Obama overturns stem cell research stance

[audtatious]

Kinda depends on the worth of the Constitution. The court system has ruled that "enemy combatants" have the right to trial by our court system (and sometimes access to "national security" information for their trials) even if they are not on US soil nor US citizens. Even Obama has tried to suppress this (use of "secret" information during a trial) and failed.

[Cold_Zero]

That is great that they can have a trial in our courts and be charged with a crime. I was speaking more from the standpoint of holding them and forcefully extracting information. Something that could not be done to you (as a US Citizen).

[OriginalWheelman]

Go ahead and explain to me how "exploration" and "research" are not in any way synonyms. Take your time, I've got all day.

Research - n.

1. Scholarly or scientific investigation or inquiry. See synonyms at inquiry. 2. Close, careful study.

Exploration - n.

The act or an instance of exploring

Gaining a greater understanding of genetics has myriad applications beyond simply current consumer products. Many of these are applications that the government would have a vested interest in. If you want to review ALL potential applications and prove conclusively that I am wrong by addressing each one individually, go ahead. If not, you lose.

I lose? I have an opinion.

No it isn't. Space superiority "benefits the US'. Health advances that could lead to battlefield medicine breakthroughs or healthcare-related global trade balance gains "benefit the US". Use your imagination.

Lack of itchy toes "benefits the US". Better deodorant "benefits the US". I still don't believe that either should be paid for with public money.

[audtatious]

Personally, I don't think it is great that they can have a trial by US court systems as that actually seems to overstep the boundaries outlined in the Constitution.

[Cold_Zero]

It would appear that Chris is using the same argument that Slave Holders did in relation to the Slavery in the United States.

The issue is really closer to a pendulum swinging. Obviously the pendulum swung from the middle (dead Neutral) to the other end.

Someday, one or many of the branches of the Federal Government may change their mind and the pendulum could swing back the other way.

[ishkabibble]

But do you disagree with my assertion?

Yes. Banning federal funding of embryonic stem cell funding was a token policy change to appease his theology-driven "base" that got him in office.

Probably not. But if Obama screws up this country as bad as Bush apparently did, then it will fall out of favor and Obama will be the new whipping boy.

Obama may screw things up, but he won't be viewed like Bush because he somewhat respects the Constitution and does not govern by "I'm the decider" and "voices tell me what do do"

To be honest, I don’t give a f*** if my federal tax dollars or Government takes enemy non combatants and holds them up in Gitmo and uses harsh interrogation tactics to extract information. These people are not US citizens, they were not picked up in the US and are not covered under the US Constitution.

Don't whine if your kids are ever wrongly imprisoned, tortured by a foreign government, and you don't see them for years. What? Never thought if it like that, did you?

Exploration - n.

The act or an instance of exploring

Explore - v.

Research.

[OriginalWheelman]

Explore - v.

Research.

Explore - v., -plored, -plor·ing, -plores.

v.tr.

1. To investigate systematically; examine: explore every possibility. 2. To search into or travel in for the purpose of discovery: exploring outer space. 3. Medicine. To examine for diagnostic purposes.

[ishkabibble]

Sorry, you lose.

[Cold_Zero]

Don't whine if your kids are ever wrongly imprisoned, tortured by a foreign government, and you don't see them for years. What? Never thought if it like that, did you?

Even if America was the most pious country on earth and treated all people's foreign and domestic with the highest measure of rights, doesnt change the fact that other countries don't give us (Americans) the same rights. I am not an idiot. Any time you travel to a foreign country you need to be aware of your right (or lack there of) as a non citizen in a foreign country. But hey, don't whine I was being facetious in using Hash's argument against him. What? Never thought about it that way.. Did you?

Stop being so condescending, or just get the f*** out of this sub forum.

[liquid_cool]

Meh, learn(or unlearn ) something every day. I seriously searched for the sources, i must have misread something in the distant past.

It is as you say, the falsehood of 'Bush stopped stem cell research". Most people believe it, it was hyped up to be that way when it wasnt really true at all.

However, there is still a bit of a moral issue here with Bush's limit of federal funding in the first place. But i suppose its done and over with, because BO has reversed the EO. In reality, it really wasnt much of an issue to begin with that was used as hard core ammunition for the left against Bush.

Modified by 480sx at 3:52 PM 3/9/2009

the problem i see, is with the government funding anything!..its not there business,according to the original constitution...the government should have limited powers..for a reason..and they should butt out and let the private sector see if it is financially viable to continue reaserch of this type.

[OriginalWheelman]

Sorry, you lose.

Why because I linked a real definition instead of your arbitrary one?

[ishkabibble]

Why because I linked a real definition instead of your arbitrary one?

http://wordnetweb.princeton.ed...plore

Princeton synonym not good enough for you?

You didn't link squat. Quit trying to weasel.

[HashiriyaS14]

How smug Chris, I kind of expect more from you.

To be honest, I don’t give a f*** if my federal tax dollars or Government takes enemy non combatants and holds them up in Gitmo and uses harsh interrogation tactics to extract information. These people are not US citizens, they were not picked up in the US and are not covered under the US Constitution. So the people that disagreed with the former Executive Office's interpretations of what is torture and who can be held without US constitutional rights , then maybe they just needed to ‘Fall down a well and die?” I guess if we are using the Federal Government’s interpretation of what is and is not right and prudent to engage in as a country, we probably need to rethink our objections.

I just think it's a funny expression, don't get your panties in a twist over it.

I was simply trying to articulate the point that pro-lifers need to stop being surprised/abhored every time the Obama Administration or either legislative house (or the US Supreme Court) makes a move/decision that appears to be in a pro-choice direction.

All three branches (Obama by his own admission, both legislatures by majority, and USC by it's refusal to overturn RvW) effectively lie on the "pro-choice" side. Obviously, this is America, and everyone is free to disagree with those in power (thank goodness), but I suppose I'm just a little tired of the pro-life side raising a clamor every time we get a decision like this. It's going to happen, it's going to keep happening so long as the Democrats are in power. Get used to it.

If you want it to stop happening, then make your party more inclusive, stop allowing morons like Limbaugh to dictate your political position to you, become electable again, and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

I hate a vocal minority. Vocal minorities are f**king annoying. Furthemore, in America, being a vocal principled minority doesn't get you anywhere, that isn't how our country works. Stop being a vocal principled minority and become inclusive, compromise, convince others, become the majority, and create change. Otherwise, STFU*

*Not directed at you, obviously. Just my further rantings on the downward spiral of the American Right.

EDIT: My intention was NOT to say "the government is doing X and so X must be right" (i.e. the slavery comparison). I just don't want to hear the pro-lifers whine about it anymore when they're not doing any of the right things to actually change it. It frustrates me to see them go nuts every time a pro-life position is eroded despite the fact that they are effectively responsible for ruining the only party that would give them a chance to change the situation.

MOAR EDIT: I changed the ridiculous inflammatory title of this thread. Telco, if you keep making thread titles like that, I'm going to start signing your email up for gay p0rn spam. Don't be a tool.

[audtatious]

MOAR EDIT: I changed the ridiculous inflammatory title of this thread. Telco, if you keep making thread titles like that, I'm going to start signing your email up for gay p0rn spam. Don't be a tool.

The Mod has spoken

[marlin29311]

http://wordnetweb.princeton.ed...plore

Princeton synonym not good enough for you?

You didn't link squat. Quit trying to weasel.

synonym

You just fell on your own sword dude...

[WDRacing]

Out of all the things the Gov spends money on, are people seriously upset that stem cell research is one of them? Grab a glove and get off the bench...there are far better causes to support. Stem cell research can and WILL help the American people. If my tax dollars go towards possibly helping my children someday...then by all means...press on. Better then me paying banks and GM for...well nothing other then f'in up for the past 4-5 years. At Least stem cells are something I can benefit from.

Don't wanna use dead baby cells? Let me ask why. Lets take this dead baby, right before I toss it into the furnace, I wanna insert a needle and remove some stem cells. If I take the stem cells I can possibly help every American alive today. Or not take them and just toss the dead baby into the fire. Either way the dead baby goes into the fire. Yeah...we should be real upset about this. Perhaps the dead baby would rather help his fellow Americans before he is tossed into the fire. Perhaps this dead baby could have saved his brother/sister from some debilitating disease. Don't you think the dead baby would choose to help over just being tossed into the fire anyway? No...

Also...why are we even talking about Bush. The only thing he did was not give federal funding for this. He didn't pass any laws saying you couldn't do your own research. He just wasn't going to pay for it. Different administrations have different policies...welcome to Politics.

[HashiriyaS14]

Don't wanna use dead baby cells? Let me ask why. Lets take this dead baby, right before I toss it into the furnace, I wanna insert a needle and remove some stem cells. If I take the stem cells I can possibly help every American alive today. Or not take them and just toss the dead baby into the fire. Either way the dead baby goes into the fire. Yeah...we should be real upset about this. Perhaps the dead baby would rather help his fellow Americans before he is tossed into the fire. Perhaps this dead baby could have saved his brother/sister from some debilitating disease. Don't you think the dead baby would choose to help over just being tossed into the fire anyway? No...

It's too bad this is so long, or I'd totally sig it.

[audtatious]

Also...why are we even talking about Bush. The only thing he did was not give federal funding for this. He didn't pass any laws saying you couldn't do your own research. He just wasn't going to pay for it. Different administrations have different policies...welcome to Politics.

viewpoints aside, you hit the nail on the head. This whole issue has simply been polarized to further slap a religious label on Bush regardless of truth.

[Cold_Zero]

EDIT: My intention was NOT to say "the government is doing X and so X must be right" (i.e. the slavery comparison). I just don't want to hear the pro-lifers whine about it anymore when they're not doing any of the right things to actually change it. It frustrates me to see them go nuts every time a pro-life position is eroded despite the fact that they are effectively responsible for ruining the only party that would give them a chance to change the situation.

The problem with your previous statement is that using an Abortion Stance on how the Federal Government views when life begins totally fails to recognize that in the issue of abortion, the Federal Government does not allow free reign in the activity. It is pretty heavily regulated. But your intention is point well taken and clarified.

Don't you think that the Pro-Life movement has come a long way from gunning down abortion providers and bombing clinics in the 1970’s and 1980’s? This all done (oh my!) by the vocal condemnation of the Pro-Life movement themselves! Again, this is very akin to a Pendulum swinging back and forth. Obviously, the pendulum just swung back to the left from being at dead center. This issue and the abortion issue has been stalemated for a very long time because neither side is willing to make any concessions, even though I can make a case that the pro-lifers have conceded in recognizing viable reasons to keep abortion legal (Rape, Incest, Mother's Health). But hey, you get my point in how people are dead set in their views.

The biggest problem that I have with the other side on the Embryonic Stem Cell Research issue is the mania that is invoked to push our country into full bore research. As if embryonic testing is the ‘Holy Grail.’ I guess I have to ask, why now? They have been making head way with Umbilical Cord Blood and adult human stem cells. I am also staunchly opposed to cultivating embryonic stem cells for scientific purposes. Something that Obama may have thought he touched on with his warning on reproductive cloning statement, but missed the mark. Reproductive cloning would imply that you bring an embryo to full term. It does not refer to cultivating of embryonic stem cells. Had he made his statement clear and re-assured people of what areas were are not going to get into, then he may have had a better reaction about his signing. If you demystify the issue, then people don’t react so boldly.

You will be happy to know that when my daughter was born, I signed the paper work to allow the stem cells from the umbilical cord to be collected and used for research. So see, us Pro-Lifers Christians aren’t unreasonable.

[WDRacing]

The biggest problem that I have with the other side on the Embryonic Stem Cell Research issue is the mania that is invoked to push our country into full bore research. As if embryonic testing is the ‘Holy Grail.’ I guess I have to ask, why now?

The answer is simple...why not? No one is saying that dead baby stem cells are the key to the future or that it's the "Holy Grail". It's just another avenue to pursue with no viable reasons for NOT pursuing it.

It doesn't matter why now. It doesn't matter if people are over excited about it either. It only matters that they ARE excited and that it COULD benefit everyone on the planet.

EDIT

On a personal level, the last 3 generations of men in my family have died of Alzheimer's. They withered away to nothing and died alone. Thank God I have friends that will stick a hot needle in my arm and shoot a couple hundred bucks of great heroin into me before I get that bad. But I really prefer to not get that bad. Since early onset could be in 10 friggin years for me...I'd like to see my youngest at least graduate HS before I can't remember who he is. Stem cell research is one of the things I'm hoping can change my almost inevitable future. So yeah, I'm glad some my taxes are going to help me rather then disappear into the damn void like they usually do.

[audtatious]

Actually, the Bush decision has been portrayed as him stopping stem cell research with embryonic stem cell research actually being the "holy grail". If you look at posts here over the last week or so it goes to show that a large number of people thought embryonic stem cell research was outlawed by Bush or something. That's far from the case and once they are aware they seem to wonder what the big "to do" was with it since universities and others are actually doing research in that field.

[WDRacing]

I'm just glad it'll be federally funded now, for obvious reasons.

[audtatious]

I don't see why it has to be fed funded as breakthroughs in the research will make some team or company a whole lotta money.

Granted, I had rather use money for these style research initiatives instead of hundreds of millions on free condoms.

[WDRacing]

I don't see why it has to be fed funded as breakthroughs in the research will make some team or company a whole lotta money.

Granted, I had rather use money for these style research initiatives instead of hundreds of millions on free condoms.

The more money available for something the easier and farther research dollars will go. That and we spend millions on other crap every quarter. This could benefit ME directly. Call me biased...but I'd rather see tax dollars go here then to say...the Welfare system.

[telcoman]

I don't see why it has to be fed funded as breakthroughs in the research will make some team or company a whole lotta money.

Granted, I had rather use money for these style research initiatives instead of hundreds of millions on free condoms.

In kindergarten they show you how to hold a pencil.

Condoms should be free in every public high school and college along with instructions on how to use them. Whether federally funded or state funded, if you want to reduce teen pregnancy and abortion it is cheaper than supporting unwanted children.

Gee if only Bristol Palen had parents and went to a school that taught her safe sex.

Telcoman

[Cold_Zero]

You gave me a great idea Howie. If they want to cut down on kids accidently shooting others with firearms, why not give the children free guns and teach them how to use it? We can teach them to be safe operators of firearms and not to point them at others or put their fingers on the triggers. It would be great! Think of all the accidental shootings we could prevent with this new program.

[Cold_Zero]

The more money available for something the easier and farther research dollars will go. That and we spend millions on other crap every quarter. This could benefit ME directly. Call me biased...but I'd rather see tax dollars go here then to say...the Welfare system.

Hey, call me biased, but I would rather have the money spent on Embryonic Stem Cell Research and on Safe Sex Condom Programs be poured in to the FFEL (Federal Family Education Loan) program to subsidized student loans for kids to go to school. Obama has already said he is cutting this program.bud

[audtatious]

The more money available for something the easier and farther research dollars will go. That and we spend millions on other crap every quarter. This could benefit ME directly. Call me biased...but I'd rather see tax dollars go here then to say...the Welfare system.

You are correct. BUT, with the way things are today, I have to argue to cut spending until the economy is repaired.

[audtatious]

You gave me a great idea Howie. If they want to cut down on kids accidently shooting others with firearms, why not give the children free guns and teach them how to use it? We can teach them to be safe operators of firearms and not to point them at others or put their fingers on the triggers. It would be great! Think of all the accidental shootings we could prevent with this new program.

How about extending that to safe pot smoking, crack, cocaine and heroin use as well.

[audtatious]

Gee if only Bristol Palen had parents and went to a school that taught her safe sex.

Telcoman

No, she should have just practiced safe abortion like the rest of society is doing. I know, we should implant the gay gene in the next couple generations of kids so we don't have to worry about pregnancy at all..