Learned'd VIII: Less Bewbs, Same Nonsense

[Kompresshun]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3zjRcMnRNY[/youtube]

[frapjap]

haha! I liked it all except the end with the ghost chick.

[sx moneypit]

Good morning !

[frapjap]

Morning Ben!
Heat wave here! We're tapping 40 degrees today!

[Bubba1]

The Grand Marquis and Crown Vic are the same body, but the Marauder uses a much beefier drivetrain and also uses the 4.6L quad-cam 32V motor found in the Lincoln Mark VIII(Another personal fav) and the Mustang Cobra. It's essentially an excellent sleeper though because of how much it resembles the other ones.

I don't quite get the love for the last generation Mafrauder. Thing is, back then you could order the CVic/GMarq with the police interceptor package and get the more powerful engine/drivetrain/dual exhaust stiffer shocks and save many thousands of dollars over the Marauder. The car sold poorly as Ford priced it waaay too high for what was essentially an automatic transmissioned only CRown Vicki with the police interceptor package with blacked out chrome and two small useless gauges at the base of the console. I drove one. It was a bit peppier than my old GMarq, but at the end of the day, it was too big and heavy to be considered blazing or nimble. The only thing I liked about it was that people had a tendency to pull over for me thinking it was a police cruiser. But that could be accomplished with an ordinary Crown Vic.

[sx moneypit]

Morning Ben!
Heat wave here! We're tapping 40 degrees today!

Mornin' Ray ,Joel !

It is 67 degrees here right now and it is supposed to hit 74 later on.Got a cold front coming through later today so we are in for some nasty weather this afternoon.

[frapjap]

If the snow melts between today and tomorrow, I can drive the t/a on the weekend since there is 0% chance of precipitation to make the roads wet & salty! Crossing my fingers for that one. I really hate driving the Subaru all of the time.

I was considering selling the Miata and my Legacy to get a new WRX, but I had an epiphany. Driving around back roads at 40mph in the Miata is a pure, unadulterated blast. Driving the same back roads in a sedan with a fixed roof is kinda boring. Even with the windows down and sun roof open, its just wind buffeting and annoying. Regardless of how fast it is and how well it might handle, the fun is kinda sucked out of the experience and it won't give the same enjoyment and sensation of driving the open air Miata or the T topped t/a. I think I'm stuck being a convertible owner for life, its hard to imagine life without one. Maybe Toyobaru will actually release the 'vert version of their successful coupe.

[elwesso]

If the snow melts between today and tomorrow, I can drive the t/a on the weekend since there is 0% chance of precipitation to make the roads wet & salty! Crossing my fingers for that one. I really hate driving the Subaru all of the time.

I was considering selling the Miata and my Legacy to get a new WRX, but I had an epiphany. Driving around back roads at 40mph in the Miata is a pure, unadulterated blast. Driving the same back roads in a sedan with a fixed roof is kinda boring. Even with the windows down and sun roof open, its just wind buffeting and annoying. Regardless of how fast it is and how well it might handle, the fun is kinda sucked out of the experience and it won't give the same enjoyment and sensation of driving the open air Miata or the T topped t/a. I think I'm stuck being a convertible owner for life, its hard to imagine life without one. Maybe Toyobaru will actually release the 'vert version of their successful coupe.

That would be cool. I know what you're saying about the convertible thing. When I got my coupe I almost pulled the trigger on a drop top, and while I think for a couple months out of the year I would have really enjoyed the convertible, the hard top version looks so much sexier...

[Kompresshun]

I don't quite get the love for the last generation Mafrauder. Thing is, back then you could order the CVic/GMarq with the police interceptor package and get the more powerful engine/drivetrain/dual exhaust stiffer shocks and save many thousands of dollars over the Marauder. The car sold poorly as Ford priced it waaay too high for what was essentially an automatic transmissioned only CRown Vicki with the police interceptor package with blacked out chrome and two small useless gauges at the base of the console. I drove one. It was a bit peppier than my old GMarq, but at the end of the day, it was too big and heavy to be considered blazing or nimble. The only thing I liked about it was that people had a tendency to pull over for me thinking it was a police cruiser. But that could be accomplished with an ordinary Crown Vic.

Oh when it came out, I fully believe it was a joke. Of course it came out at a time that the US market had very few powerful V8 RWD sedans, so the idea in general wasn't so bad.

Now i've driven every combination of Grand Marquis, Crown Vic, Marauder, Town Car and ect - I personally have always felt like the Marauder is quicker than any of them and just felt like it performed better. Yes, even more so than a P71. I could be wrong, but from what I remember the Marauder was not a copy of the P71 performance package - the Crown Victoria Sport was. The Marauder was supposed to be even more powerful than those.

Either way, while they were overpriced back then, they are not now. They're about the same price as a loaded Grand Marquis or Crown Vic, so i'd rather have the Marauder given the choice. Now, I also would not turn down a police auto Crown Vic for half the price, because I could slap a turbo on it and swap in a manual trans, but to me it's not worth the work for such a boat of a car.

I was considering selling the Miata and my Legacy to get a new WRX, but I had an epiphany. Driving around back roads at 40mph in the Miata is a pure, unadulterated blast. Driving the same back roads in a sedan with a fixed roof is kinda boring. Even with the windows down and sun roof open, its just wind buffeting and annoying. Regardless of how fast it is and how well it might handle, the fun is kinda sucked out of the experience and it won't give the same enjoyment and sensation of driving the open air Miata or the T topped t/a. I think I'm stuck being a convertible owner for life, its hard to imagine life without one. Maybe Toyobaru will actually release the 'vert version of their successful coupe.

Same here for me. I've driven the Miata two days this week and the 500 two days so far - I just can't get that feeling that the Miata gives me even in a much sportier sedan. I've had much sportier sedans - the joy is not there I get from the Miata. Even muscle cars just don't compare.

Of course I haven't considered selling mine for even a second since buying it 4 months ago. If anything, I want to buy another one. I need an NB in my life for a V8 swap and a fastback conversion

[frapjap]

Both versions of Wers' car are very sexy looking. It really comes down to what you want to do with the car. Your M would require modification to hit a real raceway if it were a convertible- which is what I think you're doing with it eventually.

I'd really like to have a Corvette, and when I get one, it'll be a convertible mainly because it'd be enjoyed more often that way. The cost of getting on a real track enough times a year to enjoy the fixed roof counterpart is very pricey. In order to get enough track time to make a car like yours worthwhile, I'd have to give up skiing or world traveling to fund the racing hobby. I love your car, but to quote you, when do you really get to use a Porsche's (or other fast car's) true potential without huge legal ramifications? But, same could be said for the car that is collecting dust in my driveway right now, too, since its winter. I suppose its all a matter of personal taste and perception.

[Bubba1]

Oh when it came out, I fully believe it was a joke. Of course it came out at a time that the US market had very few powerful V8 RWD sedans, so the idea in general wasn't so bad.

Now i've driven every combination of Grand Marquis, Crown Vic, Marauder, Town Car and ect - I personally have always felt like the Marauder is quicker than any of them and just felt like it performed better. Yes, even more so than a P71. I could be wrong, but from what I remember the Marauder was not a copy of the P71 performance package - the Crown Victoria Sport was. The Marauder was supposed to be even more powerful than those.

Either way, while they were overpriced back then, they are not now. They're about the same price as a loaded Grand Marquis or Crown Vic, so i'd rather have the Marauder given the choice. Now, I also would not turn down a police auto Crown Vic for half the price, because I could slap a turbo on it and swap in a manual trans, but to me it's not worth the work for such a boat of a car.
:

To give some perspective, the 2003 Mafrauder pumped out 302 hp and weighed a hefty 4200 lbs. that's only 15 or so hp than my little 2003 350Z which weighs 1000+lbs less than the Merc. The Z is not a fast car by any stretch, but it was quicker than Marauder. The Marauder was not a particularly fast or sporty car despite its "masculine" looks. It was certainly faster than the lower model GMarqs, but that really wasn't saying much. I was not overly impressed with the one I drove. I don't hate them. In fact, if I were looking for a cheap big comfortable family highway cruiser whose trunk could hold 6 dead hookers, it's a good choice. I just don't see them as something special.

[Kompresshun]

Well i'm not comparing it to the Z here though. The 350Z should be a faster car in every way, because as you mentioned - it's not a hefty 4,200 lbs. I'm talking about what else was offered that year by the big three that compared. Nothing.

Now, the CTS-V did debut in 2004 but prior to that there really was not much.

I get what you're saying though and don't disagree completely either - i'm not trying to say it was the ultimate muscle sedan of that time. It was just something unique and made what was typically perceived as a grandparent car somewhat cool.

Personally what draws me to them is that they're V8, RWD, big, and comfy. That and you can easily modify them to make some decent power, because a lot of Mustang parts will swap over to them.

Sure, there is a lot better out there and I probably would prefer something German or European over it, but I still wouldn't mind owning one for the sake of my history with Ford products and how comfortable I am turning wrenches on them.

[sx moneypit]

Mornin' peeps!

[RicerX]

YAO!

So, I have gotten approval from my other half to pull the trigger on a car purchase in July. The simple answer for me is another Z. It's really all I want, and I can get a used Altima later when kiddos do show up. But, the right answer really is something with at least back seats, so I'm torn.

The Q50 Eau Rogue represents the total package to me minus one variable - pricing. I don't know how much it's going to be, but it meets most, if not all, criteria:

1) Japanese
2) Preferably Nissan
3) At least as powerful as my VQ Altima Coupe (I miss that car).
4) RWD/AWD
5) Badass. (This is purely personal taste at this point)
6) Will daily drive. No matter what it is.
7) I have to be fully content with the car because I'm through buying cars for a LONG TIME after this. I have some other priorities to focus on rather than being silly in my 20s. (lol - my 20s are practically over and I'm not single anymore)

This is my list so far:
1) Infiniti G37/Q60 Coupe IPL (big discounts on these right now)
2) Q50S/Q50 Eau Rogue
3) 370Z Touring + Sport (would like Nav, but not required).
4) Lexus IS350 F Sport
5) Lexus RC350 F Sport (depending release date and price)

The IPL version on the G is there because if I get a regular G37S, I would want to do a better spoiler, would probably end up converting to the IPL front bumper just because I think it sets off the car, and I would replace the stock wheels anyway - I'm far less apt to replace anything on an IPL, and there are several dealers cutting prices WAY down (One dealer in Ohio has a leftover 2013 for $44k with 90 miles on it - this is what a G37S 6MT costs MSRP anyway).

I have an emotional attachment to the Z - that's the long and short of it. It was hard to part with my 370, but it was done for the greater good (aka wifey), but she is thankful and very happy with her car and I'm more comfortable with her being in something safer.

I'm one of those guys that absolutely loves Lexus's new design language with its F and F Sport models. The cars are supposedly improved, but I haven't driven any of them. I haven't driven a Q50 either, but I know when I do, it will be without the Deluxe Touring Package (which includes the controversial-to-enthusiasts Direct Active Steering).

What does the LEANDEDRDEDED crew thing?

[Kompresshun]

No to the Lexus, even though I do like the F sport. I just have always felt like Lexus makes a really great looking and well made car, but they're overpriced in comparison to everything else out there.

I'd honestly go for a G/Q IPL given what you've listed or the Q50S. I prefer the coupe personally, but i've driven both and both are fairly solid vehicles.

I've already went over this on FB though - $75k or less: used Porsche Panamera S.

Also this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-M6-2dr-Cpe- ... ars_Trucks

Oh, and have you also thought about the Hyundai Genesis R-spec sedan? 5.0L 429hp V8 for less than $50k new and fairly cheap used. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hyundai-Genesis ... ars_Trucks

Basically for the money you'd spend on the G or Q, I feel like you could buy something so much better. That's just me though. I think all of the ones you listed are good cars, but once you get up into those kind of prices there are so much better things available.

[Rogue One]

No to the Lexus, even though I do like the F sport. I just have always felt like Lexus makes a really great looking and well made car, but they're overpriced in comparison to everything else out there...

Lexus = Over Priced Toyota. There's a reason why the logo is a giant 'L'. Ask the owner of any other car brand which model they drive, and they can tell you. Ask a Lexus owner what they drive, and all they say is "Lexus." Press them on the model, and they're clueless.

[RicerX]

I don't quite trust the reliability factor of the Korean guys just yet. The new generation hasn't had quite enough time on the roads. I'm afraid of anything German - I have seen every German brand have something super expensive go wrong past 50k miles. With Audi/VW, it's powertrain related or electrical. With BMWs, it's interior materials that suck or something accessory related like water pump/fuel pumps/turbochargers/etc. With Mercedes... actually I don't have anything there yet as I have never been quite interested enough to investigate Mercedes except the C63 AMG, but I also ignored it based on pricing.

I'm leaning toward buying new simply because of warranty stuff. I like the peace of mind especially since this will be a very long term car. I would like to have the warranty coverage as long as possible, which is why a used GT-R is off the table. I'm not sure of available warranty on the preowned market, and the CPO market for the car is just overpriced IMO. The 09s and 10s with around 30k miles are priced at what amounts to only a 10% depreciation of value, while the 12s and higher and depreciating much faster, but out of my price range. It is a strange market scenario for that car. I also worry that DDing a GT-R would stress me the hell out in a lot of ways, though I would enjoy it a lot as well.

I really like the Porsche... a lot. I need to do some more research.

[RicerX]

No to the Lexus, even though I do like the F sport. I just have always felt like Lexus makes a really great looking and well made car, but they're overpriced in comparison to everything else out there...

Lexus = Over Priced Toyota. There's a reason why the logo is a giant 'L'. Ask the owner of any other car brand which model they drive, and they can tell you. Ask a Lexus owner what they drive, and all they say is "Lexus." Press them on the model, and they're clueless.

One could also argue that Infiniti is an overpriced Nissan too, but I would disagree with each considering Toyota has 1) very few, if any RWD vehicles that aren't trucks and 2) anything remotely sporty (and don't throw an FRS at me - it's a Scion . Nissan is the same way, with the Z and GT-R as the exceptions. Everything Nissan is FWD now except their trucks. Everything Infiniti is RWD/AWD except their crossovers. It's a complete inverse.

Hilariously, though, my lady is so against BMW because most of their drivers employ the same douchey stereotype that you're describing with Lexus drivers.

[Kompresshun]

I get the worry with Korean stuff, but I know quite a few people(including myself) that have bought Korean lately and they're really solid vehicles now. We only have 12k on our Sorento, but it has not given a single issue so far. I have friends that have the Genesis and love it. I still don't know that i'd trust is more than something from Ze-Germans though, even though German reliability can suck. The build quality from Hyundai/KIA is good, but I still am curious to see what it's like after 50k or so. My other issues with Korean is that they're starting to climb in price - which makes them harder to consider, even if they're quality is getting better.


I don't think I could DD a GT-R either, but i'd have no issue with the Porsche or the Mercedes at all. I parked next to a C350 the other night that was black on black and I liked the look of that car A LOT. It was quite sexy.


Trust me, I was in your spot last year and I went with new. Buying cars these days can almost be frustrating. When we decided to buy a new SUV, I seriously researched for like 3 months straight and looked at every new and CPO vehicle out there. Narrowed it down to the RAV4 and the Sorento, came home with a new Sorento with an extended warranty.

In my research, buying new was best overall and here was my reasons:
1. New was only slightly more in price than CPO. Most CPO vehicles had 20-30k miles on them.
2. Full warranty from day one. No issues.
3. No one else has had a chance to mistreat or improperly maintain the vehicle.
4. Not having to settle for whats available and what someone else chose. We bought the vehicle we wanted with the options and color we wanted.
5. Better trade in value on your current vehicle. I don't care what anyone says - i've worked in the car sales biz. Trading in a used vehicle on a new car almost always gets you more money, especially if you're upside down.

[Rogue One]

Hilariously, though, my lady is so against BMW because most of their drivers employ the same douchey stereotype that you're describing with Lexus drivers.

My impression of Mercedes is that they suffer from lots of rust problems. It was really bad back in the 90's, so they've had 20 years to correct it, but owners are still complaining about it.

[skydragoness]

My vote: 370z, you miss it.

[frapjap]

No to the Lexus, even though I do like the F sport. I just have always felt like Lexus makes a really great looking and well made car, but they're overpriced in comparison to everything else out there.

I like your list and options that you're considering a bit more than that.

I too have a secret boner for the reinvented Lexus brand. They nailed the styling- I keep whipping my head around for them on the road. They're even pretty fast (at least on paper). I would wager that they handle really well, too. However, Chris hit the nail on the head; there are a lot of other options out there in the same price range. Lexus is always a little on the high end, IMO. But, they kinda have a right be to be. Re-badged Toyota or not, the entire Lexus line will probably have less warranty issues than one model of any of the German brands. You rarely hear anyone dogging on Lexus' reliability.
In fact, one of my favorite looking cars right now is the Lexus 200.

I don't know anything about it drive train, but it certainly looks cool. Its probably stupid and FWD and shared with the corolla.

The IS250 and IS350 cars are very hot though. Nicely styled, decent power trains. I think if you're going to get a car for long term dependability and enjoyment, I'd go Lexus.

Plus, they depreciate a HELLUVA lot less.


Have you considered putting the ATS or CTS on your list?

[sx moneypit]

My vote: 370z, you miss it.

[MinisterofDOOM]

I too have a secret boner for the reinvented Lexus brand. They nailed the styling- I keep whipping my head around for them on the road.

Really? I just don't see it. I think their styling is a mess. More directionless than Acura's current nonsense and even less attractive. The new IS is a special level of fugly. Toyota/Lexus' obsession with lamp housings that don't conform to the lines of the car makes me want to curbstomp fetuses. And that bad trend is at its worst on the new IS, where the headlights are inexplicably recessed with a random LED Nike swish glued in front of them. It's so ridiculous I have trouble articulating myself when thinking about it. And I've never been able to stand the IS's "cab BACKWARD" styling that's sort of the confused predecessor of "coupelike" sedans. It doesn't have a coupelike roofline, but it awkardly shoves a sedan middle section into coupe proportions. A vestigal rear deck, awkward-looking rear doors, and an overly-aggressive forward "sports car" cant to the whole beltline that makes the doorstop wedge supercars of the '80s look reserved. It's just stupid. Overdone and underthought. The G/Q50 are so much more tasteful and so much more sporty-looking, despite trying much less hard to look sporty. And the irony is that the IS is the car trying so hard to convince you it's a coupe, but Lexus never actually made a 2-door version. Yet Infiniti had huge success with the G coupe.
Of course, sales demographics don't always carry between Lexus/Infiniti, as we learned with the ES and I. But still...I've never understood why Lexus goes so far out of their way to treat the IS sedan like a coupe instead of just building an IS coupe.
I have also NEVER been in a car with less rear legroom than an IS.

Modern Lexus styling is loud/obnoxious/extreme for the sake of attention. Like a goth kid with too many piercings and torn pants and chains and straps and leather dangling everywhere. It doesn't look good. It doesn't look "badass." It looks like you're desperate to get noticed, which in turn tells me you're not WORTH noticing.

As for that little CT200h hatch that was posted...it's okay. I've seen a couple in person. It's bland and featureless with the tiniest hint of style in a modern-Volkswagen kind of way. But what kills it for me is that wraparound rear glass. It SCREAMS econobox to me, and it ruins the C-pillars and what might have been a nice, sharp, clean hatchback sillhouette.
Oh, and as to the drivetrain: it's a hybrid. What made me chuckle heartily is that both of the ones I've seen in person had "F Sport" logos on them.
Three things that cannot go together: Lexus, hybrid, and "sport."


I certaily second the ATS as a car to consider. They're quite roomy inside for such a small car (roomier than my LS8 by a considerable margin). Alpha's long wheelbase allows for a lot of interior space and a lot of rear legroom compared to similar models. It also improves the car's dynamics on the road. And it doesn't hurt the exterior proportions, either. I can't imagine spending ATS money for a car with 4 cylinders, regardless of boost, though, so anything but the six is out. It's funny to read magazine reviews from when the ATS launched and from today. The same editors who lauded GM's turbo Ecotec 2 liter in early ATS reviews can now be found complaining about its less-than-reserved manners. I guess it's easy to be blinded when you first fall in love. And don't even think about the base 2.5. Cruder than a trucker at a seedy bar.
CTS benefits from the same good design, looks even more handsome (especially from the rear), and is also worth considering.
Oh, and the ATS coupe is a pleasant surprise. Unlike the sky-high rear end of the misproportioned CTS coupe, it fits all the ATS's greatness into very nice lines. I just wish the new roofline would have ditched the sedan's not-quite-Bangle raised decklid. The ATS coupe really reminds me of the E90 coupe, which is pretty high-praise. I normally DESPISE 2-door sedans, so my liking either of these two cars is a strong compliment.

[Kompresshun]

II agree with everything MoD says above and I can't believe I forgot about the ATS. Such a brilliant car for the money and so tastefully designed. I like it much, much better than the CTS honestly.

Now another question I have though is if you're considering another Z, why in the heck are you not considering a C7?

[RicerX]

Lots of good info from all the above posters - I love the Caddy ATS myself, and I'm curious about the V version that's in the works (rumored?). However, for some reason, I don't want anything to do with a domestic whatsoever. That brings me to my exception - the C7.

I don't like how Corvettes depreciate for one, but this C7 is truly something else. The only reason why it's not on the table is price because it is incredibly likely that kids are in the picture within 2-3 years and I can justify $50k on something that has four doors and four seats but I can't with a two seater just yet. For that money, I could have a brand new 370z sport plus a 2.5s Altima for a daily. If I wasn't going to have kiddos, then I would be on the Chevy lot for a Z51 C7 in white with the black accents.

I wish I wasn't so picky. I looked at the Q50 in person this weekend and I decided I couldn't possibly buy a Lexus anything over it. Pictures do not do the car justice whatsoever.

[Kompresshun]

ATS or Q50 gets my vote then. Also, another thought is the Chevrolet SS - I know it doesn't come in manual, but it hear it's a really fun car for the money and is really well optioned.

I'm still going to prod about the Porsche Panamera S too. I would have a hard time looking away.

If I had the budget you did though, I definitely would not buy two cars if kids are in the future. Buy one car you really want now that can be a really good daily and then buy something fun with cash down the road to build up. You can clearly afford two, but i'm glad I waited until my kid was a little older to add another vehicle to the fleet.

If I were in the same situation I probably would go buy a CTS, ATS, Chevy SS, or the Q50 and call it a day. As much as I love all of the other stuff i've mentioned, i'm a pretty sensible and simple guy. I like power, nice amenities, and reliability without all the drama.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Lots of good info from all the above posters - I love the Caddy ATS myself, and I'm curious about the V version that's in the works (rumored?).

I believe the ATS-V is confirmed. It'll have the 430 ft-lb TT 3.6 from the CTS. Absolutely worth considering.
Meanwhile, the CTS-V is likely to get the Z06's brand new LT4 6.2 liter Supercharged V8 (which GM claims makes a ZR1-slaying 635 ft-lb in the new Z06).

Either way, you can't lose.

Remember when 400hp in a street car was mindblowing? I sure do. As much as I like to b**** about modern car design...engines are only getting better.

I'm still not sold on the standalone crest for the revised Caddy emblem. It needs SOME kind of offset or support. Bring back the old wide V emblem below it and we're golden.

[Kompresshun]

I don't see where you could go wrong with an ATS. I just did a quick build on one online and for less than $40k, that's a whole lot of car. ESPECIALLY when even the 2.0L turbo has an available manual transmission. Cadillac is winning these days majorly.

Heck, I can remember when driving a 350hp 6spd '04 GTO was mindblowing. I simply cannot imagine what 600+ HP in a sedan right off the car lot is like.

Engines are definitely getting better for sure. Heck our 2.4L 4cyl KIA makes right at 200hp, which to me is even impressive without boost. It's a ballsy little 4cyl for the money.

[TurboSauce]

I'm considering trading my 98' ls400 for a 04 mustang gt 5 speed with an 09 motor. Should I go for it or should i stay away from Fix or Repair Daily? ( FORD)



my ls400 for comparison