.

Next, there are many methods to discover if there are problems with the fetus, ie. blood tests and amniocentesis. Some conditions are fatal such as Trisomy 18. This could be a special circumstance to allow abortion after the 8th week.

We as a nation are good at making laws and regulations. Abortion should be no different. If politicians would just make a stand, even if it means losing voters, we would be better off.

I don't blame religion, I blame people who interpret religious beliefs for their personal agenda.

[RiceRocketGal]

I was going to edit my post but I''ll add my additional comments here.

Obviously no one is going to change anyones mind on abortion here but perhaps you can explain to me why:

I have already addressed this crap above. If you read anything other than the DK and your own posts... you would know that... but I will humor you and do it again.

Quote »1- Those that are so opposed are not agreeing to take unwanted children and paying the associated costs?[/quote]Many have offered to do so... including myself. A coworker of mine was pregnant with a baby she was sure would be black and wanted to abort it (because her spouse was white). She asked to borrow money from me to do so and I refused but told her I would be more than happy to adopt the baby. She laughed and said "why would I let it live if I don't want it?". To which I replied "because you would get to prove you are a decent human being who, despite whoring around on your husband... does not believe in killing a child to CYA.

She had the baby. Lucky for her it was white. Doesn't mean it was her husbands... but ya.

Quote »2- Why are so many that are opposed to abortion not working to reduce abortions and teen pregnancy?[/quote]Um Duh! Those opposed to abortion ARE working to reduce abortions... to ZERO! Hello! We are also working to reduce teen pregnancy! I have been working with troubled teens for 15 years... sex education... molestation survivors in group therapy... teen sex offender therapy... WHY do you assume none of us are doing anything but talking? LIBERALS are the talkers, hun... conservatives ACT. That would be why the incident of teen pregnancy is much higher in predominantly dem neighborhoods than in conservative neighborhoods.

Quote »3- Why are so many on the right opposed to sex education in the public schools?[/quote]Most are not. For the ones who are... It's not the education most of them are opposed to. It is the Schools. Public school officials can't keep their teachers from banging the students... do you really think they should be charged with sex education? They don't believe sex-ed should come with a hands-on training course and be taught by people who can't keep their own hands off the kids private parts. That is not to say all teachers do it... but there are enough that do.. that this is a valid concern.

Quote »4- Why are so many on the right so opposed to birth control?[/quote]

Most are not. I am not but I believe those who are believe that giving a child birth control is giving them a license to have premarital sex without consequence. Remove consequences from actions... and the actions become the accepted norm just as premarital sex was once considered taboo but now is the accepted norm.

Quote »The right has been going about this issue in all the wrong ways.

Prior to Roe vs Wade woman were dying from botched abortions with coat hangers. Having the procedure done in a hospital or clinic saves lives.[/quote]Strawman ALERT! This isn't about the average abortion. This is about LATE TERM abortions. Those pose FAR GREATER HEALTH RISK to women than childbirth ever did. In a late term abortion a breech birth is FORCED. They pull the baby out FEET FIRST. In order to do this they must adjust the position of the baby.. a live.. kicking... moving baby... inside the mother's womb and then grab it's legs and pull it all of it out except the head... while it is again still alive.

Quote »The reason I used the dailykos link is it already had the O'Reilly rant that I was looking for.

I understand, the truth hurts sometimes

Telcoman[/quote]Soooo you use the DK because you wanted to reference Bill freaking O? Um.. do you think that makes you look BETTER or somehow makes your argument stronger? Bill O and the DK go back and forth because they are both more suited for Jerry Springer than anything that could be considered real news. If either of them are a source of info for YOU... you are just as screwed up as they are.

The truth is all I need. If the truth hurts you.. change what is true about yourself. Don't expect the rest of the world to tiptoe around your sensitivities so you don't ever have to face the reality of who and what you are.

I have some questions for YOU.

Are you for or against aborting healthy babies in the 9th month of gestation where the mother's life is not in danger?

What have YOU done to address the issue of teen pregnancy other than read liberal rags and post inaccurate info on the internet?

Are you aware that the overwhelming majority of abortions are performed not on teenagers... but on white women between the ages of 20 and 24 (college age) who are perfectly able to use BC if they want to?

If you are aware of that stat, why do you keep trying to make this about teen pregnancy?

Why are people who are pro-abortion so dead set against any regulatory measure that would require a woman to MAKE UP HER DAMN MIND about whether or not she wants the baby BEFORE the baby becomes able to live independent of the mother?

I don't expect answers. I expect more lumping all of us into the same group with the abortion clinic protesters and parroting of the same crap you have been saying all along with absolutely no acknowledgment that those things have been addressed.

Surprise me.

[AZhitman]

RRG, you just made my Christmas card list.

[AZhitman]

By the way -

Howie (telco) is terrified of anything faith-based.

In fact, he can't possibly comprehend that anyone who is even moderatley pro-life could be anything BUT a raving religious lunatic.

Some of us are NOT overtly religious, but still believe in the sanctity of life.

It's a good thing his mom didn't know he'd be mentally deficient - He might have been a D&C candidate as well.

[RiceRocketGal]

Maybe I should start posting the Star or National Enquirer as resource material

Ya or I could link Hannity or Limbaugh as sources.

Of course.. that would require listening to Hannity and Limbaugh as much as he reads the Kos... and I am just not as willing as he is to make myself stupid for the sake of internet debate.

[RiceRocketGal]

By the way -

Howie (telco) is terrified of anything faith-based.

In fact, he can't possibly comprehend that anyone who is even moderatley pro-life could be anything BUT a raving religious lunatic.

Some of us are NOT overtly religious, but still believe in the sanctity of life.

It's a good thing his mom didn't know he'd be mentally deficient - He might have been a D&C candidate as well.

Wanna get strange looks from people on both sides of the aisle?

Tell them you are a pro-life, conservative... Atheist.

It works every time.

People don't get that it is possible to have solid morals without having "the good book" shoved up your sphincter.

[bigbadberry3]

That would be why the incident of teen pregnancy is much higher in predominantly dem neighborhoods than in conservative neighborhoods.

^^ lawlz at bristol palin.

Most are not. For the ones who are... It's not the education most of them are opposed to. It is the Schools. Public school officials can't keep their teachers from banging the students... do you really think they should be charged with sex education? They don't believe sex-ed should come with a hands-on training course and be taught by people who can't keep their own hands off the kids private parts. That is not to say all teachers do it... but there are enough that do.. that this is a valid concern.

^^^^ Definitely not rampant! Cases where this occurs are blown up with the media that's why they APPEAR to be so prominent. It's also not purely sex education teachers doing this either. I think an argument could be made about priests' rate of sexual abuse compared to that of public school teachers'.

[bigbadberry3]

I don't blame religion, I blame people who interpret religious beliefs for their personal agenda.

[RiceRocketGal]

So what about when your OBGYN informs you in the third trimester of a severe problem in giving birth. You go for a second opinion and the second OBGYN confirms.

Now what?

Do you want to raise a severely handicapped child? Can you and your family afford it?

Perhaps you will go ahead and give birth, but what gives you and others the right to impose a forced birth of a child on others that may come to a different decision.

The law as it stands now allows couples and their doctors to make an informed decision.

Which is the way it should be.

No one forces anyone to have an abortion that does not believe in having one.

Telcoman

My little brother is a severely handicapped child. Do you believe in eugenics? Do you know what the word eugenics means? Are you a supporter of eugenics... because you are beginning to sound like one to me.

Do you know who Margaret Sanger was?

I will quote her for you... then allow YOU to have the fun of finding out who she was...

On blacks, immigrants and indigents:"Eugenic sterilization is an urgent need ... We must prevent multiplication of this bad stock."

Margaret Sanger, April 1933 Birth Control Review. "...human weeds,' 'reckless breeders,' 'spawning... human beings who never should have been born."

On the purpose of birth control:"Birth control must lead ultimately to a cleaner race."Margaret Sanger. Woman, Morality, and Birth Control. New York: New York Publishing Company, 1922. Page 12.

On the rights of the handicapped and mentally ill, and racial minorities:"More children from the fit, less from the unfit -- that is the chief aim of birth control." Birth Control Review, May 1919, p. 12

On marital sex:"The marriage bed is the most degenerating influence in the social order," Sanger said. (p. 23)

"The most merciful thing that a large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it." Margaret Sanger, Women and the New Race (Eugenics Publ. Co., 1920, 1923)

"Blacks, soldiers, and Jews are a menace to the race." Margaret Sanger, (1922)

"The campaign for birth control is not merely of eugenic value, but is practically identical with the final aims of eugenics."Margaret Sanger. "The Eugenic Value of Birth Control Propaganda." Birth Control Review, October 1921, page 5.

"We are paying for, and even submitting to, the dictates of an ever-increasing, unceasingly spawning class of human beings who never should have been born at all."Margaret Sanger. The Pivot of Civilization, 1922. Chapter on "The Cruelty of Charity," pages 116, 122, and 189. Swarthmore College Library edition.

"Give dysgenic groups [people with 'bad genes'] in our population their choice of segregation or sterilization."Margaret Sanger, April 1932 Birth Control Review.

OK.. Spoiler alert...

"As we celebrate the 100th birthday of Margaret Sanger, our outrageous and our courageous leader, we will probably find a number of areas in which we may find more about Margaret Sanger than we thought we wanted to know..."Faye Wattleton, Past-president of Planned Parenthood

Yes... she was the founder of Planned Parenthood. You know... that bastion of WOMEN'S RIGHTS and savior of the PRO-CHOICE movement...?

Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood, proposed the American Baby Code that states, "No woman shall have the legal right to bear a child… without a permit for parenthood".

The American Baby Code... ya... So much for a woman's RIGHT TO CHOOSE!

[RiceRocketGal]

^^^^ Definitely not rampant! Cases where this occurs are blown up with the media that's why they APPEAR to be so prominent. It's also not purely sex education teachers doing this either. I think an argument could be made about priests' rate of sexual abuse compared to that of public school teachers'.

Actually.. it is more predominant than portrayed in the media. See.. the media only reports it when it is done by an attractive young woman... so they can use it to sell sex. Most often it is committed by male teachers to female students.. and is far more common than most parents care to think. When i was in high school... in a small school with a graduating class of roughly 30 to 40 kids per year... there were at any given time no fewer than three teachers involved in sexually inappropriate conduct / relationships with students. Two were men in their 30s. One was a woman in her 40s. Everyone knew it. No one cared. One of the men married a student the day after graduation... because she was pregnant.

The notion that those on the news are the only ones is as preposterous as the notion that the transsexuals on Maury are the only ones.