how to set up s14 for road racing

[driftfreek]

i no this mite be out of topic, but my question is what brand of coilovers do you guys have, brand and model please.ive been to the track already and autocross and i noticed that i need coilovers really bad. my stock shocks are going out too. people have been telling me to get kts or stance. any opinions? please!!!!

i just want to have a really good 240 car, well setup and everything and show people that 240s are not just good at drifting, they can also kick *** in road racing.

[autox615]

im running Stance, but it takes a whole lot more work to the suspension and chassis to make it a really good track car. If you just put coilovers on your im assuming stock wheels with radials you'll be sliding alot more than your used to. now go do some research tard.... Its not that hard at all.

[corey240]

this thread is awsome. now im not throwing your woods around to make a different thing but. the way i understand what you said, if i put stock sway bar on the rear with my whiteline in front it would help? i mean this as in it would help keep traction say in autocross? im just trying to totaly understand this. i read all thes threads from nico -fa-sr20club and it all confuses me but what you said i got the idea of what you were saying and it makes sense to me. i cant stand how technical people make things sound when a noob asks a question. after reading it 10 more times il understand offset, so whats a good offset on an s14

[sr20goofus]

this thread is awsome. now im not throwing your woods around to make a different thing but. the way i understand what you said, if i put stock sway bar on the rear with my whiteline in front it would help? i mean this as in it would help keep traction say in autocross? im just trying to totaly understand this. i read all thes threads from nico -fa-sr20club and it all confuses me but what you said i got the idea of what you were saying and it makes sense to me. i cant stand how technical people make things sound when a noob asks a question. after reading it 10 more times il understand offset, so whats a good offset on an s14

thats exactly what i was told about the sway bars, use stocker in the rear and upgrade the front to increase traction for hard cornering. Right now im not to the point where i want to do that with y car yet because i really enjoy the way i can make my car rotate and keep it under control and higher speeds on track. For auto-x i have no experience, so you may havce to consult others for that portion. offset, i have no idea as well, S14 not my department, loko around on wheel threads to see what others are running, then work from there....

[a_ahmed]

What do you think of largus front swaybars and no rear lol.

I was told to run the largest front sways and no rear or small rear sways with solid endlinks all around..

Only person I know of that has done this with a 240 on local forums is aceinthehole, his car kicks... ***... majorly It's an s14. He ran 8611s front and yellows rear with I forget which front sway and no rear sway

Let me telling you something about running 'stiff' setups. What I realized from experience just recently is how I just increased grip on my car.

I was running KYB AGX + stech combo 4/4 front and 8/8 rear.

The result of that crappy setting has been the following:

I had stupid understeer which I did not like and my car was sliding, loosing grip in the rear on corner exits... it was pretty much loosing traction/grip anytime, anywhere.

It was extremly twitchy and felt unstable at anything above 60-80, it just felt like all the time it was hovering, floating, sliding, no matter what, very scary and non confidence inspiring. It was very very responsive though and tight in feel though. Also very easy to drift/correct/etc...

Just a while ago I turned down the settings, 3/4 front and 7/8 rear. OMG LoL, what a difference. Understeer is practically not there, and i can floor it and it grips and pulls out in corners

The side effects however are: more body roll, alot alot less response in steering which I want to fight.. i need advice on that, its really more loose, but easier to turn but still very loose in feel compared to how it was.

Alongside that my brakes feel different, I think its just me needing to replace the brake fluid again, but the brakes seem mushier too lol.

After reading much, softer = more grip .. Problem is really.. when you make things so soft... you get body roll and less responsivness :-/

I will be getting largus fronts first.. and ill see how that goes...

*reviving thread from dead.. im bored, plus awesome thread*

I figure something I might try next is running yellows or 8611s... largus front, stock hicas rear (i have an s13 btw), and wider tires...

The thing with the car is now, i want more grip.. sure.. but i really dislike the roll in it, as well as bouncyiness and most of all over anything else, lack of responsivness when soft (which I guess the sway will take care of...)

If I could increase responsivness, reduce roll, increase grip and increase turn in (without toe somehow), that would be.. kick ***

[sr20goofus]

i gathered from older ITA racers that larger front sway with stock rear, or stock front and no rear is the way to go.....dont stiffen up everything too much or the car wont grip on corner exit acceleration.

Koni yellows are nice,. i had thought about that setup for awhile, but the total expense without a hook up is about the same as any coilover JDM style setup with the same adjustability. Koni Yellows are a ***** to adjust in the rear (remove, disassemble, compress turn, reassemble, install, repeat). Where as any JDM setup has internal adjustability and usually the same warrenty.

8611's are just about too much for anyone on these forums that doesnt actually race, even if you auto-x, unless yoru at a national level, dont worry about it, cost doesnt equal out for you, i have come to terms with this myself.

just upgrade yoru front sway bar gt a HICAS rear, replace your bushings and get a decent JDM style coilover, might as well keep cost down and get the same results.

[AceInhole]

I run 285/30/R18's on my car up front, with only a fender pull and a tucked wiring harness. The 285's actually have a shorter sidewall than the 275's, so they actually have better clearance all around.

i gathered from older ITA racers that larger front sway with stock rear, or stock front and no rear is the way to go.....dont stiffen up everything too much or the car wont grip on corner exit acceleration.

The 240sx has a nasty habit of picking up an inside rear tire. This is a definite no-no if you want to plant any power coming out of a turn. In order to run a rear sway, you'd pretty much need a custom bar up front. I had a whiteline sway up front on mine (heim endlinks) with a stock rear and it was pretty horrible. More grip = more roll, more roll resistance = picking up tires.

Quote »Koni yellows are nice,. i had thought about that setup for awhile, but the total expense without a hook up is about the same as any coilover JDM style setup with the same adjustability. Koni Yellows are a ***** to adjust in the rear (remove, disassemble, compress turn, reassemble, install, repeat). Where as any JDM setup has internal adjustability and usually the same warrenty.[/quote]I'd argue that Koni Yellows or even non adjustable Bilsteins are better than JDM setups. Adjustability is moot if the dampers just plain don't work as well. With my rear yellows dialed in, I never had the need to touch them.

Quote »8611's are just about too much for anyone on these forums that doesnt actually race, even if you auto-x, unless yoru at a national level, dont worry about it, cost doesnt equal out for you, i have come to terms with this myself.[/quote]I almost said something... but my car sees more National level events than local :P However, there IS an 8610 option, which will run around $400 less than the 8611 setup. I'd expect the 8611's to be in the $2000 range, with 8610's costing as much as the brand-name JDM coilovers ($1600- $1800). The good thing, is you'll have modular shocks that you can replace in a pinch, however unlike the cheaper shocks that are generally worth throwing away and simply replacing, you'd do well to just rebuild and revalve 8610's and up.

There also aren't many JDM shocks that'll handle 14kg equivolent springs. 8610's and 8611's will laugh at those rates Mine aren't even at half and are overdamped on 11kgs.

[Slappy]

The 240sx has a nasty habit of picking up an inside rear tire. This is a definite no-no if you want to plant any power coming out of a turn. In order to run a rear sway, you'd pretty much need a custom bar up front. I had a whiteline sway up front on mine (heim endlinks) with a stock rear and it was pretty horrible. More grip = more roll, more roll resistance = picking up tires.

I've noticed the "picking up an inside rear tire" deal.

In order to run a rear sway, you'd pretty much need a custom bar up front.

I dont understand what you mean by needing a custom bar upfront. Can you please explain?

[AceInhole]

What I mean is a custom swaybar. I'm not sure that any of the off-the-shelf bars were ever really meant to go on cars that see lateral forces over 1.0G....

Here's an example of what you might find on a road-racing car:

[a_ahmed]

man thats an actual 240 if my eyes dont decieve me, cool something new that i havent seen

More info? Seems like something less expensive yet more hardcore than grabbing largus swaybars lol...

[Slappy]

What I mean is a custom swaybar. I'm not sure that any of the off-the-shelf bars were ever really meant to go on cars that see lateral forces over 1.0G....

Here's an example of what you might find on a road-racing car:

Thats a very interesting piece indeed. But again , can you explain something to me?....

I'm not sure that any of the off-the-shelf bars were ever really meant to go on cars that see lateral forces over 1.0G....

Do you mean that the off-the-shelf bars are incapable of being stiff enough to produce that much lateral G's , or if they seen that much lateral G's they would snap or bend??

[n00b240]

Thats a serious bar up there. I'd be interested in more about that bar. Info's/Links/ Custom Fab

[AceInhole]

Do you mean that the off-the-shelf bars are incapable of being stiff enough to produce that much lateral G's , or if they seen that much lateral G's they would snap or bend??

The following is what I've gathered from experience, and applying basic suspension theory to it. I may, of course, be incorrect in my assessment, but it seems to work for a bunch of successful racers:

It has more to do with roll stiffness and ratio. A swaybar's "job" is to keep the wheels parallel to the chassis. That is, as the body rolls, the swaybar attempts to "roll" the wheels as well, with what's called roll resistance. With stock and most aftermarket spring rates, the natural tendancy of the 240 is to pitch forward in roll (which causes rear wheel lift). In essence, there is more bias to front roll than rear.

Now, this is fine and dandy when the car isn't rolling enough to lift or unload the inside rear wheel. In most cases it provides a natural tendancy towards oversteer. This doesn't really work when you want to apply power, or control the rear end as such, through the rear wheels.

Basically, what I'm saying is: as you increase the grip limits/ lateral handling capabilities of a 240sx, biasing more roll resistance to the front is beneficial for performance.

[AceInhole]

Thats a serious bar up there. I'd be interested in more about that bar. Info's/Links/ Custom Fab

Those bars seem to be pretty common in racing, so I'm sure any shop that does custom suspension work will be able to make one. An example of one of the shops near me is:http://www.smallfortuneracing.....html

[Slappy]

as you increase the grip limits/ lateral handling capabilities of a 240sx, biasing more roll resistance to the front is beneficial for performance.

Ok , so , what your saying here is stiffer in the front is better? Or am i reading that wrong?

[crackler]

Ok , so , what your saying here is stiffer in the front is better? Or am i reading that wrong?

That is what I got out of it.

FWIW:Running a (VERY) large front bar, and no to oem rear bar on miata's is a very common practice

If I am not mistaken, running no rear bar free's the rear tires to move independent of each other in a corning state, with a bar attached, one tire has more or less grip than the other, due to the roll resistance of the bar "picking one wheel up", to compensate for the body roll. The benefit is you retain more grip (in theory) to both drive wheels. this is of course assuming you have enough roll resistance in the rest of the car (and rear springs/dampning) to keep the body roll to a minimum. But I also might not have any idea of how it actually works. This is an educated guess based off of my limited suspension knowledge, in other words; take it for what its worth.


Modified by cracker at 8:12 PM 11/5/2007

[crackler]

Thats a serious bar up there. I'd be interested in more about that bar. Info's/Links/ Custom Fab

http://www.1speedway.com/608_175bars.htm

[a_ahmed]

I was hyped of getting a largus front and pillowball endlinks... but... this seems quite hardcore... what i am wondering though is how does it work.

Now I know that a shorter the bar, the more stiff it is, the longer, the less stiff it is... but.. how exactly does this type of bar 'bend' or absorb the tension.. im just curious... it seems pretty much well.. straight... how does it even get mounted exactly (i wasnt quite clear from the pic if it was hanging or welded in some way to the chassis...)

only thing i can visualize in my head is that tohse side bars bend/move while the center bar keeps them tied together.. and thats what then acts as a swaybar.... am i making sense?...

If you could describe a bit more... it seems pretty rigid for sure...

Other than that... how much would one cost for an s13, and plus how much more effective would it be than say a largus s13 front... I don't want to spend on a largus front (which i intend to) and then want something more and have to sell (happened so many times.. buying/selling.. car projects are never damn ending lol...)

And to be honest this doesnt seem like hard to make... if u have the appropriate tools.. i mean two of those side things ('splines'?) and a bar... seems fairly basic... but then again i know nothing so im assuming alot...

[Slappy]

That is what I got out of it.

FWIW:Running a (VERY) large front bar, and no to oem rear bar on miata's is a very common practice

If I am not mistaken, running no rear bar free's the rear tires to move independent of each other in a corning state, with a bar attached, one tire has more or less grip than the other, due to the roll resistance of the bar "picking one wheel up", to compensate for the body roll. The benefit is you retain more grip (in theory) to both drive wheels. this is of course assuming you have enough roll resistance in the rest of the car (and rear springs/dampning) to keep the body roll to a minimum. But I also might not have any idea of how it actually works. This is an educated guess based off of my limited suspension knowledge, in other words; take it for what its worth.

Well , from reading you and AceInhole's post , im starting to think the rear of my car is overly stiff for any type of serious grip racing. My car oversteers like crazy and even when i rev match and try to correct it ect. , it still doesnt want to "put the power down" enough to ever be able to pull any serious lap times. Thanks for all the input guys.

[AceInhole]

I was hyped of getting a largus front and pillowball endlinks... but... this seems quite hardcore... what i am wondering though is how does it work.

Now I know that a shorter the bar, the more stiff it is, the longer, the less stiff it is... but.. how exactly does this type of bar 'bend' or absorb the tension.. im just curious... it seems pretty much well.. straight... how does it even get mounted exactly (i wasnt quite clear from the pic if it was hanging or welded in some way to the chassis...)

only thing i can visualize in my head is that tohse side bars bend/move while the center bar keeps them tied together.. and thats what then acts as a swaybar.... am i making sense?...

With a blade-link swaybar, you pretty much isolate the bar in torsion. The large center bar basically twists to provide roll resistance. Factory swaybars have both twisting and bending through the multiple bends present in the bar.

With a blade-link bar, you can move the end links on the bar inward to increase torsional resistance, or outward to reduce it, in addition to relocating the endlinks on the blade.

Quote »If you could describe a bit more... it seems pretty rigid for sure...[/quote]Because of the isolated forces, it should be more rigid. You might notice that the bar itself is relocated forward of the OEM mounts, so the blades can be longer.

Quote »Other than that... how much would one cost for an s13, and plus how much more effective would it be than say a largus s13 front... I don't want to spend on a largus front (which i intend to) and then want something more and have to sell (happened so many times.. buying/selling.. car projects are never damn ending lol...)[/quote]I'm not sure how much it'd cost, but I'd expect to pay between $400 - $600 for a one-off bar. It might be more if they actually charge time in developing it.

Quote »And to be honest this doesnt seem like hard to make... if u have the appropriate tools.. i mean two of those side things ('splines'?) and a bar... seems fairly basic... but then again i know nothing so im assuming alot...[/quote]Really you just have to figure out the angular stress for whatever load and figure out what bar or blade length you need. I haven't dont much in researching making the splines, though.

[crackler]

I'm not sure how much it'd cost, but I'd expect to pay between $400 - $600 for a one-off bar. It might be more if they actually charge time in developing it.

There is a kit for the miata, retails for 485.00 or something just short of 500.00I talked to a local guy who had one made by a local race shop for his Colorado, he said it was right around 500.00 for his, He also has one for his s2k, but he didn't say how much it was, I assume it is in that same range.I am thinking of going this route instead of the racing beat hollow bar, all I have to do is justify spending twice as much for a one-off than for the OTS.

You can check ou thte miata "kit" here, at least it will give a good idea of what all is needed.http://www.iscracing.net/Miata_suspension.htm
Modified by cracker at 8:53 AM 11/6/2007

[crackler]

Well , from reading you and AceInhole's post , im starting to think the rear of my car is overly stiff for any type of serious grip racing. My car oversteers like crazy and even when i rev match and try to correct it ect. , it still doesnt want to "put the power down" enough to ever be able to pull any serious lap times. Thanks for all the input guys.

An easy way to check it is, next time you are at an event, unhook one end link from the chassis. If I am not mistaken, this will keep the bar from being able to provide any roll resistance. I have never done this though, I just pulled the whole bar. You might unhook both endlinks, the more I think about it.

It's free and easy to check.
Modified by cracker at 9:19 AM 11/6/2007

[Slappy]

An easy way to check it is, next time you are at an event, unhook one end link from the chassis. If I am not mistaken, this will keep the bar from being able to provide any roll resistance. I have never done this though, I just pulled the whole bar. You might unhook both endlinks, the more I think about it.

It's free and easy to check.

Modified by cracker at 9:19 AM 11/6/2007

Ok , thank you.

[sr20goofus]

is there a specific reason why a bolt on application is not enough for you guys who are talking about going the $500-$600 custom rout?

i know its a little late in the game to respond, but from what i have heard from guys that used to race ITA with 240's was to upgrade front and keep stock rear, or keep stock front and loose the rear bar, allowing better corner exit grip during acceleration.

I havnt ever heard of a 240 lifting a rear wheel on road courses, in any race series, and if it was happening im sure its because they were running rediculous spring rates and dampners combined with 1" sway bars that werent allowing enough droop of the inside wheel.

does anyone actually do any testing of the bolt-on bars to see if they can improve old lap times after testing them for awhile, say 3 track events. I know when i do adjustments i test them for awhile, not just 2 sessions or so, that way i can actually have an idea of whats going on.

[Slappy]

^ Note taken.

[crackler]

I had never seen one before, so I was curious. I found out a couple of the local S2K guys run them, but for a quarter of the price I can get a racing beat 1&1/8 hollow bar.

[AceInhole]

I havnt ever heard of a 240 lifting a rear wheel on road courses, in any race series, and if it was happening im sure its because they were running rediculous spring rates and dampners combined with 1" sway bars that werent allowing enough droop of the inside wheel.

You generally don't hear it, because most guys find out early enough to lose the rear bar :P

Quote »does anyone actually do any testing of the bolt-on bars to see if they can improve old lap times after testing them for awhile, say 3 track events. I know when i do adjustments i test them for awhile, not just 2 sessions or so, that way i can actually have an idea of whats going on. [/quote]My car is an autox car and is admittedly sprung to not run a rear bar. I tried running with the stock rear and a heimed whiteline up front and still had major problems with the inside rear unloading. Those problems are pretty much gone with the removal of the rear bar. I still unload it on tighter stuff, but hoping some tender springs fix that.

Anyways, I randomly got a message from Jeff at 240sxMotoring.com, something like "no rear bar is awesome". I had told him to try running his time attack car without the rear like a month before.

[sr20goofus]

My car is an autox car and is admittedly sprung to not run a rear bar. I tried running with the stock rear and a heimed whiteline up front and still had major problems with the inside rear unloading. Those problems are pretty much gone with the removal of the rear bar. I still unload it on tighter stuff, but hoping some tender springs fix that.

Anyways, I randomly got a message from Jeff at 240sxMotoring.com, something like "no rear bar is awesome". I had told him to try running his time attack car without the rear like a month before.

i know if you run a suspension that does not allow alot of actual travel in the rear suspension then i can see how the rear would unload. If the suspension could open up a bit more, maybe it would be less of a problem, in Auto-x your also putting the car into harsher turns, but at much lower speeds than road racing.

i had planned to try the no bar idea at my last 2 track events in august and october, but i was just too busy to slid myself under the car to pull it off while at the track. I know the combination of stiff front and soft rear works well with 240's as far as swaybars go, but at point dont you think the front might be getting too stiff or too over-engineered?

[91rs13]

i had planned to try the no bar idea at my last 2 track events in august and october, but i was just too busy to slid myself under the car to pull it off while at the track. I know the combination of stiff front and soft rear works well with 240's as far as swaybars go, but at point dont you think the front might be getting too stiff or too over-engineered?

I am no engineer --and a lousy mechanic--but had been running my S13 at Autocrosses with a Whiteline front bar and the rear Whiteline rear bar disconnected. --It "felt" better but I am not sure it was better.

At an AutoX in Sept, A buddy noticed I was only using the inside edge of my rear tires in a turn. --That was about a week before i went to WGI for a Track day. Another friend was right behind me me going into the Carousel ( after the bus stop) --after the heat he asked me what size rear sway bar I had ---as I was lifting the right front tire. When told it was disconnected --he suggested putting it back.

A month later or so --I dropped a second off a previous track day at LRP --with the bar reconnected.

(PS PJ --Jeff was there in his S14 and wanted to follow me through the corners to see how my car handled---but he has a lot more power than me and blew me away down the front straight---so I never got in front of him)

[RyanAwesome]

Keep in mind everyone, that center of gravity, roll center, and roll moment also have huge factors when determining sway bar choices. Full on racecars do use rear swaybars.