Obama overturns stem cell research stance

[telcoman]

Thankfully the American majority finally realized what a failure the previous administration was.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03...=1&hp

It is about time true science is being recognized by White House policy instead of BS by the right that Bush listened to that have their heads up their a$$es.

Stem cell research coupled with a sensible health plan will eventually raise the health care standards of the entire world.

Telcoman

[bobotech]

a sensible health plan will eventually raise the health care standards of the entire world.

Wow.

So much fail in that single statement.

Go to Cuba if you want some state sponsored health care.

I'm happy with my private insurance.

And I don't give a flying crap about other country's health care, they can do whatever works for them.


Modified by bobotech at 10:27 AM 3/7/2009

[breadbox]

crap.

Now instead of the flu they can wipe us out selectively on a genetic level.

I am scared of the federal government before they were allowed to publish all the underground research they have been doing over the years so the rest of the science community can get in on it.

[bobotech]

As far as stem cell research itself is concerned, if they want to use those cells for federally funded research, meh. I really don't care if they do or not.

I find abortion heinous and disgusting but it is necessary in certain situations (birth control is NOT one of them) and if those cells can be used for the good of science, then fine, use them even in federally funded research.

[OriginalWheelman]

Stem cell research never stopped. It just wasn't Federally Funded. It shouldn't be.

[480sx]

Stem cell research never stopped. It just wasn't Federally Funded. It shouldn't be.

What about the massive amount of grants given out by the federal government to further medical, science, engineering, ect research? Im talking.. Massive amounts of it, to so many different causes.

With something that has the promise that stem cell research holds, its in the peoples best interest to have that research be accelerated by federal grants.

Your right, the research was never stopped. However, the ability for researchers to get their hands on stem cells was so inhibited by the bush administration it might as well have been stopped.

[OriginalWheelman]

What about the massive amount of grants given out by the federal government to further medical, science, engineering, ect research? Im talking.. Massive amounts of it, to so many different causes.

The government is not responsible for funding ANY research in my opinion, and should not be funding any. They are taking that money from WE THE PEOPLE and deciding to hand it our to a business. That's not better than a bail out. Let researchers find their own investors. Government funding research simply allows them to determine what is researched, IE the stem cell funding ban.

With something that has the promise that stem cell research holds, its in the peoples best interest to have that research be accelerated by federal grants.

Your right, the research was never stopped. However, the ability for researchers to get their hands on stem cells was so inhibited by the bush administration it might as well have been stopped.

I love how everyone thinks this died. That's not true at all. 4 year ago I had stem cells put in my back as part of my spinal fusion.

[480sx]

FFS i deleted 75% my post before i posted it. BAH Gotta re write everything, som bish.

EDIT - My first write of this was better i think, but im pretty sure i hit all the same points.

The government is not responsible for funding ANY research in my opinion, and should not be funding any. They are taking that money from WE THE PEOPLE and deciding to hand it our to a business.

There is a reason we dont have a direct democracy.

They are taking that money from WE THE PEOPLE and deciding to hand it our to a business. That's not better than a bail out.

Calling medical and science research a business isnt exactly accurate. While there is a big chance for big money, thats usually not the case. They are the cutting edge our society needs to progress in all fields of science, be it medical or otherwise.

Bailout?! Please.

Take for instance, the Toyota Prius. Ignore the fact that they suck( ). IIRC, 100 percent of its development was funded by the Japanese government. Now, Toyota is a leader in hybrid technology, and Japan has seen a significant increase in their GDP based on just that government 'bailout'. Toyota cant even make these cars fast enough there is such a demand for them world wide.

Now think about all the federal grants that have been given to oncologists, psychologists, along with a whole plethora of other medical and scientific and medical studies. Without those grants, who knows how far behind we would be. But because we had them, we have pretty much the most advanced health care in the world in most fields.

Imagine for a second that stem cell research takes off, and 10 years from now we are able to cure lets say.. Paralysis. Lets say we beat everyone else to it, because generally speaking America is the cutting edge in a lot of things(unfortunately for us we seem to be falling behind because of military spending). Imagine the influx of people world wide that would come to America for treatment. This helps EVERYONE.

Again, there is a reason we dont have a direct democracy. People dont know whats good for them. Unfortunately, our government really doesnt either, so were all just screwed for the time being.

I love how everyone thinks this died. That's not true at all. 4 year ago I had stem cells put in my back as part of my spinal fusion.

You are a rarity. Im really curious about this, wana go into some detail? My statement still however holds true. The ability for researchers to acquire stem cells was severely hampered.
Modified by 480sx at 11:46 AM 3/7/2009

[OriginalWheelman]

Calling medical and science research a business isnt exactly accurate. While there is a big chance for big money, thats usually not the case. They are the cutting edge our society needs to progress in all fields of science, be it medical or otherwise.

Bailout?! Please.

Take for instance, the Toyota Prius. Ignore the fact that they suck( ). IIRC, 100 percent of its development was funded by the Japanese government. Now, Toyota is a leader in hybrid technology, and Japan has seen a significant increase in their GDP based on just that government 'bailout'. Toyota cant even make these cars fast enough there is such a demand for them world wide.

Now think about all the federal grants that have been given to oncologists, psychologists, along with a whole plethora of other medical and scientific and medical studies. Without those grants, who knows how far behind we would be. But because we had them, we have pretty much the most advanced health care in the world in most fields.

People did research before the government started handing out money. They would get investors by pitching their ideas to people with money, and they would decide if they had something worth investing THEIR money in. Now we forcibly TAKE the money from these people, and let someone else decide how to spend it.

Imagine for a second that stem cell research takes off, and 10 years from now we are able to cure lets say.. Paralysis. Lets say we beat everyone else to it, because generally speaking America is the cutting edge in a lot of things(unfortunately for us we seem to be falling behind because of military spending). Imagine the influx of people world wide that would come to America for treatment. This helps EVERYONE.

Show me how the lack of government funding has hindered stem cell research. Bush did not stop stem cell research in the US. He simply DENIED FEDERAL FUNDING. These people can still come to the US for the treatment. Your example means nothing.

Again, there is a reason we dont have a direct democracy. People dont know whats good for them. Unfortunately, our government really doesnt either, so were all just screwed for the time being.

This is why i want the government out of the loop. Leave research private, let private firms / citizens fund it. The government has no reason to be involved.

You are a rarity. Im really curious about this, wana go into some detail? My statement still however holds true. The ability for researchers to acquire stem cells was severely hampered. Modified by 480sx at 11:46 AM 3/7/2009

When I had my surgery, I had the option of a standard spinal fusion, with my cages filled with cadaver bone, or Bone Morphogenic Protien. The BMP cut my heal time down by months. I was up and walking within a week of my fusion.

[480sx]

People did research before the government started handing out money. They would get investors by pitching their ideas to people with money, and they would decide if they had something worth investing THEIR money in. Now we forcibly TAKE the money from these people, and let someone else decide how to spend it.

Indeed they did. However, since the government has stepped in and started offering grants for promising research, technology has advanced exponentially. It could be a coincidence, really. However you cant deny that government grants have helped advance just about every field of research.

Show me how the lack of government funding has hindered stem cell research. Bush did not stop stem cell research in the US. He simply DENIED FEDERAL FUNDING. These people can still come to the US for the treatment.

You skimmed my post, and you dont know everything about what bush did to hinder stem cell research. He did not just simply deny federal funding for the research, he made the acquisition of the most readily available and useful stem cells illegal. No one comes to the US for stem cell treatment, other countries are light years ahead of us. At least, as far as we the people know.

Your example means nothing.

No.

It shows what kind of potential a government supported stem cell research policy could have. Shows how we all would benefit by such a policy. Again, the USA is way behind in the stem cell department. If we were to take federal money and back researchers along with private grants (majority of where the money comes from anyway), we could become a leader in stem cell treatment in i would say under 10 years.

This is why i want the government out of the loop. Leave research private, let private firms / citizens fund it. The government has no reason to be involved.

This is your opinion. I disagree. I believe that anything thats good for everyone, such as stem cell research, should be supported by everyone. There arnt many people who wouldnt mind a fraction of a cent from their pay checks going to stem cell research that could potentially save, extend, or make their lives better one day.

When I had my surgery, I had the option of a standard spinal fusion, with my cages filled with cadaver bone, or Bone Morphogenic Protien. The BMP cut my heal time down by months. I was up and walking within a week of my fusion.

Awesome

[DroptopDrifting]

i just need to point out, i dont like other people telling me what to spend my money on. i dont wanna fund stem cell research, but by the gov't doing it, it's forcing me to with my tax dollars. japan's gdp didnt increase because of their hybrid cars. not at all. they were coming out of their "lost decade" and industry started to grow in all. an increase in one industry alone cannot cause a jump in GDP. it was also due to the fact they opened up to more imports lowering tariffs. remember aggregate output = consumption, investment, spending, and net exports. they started to invest a whole lot more outside of their nation and started returnin mass profits from the united states, so their people had more money to spend domestically as well, increasing industry spending, thus exporting even more comparable to a jump their economy took in the 1980's. a simple basic macroeconomics course shoulda taught you that, japan is like the prime example macroeconomics at work that everyone uses as an example of what we put into place after the great depression to ever stop one from happening again.

this is just another example of big brother dippin their hands where it dont belong. this goes against the very concept our forefather, minus john adams, believed in. they were all states rightests for the people. theres a reason adams only served one term before the people voted jefferson in. they didnt want a giant federalist nation. that all changed in the 1860's when we voted the first GOP into office, which back then was more like the democrats of today. The GOP was like the new federalist party, in the idea that that the federal government should expand and have more control. when the south didn't like the idea, or most of the policies the federal gov't had to offer, they wanted to secede. i don't blame them. it was the fact that the GOP party took arms, took the first strike, and eventually took the south in war, that we have such a strong federal gov't. the only reason the north supported this party is because he was offering a spread of wealth from the rich, who was mostly southern plantation owners, to the poor, who were the uneducated laborers up north living in city slums. then when the north realized they couldnt win this war, they had to come up with new tactics. they ended up getting southern blacks to rise up and take arms by offering their freedom and a full end to slavery if they helped battle. i hate to say it, but from what i've studied in history, honest abe wasnt so honest....

historians consider there to be 2 era's in our country, pre civil war and post civil war. and i just explained why. if you even look at a college course guide, that's always how american history has been looked at.

there's way too much dead weight in the gov't. 2/3 of the fed. gov't is the IRS. seriously, is that necessary? i don't get it, the gov't just keeps getting bigger and bigger. soon everyone will be workin for the gov't and we'll be a complete socialist nation. we already have a china who owns securities and most of our national debt. now our lovely president offered to drop the missile defense shield if russia "helps with intel on iran". i mean, seriously? why doesn't he just say "here ya go, have fun invading the satellite nations and i'll bring the champagne when the soviet union has risen again. This guy is repeating the mistakes of history. he's the type of guy who never actually did the research papers in college, he was just too damn good at BS'ing his way through he always got good grades.

just remember, this 800bil. stimulus plan for us actually means about 1.4 trillion dollars for China, after interest and spending. i do not feel this was necessary. the dow is at the same point it was in 1997, but clinton never scared the s*** out of the people. he swung right by just stayin laissez faire and letting the economy just work it's course. by the end of 1998 we were fine again. honestly, i'll give credit to where it's deserved. i might not have been a big fan of clinton, but he did the right thing in that scenario. obama on the other hand is scaring the s*** outta our people. people dont know what to do. they dont know whether they should save, spend, invest, etc. so they're just not doing anything. i understand it was rough when all the balloon mortgages/subprime imploded but there was other ways to go about dealing with this. im not even getting into that, thats another thread on here.

as far as stem cell research, it'd be nice to be able to grow new fresh organs, but you know the masses are sooo gonna abuse this technology. skinheads will make sure all their kids are blonde haired/blue eyes, lol. but not even that, you're gonna have gov't's genetically engineering soldiers, maybe even big multi billion dollar corps engineering their workers. and with the change of dna comes with the mutating of viruses, new ones and old ones that have changed, which might be far worse than the s*** we got today. over centuries we've dealt with stuff like ebola, bubola, small pox, whooping cough, etc. with genetically new organs, or even full grown humans or clones, comes a new wave of mutating virii. theres been a ton of research done on this.

i'm just curious as to where some of you get your information. I'm an international business major with a minor in economics and world markets. what i see on here a lot is just a bunch of jibberish the news reporters on tv might dish out, but they have no idea what they're talking about. they just know how to read a teleprompter. honestly, the best way to really dive into economics head first is to get a subscription to WSJ. i get the paper every day. obviously the editorials will always be biased, but for the most part it's pure facts and data. it lets you look at the data, via charts and historical facts, and analyze it for yourself. hong kong has a online journal now that touches on their markets and the world market pretty well. http://www.hkjournal.org/ its edited by Robert Keatley, former editor of The Asian Wall Street Journal, The Wall Street Journal Europe and the South China Morning Post of Hong Kong. its good to stay updated on the world markets, tells us a lot about our own. everyone should check em out atleast once a week

ok, i can go on for hours, but im done here for now.

[480sx]

K. With business majors in the room, Japan did not increase their GDP based on the prius alone. However, their investment into their own company via 'grants' or 'bailouts' paid off 10 times over. Thats all i was trying to say.

Federalists and anti federalists were the major players in the making of the constitution, and where most of the debates started. Between those two fundamentally different view points. You should read 'The Founding Brothers', probably one of the best books on the era of the framers of the constitution. Easy, good read.

[DroptopDrifting]

they really didnt give much money to toyota at all, if any. the jap gov't created the Resolution and Collection Corp to handle the disposal of loans that weren't being repaid. this was in 1999. Japan's government was able to recoup a sizable amount of public outlays by selling loan collateral, most often land. the process has taken years and still isn't over. The net public cost was 18 trillion yen, or about $168 billion, according to the Financial Services Agency. the Japanese gov't has, and admits this, no idea what they're doing when it comes to their real estate crises of the early 90's. All told, Japan spent 560 trillion yen, or $6 trillion, on public works from 1991 to 2007 - leaving the government with huge budget deficits today.

basically what i was saying is, whatever money they might have given toyota, doesn't make a difference on the larger scale. in the end, they never truly recovered, they just shifted the debt to a government deficit with a ton of wasted tax dollars.

[smockers83]

Stem cell research coupled with a sensible health plan will eventually raise the health care standards of the entire world.

Stem cell research, sure. A sensible health plan? I guess that depends on your idea of sensible. Public health care has degraded health care in all countries that it has been adopted. Plus it crowds out investment. If the government imposed public health care now, there would be hardly any sector left in the stock market with optimism.

[DroptopDrifting]

japans annual real GDP:

http://www.econstats.com/japcab/japcab_q6.htm

look how erratic it is with such little growth. consumption, exports and expenditures keep goin up, but yet investment is wayyyyy down. and this is talking base 1994 so it's not due to the recent recession, it just builds on it in the past few years. japan was not really hit until 2006, as per the chart here:http://www.econstats.com/japcab/japcab_q6.htmit's just having an economic slowdown, as are we and half the world. as you can see with the GDP, Real GDP, and GNP of Japan, and our own, comparing both to the 1990's around 1997 it's pretty similar.the GDP Deflator should be pretty low. everyone was just scared because of our stupid media and our retarded gov't telling them that the apocalypse is coming if you dont pass spending bills, and repeat japans mistakes.

school funding for economic and gov't courses should be increased, it's amazing how misinformed people are.

[DroptopDrifting]

Stem cell research, sure. A sensible health plan? I guess that depends on your idea of sensible. Public health care has degraded health care in all countries that it has been adopted. Plus it crowds out investment. If the government imposed public health care now, there would be hardly any sector left in the stock market with optimism.

dont forget how many jobs will be lost in the insurance sector. and how many people will die because they have to wait on a 2 year waiting list for a simple operation because illegal immigrants are ahead of you on that list, and people who don't need it as bad. or the medications that won't be offered anymore because it costs too much for the gov't. and the tons of research and development that will no longer be funded by the private sector. oh, and don't forget how obama has said he wants to give money for every doctor and hospital to upgrade to full computer networks and unify a set of procedures per ailment. which means doctors will have to abide by a set rule of procedures to go by vs. certain symptoms shown, even if the doctor knows he should be acting quickly to do something else, or the patient can die. then theres the fact that all the great docs like the ones right here in new york will go elsewhere, where they can operate freely, and make the money they rightfully deserve.

socialized healthcare can work in smaller countries, and less developed, but not here. we are the world leaders in research and development and that ceasing alone will undermine healthcare on a worldly level.

[480sx]

basically what i was saying is, whatever money they might have given toyota, doesn't make a difference on the larger scale. in the end, they never truly recovered, they just shifted the debt to a government deficit with a ton of wasted tax dollars.

Since im not talking about this on a large scale(something that you have come out of left field with), there is no relevance here. I made a statement that backed up my argument, and you took it wayyyy out of context and are now throwing out random arguments at alarming rates.

This isnt an economics thread. There is a few of those floating around. Go play over there and stop throwing stones.

[OriginalWheelman]

a set of procedures per ailment. which means doctors will have to abide by a set rule of procedures to go by vs. certain symptoms shown,

If this is where health care is going I'm going to become a cyborg so I can see my mechanic.

[audtatious]

There was an interesting segment on 20/20 last night about dentists

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/s...age=1

Lots of neglect and fraud as a way to make money. One of the kids on the show had 16 "baby root canals". This is what we look forward to with UH.

[audtatious]

If this is where health care is going I'm going to become a cyborg so I can see my mechanic.

That's the way it's going to be. My wife will have a much easier job as a RN because she won't have to give as much quality care. The patient gets "X,Y,Z" and that's that. Still in pain after a shot? Deal with it as you have the amount the Gov says you should.

The Gov thinks they are financial experts, they think they are environmental experts and they will put themselves in the seat of a doctor as well.....It's for your own good.

[audtatious]

Oh, and as far as embryonic stem cell research? Just pay the babies mamas some money for each successful abortion they can have. Why not?

[smockers83]

The embryos for stem cell research are embryos that are going to be discarded anyhow. The embryonic banks that store them for birthing purposes do have to get rid of some, whether they are in excess or what.

[audtatious]

That's not my point. This can be a way to get more money into the hands of the poor.

It does not matter that nobody has found any successful use for embryonic stem cells.....Throw enough money at it and maybe someone will get lucky.

[Bubs daddy]

Quote »Stem cell research coupled with a sensible health plan will eventually raise the health care standards of the entire world.

[/quote]Define sensible. I like my health plan, thank you very much. Many dignitaries and others from other countries come HERE to have procedures done.

Our health care in the U.S. is second to none.

[bobotech]

[smockers83]

That's not my point.

I was just saying, putting it out there. I wasn't saying it in regards to your post.

[480sx]

Bobo that cartoon is moronic from a political standpoint.

[Jesda]

Bobo that cartoon is moronic from a political standpoint.

The comparison is between slavery by citizens and slavery by government. Both forms of servitude were approved by the majority for a time. I know you can interpret cartoons, but you were being obtuse.

[Armelius]

The comparison is between slavery by citizens and slavery by government. Both forms of servitude were approved by the majority for a time. I know you can interpret cartoons, but you were being obtuse.

I don't see that cartoon from a slavery standpoint but one of property. Then, people owned people. Now, the government owns us.

I am not into big government taking care of me like I was in the military. I am not sure what is really planned. Whatever it is, I won't like it.

[liquid_cool]

What about the massive amount of grants given out by the federal government to further medical, science, engineering, ect research? Im talking.. Massive amounts of it, to so many different causes.

With something that has the promise that stem cell research holds, its in the peoples best interest to have that research be accelerated by federal grants.

Your right, the research was never stopped. However, the ability for researchers to get their hands on stem cells was so inhibited by the bush administration it might as well have been stopped.

angrys rite...but what you all may not be aware of is that the grownup stemcells from the patient can be used insted of fetal stemcells...they actually have had better results with stemcells from the persons body to use in treatments as there is no possibility of rejection to them...they are allso growing skin and making replacement nose's and ear's with no rejection by using the persons own stemcells..to i agree with the reaserch..you bet..but not from a fetus...

as for this helping a federal run health system..ask the sweeds if they like there's and the 20% sales tax..and the line they wait in only to pay out of pocket just to see a doctor...ask them