No Replacement for Displacement

[Cyberkreig]

of course not.. but We are talking about trying to make power with a limited displacement. EVERY little advantage helps. And coatings like Nikasil/teflon/ceramic are not just for longevity.. you cant just rev metal against metal at 10-15-20krpm. I dont care what kinda oil you have. =P

[SmithSR]

All I care about is the HP.

You want to compare a 400 HP turbo 240 to a 400 HP NA C5? Should be fun to watch what happens.

You should be caring about torque curves, because hp is a calculated number from an actual torque measurement.

The C5 has the torque advantage, and would have a much flatter torque curve, giving it greater force to move the mass of the vehicle sooner .. if it can get proper traction.

[Onizuka]

Lingenfelter pumped out 725 HP out of their most powerful kit

Thats alot of power, how much does that kit cost? like $50,000? You could buy JUN racing kit for the SR20 that puts out more power than that, with 2.5 liters less displacment and about the same pricetag.

[R4v3n]

Wasn't there a Lotus with a V8? It might not be as light, but the idea is there. And last I checked, all vipers came with V10s, that were at least 8.0L. I'm not gonna get in the middle of this arguement, because it will go on forever, but get your facts straight people. Big motors may not always be the answer, but it sure cost a **** load to make big power on a small motor, face it. Throw in cost as an x-factor and now this arguement will move into a third direction.

http://www.fast-autos.net/lotus/lotusespritv8.html

[SmithSR]

Perhaps OneFastJ30 is speaking of the Lotus Carlton? The 4 door from hell, the millenium falcon of super saloons...the predecessor to the M5 and all it's competitors...

[tl1000sga]

This is all a moot argument anyways. Who cares how you get there. 400 HP is 400 HP. 700 HP is 700 HP. Regardless of if it's from sheer size, high RPMs, forced induction, NOS, or even Fred Flinstone's feet, if you are making a lot of power, you are making a lot of power. Even if someone only goes and drops $45,000+ on some C5 or $70,000+ on a Viper, it will still smoke a lesser car. I'm certainly not impressed by large displacement motors that put out such low HP to displacement ratios, but they can still move a car very fast. You can't dispute getting your *** handed to you.

So is there replacement for displacement? Sure. It comes in many forms. All I care about is the HP. You want to compare a 400 HP turbo 240 to a 400 HP NA C5? Should be fun to watch what happens. And certainly, putting turbos on a C5 would give a very nice kick(Lingenfelter pumped out 725 HP out of their most powerful kit), but they are now replacing perhaps a 12.0L motor with 2 turbos.

As far as F1 cars, it's apples and oranges comparing it to a production based race car. 1st off they make tons of power because of their ability to rev very high. 18,000-20,000 RPM last time I heard. As far as all other aspects, consider F1 cars put so much downforce that theoretically, they can drive upside down provided there is enough traction to keep the car moving forward at that speed. You put that kind of force on the tires and the car will be all but glued to the road and can corner and brake faster than any production based race car. At the same time, I'm not sure that sustaining such high RPM's for 24 hours would keep the motor in one piece.

As far as the Rotary's 2.6L, yes, that seems to be the case given SCC's analysis of it in comparison to a conventional 4-stroke motor. However, once must consider that the newest version makes 250 HP with the same 2.6L with no turbo. Still behind the S2000 in displacement to HP if using the 2.6 figure, but respectable nonetheless. But 250 HP is still 10 more HP than 240 no matter which way you slice it. This pretty much works for all comparisons. Who cares about how you get there. Just get there.

Lingenfelter's most powerful kit puts out over 900 hp and runs 9's in the quarter and looks stock. Nobody said anything about a stock C5. The different ways to make HP do matter, they all have different uses. All that typing and you basically said nothing that hasn't been said. How about reading the posts before you express your opinion. If all you care about is horsepower, then go find another post to be ignorant on, we're not discussing HP:thinker

[TrueSlide]

Thats alot of power, how much does that kit cost? like $50,000? You could buy JUN racing kit for the SR20 that puts out more power than that, with 2.5 liters less displacment and about the same pricetag.

Ok!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Never knew the JUN kit took the SR to 725!!!! But but, even if it DID, the SR is now has reached its POWER POTENTIAL end!!!

The vette is just warming up.

And how long will that SR last?! Much less not even be street driveable!!!!!!! GG, can u image the price of gas.

[R4v3n]

Oh, and I think that if you want to argue that throwing the Esprit motor in the Elise will make a faster car right? Wrong! With all the custom fabrication and **** you'd have to do to support that motor on that little car would tip it waay over its stock weight. You could just gut the hell out of an Esprit to get the same effect. Just thougth I'd throw that log into the fire.

[tl1000sga]

Wasn't there a Lotus with a V8? It might not be as light, but the idea is there. And last I checked, all vipers came with V10s, that were at least 8.0L. I'm not gonna get in the middle of this arguement, because it will go on forever, but get your facts straight people. Big motors may not always be the answer, but it sure cost a **** load to make big power on a small motor, face it. Throw in cost as an x-factor and now this arguement will move into a third direction.

http://www.fast-autos.net/lotus/lotusespritv8.html

Lotus did make a V8 in an Espirit. We were all joking about the viper V8, it was just a typo:D

[R4v3n]

Heh, I musta missed the inside joke...

Oh, anybody play that dumbass game Midnight Club 2 for PS2? Well if you have, did you get that batmobile looking car? I used the cheats and its hilarious, its got 2 gears and gets to 200 in like 2 seconds. Jet Motors, thats the way to go, total Batman Action! :ylsuper

[Onizuka]

Ok!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Never knew the JUN kit took the SR to 725!!!! But but, even if it DID, the SR is now has reached its POWER POTENTIAL end!!!

The vette is just warming up.

And how long will that SR last?! Much less not even be street driveable!!!!!!! GG, can u image the price of gas.

Actually the kit uses a off-the-shelf T88 and has alot of room for improvement in the way of bigger injectors (or if your crazy enough a bigger turbo). The kit will last years if taken car of correctly, just like every other car. And 700hp isnt very streetable no matter what the car. Gas will be expensive for both cars.

[MrFox]

can you stick a v8 in this car?

*** J-Spec's Big Arse Pic***

Whats the awnser?

Shame on you, you know these cars have a displacement cap.

But to "awnser" your question.....

Western Washington did just that (stick a v8 in) back in 2001/02.

Its the most amazing looking little thing - 2 250cc heads and a custom CNC block/crank. I have pics.

And to "awnser" the original question: The replacement for displacement is RPM and BMEP.

[Onizuka]

dang, you cought me, i didnt know there were any FSAE'ers on the board. I personally liked the one car from the japanese team that had a decreased displacment car motor and custom transmission/difforential, that thing must have weighed like 800lbs. Send me some pics of the car your talking about if you get a chance or hit me up on aim: fiss240.

[MrFox]

I actually posted this on the board a long time ago.



Yeah, I think the Japanese guys were the only ones to do a longitudinal mount, for Lambo style points I guess? Pretty funky stuff.

My formula days are behind me though... graduated and looking for a job.

[Onizuka]

where didja go anyways?

[Nathan]

This is such a stupid argument...it's not about power to weight or anything else. You can just plain make more power in the end out of a larger engine. No questions asked, you CAN. Everything you can do to an SR you can do to a 540 ci V8...it wont rev well but it'll make a heap of power with two huge turbos. AND, it'll be more streetable in the sense that it'll have plenty of low end torque. The technology can be applied to any engine...and when applied to a larger one it has more of an effect. Of course, there are drawbacks to big engines (ie: weight, gas consumption, etc. etc.) but from the pure no replacement for displacement argument, everything else is a moot point. Oh, and J-Spec...that looks like a fun little car! I've always wanted to build something like that

[F4ucc]

Personally, I believe with same amount of technology, "No Replacement for Displacement", However. I doubt a Push Rod V8 performs better than a Dohc V8, same size though.

Push rod is just a junk, you guy know Viper V10 (eqquiped with JUNK PUSH ROD V-10) can not even keep up with 3.5 liter Turbo Audi in Le Mans, Frence. Well, I do know that they are in different class though, GT-1 and GT-2.

Well, just my thought.

[trpower7]

Here's how I see it. Take two exact cars of equal weight. Give both owners $5,000 to spend on an engine. The guy that goes and gets a 454, builds it, and throws a 150 shot on it (which can be done for $5,000) will win in a straight line over the guy that gets (x) engine of smaller displacement and tries to turbo the fool out of it, etc. For the money, here in the US, a V8 will get you down that 1320 a hella lot quicker and cheaper.

[Onizuka]

its all about burning as much fuel as posible in a short amount of time. Displacement is just one of many ways to accomplish that.

[Onizuka]

Oh, and J-Spec...that looks like a fun little car! I've always wanted to build something like that

if by fun you mean 0-60 times under 4 seconds and over 1.3g's on the skidpad, yeah you could say its fun. Join your college's formula SAE team today!

[Nathan]

Shoot...I'll have to see if we even have one, that'd be quite cool! I kinda doubt we do though...UNT isnt known to be the best engineering school or anything.

[Onizuka]

there are tons of colleges that participate, about 130 teams show up to nationals every year. Its not about being the best, its about having fun and learning about cars!

[MrFox]

There are good reasons for replacing displacement. With beefy displacement comes beefy weight. Not only do the heavier components negate performance gained by the added power, the increased mass of reciprocating items such as pistons, crankshaft, valvetrain, etc, makes for a less responsive engine. This is exaggerated by the disgustingly heavy cranks of American V8s.

The torque of a heavy grunty powerhouse may be appealing to some, but I'd prefer the responsiveness of a lightweight screamer, sans turbo.

Quote »where didja go anyways?[/quote]

Sister school of the Bi-plane wonder, we placed 21st this year. (Those bastards placed 15th!).

[D-UNIT]

I'm kinda late but....Lingenfelter Twin turbo C5 as of aug. 2003! $50,000 gets you a fully built 7 liter C5-R block, LS6 heads , Two Garret GT28 turbos (14 to 20 pounds of boost). Installed with a 24,000 mile warranty!! <-- wish jdm sr's came with that. lol.

This equals over 1100 very streetable ( F.I. big block) horsepower and 950 ft\lb of peak torque. Good for a 0 to 60 of 1.97 seconds. A 1/4 mile of 8.95sec. @ 153.7 mph on drag radials (not slicks). stock suspension and no weight reduction.

http://www.ligenfelter.com

btw ,it is a pushrod engine still, and it still can pull over a G. Kinda comparable to that 725 horse SR that must cost about $25,000.

Plus when you talk about F1 engines , low displacement high power. Like a 3.2L twin turbo "V8" c.a.r.t. engine can put out almost 900 hp , but at over 16,000 rpms come on. TECHNOLOGY!?!?! Yes and no. Same tech. applied to same 7L V8TT and it could probably hit 3000h.p at 16,000rpms!! Hp = tq/time.

and if you still want some? Top fuel 496 max ci = 7000 (est.) H.P.!!! My 240 146 c.i. = 155 h.p. haha. My 240T revving up to 16,000 rpms hmmm maybe about 740 h.p.

[rco8786]

I have heard this one too many times on this forum and i want to clear something up with all of the idiots that say forced induction is the replacement. ITS NOT. between a v8 and a I4 both running turbos who has more horsepower then? Any technology that can be applied to lower displacement engines can be applied to others. So there really isn't a replacement for displacement. just wanted to clear things up.

There's a supercharged v6 mustang around here with a little sticker on his hood that says "The only replacement for displacement is technology". You would think it's rice but it actually complements the rest of the car.

[rco8786]

I'm kinda late but....Lingenfelter Twin turbo C5 as of aug. 2003! $50,000 gets you a fully built 7 liter C5-R block, LS6 heads , Two Garret GT28 turbos (14 to 20 pounds of boost). Installed with a 24,000 mile warranty!! <-- wish jdm sr's came with that. lol.

This equals over 1100 very streetable ( F.I. big block) horsepower and 950 ft\lb of peak torque. Good for a 0 to 60 of 1.97 seconds. A 1/4 mile of 8.95sec. @ 153.7 mph on drag radials (not slicks). stock suspension and no weight reduction.

http://www.ligenfelter.com

btw ,it is a pushrod engine still, and it still can pull over a G. Kinda comparable to that 725 horse SR that must cost about $25,000.

Plus when you talk about F1 engines , low displacement high power. Like a 3.2L twin turbo "V8" c.a.r.t. engine can put out almost 900 hp , but at over 16,000 rpms come on. TECHNOLOGY!?!?! Yes and no. Same tech. applied to same 7L V8TT and it could probably hit 3000h.p at 16,000rpms!! Hp = tq/time.

and if you still want some? Top fuel 496 max ci = 7000 (est.) H.P.!!! My 240 146 c.i. = 155 h.p. haha. My 240T revving up to 16,000 rpms hmmm maybe about 740 h.p.

[Onizuka]

This equals over 1100 very streetable ( F.I. big block) horsepower and 950 ft\lb of peak torque..

I have tremendous respect for that kind of power but like i said earlier, there is no way in hell you can concider anything over 4-600hp in any car streetable. Thats like saying a bazooka is suitible for target shooting.

as far as the whole revving thing, it takes alot of money, time, and research to make a motor rev past 10,000rpms and like what was said earlier, the V8 design by nature inhibits it to rev very high. Ultra high RPMS on a low displacement motor is one way to make a car that can be both street legal, very fast, get good gas milage and pass emmisions. I admit honda is going the way of the future. They have motors that are docile, very street freindly, get good milage and have low emmisions below ~5000rpms. The motor past that is a whole difforent beast, it becomes a gas guzzling, high horsepower motor running a whole new set of cams (thanks to Vtec) that can rev past 10,000 rpms given the right aftermarket crank. How could you ask for more? its having a econo motor for the drive to work and at the same time a race motor for the weekends at the track (or when you need it).

[krazy skwerel]

I need that 1100hp vette. Good grief I'd have to be bailed out of jail if I owned something like that. Sorry, but damn thats a lot of power in an already awsome car.

[MrFox]

IMHO the best compromise avaliable today between displacement, responsiveness, and efficiency: M3

I need to find a job dammit!

[D-UNIT]

Forgot to mention C5TT tops out at 230 mph!! It's just a docile ol fuel injected 427ci engine (purrs), till you open up that 1000 cfm throttle boby. It runs full exhuast with cats too. holy emissions test passing batman.

That for that NRFD arguement. So a Honda full race, race gas 30 pounds of boost , full tuning , slicks , not pasing emissions hopefully 800 bhp 8 sec 1/4 mile. Corvette 20 pound of boost , not full race , not fully tuned , still handles like a dream and streetable 1100 bhp 8 sec 1/4 mile.

and F1 engines cost about 150,000 to 250,000 dollars so tech. is super expensive and not very streetable either. and still a full race F1 900hp 9 sec 1/4 mile but can it handle yeah but were talking about displacement not suspension and tires.

I,d sure like to stroke a RB26DETT to 3.0 liters. OOhh weee!!