okay I cant help myself.
My reasoning stays true for most of the examples I think you can come up with. The example of divine love does not simply mean that you "love" them and that's it. Do you cheat on someone you truly love? Would you rape a person you loved, or lie to them or murder them? Of course not.
The law of love is a convient one in that we cannot do anything awful to anyone we truly love. We can forgive, we can do all kinds of things... but harm? Never.
Homosexuals are doing nothing but loving a person of their same gender. Nobody is hurt in this interchange at all: I find it hard to beleive that an act of love could ever be deemed wrong in the eyes of a God who seems to have placed that value so high, it just doesn't make sense to me.
Reality TV has GONE TO FAR!!!
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AZhitman
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fiznat wrote:Saying you dont like something is one thing, but claiming some sort of cause and effect without having any factual evidence to back it up isnt very cool.
OK - So if Chester th Molester from next door walks out to the bus stop every morning while your kids wait for the bus and pleasures himself (they are his stimulus, of course) in full view of them, you're OK with that?
Any evidence that it's harmful?
I'd propose that masturbatlon is more morally "OK" than homosexuality... So you'd be cool with this scenario?
I spent several years as a counselor (youth, abuse victims, eating disorders and addictions). I carried a caseload of seriously mentally ill (SMI) people, adult sex offenders and felons for years. I've worked in law enforcement for several years. The one thing in common in these people's backgrounds? Certainly there are exceptions, but the over-arching common factor is a morally bankrupt upbringing, devoid of the strict parameters and boundaries on behavior that seperate us from the feces-slinging monkeys at the zoo.
BTW, let's not debate the Bible. You're ill-prepared to enter that ring. However, I'm happy to share what I know if you're interested. You and I are more alike than you think.
I'm sleepy - G'night, all!
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AZhitman
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fiznat wrote:Homosexuals are doing nothing but loving a person of their same gender. Nobody is hurt in this interchange at all: I find it hard to beleive that an act of love could ever be deemed wrong in the eyes of a God who seems to have placed that value so high, it just doesn't make sense to me.
You're getting there - and you're on the right track.
Consider that an adulterer sincerely believes he is hurting no one, and a child molester typically feels (what they percive as) love as well. I'm certainly not comparing the two to consensual homosexual acts, just stretching your rationale to its breaking point.
There's NO question that God loves homosexuals. But keep in mind, God's love is infinite - He loves ALL his creations, evn those who commit depraved, heinous crimes (can you imagine the 9/11 hijackers were actually loved by God?). That's called grace, and it's exactly what you spoke of (very well) earlier. He loves us unconditionally, much like we love our children - but doesn't always approve of our behavior. No matter what our kids do wrong, we still love them enormously - and hope they will change their ways. He has given us free will, but hopes we will follow His way - Every day, he's a patient and good Creator.
I honestly cant say what the actual psychological effects might be on my children, but then again I didn't claim any sort of cause and effect relationship. I simply said that I wasnt so sure that homosexuaity on tv (and in the mall?) doesnt necessairaly have the effect that some people think it does.
These morally bankrupt backgrounds that you say were common, I can see that... but I dont beleive that the common factor could have possibly been early exposure to homosexuals on television. There is a big difference between an absence of basic parental requirements (lets say love, their actual presence, support, etc) and fluctuations within this obviously grey area that we're discussing. If your kid learns about alternative lifestyles in a mature, open, and honest way (haha okay maybe not on FOX), I dont see how that could cause any more problems than an equally sheltered and ignorant upbringing might.
Note that I said the kids should be exposed in an open, honest, and mature manner. It truly is my beleif that kids CAN be strong enough to handle some freak masturbating in front of them, if they understand what is really happening. I beleive that it is important to have the kids prepared for such an event, so that they dont.... well.. so they dont fall into the pattern that you think they might. Now, I'm not saying kids should be reading p0rn outta the cradle, let's be realistic. I'm just saying that knowledge is not necessairly a loss, sometimes. When and how all this education happens, of course, is a matter of opinion. I wont claim to know what is best either-- this is just my thinking on the subject.
And aww comeon what's wrong with discussing the bible? I obviously cant compete with memorised text and all that, but if we're as similar as you say we might be, why not discuss at least the ideals that I wrote about before? I'm really intersted to see what you have to say about that and I took some time to write it, so lemmie pick your brain if I can.
These morally bankrupt backgrounds that you say were common, I can see that... but I dont beleive that the common factor could have possibly been early exposure to homosexuals on television. There is a big difference between an absence of basic parental requirements (lets say love, their actual presence, support, etc) and fluctuations within this obviously grey area that we're discussing. If your kid learns about alternative lifestyles in a mature, open, and honest way (haha okay maybe not on FOX), I dont see how that could cause any more problems than an equally sheltered and ignorant upbringing might.
Note that I said the kids should be exposed in an open, honest, and mature manner. It truly is my beleif that kids CAN be strong enough to handle some freak masturbating in front of them, if they understand what is really happening. I beleive that it is important to have the kids prepared for such an event, so that they dont.... well.. so they dont fall into the pattern that you think they might. Now, I'm not saying kids should be reading p0rn outta the cradle, let's be realistic. I'm just saying that knowledge is not necessairly a loss, sometimes. When and how all this education happens, of course, is a matter of opinion. I wont claim to know what is best either-- this is just my thinking on the subject.
And aww comeon what's wrong with discussing the bible? I obviously cant compete with memorised text and all that, but if we're as similar as you say we might be, why not discuss at least the ideals that I wrote about before? I'm really intersted to see what you have to say about that and I took some time to write it, so lemmie pick your brain if I can.
Good point.AZhitman wrote:Consider that an adulterer sincerely believes he is hurting no one, and a child molester typically feels (what they percive as) love as well. I'm certainly not comparing the two to consensual homosexual acts, just stretching your rationale to its breaking point.
Well, I suppose my only answer can be that in order to love our neighbors correctly, in the best way possible, we have to be knowledgable about the effects of our actions. The person who truly loves, I would imagine, would attempt not only to understand his own love, but how that love might effect others. Actions without knowledge, without understanding are blind ones: like decisions made without any understanding of the choices. If we are talking about true, divine, absolute love, I think it is fair to say that the person who understands this would also devote himself to understanding the very best way that his love should be expressed.
Nobody said that this ideal was something easy. (not like loving your 240, for example
).... I beleive that the child molester who feels like he is "loving" his victim is not truly understanding what love IS. If he did, he might consider the child's fate a bit more, dont you think?Heh sorry this sounds just like Plato, (philosophy is my other major) but you gotta admit he had some pretty damn good ideas.
Quote »He loves us unconditionally, much like we love our children - but doesn't always approve of our behavior. [/quote]And you think we should mirror his approval or dissaproval with our own approvals and dissaprovals? What I said earlier was that these are judgments that are made by God (and him alone). I dont think that we can really understand God's true reasoning behind what he approves of and what he doesnt, therefore we should leave that kind of decision making to him.
And NOW to bed! I swear!
First off i want to say that I dont hate homosexuals. They are very funny depending on the person and sometimes fun to be around. I also would like to say that I agree with Hitman on this one. The Bible states that God disapproves of this behavior, but is willing to forgive any1 of their sins. God may not like it, but is still willing to forgive anyone out of the compassion he has in his heart. We arent supposed to understand how God thinks,but His feelings are clear. Im as far from perfect as any1 and as many God believing people I go along with actions that I know God doesnt accept many times evrey day, but dont think about that when I do these things. In the end I know that when I ask for forgiveness He will give it to me. The same goes for any1 else, homosexual or not, He will forgive them if they ask for His forgiveness. God also gives us the right to believe what ever we want to, if Hitman says that homosexuality is wrong,and I agree,he is only expressing his freedom given to him by God Himself. Every person has this freedom whether God agrees or not. Thats why the world is the way it is today. Im only 17 and Im not nearly as devoted as many of the other children/adults at my church and I could still figure this out. Fiz Im not callin you dumb or anything, but if you are going to give information relating to the Bible try to interpet it a little better than you have been doing. Thats all I have to say for now.
I've got me a smorgasboard of gay friends! But you know what? None of them run around trying to flaunt to the whole world "IM Gay IM GAY IM SO FREAKING GAY! Im special love me! LOOOVE MEEE!"
True and authentic people like to be themselves instead of trying to live up to a stereotype or image. Thats the problem with gays on TV -- almost all of them act flambouyantly gay. None of them are portrayed as typical Americans.
Thats the problem with dopey white kids with backwards caps who think theyre black, or men trying so hard to be fervently gay that they suddenly take on a lisp and acquire a pink wardrobe.
Its as bad as television showing hispanics doing nothing but eating tacos and drinking Corona, or showing black people dressing "ghetto" and speaking in ebonics, and nothing else. Stereotypes are easy to swallow, so content producers cater to them.
Its quite sad.
On the other hand I really like my Q45.
-Jesda
True and authentic people like to be themselves instead of trying to live up to a stereotype or image. Thats the problem with gays on TV -- almost all of them act flambouyantly gay. None of them are portrayed as typical Americans.
Thats the problem with dopey white kids with backwards caps who think theyre black, or men trying so hard to be fervently gay that they suddenly take on a lisp and acquire a pink wardrobe.
Its as bad as television showing hispanics doing nothing but eating tacos and drinking Corona, or showing black people dressing "ghetto" and speaking in ebonics, and nothing else. Stereotypes are easy to swallow, so content producers cater to them.
Its quite sad.
On the other hand I really like my Q45.
-Jesda
AZ, your a DAMN good father.
Toooo much stuff to read on these posts, but i basically agree that reality shows are the Devils spawn. The stuff they do is getting out of hand, and its only a matter of time before we see: Conception of a baby!, Dying old people!, Drug users ODing!, and the best of them all, something a la Running Man. I guess people dont think they have enough in their life to keep them happy, so they become fascinated with other peoples pain, pleasure, crimes, etc. if people spent as much time with their families as they do with Reality tv, we'd all be better people.And im not fully against the gay life. I have family and friends who are gay and they are some of the coolest people i know. im not agreeing with them, but im not telling them they are wrong. its their life, they should be able to live it the way they want.
Jesda,i fully agree with your above post. i cant stand seeing sterotypes being played out sooo much on TV. it gets on my nerves. and you are right about the gay stuff. i have only one friend whos gay and acts very flamboyant, but thats just him.
AZ, hearing your son ask you what a BJ is must be hard. I was alittle taken aback when my little sister told my mom and i that kids were "doing it" down in the park near my house. its tough hearing little kids ask stuff that shouldnt be taught so young. and Tv is to blame for it.
Toooo much stuff to read on these posts, but i basically agree that reality shows are the Devils spawn. The stuff they do is getting out of hand, and its only a matter of time before we see: Conception of a baby!, Dying old people!, Drug users ODing!, and the best of them all, something a la Running Man. I guess people dont think they have enough in their life to keep them happy, so they become fascinated with other peoples pain, pleasure, crimes, etc. if people spent as much time with their families as they do with Reality tv, we'd all be better people.And im not fully against the gay life. I have family and friends who are gay and they are some of the coolest people i know. im not agreeing with them, but im not telling them they are wrong. its their life, they should be able to live it the way they want.
Jesda,i fully agree with your above post. i cant stand seeing sterotypes being played out sooo much on TV. it gets on my nerves. and you are right about the gay stuff. i have only one friend whos gay and acts very flamboyant, but thats just him.
AZ, hearing your son ask you what a BJ is must be hard. I was alittle taken aback when my little sister told my mom and i that kids were "doing it" down in the park near my house. its tough hearing little kids ask stuff that shouldnt be taught so young. and Tv is to blame for it.
jdmfreak03 wrote:Fiz Im not callin you dumb or anything, but if you are going to give information relating to the Bible try to interpet it a little better than you have been doing.
Heh, I'm gonna try real hard to not be sarcastic here, but dont think that you've got it all figured out either. The bible is NOT some static peice of history that we simply take rules out of. It is a much more complicated text that involves thousands of little lessons that are meant to be put together and interpeted. I may not be completely right (I even said this in my first post about the bible), but I feel like I am damn close. Besides, if you're going to criticize my intrepertation, how about picking out specific things that you think are wrong and challenging them? Some broad statement like "you need to interpet it a little better" is just weak man. Show me where I'm wrong.
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MaineExport
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How did I miss this gem of a thread?!!
Oh so many things to say... oh no.... I've gotta go to work.
All I can say for now is; anyone who makes their sexuality an issue or a defining personality characteristic is inherently WRONG.
Tolerance is a funny little thing. Those who feel that "we" who lack a progressive, popular view, seem to feel that we are intolerant of 'deviant' behavior. Yet, who is to say that certain things SHOULD be tolerated, and who is to say that your behavior is more deserving of tolerance than mine?
Do what you feel is right in your heart, and answer to two people... yourself and God. If your conscience is clear than anyone else who tells you otherwise can take a flying leap. BUT... sexuality, no matter what it is, is a private matter between those involved.
Oh so many things to say... oh no.... I've gotta go to work.
All I can say for now is; anyone who makes their sexuality an issue or a defining personality characteristic is inherently WRONG.
Tolerance is a funny little thing. Those who feel that "we" who lack a progressive, popular view, seem to feel that we are intolerant of 'deviant' behavior. Yet, who is to say that certain things SHOULD be tolerated, and who is to say that your behavior is more deserving of tolerance than mine?
Do what you feel is right in your heart, and answer to two people... yourself and God. If your conscience is clear than anyone else who tells you otherwise can take a flying leap. BUT... sexuality, no matter what it is, is a private matter between those involved.
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AZhitman
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WOW.
I am honored to be among some brilliant thinkers... I am not being sarcastic here. So many good points to be considered. I'd encourage anyone thinking of posting in this thread to take the time to carefully read what has been written on the past two pages... These are not topics to be taken lightly, and they are deserving of the consideration of the thought that has been obviously put into them.
Seth, great point about the progressive decline of TV programming into depravity and sensationalism... "Running Man" indeed. It's only a matter of time. Scary that you can witness rampant adultery, non-consensual sex acts, and horrific violence on TV, but advertisers are not allowed to hawk cigarettes... Nice double-standard. It proves that we, as a society, value our physical health over our spiritual and moral well-being.
Fiz, your comment stating kids shouldn't be reading p0rn right outta the cradle is very telling. There's a reason you feel that way, and it's built-in. Your explanations of love and the fact that judgement is not our right are SPOT-ON. There is a difference between judging someone and disapproving of their behavior. Jesus DISAPPROVED of the money-changers in the temple. He expressed it, openly and I believe with much fervor (great scene, BTW). He loved them as much as anyone else, but their behavior was abhorrent to him, and he made it abundantly clear. Intolerance? Yes. There are many other examples...
On a side note, Jesda makes a great point about stereotypes and how damaging they are. Again, we see a lack of basic self-respect, when it's more comfortable to "be someone else" than to be who we are. I prefer the world to see me, not who MTV or Hollywood says I need to be based upon my color / background / socioeconomic status. It's become all about the money. Sell your (and others') souls for 15 minutes of fame and a chunk of cash... sad.
HITMAN sits back, a la' Mr. Burns, and proclaims the above discussion to be *excellent*.
I am honored to be among some brilliant thinkers... I am not being sarcastic here. So many good points to be considered. I'd encourage anyone thinking of posting in this thread to take the time to carefully read what has been written on the past two pages... These are not topics to be taken lightly, and they are deserving of the consideration of the thought that has been obviously put into them.
Seth, great point about the progressive decline of TV programming into depravity and sensationalism... "Running Man" indeed. It's only a matter of time. Scary that you can witness rampant adultery, non-consensual sex acts, and horrific violence on TV, but advertisers are not allowed to hawk cigarettes... Nice double-standard. It proves that we, as a society, value our physical health over our spiritual and moral well-being.
Fiz, your comment stating kids shouldn't be reading p0rn right outta the cradle is very telling. There's a reason you feel that way, and it's built-in. Your explanations of love and the fact that judgement is not our right are SPOT-ON. There is a difference between judging someone and disapproving of their behavior. Jesus DISAPPROVED of the money-changers in the temple. He expressed it, openly and I believe with much fervor (great scene, BTW). He loved them as much as anyone else, but their behavior was abhorrent to him, and he made it abundantly clear. Intolerance? Yes. There are many other examples...
On a side note, Jesda makes a great point about stereotypes and how damaging they are. Again, we see a lack of basic self-respect, when it's more comfortable to "be someone else" than to be who we are. I prefer the world to see me, not who MTV or Hollywood says I need to be based upon my color / background / socioeconomic status. It's become all about the money. Sell your (and others') souls for 15 minutes of fame and a chunk of cash... sad.
HITMAN sits back, a la' Mr. Burns, and proclaims the above discussion to be *excellent*.
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Stoneage_Turbo
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Just about anything
bah i hate any kind of affection , whether its on tv , when im out somewhere , guy on girl ,guy on guy ,girl on girl, i dont care it all should be kept at the privacy of the home
military had a law against this kind of thing when one is in uniform its called PDA or public display of affection
im sure in 30 years two guys kissing wont be as shocking as it is now but its just not common place so i just dont look
i have the freedom to turn my head the other way and to change the channel , i never watch reality tv , i break up my speedchaneel watching with spats of the discovery channel and mitilary history stuff on the history channel , go ahead and say i live under a rock but i like my rock somepeoples real world just sucks to much for me to see ....
military had a law against this kind of thing when one is in uniform its called PDA or public display of affection
im sure in 30 years two guys kissing wont be as shocking as it is now but its just not common place so i just dont look
i have the freedom to turn my head the other way and to change the channel , i never watch reality tv , i break up my speedchaneel watching with spats of the discovery channel and mitilary history stuff on the history channel , go ahead and say i live under a rock but i like my rock somepeoples real world just sucks to much for me to see ....
I can honestly say that this discussion really show the maturity and intelligence of the members of NICO as a whole. I challenge anyone to find as civil and intelligent a thread about such a debated topic on another car forum.
Now, I first will come out (no pun intended) and say that I do not approve of gay people's lifestyles. I am Catholic and have been all my life although this is not the reason for my opinion. I question many things about our Church and am of the disposition to think on my own. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that there is no sin in being gay. Having feelings of love for someone of the same sex is not a sin. The sin lies in the acting out of these feelings sexually. Just as a boyfriend and girlfriend are, by God's law, prohibited from having sex, so is a gay couple.
In God's eyes and in the Bible, he approves of man marrying woman. In Genesis he creates woman for man to have a partner.
I need to stop my direction to explain something first: the most common response to my last paragraph is that "the Bible is PC because homosexuality was taboo at the time" or something to that effect. In all reality 15-20 years ago, homosexuality was more taboo then it was during the Biblical ages. In Greece for example, many men had boy lovers...including Plato.
Back on track, because in God's eyes men and women were meant for each other and healthy sex inside of marriage between the two opposite sexes is OK by God and encourage then all other forms of sex are wrong in His eyes. If I were to have sex with my girlfriend, it would be wrong and would be just as sinful as two men or two women committing sexual acts.
So I guess the point is that gay feelings are not wrong but acting sexually on those feelings IS wrong.
Also, being gay is a choice. The homosexual feelings stem from environmental factors or personal choice. They finished coding of the Human Genome last year and have not been able to pinpoint any biological factors that contribute to homosexuality. You *could* argue that is a chemical balance/imbalance issue but then that would make homosexuality a curable affliction similar too other chemical imbalances such as depression and schizophrenia.
Hitman, I agree that homosexuality is not something I would want my children (if I had any) exposed to at a young age. But this is my same stance if my child were to ask me what sex was or a BJ is. Children, until they reach a certain age, are not able to fathom what is right and wrong when it becomes complicated. A child cannot understand that being gay is okay but is not normal and that, no, mommy and daddy aren't gay, and they were born out of a sexual act that mommy's and daddy's do because they love each other and no, gay people can't have children (biologically) because they cannot have sex because of they way God made men and women.
This is just the start of what you would have to explain to your child when the question arises. You can't just give them a simple answer because it is not a simple issue.
These are all my thoughts for now. I'll be back later. Again, I feel honored to surround myself with the company of such intellectual individuals.
Nick
Now, I first will come out (no pun intended) and say that I do not approve of gay people's lifestyles. I am Catholic and have been all my life although this is not the reason for my opinion. I question many things about our Church and am of the disposition to think on my own. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says that there is no sin in being gay. Having feelings of love for someone of the same sex is not a sin. The sin lies in the acting out of these feelings sexually. Just as a boyfriend and girlfriend are, by God's law, prohibited from having sex, so is a gay couple.
In God's eyes and in the Bible, he approves of man marrying woman. In Genesis he creates woman for man to have a partner.
I need to stop my direction to explain something first: the most common response to my last paragraph is that "the Bible is PC because homosexuality was taboo at the time" or something to that effect. In all reality 15-20 years ago, homosexuality was more taboo then it was during the Biblical ages. In Greece for example, many men had boy lovers...including Plato.
Back on track, because in God's eyes men and women were meant for each other and healthy sex inside of marriage between the two opposite sexes is OK by God and encourage then all other forms of sex are wrong in His eyes. If I were to have sex with my girlfriend, it would be wrong and would be just as sinful as two men or two women committing sexual acts.
So I guess the point is that gay feelings are not wrong but acting sexually on those feelings IS wrong.
Also, being gay is a choice. The homosexual feelings stem from environmental factors or personal choice. They finished coding of the Human Genome last year and have not been able to pinpoint any biological factors that contribute to homosexuality. You *could* argue that is a chemical balance/imbalance issue but then that would make homosexuality a curable affliction similar too other chemical imbalances such as depression and schizophrenia.
Hitman, I agree that homosexuality is not something I would want my children (if I had any) exposed to at a young age. But this is my same stance if my child were to ask me what sex was or a BJ is. Children, until they reach a certain age, are not able to fathom what is right and wrong when it becomes complicated. A child cannot understand that being gay is okay but is not normal and that, no, mommy and daddy aren't gay, and they were born out of a sexual act that mommy's and daddy's do because they love each other and no, gay people can't have children (biologically) because they cannot have sex because of they way God made men and women.
This is just the start of what you would have to explain to your child when the question arises. You can't just give them a simple answer because it is not a simple issue.
These are all my thoughts for now. I'll be back later. Again, I feel honored to surround myself with the company of such intellectual individuals.
Nick
I was a bit angered while reading this thread so what follows may sting some...
I think it is quite incredible how we corrupt the scriptures and twist and bend the words of God to match our will and circumstances. Homosexuality has been abominable in the Lord’s eyes since the beginning of time and who are we to change that. Just because people are coming out of the closet and the world is too corrupt, afraid, calloused and or desensitized does not mean that the Lord will change his laws. There are even church’s willing to “amend” these scared laws so as not to lose fellowship with members and the community (one of the downsides to a paid clergy).
Read Genesis chapter 19 about the city of Sodom (let me know if you need a brief summary) and see what the Lord did then. Not very accepting to say the least. Do not think that because the world is degenerating that we should accept and follow. Some have said in this thread that the Lord’s love is unconditional, etc etc. Is that a free pass to break all His rules?
"John 15:14 Ye are my friends•, if ye do whatsoever I command you." Stands to reason that if you don’t obey then you are not His friend.
Please don’t persuade our young members to indulge in these or any other acts of hideousness.
Oh, I love my Q!!
I think it is quite incredible how we corrupt the scriptures and twist and bend the words of God to match our will and circumstances. Homosexuality has been abominable in the Lord’s eyes since the beginning of time and who are we to change that. Just because people are coming out of the closet and the world is too corrupt, afraid, calloused and or desensitized does not mean that the Lord will change his laws. There are even church’s willing to “amend” these scared laws so as not to lose fellowship with members and the community (one of the downsides to a paid clergy).
Read Genesis chapter 19 about the city of Sodom (let me know if you need a brief summary) and see what the Lord did then. Not very accepting to say the least. Do not think that because the world is degenerating that we should accept and follow. Some have said in this thread that the Lord’s love is unconditional, etc etc. Is that a free pass to break all His rules?
"John 15:14 Ye are my friends•, if ye do whatsoever I command you." Stands to reason that if you don’t obey then you are not His friend.
Please don’t persuade our young members to indulge in these or any other acts of hideousness.
Oh, I love my Q!!
Man, sucks that I can't visit the boards more than once every two weeks! Missing out on some good stuff!
Watching a PBS special about Roman gladiators, I was dumbfounded at how the masses of such a dominant, 'civilized' society regarded executions, to-the-death man-to-man, man-to-beast combat as pure entertainment. Til this day, I still find it unsettling. But even more disturbing is that little has changed since those archaic times- mindless tripe known as 'reality' TV dominate the ratings and shockumentaries like Faces of Death have some of the highest return-on-investment of any films. People still watch people get impaled by swords or being methodically tortured or ripped into shreds by alligators- but what's even worse is because of the advent of technology, we can watch it over and over again in the comfort of our fave recliner. This just illustrates my point that human nature will always be the same. We'll always be inexplicably intrigued by decapitations and other senseless violence.
Regarding homosexuality on TV, I personally don't have issues with it but can easily see why parents would. The one thing that irks my being is that studio exec's exploit homosexuality for the sake of ratings and have reduced that community to something akin to a circus sideshow but lavished with terrible stereotypes (prissy gay men abound saying things like "like whateverr"). But again, homosexuality doesn't bother me, it's just irritating that corporate bigwigs are plastering this stuff over the TV for the sake of higher-ratings. Can't be that bad though, can't be any worse than the program featuring 40 midgets vs. an elephant in a tug of war. :oface Besides, I (and we all) have the ultimate power over the studios over TV programming, we have the power of NOT tuning in. If there wasn't an audience, this sillyness wouldn't bedeck our beloved living room tubes.
BTW, Why you hating on homosexuality Hitman!!!?!?? More gay guys is good thing! More women for the rest of us! Oh yeah and I have absolutely no gripes about girl-on-girl action!
Watching a PBS special about Roman gladiators, I was dumbfounded at how the masses of such a dominant, 'civilized' society regarded executions, to-the-death man-to-man, man-to-beast combat as pure entertainment. Til this day, I still find it unsettling. But even more disturbing is that little has changed since those archaic times- mindless tripe known as 'reality' TV dominate the ratings and shockumentaries like Faces of Death have some of the highest return-on-investment of any films. People still watch people get impaled by swords or being methodically tortured or ripped into shreds by alligators- but what's even worse is because of the advent of technology, we can watch it over and over again in the comfort of our fave recliner. This just illustrates my point that human nature will always be the same. We'll always be inexplicably intrigued by decapitations and other senseless violence.
Regarding homosexuality on TV, I personally don't have issues with it but can easily see why parents would. The one thing that irks my being is that studio exec's exploit homosexuality for the sake of ratings and have reduced that community to something akin to a circus sideshow but lavished with terrible stereotypes (prissy gay men abound saying things like "like whateverr"). But again, homosexuality doesn't bother me, it's just irritating that corporate bigwigs are plastering this stuff over the TV for the sake of higher-ratings. Can't be that bad though, can't be any worse than the program featuring 40 midgets vs. an elephant in a tug of war. :oface Besides, I (and we all) have the ultimate power over the studios over TV programming, we have the power of NOT tuning in. If there wasn't an audience, this sillyness wouldn't bedeck our beloved living room tubes.
BTW, Why you hating on homosexuality Hitman!!!?!?? More gay guys is good thing! More women for the rest of us! Oh yeah and I have absolutely no gripes about girl-on-girl action!
Just read through all the posts...all the invigorating debating has left me breathless and speechless. There were one or two weak posts that were about as anemic as a malnourished baby but they were few and far between as sandwiched between some very eloquently-written debates. Bravo! Keep knockin' heads folks!
Oh yeah, Fiznat, you're definitely the minority here but it's good to see you're not backing down from some serious opposition. I see you go to BU...so does my sis!
Oh yeah, Fiznat, you're definitely the minority here but it's good to see you're not backing down from some serious opposition. I see you go to BU...so does my sis!
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I H8 UR DSM
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blah blah blah.....
1. The 'bible' is irrelevant imo, since its not accepted by everyone, nor should be. I can't even read those post that have that as its basis...
2. For hundreds of years "homosexuality" and "bisexuality" was common lifestyle, therefor can be argued thats what 'our world' is developed from and even based on
3. Without me taking a side, i'd like to hear on what grounds, and for what reason there is any problem with 'homosexuality'....and if you try to mention the bible in any way, you are a sheep.
4. Whoever said "i dont hate homosexuals, i think they are funny...." needs further education on the subject.
5. Is it better to shade kids from whats going on in the world? or open them up to it, help them accept it, and grow to be better people than we have here now? (yes yes, point out your chester the molestor story again, blah blah....but if kids arent aware, then they wont understand thats wrong, and would be affected more negatively)
6. Or society, as americans, has caused us to become the most conceaded people, and its no reason other countries 'hate' us and have problems with our political and social views....and threads like this demonstrate that.
what gives a heterosexual person superiority over a homosexual person?
1. The 'bible' is irrelevant imo, since its not accepted by everyone, nor should be. I can't even read those post that have that as its basis...
2. For hundreds of years "homosexuality" and "bisexuality" was common lifestyle, therefor can be argued thats what 'our world' is developed from and even based on
3. Without me taking a side, i'd like to hear on what grounds, and for what reason there is any problem with 'homosexuality'....and if you try to mention the bible in any way, you are a sheep.
4. Whoever said "i dont hate homosexuals, i think they are funny...." needs further education on the subject.
5. Is it better to shade kids from whats going on in the world? or open them up to it, help them accept it, and grow to be better people than we have here now? (yes yes, point out your chester the molestor story again, blah blah....but if kids arent aware, then they wont understand thats wrong, and would be affected more negatively)
6. Or society, as americans, has caused us to become the most conceaded people, and its no reason other countries 'hate' us and have problems with our political and social views....and threads like this demonstrate that.
what gives a heterosexual person superiority over a homosexual person?
Although this might be seen as bad in some eyes, its what i truly feel. i for one, think that for a small part, the christian religion has gone downhill. dont get me wrong, im a christian and i have family in the theological field, but im a little upset by how much the Bible has been changed and altered so, like stated before, churches can keep their members. i also dont like the way some churches just preach on how everyone is going to hell, and that you should live your life in fear of Jesus' return. i am not the most devote christian, but i dont think im booked for a flight down south. i would rather go to a church that gave insight on how to live your life better, and how to get through tough times. my grandparents pator is like this. funny, yet very intelligent, taking his job very seriously. yet he always adds a little humor into his sermons and i could sit there and listen for hours cause he tells people about every day things.
Another thing that really bugs me is the topic of money. i really hope i dont offend anyone, as this is just my oppion, but i see a lot of money being flaunted by some churches. it seems that religion is best money making business out there now. Near my town, we have Ft. God and the Baptidome. Two MONSTER churches that seem to never stop growing. Ft. God, or The Fellowship Church, requires you to buy a membership to their church. and i really dont see how a poor parishioner can afford a BMW, Merc, Jag, or other high dollar car because they arent paid that much at a regular sized church. and who can forget the TV evangelists. the lady with the big purple hair and her male counterpart, sitting atop their giant gold thrones. "please send you money to help us....uh...help the children."/rant
Another thing that really bugs me is the topic of money. i really hope i dont offend anyone, as this is just my oppion, but i see a lot of money being flaunted by some churches. it seems that religion is best money making business out there now. Near my town, we have Ft. God and the Baptidome. Two MONSTER churches that seem to never stop growing. Ft. God, or The Fellowship Church, requires you to buy a membership to their church. and i really dont see how a poor parishioner can afford a BMW, Merc, Jag, or other high dollar car because they arent paid that much at a regular sized church. and who can forget the TV evangelists. the lady with the big purple hair and her male counterpart, sitting atop their giant gold thrones. "please send you money to help us....uh...help the children."/rant
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I H8 UR DSM
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organized religion is a form of brainwashing...especially when they allow children inside the church, who are not old enough to make their own decisions, or realize what they are being 'forced' to listen to or learn.....its one thing if they waiited for them to be old and educated enough to make their own decisions...
I dont know you personally, but i would 'guess' that you were brought into the church before you were really old enough to make a educated decision on the subject on your own...
If a child thinks or says that homosexual lifestyles are wrong..they 'most likely' learned that in 'church' or from someone who is religious...so they didnt 'learn' it, they were told.
I dont know you personally, but i would 'guess' that you were brought into the church before you were really old enough to make a educated decision on the subject on your own...
If a child thinks or says that homosexual lifestyles are wrong..they 'most likely' learned that in 'church' or from someone who is religious...so they didnt 'learn' it, they were told.
I H8 UR DSM,
You bring up a lot of questions with no answers or educated explanations. I don't feel you deserve a response but I will throw you a bone or two.
1. The Bible, whether or not you accept it, it is still a valid source for the topic of dicussion. If we were to debate how the world was created or what really happened during the Peyloponnesian Wars then I wouldn't go to the Bible to use as a source. But, when morality and God are concerned, the Bible IS a valid source just as the Qu' Ran, the Torah (part of the Bible anyway), etc. As Hitman said, 86% percent of Americans believe in God so why should we leave such a 'popular' character out of a debate that's right in his backyard, so to speak.
2. Explain to me, in what society homosexuality and bisexuality was the norm. I don't believe anyone here who is gay or supports homosexuality would ever consider it 'the norm'. They realize that not everyone is homosexual.
3. You say I am a sheep, I will try to be civil. Why must people call those of us with religion and beliefs in God and the Bible sheep? Are these people truly thinking new and innovative thoughts all of their own accord? or do they simply strive to be different just for the sake of being different? moreover, what justifies their self-implied/proclaimed superiority? is it because they are different? this certainly is not a valid qualification for superiority.
4. Moot
5. It is best to bring kids along in society at an appropriate pace. Appropriate in this context means, slow enough for them to fully understand the ways of the world and the world around them. A 4-year-old child cannot be expected to fully understand why we have laws governing media law, in the same sense, there are other things which one cannot expect a child to fully comprehend. The majority of children have a mother and a father, whether together or not, as parents. How then, can one explain that their entire notion of love, from birth until now, has been only example of love. It's not easy for them to comprehend and thus they should be given time to develop certain cognitive skills before being subjected to such information.
6. This is the same society that you live in. Everyone has a different view on how they think society is. I cannot change your view or tell you that your view is wrong; therefore, I cannot argue this contention.
Nick
You bring up a lot of questions with no answers or educated explanations. I don't feel you deserve a response but I will throw you a bone or two.
1. The Bible, whether or not you accept it, it is still a valid source for the topic of dicussion. If we were to debate how the world was created or what really happened during the Peyloponnesian Wars then I wouldn't go to the Bible to use as a source. But, when morality and God are concerned, the Bible IS a valid source just as the Qu' Ran, the Torah (part of the Bible anyway), etc. As Hitman said, 86% percent of Americans believe in God so why should we leave such a 'popular' character out of a debate that's right in his backyard, so to speak.
2. Explain to me, in what society homosexuality and bisexuality was the norm. I don't believe anyone here who is gay or supports homosexuality would ever consider it 'the norm'. They realize that not everyone is homosexual.
3. You say I am a sheep, I will try to be civil. Why must people call those of us with religion and beliefs in God and the Bible sheep? Are these people truly thinking new and innovative thoughts all of their own accord? or do they simply strive to be different just for the sake of being different? moreover, what justifies their self-implied/proclaimed superiority? is it because they are different? this certainly is not a valid qualification for superiority.
4. Moot
5. It is best to bring kids along in society at an appropriate pace. Appropriate in this context means, slow enough for them to fully understand the ways of the world and the world around them. A 4-year-old child cannot be expected to fully understand why we have laws governing media law, in the same sense, there are other things which one cannot expect a child to fully comprehend. The majority of children have a mother and a father, whether together or not, as parents. How then, can one explain that their entire notion of love, from birth until now, has been only example of love. It's not easy for them to comprehend and thus they should be given time to develop certain cognitive skills before being subjected to such information.
6. This is the same society that you live in. Everyone has a different view on how they think society is. I cannot change your view or tell you that your view is wrong; therefore, I cannot argue this contention.
Nick
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AZhitman
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Jesse - I respect your viewpoint, but you're wrong. I like you enough to spend some time discussing it, I have no problem with saying that, and I'll tell you why:
Where do we get our concept of what is "right" and what is "wrong"? From the Commandments. It's indisputable. You said yourself that certain behaviors are inherently wrong - But you haven't considered WHY they are or who says they are.
The Bible is THE most archaeologically, historically, and scientifically supported text in existence. Period. That is also indisputable. So whether you choose to believe what is contained therein is certainly your choice, but you can't dispute it's accuracy (well, you can, but it's like saying the world is flat).
You've referred to anyone who references the bible as "sheep". I suppose that's why you are a law-abiding citizen? You follow these rules every day. You'd readily admit that there is a "universal law of right/wrong", yet won't acknowledge its source. You, my friend, are speaking out of both sides of your mouth...
As far as children "learning" (or being "told") right from wrong, well, no kidding. A child has to be taught that smacking another child and taking his cookie is wrong, too. Where's the problem? We are born without that knowledge - We have to get it from somewhere.
BTW - I'm not a big fan of organized religion, for the very reasons Seth mentioned.
Also, consider this. If I'm wrong, the WORST that can happen is I've wasted a little time here on Earth trying to be a better person, and sharing with others about that journey. If you're wrong, the consequences are severe and eternal.
Where do we get our concept of what is "right" and what is "wrong"? From the Commandments. It's indisputable. You said yourself that certain behaviors are inherently wrong - But you haven't considered WHY they are or who says they are.
The Bible is THE most archaeologically, historically, and scientifically supported text in existence. Period. That is also indisputable. So whether you choose to believe what is contained therein is certainly your choice, but you can't dispute it's accuracy (well, you can, but it's like saying the world is flat).
You've referred to anyone who references the bible as "sheep". I suppose that's why you are a law-abiding citizen? You follow these rules every day. You'd readily admit that there is a "universal law of right/wrong", yet won't acknowledge its source. You, my friend, are speaking out of both sides of your mouth...
As far as children "learning" (or being "told") right from wrong, well, no kidding. A child has to be taught that smacking another child and taking his cookie is wrong, too. Where's the problem? We are born without that knowledge - We have to get it from somewhere.
BTW - I'm not a big fan of organized religion, for the very reasons Seth mentioned.
Also, consider this. If I'm wrong, the WORST that can happen is I've wasted a little time here on Earth trying to be a better person, and sharing with others about that journey. If you're wrong, the consequences are severe and eternal.
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I H8 UR DSM
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1. Why does homosexuality have to be discussed with morality and God? Are we going to make this a religious debate? my point was that religion should have nothing to do with this topic/thread at all. I dont care one bit about what the 'chistian, or catholic or al quida etc' morality covers or whatever
2. Not everyone was ever homsexual....but if you study your history, you will find that same gender sex was accepted in many societies throughout time, and people would contend that on an inate level, there is nothing wrong with that...what made homosexuality wrong? some would point out modern organized religion.
3. I dont know what you want me to say...you didnt answer the original question. Don't take it personally...as nietzche said "the surest way to currupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently".
4. ok
5. Yes, an appropriate pace....but what is this pace? and who decides it? the church? the government? we look down upon some other societies/countries, who push their 'children' into situations/lifestyles that we, as americans, disagree with...."kids shouldnt be having children at 13 years old...kids shouldnt be living on their own, hunting, fighting wars, etc etc"...why? because we are americans, and we are right, and everyone else is wrong.....
6. I do live here...but i will NOT raise my chilren in this country and this society.
Yes everyone's different, and no matter what, this topic would not, could not come to a conclusion, no matter how many times we post back and forth.
2. Not everyone was ever homsexual....but if you study your history, you will find that same gender sex was accepted in many societies throughout time, and people would contend that on an inate level, there is nothing wrong with that...what made homosexuality wrong? some would point out modern organized religion.
3. I dont know what you want me to say...you didnt answer the original question. Don't take it personally...as nietzche said "the surest way to currupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently".
4. ok
5. Yes, an appropriate pace....but what is this pace? and who decides it? the church? the government? we look down upon some other societies/countries, who push their 'children' into situations/lifestyles that we, as americans, disagree with...."kids shouldnt be having children at 13 years old...kids shouldnt be living on their own, hunting, fighting wars, etc etc"...why? because we are americans, and we are right, and everyone else is wrong.....
6. I do live here...but i will NOT raise my chilren in this country and this society.
Yes everyone's different, and no matter what, this topic would not, could not come to a conclusion, no matter how many times we post back and forth.