Obama overturns stem cell research stance

[liquid_cool]

If this is where health care is going I'm going to become a cyborg so I can see my mechanic.

thats friggin awsome..lol..good statement man..im dying of laughter.

[DroptopDrifting]

Since im not talking about this on a large scale(something that you have come out of left field with), there is no relevance here. I made a statement that backed up my argument, and you took it wayyyy out of context and are now throwing out random arguments at alarming rates.

This isnt an economics thread. There is a few of those floating around. Go play over there and stop throwing stones.

what are you talkin about? you're the one who talked about how toyota helped japan's GDP. GDP is large scale. Gross Domestic Product. it doesn't get any larger than that. that is as large scale as it gets.

Take for instance, the Toyota Prius. Ignore the fact that they suck( ). IIRC, 100 percent of its development was funded by the Japanese government. Now, Toyota is a leader in hybrid technology, and Japan has seen a significant increase in their GDP based on just that government 'bailout'. Toyota cant even make these cars fast enough there is such a demand for them world wide.

i didn't come out of anywhere with this "large scale" economics you talk about. you're the one who brought up how some sorta bailout to toyota helped japan's GDP, which is all kinda pulled outta thin air since it's so far from the truth. YOU are the one who started talking about large scale. i think you're confusing yourself at this point. it's ok, it happens to most liberals i talk to.

now if you wanted to talk about the CPI of the automobile industry in japan, or toyota specifically, sure that'd be more specific and not such a large scale. but when talking about GDP, Real GDP, or GDP Deflator, you're talkin about the country as a whole, which is as large scale as it gets. But even with the CPI, there's no evidence of any bailout ever doing anything for toyota. in fact, toyota has always done the best in japan. i mean sure, everyone has slumps, but toyota was always ranked #1 in japan, nissan #2, honda #3 in an economical standpoint.

[ishkabibble]

It does not matter that nobody has found any successful use for embryonic stem cells....

Standard RINO talking point. Without embryonic stem cell research, research into other types of stems cells doesn't go anywhere. There is your successful use.

People get all upset over embryonic stem cell research, yet keep their yaps shut about the fact that the embryos are destroyed, whether they are researched or not. I would guess that few of them even understand how embryonic stem cell research works.

As for government-funded research, I agree in part with Wheelman that the government should not be handing money over to private industries do do research. I do feel that the government should be doing its own research and turning the results over to the public, though. The for-profit medical industry only cares about something they can make massive profits off of, so in order for a health care system to be all-encompassing, there does need to be a bit of a public element.

[ishkabibble]

socialized healthcare can work in smaller countries, and less developed, but not here.

What rationale are you using to make this statement? Many developed countries have socialized heath care and the citizens find it decent (though the right wing disinformation spread around the US would have you believe otherwise.)

2/3 of the fed. gov't is the IRS.

Where are you getting this statistic? DOD is the largest part of the government, by far. http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/cgs041.htm

[Jesda]

Hybrid sales are down. Way down, and not just in tandem with the decline in other auto sales. The fluctuating cost of fuel has had a negative effect on the desirability of more expensive hybrid powertrains.

They're piling up on container ships because Toyota can't sell them quickly enough.

[Jesda]

Standard RINO talking point. Without embryonic stem cell research, research into other types of stems cells doesn't go anywhere. There is your successful use.

Do you know what a RINO is? A RINO is a republican that acts like a Democrat. Republican In Name Only.

A traditional Republican (which likely does not exist anymore) would oppose government funded research and would oppose the government doing its own research, leaving it entirely to the private sector to develop its own profitable cures without federal support OR restriction.

A RINO would want stem cell research federally funded (unnecessary use of public resources to a traditional Republican).

[480sx]

Droptop - I corrected myself with my use of the term GDP. Here. Just in case you missed it.

K. With business majors in the room, Japan did not increase their GDP based on the prius alone. However, their investment into their own company via 'grants' or 'bailouts' paid off 10 times over. Thats all i was trying to say.

So your not only arguing a ghost of a position(based on my misuse of a term), you also still took my argument way out of context to go off on some economical tirade thats completely meaningless to this thread.

Way to label me in a day. Your right brain fails.

Jesda - I was unaware of the current Prius situation. I know last year their sales were through the roof.
Modified by 480sx at 11:44 AM 3/8/2009

[ishkabibble]

Do you know what a RINO is? A RINO is a republican that acts like a Democrat. Republican In Name Only.

A traditional Republican (which likely does not exist anymore)

So it is a RINO talking point? Thanks.

The stem cell debate is not about federally funded this or that, it is about morality.

[audtatious]

Jesda - I was unaware of the current Prius situation. I know last year their sales were through the roof.

Toyota has asked for a 2 billion (us) loan recently. They are suffering like all the others.

[liquid_cool]

Do you know what a RINO is? A RINO is a republican that acts like a Democrat. Republican In Name Only.

A traditional Republican (which likely does not exist anymore) would oppose government funded research and would oppose the government doing its own research, leaving it entirely to the private sector to develop its own profitable cures without federal support OR restriction.

A RINO would want stem cell research federally funded (unnecessary use of public resources to a traditional Republican).

BINGO!..two thumbs for that one man..nail on the head...the only reason they want to fund it..is to controll it..you can controll say the medical sector better by holding a restriction to that reaserch unless they comply say in another area..for more controll to said government agency....its all about controll.

[audtatious]

The stem cell debate is not about federally funded this or that, it is about morality.

Somewhat. In 2001 Bush gave approval to allow fed funding of the 60+ existing lines of stem cells:

''I have concluded that we should allow federal funds to be used for research on these existing stem cell lines, where the life and death decision has already been made,''

Since testing of adult stem cells does not require an embryos death then you could say it was a decision based upon morality. Of course, there is still the pesky lefty-talk that Bush disallowed all stem cell research which is totally false.

[liquid_cool]

So it is a RINO talking point? Thanks.

The stem cell debate is not about federally funded this or that, it is about morality.

a stem cell is a stemcell man..ither from a fetus or not..they do the same thing...the only difference from a regular cell is that stemm cells become what ever cell there next to or created to be...there has been no evidence at all that embryo stemcells are better than a 20year olds stemcells..there is no real point in using embryonic stem cells at all if the host cell used if from the donor anyways....get past the morality and look at the actual science of it...mature stemcells have lead the way in develoupment of some serious medicines...not embryonic stemcells.

[480sx]

mature stemcells have lead the way in develoupment of some serious medicines...not embryonic stemcells.

Because there has been such limited research on embryonic stem cells. The potential for those specific stem cells is mind boggling, i dont need to get into it because if you know anything about stem cells at all you understand this.

[audtatious]

Uhm....There has been no limit to embryonic stem cell research. There has simply been no federal funding of it. Companies in the US and other countries have been working with all kinds of stem cells and have had no success with embryonic cells.

[480sx]

Limited, meaning not much of it. Again, acquiring embryonic stem cells was not easy. This was a direct result of some Bush legislation that was recently overturned by BO.

[audtatious]

No. Bush allowed fed funds for the 60+ lines only. He did not enact any law stating others could not test with their own lines of stem cells.

[480sx]

Im pretty damned sure that bush put into policy something that limited or even stopped the acquisition of embryonic stem cells. Ill try to find the sources later.

[audtatious]

He didn't. If you find something where he stated that nobody can test them at all (eg: private companies) then I would like to see it.

[audtatious]

You may find this interesting:

http://ora.stanford.edu/hesc/procedures.asp

"I. Human Embryonic Stem Cell Research Funding Issues

On August 9, 2001, President George W. Bush announced that federal funds may not be used for research using human embryonic stem cell (hESC) lines unless (1) the stem cells were derived from an embryo that was created for reproductive purposes and was no longer needed; (2) informed consent was obtained for the donation of the embryo, and the donation did not involve financial inducements; and (3) the process of derivation was begun prior to 9 pm EDT on August 9, 2001. "

Yes, Stanford is doing embryonic stem cell research and has for a number of years.

[Cold_Zero]

And much to 480SX's dismay, he will also find that states were free to spend as much money as they wanted to fund embryonic stem cell research. It was a big issue in the Missouri 2006 elections and I believe there was a referendum question on the issue.

I love how this move, by Obama, is being heralded as taking ideology out of Scientific Research. Is if you have some moral or religious view that you can not escape making it an ideological issue. But if you appear to have no moral or religious motivations then you are taking the ideology out of the issue. What a bunch of bull. This whole entire move is panning to certain groups that helped Obama get elected and an attempt to put ideology right back into the Embryonic Stem Cell Research issue. The whole move is an Ideological Statement. I maintain Bush's move did exactly that (removing ideology) by banning funding at the federal level and forcing states to decide how to proceed with the issue.

To be honest, in a time when President Obama scowering the budget looking for programs to cut and actualize savings I find it ironic that he plays this move. I mean, if the research is so lucrative and necessary, why aren't private companies and states rushing to fund these projects? In this economic crunch, why do this now?

I guess I have a problem with using human children (fetuses) as lab rats to perform scientific research, especially when more cures, medicine and research are successfully performed on Umbilical Cord stem cells and adult human stem cells. 'Change' that you can believe in is not re-hashing the previous ideology before GW Bush. I thought it was coming up with something new and non partisan to effect good changes in how our government operators. This just shows PBO is just 'More of the Same.'

[audtatious]

It's a play against the great falsehood of "and Bush stopped stem cell research". More uninformed people thinking the Great One has done something of importance for the common person.

[480sx]

Meh, learn(or unlearn ) something every day. I seriously searched for the sources, i must have misread something in the distant past.

It is as you say, the falsehood of 'Bush stopped stem cell research". Most people believe it, it was hyped up to be that way when it wasnt really true at all.

However, there is still a bit of a moral issue here with Bush's limit of federal funding in the first place. But i suppose its done and over with, because BO has reversed the EO. In reality, it really wasnt much of an issue to begin with that was used as hard core ammunition for the left against Bush.
Modified by 480sx at 3:52 PM 3/9/2009

[ishkabibble]

a stem cell is a stemcell man..ither from a fetus or not..

Wrong. Go take a basic biology class.

I maintain Bush's move did exactly that (removing ideology) by banning funding at the federal level and forcing states to decide how to proceed with the issue.

Yeah, Bush was really known to be driven by removing ideology from everything. He was a complex man that was really misunderstood. Decades from now, we will all understand what he was really trying to do and he will be heralded.

[Cold_Zero]

I know that you were just being facetious, even sarcastic. But do you disagree with my assertion? Or were you just trying to get your last digs in before the whole Bush bashing thing falls out of favor?

[480sx]

Doubt thats ever going to fall out of favor.

[Cold_Zero]

Probably not. But if Obama screws up this country as bad as Bush apparently did, then it will fall out of favor and Obama will be the new whipping boy. If not, Bush will be relegated to the Carter status.

[HashiriyaS14]

The government is not responsible for funding ANY research in my opinion, and should not be funding any. They are taking that money from WE THE PEOPLE and deciding to hand it our to a business. That's not better than a bail out. Let researchers find their own investors. Government funding research simply allows them to determine what is researched, IE the stem cell funding ban.

The answer may well be yes, but does this mean that you don't see any reason for the existence of NASA?

How about military research?

The US government can/should be able to engage in any research that can benefit the United States, as a business can/should be able to engage in any research that benefits that business.

If you don't want them engaging in a particular piece of research, don't vote for people that support it. Welcome to Democracy.

I don't really have a problem with federally funded stem cell research, just like I don't have a problem with federally-funded aeronautical or directed-energy weapons research.

As for people who oppose it not via fiscal grounds but on religious grounds......fall down a well and die? The current government across all three branches apparently does not agree that life begins at conception and thus the government is not going to conduct itself as such. Get used to that and expect it to apply to all relevant issues.

[OriginalWheelman]

The answer may well be yes, but does this mean that you don't see any reason for the existence of NASA?

How about military research?

NASA is an exploration agency. Space travel is already being commercialized, expect a space hotel operating in orbit within the decade. I'm not kidding.

http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/genesis_II/

Military research if for the military and therefore for the government. Entirely different than researching cures for athletes foot or social anxiety.

The US government can/should be able to engage in any research that can benefit the United States, as a business can/should be able to engage in any research that benefits that business.

"Benefits the US" is far too broad a term to be the determining factor.

If you don't want them engaging in a particular piece of research, don't vote for people that support it. Welcome to Democracy.

Or I can vote for people that think they way I do.

[HashiriyaS14]

NASA is an exploration agency. Space travel is already being commercialized, expect a space hotel operating in orbit within the decade. I'm not kidding.

Go ahead and explain to me how "exploration" and "research" are not in any way synonyms. Take your time, I've got all day.

Military research if for the military and therefore for the government. Entirely different than researching cures for athletes foot or social anxiety.

Gaining a greater understanding of genetics has myriad applications beyond simply current consumer products. Many of these are applications that the government would have a vested interest in. If you want to review ALL potential applications and prove conclusively that I am wrong by addressing each one individually, go ahead. If not, you lose.

"Benefits the US" is far too broad a term to be the determining factor.

No it isn't. Space superiority "benefits the US'. Health advances that could lead to battlefield medicine breakthroughs or healthcare-related global trade balance gains "benefit the US". Use your imagination.

Or I can vote for people that think they way I do.

Yep, that's just about exactly what I said.

The English language is tricky. Even though two words or sentences can read differently, they can in fact mean very similar things! REMARKABLE!

[Cold_Zero]

As for people who oppose it not via fiscal grounds but on religious grounds......fall down a well and die? The current government across all three branches apparently does not agree that life begins at conception and thus the government is not going to conduct itself as such. Get used to that and expect it to apply to all relevant issues.

How smug Chris, I kind of expect more from you.

To be honest, I don’t give a f*** if my federal tax dollars or Government takes enemy non combatants and holds them up in Gitmo and uses harsh interrogation tactics to extract information. These people are not US citizens, they were not picked up in the US and are not covered under the US Constitution. So the people that disagreed with the former Executive Office's interpretations of what is torture and who can be held without US constitutional rights , then maybe they just needed to ‘Fall down a well and die?” I guess if we are using the Federal Government’s interpretation of what is and is not right and prudent to engage in as a country, we probably need to rethink our objections.