Gaza: No end in sight.

[heliochrome85]

So far the death toll stands at 375+. Israel continues to say that they have a right to defend themselves. Yet, they give the people of Gaza no opportunity to advance their lives and promote peace by continuing a blockade of the region lasting so far 18 months. Without food, water, rations, fuel, currency, the people see Hamas as their only ally in their fight for survival. Its no wonder why Israel continues to have a palestinian problem. Give them no opportuntiy to make something of themselves, then wonder why they fight back at you. When they do, take their land, and cry about the holocaust and how you are a weak and defenseless people.

Its disgusting.http://english.aljazeera.net/n....html

[AZhitman]

Without getting into the whole Israeli / Arab issue (mainly because it's more than I can comprehend), I've gotta say I'm terribly sad for the innocents caught in the midst of all this.

These are scary times, and that conflict could prove to eescalate into something that neither faction can comprehend.

[480sx]

All the while, America supports Israel to the fullest. We supply then with everything. GPS systems, spy sat systems, our more advanced missiles and fighter jets, Helis, tanks, guns, money, EVERYTHING. We also support them politically. It truly is disgusting.

Then we wonder why the middle east hates us so much.

[Urabus GodofTraction]

All the while, America supports Israel to the fullest. We supply then with everything. GPS systems, spy sat systems, our more advanced missiles and fighter jets, Helis, tanks, guns, money, EVERYTHING. We also support them politically. It truly is disgusting.Then we wonder why the middle east hates us so much.

It's less the support of Israel and more the lack of ANY support for a peaceful Palestinian movement. And hatred of Jews. Extremist muslims hate us because we support the Jews (I'm sure they'd find another reason to if we didn't, though). More moderate Muslims (most of the middle east, ehh?) don't hate the U.S. They are...confused... by our stance on Israel-Palestine.

If someone wants to host a .pdf of an essay I wrote on the subject, I think it would make a pretty good read (got a B+ in that class!)

[HashiriyaS14]

The only good to come of the Israel/Palestine insanity in the last few years is the separation of Hamas from Fatah geographically via Hamas taking over Gaza.

Now, granted, Gaza is indeed occupied by many people, most of which are not involved with Hamas, but regardless, this allows Israel to make peace with Fatah while fighting Hamas at the same time, which is a step up from the previous arrangement, IMO.

The trick is going to be to offer the rest of the Gaza residents asylum outside of the region.

[Bubba1]

The only good to come of the Israel/Palestine insanity in the last few years is the separation of Hamas from Fatah geographically via Hamas taking over Gaza.

Now, granted, Gaza is indeed occupied by many people, most of which are not involved with Hamas, but regardless, this allows Israel to make peace with Fatah while fighting Hamas at the same time, which is a step up from the previous arrangement, IMO.

The trick is going to be to offer the rest of the Gaza residents asylum outside of the region.

I also feel bad for the innocent residents caught up in the crossfire, but there is not going to be peace there until Hamas changes it's doctrine calling for the destruction of Israel and stops launching missiles at Israel. I'm not saying Israel is completely innocent, but in this case, Hamas broke a cease fire agreement by firing missiles. Since Hamas refuses to stop it, then Israel has a right to do what's necessary to stop it themselves.

All the while, America supports Israel to the fullest. We supply then with everything. GPS systems, spy sat systems, our more advanced missiles and fighter jets, Helis, tanks, guns, money, EVERYTHING. We also support them politically. It truly is disgusting.

Then we wonder why the middle east hates us so much.

480sx, Switch roles for a moment. Consider if the US were being attacked with missiles daily, and the group who did it said they're gonna continue doing it until all they kill every American, you don't think the US has a right to do what's necessary to stop the bombing? And do you think it would be disgusting for another democracy to financially support the US in defending itself from being attacked?

I suggest reading up on what's really going on there and the history. Very interesting stuff.

[Eikon]

So far the death toll stands at 375+. Israel continues to say that they have a right to defend themselves. Yet, they give the people of Gaza no opportunity to advance their lives and promote peace by continuing a blockade of the region lasting so far 18 months. Without food, water, rations, fuel, currency, the people see Hamas as their only ally in their fight for survival. Its no wonder why Israel continues to have a palestinian problem. Give them no opportuntiy to make something of themselves, then wonder why they fight back at you. When they do, take their land, and cry about the holocaust and how you are a weak and defenseless people.

Its disgusting.http://english.aljazeera.net/n....html

This is obviously a very difficult topic to debate on this forum due to the fact that the major difference between the two sides is religion. Since we don't talk about religion on our forum (in order to keep things civil), this will be a tough conversation to have.

I will say that I can see both sides of this topic. If I were to pretend I lived in Gaza and tried to see things through the eyes of a Palestinian, I would think one way. If I placed myself in Israel and pretended to view the situation from that side... I would see the situation completely different.

I'm going to play devil's advocate on this one and argue from the other side. Please don't take it personal... I'm not attacking your opinion or stating any personal belief of my own... just playing devil's advocate for the sake of a conversation.

What if the Hamas (which is a known terrorlst group) actually lived up to their end of a peace treaty? What if they stopped the suicide bombs and terror attacks in Israel? What if the blockade and sanctions against Gaza are there to prevent Hamas from being any stronger and more threatening than they are? From the Jewish perspective, perhaps the blockades are justified. It's self-defense... Don't they have the right to take action against Hamas in order to protect the Jewish people?

Of the dead, only 60 are Palestinian civilians. (Which is obviously a terrible tragedy). The rest are Hamas soldiers and leaders.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...nians"Underlying the Israeli decision to keep fighting are the more powerful weapons that Hamas has smuggled into Gaza through underground tunnels along the border with Egypt.

Previously militants relied on crude homemade rockets that could reach 12 miles north of Gaza to terrorize Israeli communities near the border. Now they are firing more accurate weapons manufactured in factories in China and Iran that have dramatically expanded their range and put more than one-tenth of Israel's population in their sights, Israeli defense officials say."

It wasn't long ago that Israel controlled the entire region and gave no land to the Palestinians. In hopes for peace they gave up Gaza and the West Bank. Still the Palestinian people support the terrorlst groups that continue to attack Israel's innocent populace as well.

If the Mexicans in Tijuana start shooting rockets and missiles at schools in San Diego, would you expect the US government not to take action?

[hannibal]

Israel would not exist without the support of the US. So Palestians see the US as the source of their oppression. It is truly a teh eff bomb!!!1!!!eleven!!ed up situation.

The Palestians shoot a home made rocket into Israel. Israel responds by dropping a million dollar bomb in Gaza. Its apples and oranges IMO. I can understand Israel's frustration however.

A friend of mine and I were discussing this a few days ago. He made a good point. Why was Arab land taken to give the Jews a nation? They had nothing to do with Hitler's holocaust. Why wasnt East Germany given to the Jews??? Too cold?!?

I honestly dont understand how Israel came to be in its current location...

[heliochrome85]

this was pretty interesting...http://www.huffingtonpost.com/....html

[Eikon]

Israel would not exist without the support of the US. So Palestians see the US as the source of their oppression. It is truly a teh eff bomb!!!1!!!eleven!!ed up situation.

The Palestians shoot a home made rocket into Israel. Israel responds by dropping a million dollar bomb in Gaza. Its apples and oranges IMO. I can understand Israel's frustration however.

A friend of mine and I were discussing this a few days ago. He made a good point. Why was Arab land taken to give the Jews a nation? They had nothing to do with Hitler's holocaust. Why wasnt East Germany given to the Jews??? Too cold?!?

I honestly dont understand how Israel came to be in its current location...

Modern day Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people. They lived there until the Babylonians took them into captivity, then they escaped and came home. They lived there until the Egyptian slavery, then they came home. They lived there while the Roman's ruled them. They lived there until Saladin took over and fought with the Europeans in the crusades. The Jews have a history in that land. This is why that land was chosen for the Israeli nation.

Again.. not giving personal belief and stating it's right or wrong.. just pointing out an answer to your question of why there and not germany.

[bobotech]

I will never forget nor forgive the Palestinians for their jubilant and happy reactions to the attacks on the World Trade Center.

[WDRacing]

The middle east as a whole to include the majority of ALL the people there are f'd up. Always will be...nothing is going to stop the hate and death...nothing. Hate breeds hate and that friggin cesspool is full of it. Sorry if you're one of the extreme minority...

The entire middle east has been killing each other over God since he lit the sun.

No one can say who's right or wrong anymore because there has been so much ugliness for SO LONG that it doesn't even matter. I feel bad for the children.

[heliochrome85]

I will never forget nor forgive the Palestinians for their jubilant and happy reactions to the attacks on the World Trade Center.

yeah, because showing one small group of people and then looping the footage, naturally means everyone sees things the same way. good thing i dont think all white people are all members of the Westboro Baptist Church.

[heliochrome85]

that statement could pass for a telco grade statement, if we only changed the subject from the middle east, to the republicans.

good job making that generality. that very informed, and well researched generality.

[WDRacing]

What because I'm not arabic I'm uninformed? Because I'm not Jewish nor Muslim I'm uninformed and my opinion is wrong becaus it differs from yours? Because, since you're of Arabic decent you MUST know everything.

How about no...

I've been to the Desert, I've seen the people, I've seen the violence and ugliness first hand. I've seen the camps and the children with missing arms and legs. I've seen all kinds of awful...all kinds. The simple fact is that there hasn't been peace in the middle east EVER. Long before we stuck our meddling fingers into the mix, was there unrest.

The entire point was that there has been so much violence for SO long there isn't any distinguishable party/religion/faction that can be blamed. Be it Gaza or Pakistan...the story is always the same. Ruthless...needless violence. All in the name of God.

People suck...that is the only real fact. We will kill each other so long as there is someone that disagree's with us. The middle east just happens to have the longest recorded history. All of which is full of violence and death.

So...call my statement ignorant. I call it simple fact.

[heliochrome85]

you know, i thought about it, and yes i will call it igornant.

im not basing my position because of my heritage, because your heritage does not defacto convey upon you anything more than a cursory knowledge of your history. you think the middle east has always had bloodshed? have you looked at Europe? in reality, id say the middle east has had less bloodshed throughout its time than many other areas. Think about it, on a grand scale, most of the time, the vast majority of the middle east lived peacefully. Power changed hands rarely, and when it did, it did in a big fashion. Think Romans, Ottomans, Persians. We didnt have an invasion every other week like they did in Europe.

IN ADDITION: the vast majority of the middle east lives peacefully today. If you think about it, all of the conflicts in the middle east currently are of western derivation. Iraq---US. Lebanon - France/the West. Israel-Palestine - The West.

My point is that if you want to say that the middle east is nothing but bloodshed and violence, then you must also realise that its only the result of western influence. The US would not have a terror problem if it didn't treat the middle east, and its people as red headed step children.

[WDRacing]

Like I said, since God lit the sun we've been killing each other in the name of one thing or another. I didn't mention Europe because we weren't talking about it at the time. But I'll certainly not disagree with you.

[Cold_Zero]

Hey Helio, I can find one good thing about this mess! At least Israel is not bombing the **** out of Southern Lebanon!

[bobotech]

yeah, because showing one small group of people and then looping the footage, naturally means everyone sees things the same way. good thing i dont think all white people are all members of the Westboro Baptist Church.

Such a stretch of an analogy. Good try though, keep up the good work.

[480sx]

480sx, Switch roles for a moment. Consider if the US were being attacked with missiles daily, and the group who did it said they're gonna continue doing it until all they kill every American, you don't think the US has a right to do what's necessary to stop the bombing? And do you think it would be disgusting for another democracy to financially support the US in defending itself from being attacked?

I suggest reading up on what's really going on there and the history. Very interesting stuff.

It would be hard to avoid following the path of the Israeli Government if the situation were reversed.

Good stuff.

I really should take a class or two on the history of the middle east. Very acute..

You really have to wonder though if the supporting democracy's roll in the conflict has done anything more than escalate the violence, fuel for the fire if you will. In addition to that, we have made a new set of enemies in the process of supporting a 'sister' democracy. Hamas was a small group of extremists i believe.. Now they are a political party. Again, i need a history lesson.

In addition, war is a global economic phenomenon/force. American companies profit from supplying these weapons to Israel. Breaking out of that... for lack of a better expression.. 'bad habit' is going to be unbelievably difficult.

It's less the support of Israel and more the lack of ANY support for a peaceful Palestinian movement. And hatred of Jews. Extremist muslims hate us because we support the Jews (I'm sure they'd find another reason to if we didn't, though). More moderate Muslims (most of the middle east, ehh?) don't hate the U.S. They are...confused... by our stance on Israel-Palestine.

Interesting

If someone wants to host a .pdf of an essay I wrote on the subject, I think it would make a pretty good read (got a B+ in that class!)

Someone should.

The US would not have a terror problem if it didn't treat the middle east, and its people as red headed step children.

Agreed.

[Bubba1]

It would be hard to avoid following the path of the Israeli Government if the situation were reversed.

Good stuff.

I really should take a class or two on the history of the middle east. Very acute..

You really have to wonder though if the supporting democracy's roll in the conflict has done anything more than escalate the violence, fuel for the fire if you will. In addition to that, we have made a new set of enemies in the process of supporting a 'sister' democracy. Hamas was a small group of extremists i believe.. Now they are a political party. Again, i need a history lesson.

In addition, war is a global economic phenomenon/force. American companies profit from supplying these weapons to Israel. Breaking out of that... for lack of a better expression.. 'bad habit' is going to be unbelievably difficult.

That is a good question. In many cases US's involvement in matters abroad have ultimately resulted in making matters worse for the US. I'm sure we can all name examples. But the issues that involve Israel, the Palestinians and other arabs run much deeper than any US or European company's profiting from selling their wares.

[hannibal]

Modern day Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people. They lived there until the Babylonians took them into captivity, then they escaped and came home. They lived there until the Egyptian slavery, then they came home. They lived there while the Roman's ruled them. They lived there until Saladin took over and fought with the Europeans in the crusades. The Jews have a history in that land. This is why that land was chosen for the Israeli nation.

Again.. not giving personal belief and stating it's right or wrong.. just pointing out an answer to your question of why there and not germany.

I appreciate the response, as I believe history holds the root of the problem as well as the solution. I understand that Jews have lived there 'since the beginning of time'. But so have the Arabs. If both lived there thru Roman occupation and into the 20th century, how can land be taken from shared territory and given to displaced Jews? I assume many Jews left 'Israel' and relocated to Europe. After Hitler's era, they needed a place to flee.

I dont get how Israel wasnt a modern nation til 1948. What was there before WWII? Countries like Greece and Ethiopia have existed for 100s of years. Why wasnt Israel a recognized sovereign state?

I renewed my search for a pre 1948 map of the area. The area of modern day Israel is never labelled as country, just disputed territory. In some older maps, its labelled as Syria.

This map is huge.http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps...3.jpg

Another one from 750 ADhttp://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps...0.jpg

List of historical Middle East maps...http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps....html

Not trying to start something, just trying to understand. Hopefully someone with more knowledge than me can provide insight...

Another thought... European imperialism created many problems in central Africa by lumping rival groups together in the same post colonial territory. Could imperalism be the cause of why Arabs and Jews found themselves fighting for land they had shared for centuries?

[telcoman]

that statement could pass for a telco grade statement, if we only changed the subject from the middle east, to the republicans.

good job making that generality. that very informed, and well researched generality.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Israelis and Arabs finally realized that if they continued fighting, they would someday end up destroying the world. So they sat down and decided to settle the whole dispute with a dogfight. The negotiators agreed that each country would take five years to develop the best fighting dog they could. The dog that won the fight would earn its country the right to rule the disputed areas. The losing side would have to lay down its arms.

The Arabs found the biggest, meanest Dobermans and Rottweilers in the world. They bred them together and then crossed their offspring with the meanest Siberian wolves. They selected only the biggest, strongest puppy from each litter, killed all the other puppies and fed them the best food. They used steroids and trainers in their quest for the perfect killing machine.

After the five years were up, they had a dog that needed iron prison bars on its cage. Only the trainers could handle this beast. When the day of the big fight arrived, the Israelis showed up with a strange animal. It was a nine-foot-long Dachshund.

Everyone felt sorry for the Israelis. No one else thought this weird animal stood a chance against the growling beast in the Arab camp. The bookies predicted the Arabs would win in less than a minute. The cages were opened. The Dachshund waddled toward the center of the ring.

The Arab dog leapt from his cage and charged the giant wiener-dog. As he got to within an inch of the Israeli dog, the Dachshund opened its jaws and swallowed the Arab beast in one bite. There was nothing left but a small bit of fur from the killer dog's tail.

The Arabs approached the Israelis, shaking their heads in disbelief. 'We do not understand,' said their leader. 'Our top scientists and breeders worked for five years with the meanest, biggest Dobermans and Rottweilers. They developed a killing machine.''Really?' the Israeli General replied. 'For five years, we've had a team of Jewish plastic surgeons in Beverly Hills working to make an alligator look like a Dachshund.'-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Perhaps someone can tell me what contributions have Arabs and Palestinians ever given to the world besides terrorists?

http://judaism.about.com/od/am...s.htm

On a more serious note, the republicans were soundly defeated mostly because of their stupidity in picking an unqualified VP as well as screwing up our economy along with a useless war in Irag as I predicted.

If the Palestinians refuse to live in peace along side Israel then they have every right to totally destroy them just as the US has every right to completely destroy the taliban and any other terrorlst group thet threatens our security.

The US will continue to support Israel because the majority of Americans support Israel and it is political suicide to oppose them. Should Iran pose a threat to either them or us, Israel will wipe them off the map.

Telcoman
Modified by telcoman at 2:55 PM 1/3/2009

[Eikon]

I dont get how Israel wasnt a modern nation til 1948. What was there before WWII? Countries like Greece and Ethiopia have existed for 100s of years. Why wasnt Israel a recognized sovereign state?

Another thought... European imperialism created many problems in central Africa by lumping rival groups together in the same post colonial territory. Could imperalism be the cause of why Arabs and Jews found themselves fighting for land they had shared for centuries?

Here's a quick synopsis of the history of the region.

-According to the Bible the Jews descended from Abraham and settled the area around 1800 BC.-Around 925 the Jews had a civil war and divided into two nations... Northern part was Israel and the Southern was Judah.-In 722 BC the Assyrians conquered and enslaved Isreal.-In 597 BC the Babylonians conquered and enslaved Judah.-In 539 the Persians rolled through and destroyed Assyria and Babylon. This freed the Jews to return to their homeland and rebuild.-In 333 the Greeks took over the area.-In 63 BC the Romans took over the area.-In 330 the Byzantines took over the area.-In 638 the Muslims took over the area.-From 1100 to 1200 was a time of constant turmoil called the Crusades.-1244 to 1517 saw the region fought over by the Mamluks and the Ottomans.-from 1517 to 1917 the Ottomans controlled the region.

During the entirety of the history listed above, the Jews inhabited the region. Many were enslaved and removed forcefully. Many left the area on their own. The spread of the Jewish people is called Diaspora.

In the late 1880's a large number of Jewish people from the rest of the world began to return to rejoin the existing population of Jews in the "homeland".

In WW1 Turkey joined Germany and was defeated.Britain and France divided the Turkish Empire and Britain was given control of the area in question. Because the area had been in constant control by invaders from various areas since the Jewish nations of Israel and Judah, the British looked favorably on the Jews in the area and began to consider the rebirth of Israel.

Since the area was occupied by a mix of Arabs and Jews, the British divided the territory into two regions. The Western 25% called Palestine and the Eastern 75% called Trans-Jordan. The Arab portion was renamed Jordan in 1946.

In the Western portion of the region (now called Palestine), the Arabs refused to move to the Arab Eastern area and refused to live peacefully with the Jews in the Jewish Western area. So they fought each other.

Finally in 1947, the British got sick of the conflicts and turned the region over to the United Nations. UN Plan 181 once again partitioned the area into a Jewish half and an Arab half. Despite being limited to 1/2 of 1/4 of the initial "homeland" the Jews agreed to the plan. The Arabs refused once again and continued to fight.

In 1948 the Jews in Palestine created their own nation called Israel.

On the next day, seven neighboring Arab armies... Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Yemen... invaded Israel. After more than a year of fighting the Israeli's survived the war and took back the area that the UN suggested in Plan 181. They did however allow the Arabs to live in the West Bank and Gaza rather than being displaced from the region.

In 2004 the Jews completely gave back the West Bank and Gaza.

Now in 2008/2009 Israel is fighting against Hamas in order to protect their safety from terrorists.

[Eikon]

If the Palestinians refuse to live in peace along side Israel then they have every right to totally destroy them just as the US has every right to completely destroy the taliban and any other terrorlst group thet threatens our security.

It's not fair to say that the Palestinians as a whole aren't peaceful. I believe 99% are great people who could and would live peacefully alongside the Jews in the region.

It's the 1% that are Hamas or Hezbollah or Fatah or other extremist groups that ruin everything.

What's unfortunate is that the Palestinian people don't rise up against those terrorists who live amongst them. But it's pretty easy to turn a blind eye to those who do bad things if those same people say they fight on your behalf.

[telcoman]

It's not fair to say that the Palestinians as a whole aren't peaceful. I believe 99% are great people who could and would live peacefully alongside the Jews in the region.

It's the 1% that are Hamas or Hezbollah or Fatah or other extremist groups that ruin everything.

What's unfortunate is that the Palestinian people don't rise up against those terrorists who live amongst them. But it's pretty easy to turn a blind eye to those who do bad things if those same people say they fight on your behalf.

Actually I agree with you. 99% of Arabs, Muslims, and Palestinian people are peaceful. It is that other 1% that cause all the problems in the world.

[WDRacing]

Great joke dude...that was hilarious. Well played sir!!!

[AZhitman]

The Palestians shoot a home made rocket into Israel. Israel responds by dropping a million dollar bomb in Gaza. Its apples and oranges IMO. I can understand Israel's frustration however.

In the interests of not intervening in a great discussion, whch I hope everyone will use as a springboard to MORE reading and MORE learning about the topic, I'm just going to respond to this tiny comment....

It's NOT apples and oranges.

If I'm out in public, and some chump with no job and no money hits one of my loved ones with a stick because that's all he can afford, am I restricted to using only a like weapon to defend them?

HELL NO.

That person is gonna get the full force and effect of whatever I happen to have on hand at the time, whether it be an ASP, a firearm, or a Kenpo-fueled a$$-whuppin'.

Peace through strength. If an aggressor chooses to use homemade improvised explosive devices to take out our soldiers, then they get a laser-guided high-explosive ordinance straight up the poopchute.

You wanna bring a fingernail clipper to a gunfight, be my guest - But don't whine because I have a bigger, badder, and more effective weapon waiting to retaliate.

[S13_love]

Peace through strength. If an aggressor chooses to use homemade improvised explosive devices to take out our soldiers, then they get a laser-guided high-explosive ordinance straight up the poopchute.

You wanna bring a fingernail clipper to a gunfight, be my guest - But don't whine because I have a bigger, badder, and more effective weapon waiting to retaliate.

Lol, well put.

[telcoman]

You wanna bring a fingernail clipper to a gunfight, be my guest - But don't whine because I have a bigger, badder, and more effective weapon waiting to retaliate.

The Palestinian people elected Hamas (a terrorlst group) to represent them on a platform to destroy Israel. Then they start launching rockets into Israel killing civilians and now wonder why Israel is invading Gaza.

teh eff bomb!!!1!!!eleven!! em all. Israel has every right to now destroy every building still standing in Gaza to teach those motherteh eff bomb!!!1!!!eleven!!ers a lesson.

Either live in peace alongside Israel or die

Telcoman