Religious Terrorism in the US

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telcoman
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Cold_Zero wrote:
Howie,I know you are just reacting to me and not to what I said. You might want to go back and re-read what I said. No where did I say any of the things that you are accusing.

With that said, I had no clue that late term abortions were even legal in this country. Obviously from what others have posted, I guess I have been out of the loop so to speak.

I would love to stay and debate with you, but we have some heavy thunderstorms coming and I need to leave work to get home to my girls.bud
I really wasn't aware either of such late term abortions but my feeling is that it is between the woman, her OBGYN, husband and none of my or anyone else's business. If it is legal end of story

Drive safely & get home safe.

This issue won't be settled tonight

Nice to hear your wife is working on you.

Perhaps she will even get you a subscription for fathers day to the New York Times?

Telcoman


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telcoman wrote:Why are those that are so opposed not willing to take and raise the deformed, mentally challenged, and other unwanted babies? These should also not become a burden upon tax payers.
Are you crazy? Do you know what the process is like, how long it takes and how much money it takes to adopt a child? And yet people still do it and yes for all the types of babies that are listed above. It happens everyday, it just suits your agenda to think that there is no one to take these babies. Might as well just throw them out, eh?

My wife works with a couple that waited 5 long years to adopt a baby. They were unable to have children (for what ever reason) and decided to adopt. They were able to take Karissa off her mother’s hands, since she (the mom) could not support her. Last time I saw her (at Disney on Ice) Karissa is doing quite well by her new parents.

Quote »Dr Tiller was recently found not guilty of all charges against him.

NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO KILL A DOCTOR THAT IS PERFORMING A LEGAL PROCEDURE![/quote]Howie,Legal procedures or not, no one has the right to take the Law into their own hands. And no one was advocating that the person that killed Dr. Tiller was doing so, rightly.

I think what other people were saying is that Dr. Tiller stretched the law probably as far has he could to legally justify, illegal procedures.

Quote »The WSJ used to be a decent paper until Murdoch took it over.It is almost like Fox news. Mostly unfair and unbalanced

The NYT is still the nations newspaper and is read all over the world.

It is one of the few newspapers left that still has good investigative reporters.[/quote]Other than its embedded reporters in Afghanistan churning out detailed reports of what our troops are going through, that paper is pretty much worthless. You want a real investigative news paper? Read Der Spiegel. Auf Deustch or in English, it doesn't matter. You will through the NYT in the garbage.

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Just as a side note Howie. My wife's Pro (Teachers) Union sign demanding a contract, got Repoman and I free parking at the State Fair Grounds. We went down there to the Indy 1500 Gun and Knife Show and ended up getting free parking with the Union Discount!

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dusred wrote:Maybe now he can face all the children he killed before they had the chance to come here.
Or maybe not. Depends on what your perception of the afterlife (or lack thereof) is.
AZhitman wrote:Let's not go there.

The statistical likelihood of pregnancy by rape is so infinitessimally small, yet trumpeted by so many pro-choice activists, it's criminal.

Back on topic.
What are the odds? Apparently you know, and I am curious.
Cold_Zero wrote:where is your evidence that this was perpetrated by a religious zealot?
Scott Roeder was reportedly "very religious in an Old Testament, eye-for-an-eye way". He also contributed articles to "Prayer and Action News".

Aren't hardcore pro-lifers usually religious zealots? I've never seen an atheist holding up a giant poster of an aborted fetus around the National Mall. The protesters are pretty much always bussed there by churches.

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ishkabibble wrote:Aren't hardcore pro-lifers usually religious zealots?
Sure and arent most Genocidal, Megalomaniac National Socialist/Communist Dictators like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot; atheists? Do we really want to go down this road of generalizations?

Quote »I've never seen an atheist holding up a giant poster of an aborted fetus around the National Mall. The protesters are pretty much always bussed there by churches.[/quote]Try going to the Indianapolis 500. They are there too.

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Inflammatory generalizations are made on this forum all of the time. Suddenly, they are an issue? Or is it just this specific one?

Hitler was a Christian, FWIW.

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yeah hitler wasnt an atheist

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ishkabibble wrote:Inflammatory generalizations are made on this forum all of the time. Suddenly, they are an issue? Or is it just this specific one?

Hitler was a Christian, FWIW.
Another generalization. But guess while we are just doling out generalizations, I am sure the criteria that you used to determine that Hitler was a Christian would render you a Christian as well. Hitler was openly hostile to Christianity and tolerated it in the Third Reich when it suited his political interests. Calling him a Christian is a bit of a stretch. His 'religion' struck me as similar to that of the Caesars of the Roman Empire. A one of worshiping the cult of personality and a bizarre mixture of Nordic paganism.

But I stand (actually sit) corrected. Lumping him into that generalization was wrong. But you all get the point.

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telcoman wrote:
No one is forcing anyone opposed to abortion to have one.

But why are those opposed sticking their nose in something that does not concern them?

Why are those that are so opposed not willing to take and raise the deformed, mentally challenged, and other unwanted babies? These should also not become a burden upon tax payers.

Dr Tiller was recently found not guilty of all charges against him.

NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO KILL A DOCTOR THAT IS PERFORMING A LEGAL PROCEDURE!

This is terrorism and those that support this are domestic terrorists

The WSJ used to be a decent paper until Murdoch took it over.It is almost like Fox news. Mostly unfair and unbalanced

The NYT is still the nations newspaper and is read all over the world.

It is one of the few newspapers left that still has good investigative reporters.

Just my $.02

Telcoman
Are you serious? Do you truly believe that the only reason people should care whether or not a child is murdered.. is if they think they may be personally forced to murder a child?

No one is forcing me to molest children either... but I care whether or not children are molested. No one is forcing me to beat people to death for being gay... but I care whether or not people are beaten to death for being gay.

Your "mind your own business" mentality is the exact type of mentality that allowed hundreds of thousands of Jewish men, women, and children to be slaughtered.

To you.. I would say... no one is forcing you to shoot anyone in front of a church. Why do you care if someone else does it?

As to the notion of taking and raising the children...

You have totally ignored the FACT that MOST of the late-term abortions this man performed were of PERFECTLY HEALTHY BABIES... as late as A WEEK BEFORE THEY WERE TO BE BORN. In your mind you have convinced yourself that no Dr would murder infants for money.

You cling to that fantasy in the face of undeniable proof... THE Dr.s OWN WORDS... because letting that argument go would either mean that

1. you have to admit you don't care if perfectly healthy babies are murdered in the last weeks of gestation... and that makes YOU a monster as well...

or

2. you will defend something you truly do not agree with in order to keep from having to admit you got into this debate having NO CLUE what in the heck you were talking about.

There is a 5 year waiting list to adopt a baby in this country. Most childless couples would adopt 2 or 3 given the opportunity.

The only people these babies are "unwanted" by are their mothers... but in America that is all it takes. A child who is unwanted by it's parents has no rights in this nation. Andrea Yates is PROOF of that. Had she drowned 5 of her NEIGHBORS children she would be on death row... but because they were her own children... Katie Couric started a defense fund for her and she was found NOT GUILTY of the act of drowning her children by reason of insanity. She spent 1 year in a high security mental hospital before she was moved to where she is now... an adult playground... where 3 years after sitting in court for murdering all five of her children.... she sits waiting for release.

"Yates filled the family bathtub and drowned her three youngest sons, Luke, Paul and John. She placed their bodies next to each other on a bed, placing an arm of each boy over another. The infant, Mary, had been in the bathroom in her bassinet, crying. She became the fourth victim. When her eldest, Noah, entered the room, Mary's body was still in the bathtub; after asking his mother what was wrong with Mary, he attempted to flee. Yates caught him and drowned him next to Mary. Yates took Mary into the other room, laid her next to the first three, and covered all four with a sheet. Noah was left in the tub.

Yates called 9-1-1 and calmly asked for a police officer to come, asking for an ambulance only after it was suggested by the operator. She then called her husband at work, ordering him to come home. Russell pressed her until she told him she had hurt the children. When Russell rushed home, he found police and medical personnel had already surrounded his house.

Russell was kept waiting outside for five hours as the medical examiner processed the children's bodies.

Yates received the officers at the door, telling them she had just killed her children. She led them to the master bedroom where they found the four youngest children covered with a sheet, lying face up on the bed, eyes still open. Noah was discovered by another officer face down in the bathtub. Yates calmly explained what she had done, and offered no resistance to the officers as she was led away."

But ya... those were unwanted children.. so who gives a crap. Right?

In Brazil they allow law enforcement officers to murder homeless street kids without legal consequence. They consider it to be a service to the country. I guess you have no problem with that either.

Seriously... these babies were about to be born. It was no more physical or mental strain on the mother to have the baby than it was to have the abortion. These babies were killed for being unloved by their mothers. Is that the kind of nation YOU want to live in?


Modified by RiceRocketGal at 7:13 AM 6/2/2009

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RiceRocketGal wrote:
2. you will defend something you truly do not agree with in order to keep from having to admit you got into this debate having NO CLUE what in the heck you were talking about.
AND there's the rub...

Howie never has any idea what he's saying. He suffers from severe diarrhea of the mouth and quite often just randomly groups words together. This is just his way of starting an argument by using inflammatory terms and pointing the finger at a huge group of people without having any actual information other then what he reads/digs up in some POS Liberal paper.

He will never actually defend himself, he'll just deflect or ignore and keep on posting. This is SOP for Telcoman. Don't let him get to you

WD

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Cold_Zero wrote:
Sure and arent most Genocidal, Megalomaniac National Socialist/Communist Dictators like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot; atheists? Do we really want to go down this road of generalizations?
Yes... we do.

Atheists and agnostics make up about 10 to 15% of the general population in this nation... but less than 0.4% of the prison population. When you single out violent offenders the rate drops to much less than that.

None of the men you listed were raised in the USA where freedom of.. or from .. religion is a right. They lived in nations that had a national religion. Russia would not allow people into it's military who did not swear to their national religion. To this day most European countries have a national religion. America does not. Thanks to our forefathers... we never will.


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Cold_Zero wrote:
Another generalization. But guess while we are just doling out generalizations, I am sure the criteria that you used to determine that Hitler was a Christian would render you a Christian as well. Hitler was openly hostile to Christianity and tolerated it in the Third Reich when it suited his political interests. Calling him a Christian is a bit of a stretch. His 'religion' struck me as similar to that of the Caesars of the Roman Empire. A one of worshiping the cult of personality and a bizarre mixture of Nordic paganism.

But I stand (actually sit) corrected. Lumping him into that generalization was wrong. But you all get the point.
The notion that Hitler was Atheist comes from those who say he didn't attend mass after he left home. By those standards the vast majority of America is Atheist because most don't attend church.

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audtatious wrote:The person or people who killed the doctor is just as bad as the probable anti-war folks that shot the two recruiters today (killing one thus far) in Little Rock. I assume a number of far left extremist support the shooting, are you going to call your fellow wingnut Dems out?
Howie, as normal, you fail again. Maybe you should propose the above question to your daily kos buddies for an inflammatory answer.


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RiceRocketGal wrote:
The notion that Hitler was Atheist comes from those who say he didn't attend mass after he left home. By those standards the vast majority of America is Atheist because most don't attend church.
I think that we established that Hitler was not an atheist and I corrected myself. Not sure what we are arguing here. My attempt was not to make all Atheists look bad but to provide a high simplified example of how we can not just generalize groups of people from a few people’s actions for polemic purposes. You are reading too much into my example.

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My bad.

Back on topic.

This is the thing as far as I am concerned.. When we as a society decide that the lives of the innocent are only valuable when those people are personally loved by the rest of society... we set a horrible standard in that at any time any of us is subject to unjust and unprovoked ostracizing, at which point we lose our human right to life and can be killed.

As it stands, a perfectly healthy child capable of existing independently of and with NO assistance or protection from it's mother can have it's death pre-planned, paid for, and carried out in a medical clinic with full knowledge of the state and federal government if it's mother doesn't want it. If that same child's mother does want it and someone else intentionally causes the death of that child they can be charged with capital murder. If they accidentally cause the death of that child they can be charged with criminally negligent homicide.

Human rights should begin with being human... not with being wanted.

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RiceRocketGal wrote:Human rights should begin with being human... not with being wanted.
Well said...

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Agreed 100%. Great post, RRG (and welcome aboard, since I hadn't said so before).

Let's turn it around: If the child's mother was found to be "unwanted" (no one cares about her), then can we "abort her?

Why not?

Oh, I see. She's got rights. See the problem?

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What do you mean by unwanted? Unwanted by who?

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Anyone.

The justification is, "the baby was unwanted". OK, so what if the mother is "unwanted"?

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audtatious wrote:The person or people who killed the doctor is just as bad as the probable anti-war folks that shot the two recruiters today (killing one thus far) in Little Rock. I assume a number of far left extremist support the shooting, are you going to call your fellow wingnut Dems out?
Why do you assume that the person was an anti-war activist?

I looked up the story and came up with this:

http://www.katv.com/news/stories/0609/627959.html

"At a briefing Monday afternoon, Little Rock police chief Stuart Thomas identified the suspect as Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad, 23, of Little Rock. Thomas says Muhammad also goes by the name Carlos Bledsoe."

"At the Monday-afternoon briefing, investigators believe Muhammad acted alone, and likely carried "political and religious motives." Thomas said the gunman targeted the military but was not believed to be part of a broader scheme."


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AZhitman wrote:Anyone.

The justification is, "the baby was unwanted". OK, so what if the mother is "unwanted"?
Are you talking about "octo-mom?" lol

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RiceRocketGal wrote:
Are you serious? Do you truly believe that the only reason people should care whether or not a child is murdered.. is if they think they may be personally forced to murder a child?

No one is forcing me to molest children either... but I care whether or not children are molested. No one is forcing me to beat people to death for being gay... but I care whether or not people are beaten to death for being gay.

Your "mind your own business" mentality is the exact type of mentality that allowed hundreds of thousands of Jewish men, women, and children to be slaughtered.

To you.. I would say... no one is forcing you to shoot anyone in front of a church. Why do you care if someone else does it?

As to the notion of taking and raising the children...

You have totally ignored the FACT that MOST of the late-term abortions this man performed were of PERFECTLY HEALTHY BABIES... as late as A WEEK BEFORE THEY WERE TO BE BORN. In your mind you have convinced yourself that no Dr would murder infants for money.

You cling to that fantasy in the face of undeniable proof... THE Dr.s OWN WORDS... because letting that argument go would either mean that

1. you have to admit you don't care if perfectly healthy babies are murdered in the last weeks of gestation... and that makes YOU a monster as well...

or

2. you will defend something you truly do not agree with in order to keep from having to admit you got into this debate having NO CLUE what in the heck you were talking about.

There is a 5 year waiting list to adopt a baby in this country. Most childless couples would adopt 2 or 3 given the opportunity.

The only people these babies are "unwanted" by are their mothers... but in America that is all it takes. A child who is unwanted by it's parents has no rights in this nation. Andrea Yates is PROOF of that. Had she drowned 5 of her NEIGHBORS children she would be on death row... but because they were her own children... Katie Couric started a defense fund for her and she was found NOT GUILTY of the act of drowning her children by reason of insanity. She spent 1 year in a high security mental hospital before she was moved to where she is now... an adult playground... where 3 years after sitting in court for murdering all five of her children.... she sits waiting for release.

"Yates filled the family bathtub and drowned her three youngest sons, Luke, Paul and John. She placed their bodies next to each other on a bed, placing an arm of each boy over another. The infant, Mary, had been in the bathroom in her bassinet, crying. She became the fourth victim. When her eldest, Noah, entered the room, Mary's body was still in the bathtub; after asking his mother what was wrong with Mary, he attempted to flee. Yates caught him and drowned him next to Mary. Yates took Mary into the other room, laid her next to the first three, and covered all four with a sheet. Noah was left in the tub.

Yates called 9-1-1 and calmly asked for a police officer to come, asking for an ambulance only after it was suggested by the operator. She then called her husband at work, ordering him to come home. Russell pressed her until she told him she had hurt the children. When Russell rushed home, he found police and medical personnel had already surrounded his house.

Russell was kept waiting outside for five hours as the medical examiner processed the children's bodies.

Yates received the officers at the door, telling them she had just killed her children. She led them to the master bedroom where they found the four youngest children covered with a sheet, lying face up on the bed, eyes still open. Noah was discovered by another officer face down in the bathtub. Yates calmly explained what she had done, and offered no resistance to the officers as she was led away."

But ya... those were unwanted children.. so who gives a crap. Right?

In Brazil they allow law enforcement officers to murder homeless street kids without legal consequence. They consider it to be a service to the country. I guess you have no problem with that either.

Seriously... these babies were about to be born. It was no more physical or mental strain on the mother to have the baby than it was to have the abortion. These babies were killed for being unloved by their mothers. Is that the kind of nation YOU want to live in?

Modified by RiceRocketGal at 7:13 AM 6/2/2009
RiceRocketGal

You are watching too much Fox news and worse yet believing that crap

http://www.dailykostv.com/w/001808/

Keep in mind that Dr Tiller was doing legal abortions. SCOTUS Roe vs Wade

If you are unhappy with the law go work to change it.

I and millions of other Americans had to accept the SCOTUS decision Bush vs Gore. A majority voted for Gore but the ruling was accepted.

It took eight years for many more Americans to realize the mistake of electing Bush and the BS of the right.

They had their chance and FAILED.

This is why we have the rule of law in this country.

O Reilly is guilty of promoting domestic terrorism and people like you believe that crap.

If you don't like it

go leave

No one should be forced to bear an unwanted child.

Telcoman


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More lefty blather.

Fox News is "crap", yet the dailykos is "gospel".

Don't knock the source unless you're going to point out an inaccuracy.

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telcoman wrote:
You are watching too much of Fox news

http://www.dailykostv.com/w/001808/

You

RiceRocketGal

You are watching too much Fox news and worse yet believing that crap

http://www.dailykostv.com/w/001808/

Keep in mind that Dr Tiller was doing legal abortions. SCOTUS Roe vs Wade

If you are unhappy with the law go work to change it.

I and millions of other Americans had to accept the SCOTUS decision Bush vs Gore. A majority voted for Gore but the ruling was accepted.

It took eight years for many more Americans to realize the mistake of electing Bush and the BS of the right.

They had their chance and FAILED.

This is why we have the rule of law in this country.

O Reilly is guilty of promoting domestic terrorism and people like you believe that crap.

If you don't like it

go leave

No one should be forced to bear an unwanted child.

Telcoman
I'm sorry... *rubs eyes*.. did you just tell me I am watching too much Fox News... and then TWICE post links to the Daily fricking Kos? I mean really? The Daily Kos..? Really?

OK.. first of all... I don't watch Faux News... NOR do I read the Daily Kos, the Huffington post, the NY Times, etc. FFS... have we as a nation become so dumb that we rush to the nearest extreme news rag / website we can find to get our information? Are we so sensitive that the mere thought of being told ANYTHING other than EXACTLY what we want to believe terrifies us so much that.. for information... we turn only to the people who we already know agree with us?

I mean come on. I am new here... I don't know you... but posting the Daily Kos as a reference for evidence in a debate?... You lost about 500 cool points already with me.

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AZhitman wrote:More lefty blather.

Fox News is "crap", yet the dailykos is "gospel".

Don't knock the source unless you're going to point out an inaccuracy.
I never posted anything from Faux News. He made that statement because he is a Kosaphile and in his mind anyone who disagrees with him must be a Foxomaniac.


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This thread is fun and interesting. Keep it rolling.


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RRG, you GO GRRRL!!!

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RiceRocketGal wrote:
I never posted anything from Faux News. He made that statement because he is a Kosaphile and in his mind anyone who disagrees with him must be a Foxomaniac.
I was going to edit my post but I''ll add my additional comments here.

Obviously no one is going to change anyones mind on abortion here but perhaps you can explain to me why:

1- Those that are so opposed are not agreeing to take unwanted children and paying the associated costs?

2- Why are so many that are opposed to abortion not working to reduce abortions and teen pregnancy?

3- Why are so many on the right opposed to sex education in the public schools?

4- Why are so many on the right so opposed to birth control?

The right has been going about this issue in all the wrong ways.

Prior to Roe vs Wade woman were dying from botched abortions with coat hangers. Having the procedure done in a hospital or clinic saves lives.

The reason I used the dailykos link is it already had the O'Reilly rant that I was looking for.

I understand, the truth hurts sometimes

Telcoman

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telcoman wrote:2- Why are so many that are opposed to abortion not working to reduce abortions and teen pregnancy?
The majority of conservative anti abortion people are strongly against premarital sex and having sex at young ages. They strongly believe that sex should be saved until after the couple marries at a responsible age. They are fully for teaching strict abstinence.

They find teen sex to be abhorrent.
guy from another message board wrote:You missed my point. I don't celebrate tillers death, I just think the world would be a better place without butchers like him, legal or not. The professionalism and little or no physical risk to the pregnant female is a big drawing card for the pro death folks. If there was a real risk of the woman dying or being injured I believe a lot more women would opt to let the child live.
I do not necessarily believe the above points, I'm just trying to educate you as to what conservatives sometimes think and why they think that way.
Modified by bobotech at 4:02 PM 6/2/2009

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I'm gonna start killing people by slitting their throats with Michael Moore DVDs. Then we can ban those. PROBLEM SOLVED M I RITE?


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