Help Me Make My CA18 Fast!

[float_6969]

So you didn't replace the rings and hone the cylinder like we said to and now you have poor compression? Imagine that. Yea, you should get a KA or SR for sure.

[cbh148]

you should get a KA or SR for sure.

U right.

That still doesn't explain why cylinders 1 and 2 have fantastic compression.

[mdb4879]

I talked to my stepdad about it and he figures going from what I said he could probably do the job in 6 hours and he charges $45/hr. I'll talk to you about it more tonight.

I think it has poor compression just those two cylinders because of the machine shop. R&R is a big race shop like Huntsville Engine, and they don't really care about our piddly $1000. They just care about the big boys paying them $15000 to build them a big block. So what happens to us is either they sit our stuff in the corner for 2 months before they even check the bores, or they rush through it to get it out of they're way. So my guess would be that they only took the 2 rods out that they saw fit to be reworked and left the others in. This could also explain why your crank girdle was on backwards, because they rushed through it and didn't pay any attention to what they were doing.

But anyways, fixing this motor would be the least hassle for you I think, and possibly the cheapest.

[cbh148]

I talked to my stepdad about it and he figures going from what I said he could probably do the job in 6 hours and he charges $45/hr. I'll talk to you about it more tonight.

I think it has poor compression just those two cylinders because of the machine shop. R&R is a big race shop like Huntsville Engine, and they don't really care about our piddly $1000. They just care about the big boys paying them $15000 to build them a big block. So what happens to us is either they sit our stuff in the corner for 2 months before they even check the bores, or they rush through it to get it out of they're way. So my guess would be that they only took the 2 rods out that they saw fit to be reworked and left the others in. This could also explain why your crank girdle was on backwards, because they rushed through it and didn't pay any attention to what they were doing.

But anyways, fixing this motor would be the least hassle for you I think, and possibly the cheapest.

Matt, again, thanks a million for the help.

We'll talk about it tonight.

[cbh148]

Also, forgot to mention, but this CA18 doesn't burn any oil. Perhaps still having 60psi prevents oil blow-by on that ring?

[boost_boy]

Unfortunately, you can't put the crank girdle on backwards as the oil pump's pick-up tube would have something to fuss about. However, they can force the bearing camps on backwards or worse, put the bearings in backwards which would lead to instant failure.

[cbh148]

Unfortunately, you can't put crank girdle on backwards as the oil pump's pick-up tube would have something to fuss about. However, they can force the bearing camps on backwards or worse, put the bearings in backwards which would lead to instant failure.

Well I had the shop assemble just the bottom end. When I got the engine home and mounted on the stand to put the oil pump and pan on, I realized something was wrong because, like you said, there was no bracket to hold the pickup tube.

I'm guessing I got the bearings right this time around because I'm at about 2300 miles and haven't heard any rod/main knock. Now to tackle the low compression...

Matt (MDB) says his stepdad, who is a certified mechanic with a lift at his home, can re-ring and re-hone it for about $270, and with the price of rings at only $70 shipped, I'm only looking at $350. However, this is all assuming that my problem is rings. Like I said, I poured a cap of oil in cylinders 3 and 4, and compression shot WAY up to 190 psi. Surely this is a ring issue right? Because I know I got the timing belt on perfect, and I had the head serviced at a shop and they said the valves were sealing up perfect. It's a Cometic MLS headgasket with ARP head/main/rod studs, and the block and head were both resurfaced to a 50 RA finish to accommodate the metal head gasket.

I'm going to the shop that assembled my bottom end tomorrow to raise some hell about this low compression and see if they'll help me out at all. I'm not expecting them to do anything, and I'm already preparing to have it fixed by other means, but I feel that they need to hear me out on how they screwed me over on this. Like I explained in another thread, they told me it didn't need to have new rings and a hone when they were fixing the bearings with only 230 miles on the engine. I would've gladly paid more if it needed it, but they said it was unnecessary.

[float_6969]

I think it's the rings still. More specifically, from what you're describing, the end gap on the 1st or 2nd ring is too big. The oil rings are probably fine, and that's why it's not using any. When you pour oil in the cylinder, it runs down the rings and artificially closes the gap on the rings, increasing the compression. But it's obviously only temporary.

I'm really sorry this machine shop has screwed you around so much. I think when you go in to talk to them you should just lay a big a** hand gun on the counter before you start talking to them. And then tell them how much you miss being a professional arsonist. I think then they might be a bit more motivated to do QUALITY work for you.

[cbh148]

Yeah Float that makes sense about the rings.

I'm waiting to go to the engine shop tomorrow so I can bring an older adult with me. I'm 24, but I look like I'm 16, and combined with the fact that I drive imports, then I fell that the engine shop people just write me off as canon fodder and don't treat me with the same respect that I give them. Especially when you consider that I'm in Alabama, so this engine shop is all domestic v8 stuff. I highly doubt they'll help me out at all. I could maybe see them giving me a "discount" to have the bottom end reassembled, but I doubt it will beat my other options.

More to come.

[float_6969]

Keep us informed.

[s13drifter88]

Never had a problem in my x-billion years of working with R&R, Idk. Either way, if oil raises comp numbers then it's rings. Why I have no clue though, I've always liked the supertech stuff. Go to an SR or back to a KA, if you must then go for it but all the engines are 20+ years old now so another rebuild would be advised... aka more money. You already have good parts for this engine so why scrap it all to rebuild another motor... confucious is confused. Low compression will so this in any engine though, LS RB JZ IPhone... doesn't matter. Have your injectors cleaned and flowed too while it's getting honed and reringed. Forged pistons like yours are mucg stronger than the OE cast ones so ping will now target the next weekest link... the rings can begin to suffer some damage causing a sealing problem consequently low comp numbers. Then it winds up not being the machine shops fault but and dying component. Did you see the drama in Darwins SR on #4? Failing injector left his head and piston looking like a handful of nails had their way with his cylinder.

[mdb4879]

I think most of the speculation about R&R was on my part. I didn't know exactly what all they had done and just assumed they did a quickie because of the type of shop they are. I have no personal experience with them, nor did I realize everything they had done to his short block when he brought it to them last. I had Huntsville Engine do my E16 and what happened with them (or so I suspect, it is possible they were really that busy, but I doubt it) was my stuff took forever to get done. It took 2 weeks to check my block and crank, 4 weeks to do my machine work, then I think another 4 weeks to assemble my short block and a week after that to get a gasket kit and realize they couldn't get the head alignment dowels because they were metric. Don't get me wrong, they did a great job with everything, and for all I know they may have been really backed up, but from what others close to me have said is because they're a big racing machine shop they just kinda sat my stuff to the side and went on with the $15000 big blocks that had a race day deadline to meet. I don't blame them for it either because they're a business like any other and those high-end motors is where they make there money. Anyways, I was just assuming that Casey may have gotten the other side of what could happen with a shop like that is they rush through it to get it out of their way. Granted I don't think R&R would sacrifice their reputation for any job, no matter how small. That was just my initial thought before I was brought up to speed.

[cbh148]

Well, R&R (the shop that repaired and assembled my bottom end) pretty much told me to go f*** myself today. To anybody that cares to read, here's the complaint I just submitted to the Better Business Bureau. Huntsville people beware!

1/13/2012: I brought newly built engine (only 230 miles on it) to R&R to have the bottom end repaired from where several bearings had spun. When I dropped it off, I was asked by the gentleman at the front desk if I wanted new rings and a cylinder hone. I told him that, if the engine needed new rings and a hone, then yes, I wanted them. I was told it would take about a week and a half till my engine would be ready.

3/13/2012: After exactly 2 months of no communication attempts on R&R's behalf, my engine was finally ready. I was charged $713. When I went to pick the engine up, I asked the builder if he ended up putting new rings on, to which he became disgruntled and immediately told me that I had told them I specifically didn't want new rings and a hone. I informed him of how false that assumption was, and filled him in on the conversation that took place between myself and the front desk gentleman regarding my request for a properly built engine with new rings where needed.

I assembled the engine, then 2,000 miles later, I gave it a compression test (5/4/2012). It came up with extremely disappointing numbers on half the cylinders, which were remedied by adding oil to the problematic cylinders (a sure sign of bad rings/hone). I had a professional mechanic diagnose the engine and he reached the same conclusion.

5/9/2012: I went to R&R in person to tell them my situation with hopes that they'd work with me to straighten this problem out, however, to my dismay, they would not even consider it. I spoke with the same gentleman that took my order and wrote the invoice. He believed me to be lying. I remained calm and did not raise my voice or make any sort of scene, and, as always, treated them with the utmost respect. I was told that, because there was no writing about new rings/hone on the invoice that he had filled out, that I must have told them that I explicitly did not want those services performed, which is completely false. I told them to perform those services if they were needed, which they most certainly were.

I was told that I could bring my engine back to have it fixed, but that it would be at full price. Having already paid R&R my hard-earned $713, this seemed unfair, especially when the mistake was on their part and they would not own it. $300 of my bill was for assembly alone, which is absurd because they put my crank girdle on backwards. Fortunately, I caught that mistake before my engine was put back in my car, and corrected it myself, which required significant disassembly and reassembly with my own hands, judgement, and my questionable, borrowed tools -- something that $300 paid to a professional should have covered. I mentioned this to R&R while expressing my concerns about my unsatisfactory service, and they disregarded it completely, saying that I'd have to pay that $300 assembly fee again if I brought the engine back.

I trusted R&R to build me a proper reliable engine, and they let me down, and despite my non confrontational attempts at working towards a happy medium, they still refused to make it right. I'm a broke college student pursuing my 2nd bachelor's degree, and I'm starting to Auburn University in the fall. This car was supposed to get me down there for school, but in the state that R&R has left this engine, I expect I'll have to look into other options. I mean no harm to anybody.

In other news, my quote to get this fixed by MDB's stepdad has risen to $470, $70 of which would be for new rings. Although I think this quote may have been made with the idea that the engine would have to be removed to get the oil pan off. My old pals Google and Float say otherwise though (oil-pan-removal-t202774.html).

[CA18_nut]

If i lived anywhere near you (unfortunately i dont) I would help you fix your engine , it really pisses me off when professionals charge a fortune and then does an half a** job , wtf do we pay them for ! It doesn't matter if it is a small job for 10bucks or a major build for 10grand a customer should always be treated with respect.
I will also confirm that it is possible to remove the oil pan with the engine in place.

I wish you the best of luck

[float_6969]

The engine is going to have to come out to replace the main bearings. You can't get the crank out with the engine still in the car unless you remove the transmission, and which point, it would have been easier to remove the engine, tear it down on a stand, and put it back in.

[cbh148]

Well the bearings are fine. There's no knock of any sort. It just needs new rings and a hone.

He'd just be removing the pan (and likely moving the engine a little up and the crossmember a little down in the process) so he could get to the rods. The head will be removed first before the car goes on the lift so that the pistons and rods will slide out the top.

I'm hoping that the crank girdle won't screw this whole thing up by making it impossible to get to the rod caps, and then also impossible to remove the girdle itself because there'd be nothing to hold the crank up at that point.

[mdb4879]

my quote to get this fixed by MDB's stepdad has risen to $470, $70 of which would be for new bearings.

Typo, he meant rings, not bearings, float. Also, the first price was more of an estimate from info I gave him about the car, before he had ever taken a look at it. I'm not sure if that last estimate was before or after he realized the crossmember was bolted in there, but he did say that'd make it a lot easier. I don't think the girdle will be an issue. I told him before it had a girdle and it seems like he mentioned it'd make it tougher, but I don't think it'll keep him from doing it. I'll ask him again, though.

[cbh148]

Yeah my bad, that was a typo. I just edited it. Good catch Matt.

Yeah I think that estimate was before I told him about how the crossmember can be moved out of the way, because it seemed like he was really pleased to hear that! I remember we were thinking that the girdle might make the oil pan tougher to remove since it would snag on the girdle since the crossmember would prevent it from just coming straight down.

So hopefully, with the head off, the engine raised up off the mounts a bit, the crossmember moved out of the way a bit, and the oil pan off, the girdle won't stop him from getting to the rods to get those pistons out the top side. But I guess with the oil pump still bolted in place, it would support the crankshaft (along with the rear main and transmission input shaft) so that the girdle could be removed with no worries.

Let me know what he says! I'm ready to bring it over ASAP.

[boost_boy]

I would seriously remove this motor from your engine bay. This is not a sneeze job and I wouldn't treat it as such. You are asking for another failure if you go your current path. Take it from someone who has been down that lonely road and have learned valuable lessons from trying to take short-cuts. This engine will make you regret it, so think about it before you fully commit.

[cbh148]

I would seriously remove this motor from your engine bay. This is not a sneeze job and I wouldn't treat it as such. You are asking for another failure if you go your current path. Take it from someone who has been down that lonely road and have learned valuable lessons from trying to take short-cuts. This engine will make you regret it, so think about it before you fully commit.

Dee, this isn't me doing this engine work; it's a bonafide mechanic with mechanical skills, judgment, and experience far beyond my own. I'll leave it up to him, but I still welcome any insight that I or Matt can pass along to the man.

Just out of curiosity, what would you expect to be so bad about popping the pistons out while the engine is still in the car? I think I mentioned it before but I'm not sure -- he's got a car lift, so I don't think it'll be that difficult for him, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he ends up having to pull the engine because there's some unforeseen part that I'm forgetting about that changes this whole operation.

[mdb4879]

Dee, first off I just wanted to say that I highly respect you and your advice along with how you give it. Now, is doing this job in the car a no-no because of your general preference, or is it something that's more specific to this motor? My stepdad has been religiously working on cars for the past 48 years. He's not some redneck who tinkers in his backyard and thinks he's a mechanic. He's very meticulous with everything he works on. He's a semi-machinist, a pilot, an A&P mechanic (airplanes), a welder, was ASE certified (just didn't keep up with his certifications because he had no need to), and is extremely intelligent in general. He stands by his work and warranties anything he does. He knows the risks he takes when he does stuff like this and will warranty anything that goes wrong that in any way may have been at fault due to his work. He even had to eat a job just this past year when he bought a used motor and put in a customer's car and it was a dud, so he had to do the job a second time for free. He will always do things the best way he sees fit, and if he believes there are any issues he will bring them up with the customer and change his approach accordingly. He's worked in dealers in the past and can't stomach how they operate and treat people, so he only does this now to help people more than anything. This doesn't apply to this job, but he charges $45/hr. If the flat rate time is, say, 5 hours and he finishes in 3 hours (which is usually the case) he only charges for 3. If he finishes in 7 he only charges for the flat rate, 5. He's also never had a bottom end problem due to his workmanship, and he's done rings and rod bearings both with the motor in and out of the car without issue (and even mains once, idk how, but he did it). In the 13 years he's been in my family the only two bottom end problems he's had were in a 89 Prelude SI because he used a bent crank with ovaled journals (not his workmanship, he knew of this problem when he got the crank out and checked it, but NEEDED the car to drive so he went with it anyway and I think it got a knock after six months. He would never do this to a customer's car). And the CA16DE originally in my Pulsar SE that got a rod knock after 800 miles because I was being stupid and revving the piss out of it. He did say that there was a possibility that he may end up pulling the motor anyways.

Casey, just thinking out loud, but idk why everybody seems to think having a lift makes someone a better mechanic. Having a lift is just a luxury. If it were me I'd just as soon do the job laying on the concrete with the car on jack stands (but then again I've never used a lift and I'm just weird like that). Just saying that not because of you, but just because of so many people's reactions when they hear someone has a lift.

[cbh148]

Man, my roomate's dad has a lift in his garage, and the few times I ever worked on 240's there were amazing because of it. It's unreal how much less stressful that made things, especially since my cars are always scrapin' piss-ants low. Once I get you set up in an s13 with proper coilovers (set at a proper ride height of course), you'll know what I mean. Helping a buddy jack up his lowered car can be kinda annoying, but having to deal with that PITA process on your own car every time you work on it can make it downright irritating, especially if you're changing wheels at a friend's house or at the drift spot or somewhere without your trusty wood blocks. It's a damn chess move. But still completely worth it.

I don't think he's a good mechanic because he has a lift. I think because he's a good mechanic, he has a lift. Not to say a lift ownership is the mark of a quality worker, but I could expect someone with a helicopter pilot's license to be far better at piloting a helicopter than my mailman.

Needless to say, I'm super jelly of that lift.

[float_6969]

A few things to help out. First off, Rings and hone can be done with the block it the car, but here are the issues;

First is removing the oil pan. After you get the head off, you have to support the engine somehow, undo the engine mounts, anti-sway bar, T/C rods, power steering lines, steering knuckle, and then undo the 4 bolts holding the subframe in place. Depending on where you live, there is a REALLY good chance the sub-frame bolts are rusted and will break when you try to take the nuts off. This is a HUGE issue because if you look closely, both bolts, and both sides don't actually have a head on them. They're tied together with a metal strap. Look at the top of the frame, right at the bottom of the strut tower and you'll see what I'm talking about. If that breaks, you're gonna be in a bad way.

Second, if you get past that with out any issues, dropping the pan isn't too bad, but you may have to remove the oil pickup tube from the oil pump and girdle to remove the pan. It's not hard to remove, but trying to install it back in while holding the oil pan in place with new RTV all over it and not mess up the RTV takes 2 sets of hands.

Removing the rod bearing caps isn't too bad with the girdle on. It kinda sucks, but it's doable.

Here is the next big issue. And it's BIG. When you're ready to hone, you'll notice oil squirters at the bottom of the cylinders. You have to be VERY VERY VERY VERY careful not to hit them with the hone. If you do, they'll break off. And you can't just go buy new ones. You HAVE to get them from another engine, which is next to impossible, because who wants to sell an engine block with no squirters? And I know what you're thinking. Why not just remove them before you hone. Because you can't remove them while the crankshaft and girdle are still in place. I shouldn't say you can't. Maybe it can be done, but I couldn't manage it and ended up removing the motor. Only I had to do it with no head on the block which made it harder to do.

Trust Dee, AND MYSELF on this. Once you get into it, you're going to wish you had removed the engine and put it on a stand.

[r34 gtr]

Doing that job with the engine in the car is going to take longer than if you just pull it out. Sucks man, but having done this many times I agree with the other folks. I have an engine hoist and an engine stand you are welcome to borrow if you need them. Pulling an engine in a s13 is super easy. I am willing to bet you could have it out and on a stand in a few hours.

[mdb4879]

Thanks, Float. That really helps and I'll let my stepdad know and see what he thinks now.

First issue: I was under the assumption the crossmember that goes directly under the oil pan would come off as it's own piece and the whole subframe could be left in place. I think I know what your talking about with the bolts. They're a bolt with a tab sticking off of them that hit something to keep them from rotating when you torque them down and have a nut on the other end? Down here we don't really have any issues with rust unless the car came from up north. I've taken these off with no problem on trucks (they use them on rear bumpers all the time), but I also work on much newer stuff than this so I see the concern.

Second issue: If the crossmember would come off on its own then I figured the oil pan would come straight down. Regardless if the subframe was entirely removed shouldn't the oil pan drop straight down same as if it were on a stand?

Third issue: This does seem like it'd be the biggest problem. My stepdad is extremely careful with this kinda stuff and I'm almost certain he could de-glaze the cylinders with the squirters still there without d!ck them up. Whether he will or not is a different story. Idk how hard it is to take them off with the crank still in, but I'm sure he'd find a way if he felt the need. However, all this will probably be enough to convince him to just pull the motor.

He's more of a "look at how everything is in there and find the best path" kinda guy, so when he sees an issue (and when he realizes all this he won't just blow it off, he'll realize it's an issue) he changes his path accordingly.

[mdb4879]

Thanks Tim, we have a hoist and stand so that isn't an issue. It's just my stepdad's preference on how to go about the job. He hasn't had the car up yet and when he worked at a Nissan dealer back in the day he said the 240's never really had issues so he never worked on them.

[cbh148]

Thanks for the tips. I've pulled many an engine in S-chassis. This info will get passed along to Matt's stepdad.

Being in Alabama, our 240's generally don't get rust. And my 240 has been in AL all of its life. I've swapped crossmembers on one of my previous s13's and didn't encounter the crossmember bolt issue (thank God) so I'm expecting it won't be a problem on this s13.

Also, I do have an extra set of oil squirters in my parts engine. That's not to say that all is well, but at least I know I have extra squirters if needed.

I really hope I'm not coming across as being determined to go against advice, because I'm not. As mentioned, it will be a professional mechanic doing the work. But since I want to save him as much time as possible, I genuinely welcome any more warnings or tips you've got to offer.

[mdb4879]

Also, if it makes any difference he isn't actually going to hone the cylinders. He's just going to use a ball hone to de-glaze the cylinder walls. I asked what the difference was and he said honing is more like a boring process if the walls are messed up but the de-glazing will just rough up the walls a bit and at 2000 miles there's no need to hone it. If he were to hone it then he'd definitely pull the motor.

[nickhebert]

I mean no disrespect to your stepdad but it would be alot easier to pull the motor, I dont know you or him have looked into a cylinder of a ca, but the oil squirters are gonna be in the way. It so simple and easy to take them out if the motor is on a stand and the crank is out. If I had to do this I would just pull the whole motor. If I was closer I would stop by and help as I just did a full rebuilt to a ca and honed it all myself.

[mdb4879]

From what I can tell, it sounds like the motor is just as easy/hard to pull as the subframe would be to get to the oil pan. So if this is the case he'll pull the motor. Either way he has to take the same stuff off and do the same things, so it makes no difference to him. It's just about the time, so if pulling the motor takes less time or the same time with less effort that's what he'll do.