Rare's "Little" Project -This is a slow one

[raremotive]

Haha, no problem... I just see angles, because that's what I "need" as you can see in the picture below.

[raremotive]

Just some teasing pictures of what to come in the distant future.

[evildky]

so the short answer is you wanted rwd and a 6 speed nothing wrong with that, but if you wanted to minimize fab you wouldn't be building a tube frame front

and the rb oil pan should be flat att eh bottom as well indicating where level is, and I believe you'll find taht the stock rb engine mounts should be level to one another where the would meet the crossmsmber

on a side note,the RB is an evolution of the L6 and I never really notived they did slant it in the opposite direction, this makes for weight distribution problems on a swapped S30

and for sh*ts and giggles, do you have a vg30DE(TT) rod laying aroudn to picture next to the RB rods? the VG uses dainty rods, the RB like the L6 has much beefier rods, obviously your aftermarkets are slimmed down a bit

[raremotive]

so the short answer is you wanted rwd and a 6 speed nothing wrong with that, but if you wanted to minimize fab you wouldn't be building a tube frame front

and the rb oil pan should be flat att eh bottom as well indicating where level is, and I believe you'll find taht the stock rb engine mounts should be level to one another where the would meet the crossmsmber

on a side note,the RB is an evolution of the L6 and I never really notived they did slant it in the opposite direction, this makes for weight distribution problems on a swapped S30

and for sh*ts and giggles, do you have a vg30DE(TT) rod laying aroudn to picture next to the RB rods? the VG uses dainty rods, the RB like the L6 has much beefier rods, obviously your aftermarkets are slimmed down a bit

Not exactly minimize, but I have a LOT already. I just don't want a greater list to track down.

I was thinking the same about the flat bottom pan and engine mounts being level.

Not forget the S20 as well, I just wished they kept the chain driven valve train.

I don't have a TT rod and the NA rods that I kept as souvenirs are in storage up at my university. But I do have my stock rb rods with me, maybe if someone brings a TT rod up to Omaha and we can compare.

Having seen both, RB rods are dwarfed compared the the VG rods.

And for aftermarket comparsions, this scale has been calibrated with a certified 1000g

[NORCAL300ZX916]

ok now i see where u got money for this whole project buddy... uh huh...who just has a digital scientific balance laying around...i bet u know how many grains are in a gram and how many grams are in an ounce and how many ounces in a pound...yea i see now...

[raremotive]

^ I don't have any bad habits... besides the car... guess it pans out.. (where do you think I get the money?)

I figured out if I level the motor by the mounting bolts, the motor will sit at it's stock position. I finished making the adapter template. Time to call up a machinist.

[DCaff300ZX]

I can't wait to see what happens with this thread, you sir are one VERY interesting and OBVIOUSLY capable guy!
I've been coming around to the RB idea myself especially given my uncle races one he built and tunes himself, which would work around my intentional ignorance of auto electronics, so I'm hoping your incredible detail continues and you give me some great ideas!!!

[raremotive]

RB is good motor, but not the best. I chose it because I am a straight six junkie, I like them since I learned they existed. I can argue how they have a history. But if you really want a tip, I would try a VK56 before a RB. I know someday I will get my hand on a few and make another car.

[DCaff300ZX]

Thanks for the tip, but I am an old-school guy who really has struggled with what to do with my Z in the future.

On one hand I built my own '67 Mustang when I was a kid (a 600 HP build from a magazine) and tuned it daily for optimum performance, and beyond the beauty of a old Mustang I enjoyed that control of my platform along with the "respect" I got within my friends and occasional opponents that seems impossible with the VG NA and TT.
I mean c'mon, you got a twin turbo? Really? A whole 300-400 HP???
Not too notable IMO unless it's TG or Gino's rigs.

So watching Shannon Ferguson's 454 swap makes me think of my old FE "408" beast sitting in my Z, and the thunder that would produce along with crappy gas mileage and sky-high parts costs.
Not gonna happen most likely, although a ITB FE would be screamin' thunder that would be fun to unleash on an unsuspecting fool in a modern sports car.

So this all has led me back to my Uncle Danny who races a custom RB Datsun pickup in Arizona (was on Passtime, a 10.30 run) that he's built and races with his son- I have talked Nissan power with him in the past, and I'm sure he'd help me out in that arena...the arena of turbo and electronics because he and the rest of my family are electronics nerds to the extreme, and he also is very up on Nissan turbo power as a Nissan master mechanic while my other uncle who's a master mechanical engineer also has gotten involved.
Anyway, so that's why I am extremely interested to see what you do with your Z because it seems you will be doing a TON of interesting work that I could only DREAM of doing, and there will be a bunch of good ideas that come from it much like Gord's 240 build on the classic site...

So let's see what you got, Rare!

[tg]

well, RB's can make it past 600whp without much sweat... this one will likely be up around there. A VK56 build would be absolutely mental though. Next build, okay f8?

[raremotive]

Sounds like your idea is well grounded. It's always nice to have a helping hand for your ambitions. In the arena of things, if you are looking at an RB in the sub 500 and 600. RB25 is a winner in cost and you can even reach those powers in stock trim. You really have to sell yourself to get the RB26 to deal with the extra cost and parts it brings.

Yeah I always wondered why the VG suffered, while the RB and 2JZ are practically dyno queens. I been working on the idea that the VG doesn't get the right airflow.

Electronics is an interesting one, but I have a game plan and lots time to think about it. It involves an oscilloscope and the handy volt meter. I have a few tricks and things to reveal later. As far as tuning, that's new territory. I been reading a lot about it, but it doesn't seem real enough until I have tried it. But it's still far before I will be tuning. I just recently been getting a handle on reading the compressor maps and I am working on trying to understand how to map response. I have narrowed it down to two different combos of turbos.

In the end, just hearing a deep mellow pulse of the 120 crank rotation from the RB will be satisfying.

[raremotive]

well, RB's can make it past 600whp without much sweat... this one will likely be up around there. A VK56 build would be absolutely mental though. Next build, okay f8?

Sure, PURE "response" NA VK56 is my thinking. Heard it sounds like an old WWII plane.. un-resonated..

[DCaff300ZX]

well, RB's can make it past 600whp without much sweat... this one will likely be up around there. A VK56 build would be absolutely mental though. Next build, okay f8?

OK TG, school me the old school know-not-enough...what up with this VK56?
Cylinders, history, capabilities, availability...

[DCaff300ZX]

Sounds like your idea is well grounded. It's always nice to have a helping hand for your ambitions. In the arena of things, if you are looking at an RB in the sub 500 and 600. RB25 is a winner in cost and you can even reach those powers in stock trim.

Yeah I always wondered why the VG suffered, while the RB and 2JZ are practically dyno queens. I been working on the idea that the VG doesn't get the right airflow.

I'm with you on the RB25, and my tuner says my ECU and other stuff can be used which is a bonus.
I am also at a loss with the VG series, SUCH a seemingly dreamy platform with variable valve timing on a double overhead cam motor that goes 200K+, it simply STUNS me that "buy a TT" is the stock response to build a Z!
We'll see what happens...learn me, man!

[raremotive]

Here's a start... every titan, armada, 2008+ pathfinders and QX56 has one... all aluminum v-8 block, iron cylinder liners, cross bolted main crank craddle, from factory forged steel connecting rods, DOHC 4 valves per hole... tg.. you got the rest... :P

[tg]

here is why the vk56 is interesting in my eyes...

decent early-90's domestic 3.0L v6 (think 1990 chevy baretta GT) would put out about 160hp, started blowing their internals apart at around 7000rpm, and didn't usually make it to 200k.

compare that with the vg30de. 222 hp, 7000k all day.

Now, the reason behind MOST of this is engine clearances and build tolerances. The vg30 was made to (at that time) very very tight engine tolerances. It made an LT1 fresh off the assembly line in 1992 look like a sloppy 'did it in my neighbors garage' rebuilt engine. The newer VQ and VK engines make this even more noticeable (although most domestic engines today have caught up).

The old 'no replacement for displacement' holds true, although usually import engines had to make up for displacement with turbo's and very high RPM engines and such. the latter requiring very stringent build practices and tolerances. Basically they had to make better, smaller displacement engines.

The VK is basically the Nissan version of a small block 350. And nissan's 3.0L was putting out almost as much as chevy's 5.7L of the same era. Built to much more stringent tolerances than the vg, and insane reliability and power potential (refer to rare's summary of components), this thing is a tuner's v8. Nissan uses a smaller version of it (4.5L) that makes a 'de-tuned' 500hp and can hit 10,000rpm. They used it in the JGTC 350z and I think they still are in the GT-R. A naturally-aspirated 500hp, 8000rpm nissan v8 with almost 6L of displacement.... well, you get the idea. mmm. Now I'm all hot and bothered.

[raremotive]

The GT1 GTR uses the VK56 and it's 600 hp 479 ft-lb of torque...all NA power...

[tg]

The GT1 GTR uses the VK56 and it's 600 hp 479 ft-lb of torque...all NA power...

Yup, pretty bad a** engine.

[NolimitZ32]

[car nut]

NA power is a thing of beauty. Anyone who's driven an AP1 S2000 knows what I mean lol.

[BigTDogg (MA)]

Back to the Future hoverboard anyone?



Nice project

[evildky]

NA power is a thing of beauty. Anyone who's driven an AP1 S2000 knows what I mean lol.

but they wouldn't know a thing about torque

by the way when you made your trand plate template, did you measure for runout? wouldn't want to tank the rear main over an alignment issue

[raremotive]

Back to the Future hoverboard anyone?

Nice project

Yeah I been working on the anti-gavitons, but they are proving to be unstable and require lots of energy to keep them active.

NA power is a thing of beauty. Anyone who's driven an AP1 S2000 knows what I mean lol.

by the way when you made your trand plate template, did you measure for runout? wouldn't want to tank the rear main over an alignment issue

That was my primary concern, I figured if I allow some free play with the bolt holes, I can get the crank and input shaft to agree with each other.

In today's news:

Sent the template into a machinist. Going to have the outline cut out of 1/2" steel plate. I should have something by friday or monday by quote.

In the mean time, going to be soon where the classified ads for jobs and I are going to go though an assessment. My two week break from college is near to a end.

[serg-z32]

Back to the Future hoverboard anyone?



Nice project

lol.. err... wait... wrong movie...

[evildky]

That was my primary concern, I figured if I allow some free play with the bolt holes, I can get the crank and input shaft to agree with each other.

In today's news:

Sent the template into a machinist. Going to have the outline cut out of 1/2" steel plate. I should have something by friday or monday by quote.

In the mean time, going to be soon where the classified ads for jobs and I are going to go though an assessment. My two week break from college is near to a end.

so you didn't actually measure end shaft runout? I urge you to dial this in before you lock everthing down, just getitng it to "agree" is nt good enough, you can buy offset dowl pins sized for popular domestic transmissions, you can size your dowl pin holes to use these allowing you to lock it down in the correct position, and lets nto forget about a flywheel spacer that'll need to be hubcentric and fit the pilot bearing

[raremotive]

so you didn't actually measure end shaft runout? I urge you to dial this in before you lock everthing down, just getitng it to "agree" is nt good enough, you can buy offset dowl pins sized for popular domestic transmissions, you can size your dowl pin holes to use these allowing you to lock it down in the correct position, and lets nto forget about a flywheel spacer that'll need to be hubcentric and fit the pilot bearing

Believe me I been considering about run out and crank alignment. There will be a minor play in the plate to allow for adjustments, at some cases I might end up having to replace the transmission, so I need a degree of adjustment freedom. Nothing is final until I do the final assembly of the engine, that's when I lock this in.

I didn't forget about the spacer either. The quote from spring break thread:

Once the adapter is made you now run into the problem that the input shaft no longer sits inside the pilot bearing. So a steel spacer will need to be made with a it's own pilot bearing. This is where it might come beneficial once I get pass the 6 bolt rb26 crank and 8 bolt 350z flywheel dilemma, I would be able to bolt on the 350z flywheel goodies, and use it's starter. And just to be a sneaky bastard, the 350z uses a crank angle sensor at the flywheel. And since I will be running a standalone ECU, it's more likely to fly.

I appreciate your input as well. Please always feel the need to voice your concern with me, I always benefit from having other inputs, it brings me to reason my choices better.

[DCaff300ZX]

here is why the vk56 is interesting in my eyes...

decent early-90's domestic 3.0L v6 (think 1990 chevy baretta GT) would put out about 160hp, started blowing their internals apart at around 7000rpm, and didn't usually make it to 200k.

compare that with the vg30de. 222 hp, 7000k all day.

Now, the reason behind MOST of this is engine clearances and build tolerances. The vg30 was made to (at that time) very very tight engine tolerances. It made an LT1 fresh off the assembly line in 1992 look like a sloppy 'did it in my neighbors garage' rebuilt engine. The newer VQ and VK engines make this even more noticeable (although most domestic engines today have caught up).

The old 'no replacement for displacement' holds true, although usually import engines had to make up for displacement with turbo's and very high RPM engines and such. the latter requiring very stringent build practices and tolerances. Basically they had to make better, smaller displacement engines.

The VK is basically the Nissan version of a small block 350. And nissan's 3.0L was putting out almost as much as chevy's 5.7L of the same era. Built to much more stringent tolerances than the vg, and insane reliability and power potential (refer to rare's summary of components), this thing is a tuner's v8. Nissan uses a smaller version of it (4.5L) that makes a 'de-tuned' 500hp and can hit 10,000rpm. They used it in the JGTC 350z and I think they still are in the GT-R. A naturally-aspirated 500hp, 8000rpm nissan v8 with almost 6L of displacement.... well, you get the idea. mmm. Now I'm all hot and bothered.

THANKS TG!
Makes total sense- one reasons I wonder about the VG is because of what you say- that they are really a better motor stock than most V8's
One of the things I liked best about the FE Ford engine I built long ago was the tight parts tolerances I was schooled on using at various points along the way that allowed the engine performance I wanted (high-revving Ford FE) AND reliability, an unheard of combination in my day.
Roller rocker system, electronic ignition, an annular discharge "Evil Toilet", Oberg remote filter, more I've forgotten...damn thing was like a sewing machine with 610 HP and this VK sounds just as good or better.

So I missed a few days, and now I'm all hot and bothered now too over that VK...might be worth the hassle some day...

[raremotive]

Talked with the machinist, he will have the outline cut out done for me tomorrow. He showed me the work done so far, looking good.

Also played with the goodies today. Was trying to figure out which bore gauge I need to get. Looks like a 50-100mm. Also just put the piston rod combo together to see it's sexiness.

[DMeN Z]

Talked with the machinist, he will have the outline cut out done for me tomorrow. He showed me the work done so far, looking good.

Also played with the goodies today. Was trying to figure out which bore gauge I need to get. Looks like a 50-100mm. Also just put the piston rod combo together to see it's sexiness.

All this talk about straight motor is making me all twitchy with joy. I will definitely have to see your Frankestein Z when I pass through South Dakota (correct?).

[raremotive]

More or less. Actually no. I school in South Dakota. Frankenstein is in Nebraska. But who knows where we will be in a year.