Oh hey its the new Chevrolet Aveo

[IBCoupe]

Right, so the solution to the problem presented to the individual who has to deal with merging on a highway filled with people who don't move the eff over is to do what?

[PoorManQ45]

Right, so the solution to the problem presented to the individual who has to deal with merging on a highway filled with people who don't move the eff over is to do what?

Accelerate and merge properly :-P

You guys are talking about short onramps. Can you provide me with the location of one. I'll pull it up to see the real distance.

[MinisterofDOOM]

The previous gen was built by Daihatsu I think, but this gen is built by Chevy/GM (again, I think... my positivity escapes me).

Both generations are built by Daewoo, which is GM-owned.

So, because our freeway/interstate systems are screwed up that justifies the need for more power?

Yes. If you don't have the necessary power to merge at speed, you're gonna cause an accident.

Not just that, but initially merging onto the freeway is already a large problem. We're at a point where urban highway speed limits can't go any higher because too many cars (for various reasons) can't make posted speeds in the length of an onramp without aggressive throttle input*. The last thing we need is MORE cars that can't hit 65 by the time they've got to slide into traffic. Not every car needs to be a sports car. But every car needs to meet minimum performance standards in order to share the road with others without becoming an impediment.

Remember, that 0-60 time of 8 seconds is the Aveo pushing as hard as it can!!!! That's THE BEST you'll see. If you're on the throttle hard, shifting aggressively, and under ideal conditions. Average drivers and fuel-conscious drivers will do neither. So in the real world it's giong to be 14 seconds to 60.

[IBCoupe]

You guys are talking about short onramps. Can you provide me with the location of one. I'll pull it up to see the real distance.

The Southern and Cross Island parkways in NY come to mind. Merritt/Hutchinson Parkway in CT/NY is another. I know for a fact that the latter has stop signs at the end of many of their on-ramps. Between NYC and Milford, CT, the Merritt/Hutchinson is a toll-less, truckless two-lane companion to the three-lane I-95.

While the speed limits for the CIP and Merritt/Hutchinson are 50 and 55MPH respectively, nobody goes any slower than 70MPH, and cops aren't keen on making them do so. Though you're right to point out systemic issues, keep in mind that the average driver who's out car-shopping isn't really planning on the system being resolved by the time they hit the streets on their new wheels.

Now, none of this is to say that you can't have an efficient car that meets requirements. But some efficiency is sacrificed to do so, and that's something that isn't accounted for in your bemoaning of power over efficiency. There's a lot of competing interests in a person's mind, and I'm not so sure I want to be casting aspersions on any one of them.

[PoorManQ45]

The Southern and Cross Island parkways in NY come to mind. Merritt/Hutchinson Parkway in CT/NY is another. I know for a fact that the latter has stop signs at the end of many of their on-ramps. Between NYC and Milford, CT, the Merritt/Hutchinson is a toll-less, truckless two-lane companion to the three-lane I-95.

Is this an example of an onramp that you're referring to?

Google maps

From the radius of that curve you'd probably be able to comfortable take that at 35~55mph. And then they've got a merging lane for what appears to be 50~100 yards.

Here's another one: Google maps Here's a streetview looking back from the end of the merging lane to the onramp google maps

Maybe I am looking in the wrong places?

[IBCoupe]

Did you see the stop signs preceding no merging lanes in some areas? If not, I'd say that you probably aren't looking in the right places, as that's what I'm talking about.

I'm not saying that all of the on-ramps are problematic; I'm saying that some are. I seriously doubt you've looked at each and every one of them. I drive those roads fairly often, so I'm not talking out of my butt.

[sx moneypit]

You hit the nail right on the head brother!

[sx moneypit]

I agree with you Eric.

[PoorManQ45]

28.325273,-82.324462 and 28.419787,-82.290988.

You are talking about This and This? If so, that's really confusing as those ramps are longer then the ones I posted.

I am assuming you're talking about the ramps onto I75, correct?

Good luck getting up to the 70mph speed limit (even so, most people travel at 80mph) or even the 50mph minimum speed limit with your 18hp motorcycle.

I believe my slow turd bike will out accelerate a 240... Yet you guys say that 240 is acceptable... Why? And I've never had an issue accelerating onto the freeway. By the end of most onramps i'll be pushing 90.

Let's go even more in depth, shall we? There are no required ramp length regulations set by the Florida Department of Transportation, so a civil engineer contracted by the state, county, or city can set whatever length he or she chooses for the onramp. The drivers in Florida are like no other, they will not move out of the right lane when they see your car merging you. If you aren't up to the speed that the traffic is flowing at then you must brake and allow them to pass or you'll end up with a third row in your car.

You're in way above your knowledge level so, please, stop digging yourself further into your grave.

How does the lack of distance regulations correlate to my knowledge level?

That's a non sequitur.

[IBCoupe]

It was a separate paragraph, there, PMQ. One might more properly read that as a summary of more than just the immediately preceding paragraph.

Don't make a joke of yourself.

[PoorManQ45]

So then, the conclusion is that:

The bread and butter of car manufacturers are unsafe, slow, inefficient cars.

Does that sum this up pretty well?

[IBCoupe]

No. The conclusion is that fuel efficiency alone isn't a smart way to design a car.

Stop failing.

[PoorManQ45]

No. The conclusion is that fuel efficiency alone isn't a smart way to design a car.

Stop failing.

You're not paying attention...

You guys turned this into a high efficiency = slow car thread.

You went so far as to say that they offered unsafe levels of acceleration.

[Dittoz7]

ooooff


that is all.

[IBCoupe]

You're not paying attention...

You guys turned this into a high efficiency = slow car thread.

You went so far as to say that they offered unsafe levels of acceleration.

If you don't have anything relevant to add, don't add anything at all.

If you think I'm wrong, explain why. That we turned the thread into something doesn't make me wrong on what I wrote. That I went so far as to say that highly-efficient slow cars [can, in some cases,] offer[, if nothing else, the internalized fear of] unsafe levels of acceleration does not mean I was wrong.

Stop failing.

[AZhitman]

This is caused by a completely different issue though. Lack of driving etiquette! If you are in the lane closest to the onramp and someone is coming on, you move the eff over!

In 25 years of driving, that's never been an option for me. We have offramps every mile on most freeways in the metro Phoenix area. At 75 mph, that's less than a minute between each offramp. If I'm getting off at the next exit, and in the right lane, then there's theoretically someone trying to merge INTO traffic every 25-28 seconds (onramps enter between offramps). If they're not doing 76 or more, they don't get on the freeway.

I drive defensively to avoid accidents - I don't drive to accomodate morons or people who should be using public transit.

Incidentally, if you care that much about a few pennies worth of gas, you shouldn't BE on a freeway. You should be driving on surface streets at lower speeds. Or better yet, you should be saving REAL money by taking public transit.

So then, the conclusion is that: The bread and butter of car manufacturers are unsafe, slow, inefficient cars.

WTF are you talking about? You're blathering on and on about on-ramp length, then all the sudden, you're trying to make a conclusion for an argument you haven't made, in a discussion that no one's having, from a position of uncertainty.

IBC is pushing you around like a janitor's broom and even your flailing is failing.

[IBCoupe]

Which is kinda appropriate, as my first four employed years were as a Janitor.

[sx moneypit]

Which is kinda appropriate, as my first four employed years were as a Janitor.

[PoorManQ45]

In 25 years of driving, that's never been an option for me. We have offramps every mile on most freeways in the metro Phoenix area. At 75 mph, that's less than a minute between each offramp. If I'm getting off at the next exit, and in the right lane, then there's theoretically someone trying to merge INTO traffic every 25-28 seconds (onramps enter between offramps). If they're not doing 76 or more, they don't get on the freeway.

Are you on a two lane freeway? If so, that is understandable.

But I suspect that is not the case. More then likely you are on a 4 lane freeway, minimum. So why would you stay in the right lane? Use the left three lanes.

Incidentally, if you care that much about a few pennies worth of gas, you shouldn't BE on a freeway. You should be driving on surface streets at lower speeds. Or better yet, you should be saving REAL money by taking public transit.

Yawn... That's a typical response.

I can cruise at 90mph and still get 60mpg..

And surface streets present other issues such as stop signs/lights.

WTF are you talking about? You're blathering on and on about on-ramp length, then all the sudden, you're trying to make a conclusion for an argument you haven't made, in a discussion that no one's having, from a position of uncertainty.

I'm being lazy right now, so I won't be bothered to go back and quote the people in this thread that proclaimed that the high mileage vehicles offer such low levels of acceleration as to be unsafe.

My "Bread and butter" comment was referring to car companies high selling cars:

1/4 mile times:

Honda Civic - ~16s

Toyota Corolla - ~15.7s~16s
Toyota Yaris - ~17s
Scion Tc - ~15.9s

Nissan Sentra SE-R - 15.1s(base is slower, can't find times quickly)
Nissan Cube - 17.2s

Would someone care to cross reference those cars with their respective companies sales numbers?

[IBCoupe]

Lies, damned lies, and statistics. Nothing in those numbers indicates that those numbers are high because people just lurve them some efficiency, or that they care primarily about fuel efficiency.

You've identified that there are slow cars that sell well. Congratulations. What you haven't done is show that this fact is significant at all.

What are the sales rates of fast cars? Or trucks?

What are the sales rates of slower cars?

[Razi]

Correlation =/= Causation

[PoorManQ45]

What are the sales rates of fast cars? Or trucks?

What are the sales rates of slower cars?

That's why I requested that someone correlate those vehicles that I listed with their respective manufacturer's sales figures.

IIRC the Civic is one of Honda's top sellers.

From what you guys have said in this thread, that vehicle has an unsafe level of acceleration to properly merge into traffic...

[Razi]

Correlation =/= Causation

[AZhitman]

Are you on a two lane freeway? If so, that is understandable.

But I suspect that is not the case. More then likely you are on a 4 lane freeway, minimum. So why would you stay in the right lane? Use the left three lanes.

No.

Better yet, how's this: F*** NO.

Why would I use the left three lanes? Because some penny-pinching assforbrains in an underpowered vehicle can't get it up?

Did you not read my reasoning? Apparently not - I explained quite clearly why I'm in the right lane AND how I came to be "in the way" of some impotent dips*** who can't merge correctly PER STATUTE.

Yawn... That's a typical response.

I can cruise at 90mph and still get 60mpg..

And surface streets present other issues such as stop signs/lights.

Then why all the whining? Go do 90mph, merge easily, and STFU. This isn't eastern Europe. If I want 550hp, that's my right. Just like it's your right to ride a moped.

I'm being lazy right now

You could have just stopped here. We know.

so I won't be bothered to go back and quote the people in this thread that proclaimed that the high mileage vehicles offer such low levels of acceleration as to be unsafe.

Actually, you initiated the discussion by asking why we needed such high-hp vehicles, which you equated with inefficiency - which is, in many cases, incorrect. Don't ask people why they make a certain choice unless you want a broad range of answers.

Would someone care to cross reference those cars with their respective companies sales numbers?

No need. It's a no-brainer that the bulk of each manufacturer's sales are lower-performance offerings. We're not all wealthy. But to label those all as "inefficient" is foolish. Oops. Those are among the MOST-efficient offerings from each company.

BTW, no one mentioned the Civic having insufficient acceleration. You're drowning in your own drool.

Here's an idea: Go figure out what you want to b1tch about. Then take a couple Midol. Then come back and start over.

[PoorManQ45]

BTW, no one mentioned the Civic having insufficient acceleration. You're drowning in your own drool.

What?

The '07 Aveo does the 1/4 mile in 18 seconds. The Civic does it in 16s(The 03 SE was 19s @ 72mph). Both are extremely slow vehicles.

In that 1/4 the Aveo is doing 76mph, the Civic is doing ~84mph.

Both would be "dangerous" as you guys have said.

I am not understanding how you can classify one vehicle as "dangerously slow" and not another that is minimally faster. Hell, look at a 1995 Civic Ex... 1/4 is down @ 72mph...

[AZ89two4Tsx]

Jesus, quit digging yourself a bigger hole.

[AZhitman]

OK, and?

None of us is advocating for the purchase of those s***boxes, either. And if we are, we're not whining about their efficiency. And if we do, we're not criticizing the choices of others.

Like I said, find a point and start over.

[PoorManQ45]

Whatever guys...

You are simply defending your thirst for more power at any cost by making up claims about safety.

Please provide ANY statistics that back up that information. I have provided factual information in an attempt to set forth an objective viewpoint on the required acceleration of a vehicle.

NONE of you have returned an answer that laid out at what point the acceleration of a vehicle has become acceptable. You use terms like "get out of its own way" to describe this needed acceleration. Yeah, because that can be quantified...

Greg, please provide information on those classic Datsuns that you like to cruise in...

Also, IIRC you own a Cube. The Cube does the 1/4 in 17.2 @ 78.9.

All you guys are doing is defending your hobby. I understand that hobbies don't have to be rational, but if you're going to defend them you should use objective, NOT subjective information.

[AZhitman]

Whatever guys...

You are simply defending your thirst for more power at any cost by making up claims about safety.

Please provide ANY statistics that back up that information. I have provided factual information in an attempt to set forth an objective viewpoint on the required acceleration of a vehicle.

NONE of you have returned an answer that laid out at what point the acceleration of a vehicle has become acceptable. You use terms like "get out of its own way" to describe this needed acceleration. Yeah, because that can be quantified...

Greg, please provide information on those classic Datsuns that you like to cruise in...

Also, IIRC you own a Cube. The Cube does the 1/4 in 17.2 @ 78.9.

All you guys are doing is defending your hobby. I understand that hobbies don't have to be rational, but if you're going to defend them you should use objective, NOT subjective information.

Actually, you're on the wrong horse, as usual.

We don't HAVE to present s***. See, last I checked, I can drive whatever I please and you can't do a damn thing about it.

In fact, I don't even have to pass emissions if I drive the right car.

YOU came in whining ike a grandma about "waste" and "inefficiency". The onus is on YOU to defend your position, and you're failing miserably.

Yep, I own a Cube - great urban commuter. I own an antique Datsun pickup that requires a calendar to measure 0-60 (if it'll even hit 60). I've got a 400-hp 240sx that's good for nothing but destroying tires. I've got a daily driver that runs 13's. We have a 4x4 that never goes off-road.

Big effin' deal. I'm not in here whining about other people's choices.

BTW, you don't demand anything of me. Do your own research.

[Jesda]

Lots of strong opinions on the Aveo.