Gaza: No end in sight.

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telcoman wrote:
The Palestinian people elected Hamas (a terrorlst group) to represent them on a platform to destroy Israel. Then they start launching rockets into Israel killing civilians and now wonder why Israel is invading Gaza.

teh eff bomb!!!1!!!eleven!! em all. Israel has every right to now destroy every building still standing in Gaza to teach those motherteh eff bomb!!!1!!!eleven!!ers a lesson.

Either live in peace alongside Israel or die

Telcoman
Damn...the moment I never thought would come has arrived. 09 will surely be filled with strange events. I actually agree with Telco

I was sitting around with a group of friends the other night, discussing why man is intent on killing each other. No one had anything of substance to add other then agreeing that it's in our nature to destroy ourselves. For the life of me I can't figure out why we can't simply LIVE.

I stood behind my belief that we should just live our own lives as best we can and not bother those around us. Which was countered by a close friend with this, "not everyone is a good person, those people will hurt others, by not helping those in need you are only helping the bad people become worse". So in essence, my lack of "bothering" is in fact doing something. But that something has negative effects rather then positive ones. The trouble comes into play when you are dealing with a society or large population. Who decides what we do, or who is in the wrong? Do we do nothing?

It doesn't matter if it's Israel or Africa...the old saying rings true every time. "The only thing required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing".

WD


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WDRacing wrote:
Damn...the moment I never thought would come has arrived. 09 will surely be filled with strange events. I actually agree with Telco


<heads out to buy 10 lottery tickets>

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I get 5% right?

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telcoman
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WDRacing wrote:I get 5% right?
Me too

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hannibal
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Thanks for the lesson Eikon.

About apples and oranges...From my understanding, the Allied forces began supporting a Jewish state after WWI. Following WWII, they also began supplying Israel's army. How else did Israel defend itself the day after it was created? This is the same group that had been invaded and defeated dozens of times by a dozen different groups.

I think the correct statement would be Dont bring a gun to a fingernail clipper fight. Without the intervention of the British and the US, it would have been another local conflict. And because we gave them arms, Israel survived. I believe this may be this source of Arab aggression against the US. We supplied weapons to Israel and they were used to kill Arabs.
Modified by hannibal at 8:46 PM 1/4/2009

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AZhitman wrote:
In the interests of not intervening in a great discussion, whch I hope everyone will use as a springboard to MORE reading and MORE learning about the topic, I'm just going to respond to this tiny comment....

It's NOT apples and oranges.

If I'm out in public, and some chump with no job and no money hits one of my loved ones with a stick because that's all he can afford, am I restricted to using only a like weapon to defend them?

HELL NO.

That person is gonna get the full force and effect of whatever I happen to have on hand at the time, whether it be an ASP, a firearm, or a Kenpo-fueled a$$-whuppin'.

Peace through strength. If an aggressor chooses to use homemade improvised explosive devices to take out our soldiers, then they get a laser-guided high-explosive ordinance straight up the poopchute.

You wanna bring a fingernail clipper to a gunfight, be my guest - But don't whine because I have a bigger, badder, and more effective weapon waiting to retaliate.
The problem is that the person who hit you was hired to hit you because you presented yourself as a jerk who wanted to control the employers of that person or keep them from becoming your equal.

As long as you are there being a jerk you will keep getting smacked and you will keep being a jerk.

That sums up the whole Hamas vs Israel conflict.

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Every thread you post in turns to crap. So please don't reply anymore in this thread. If it goes astray because of anything you've posted I'll just Ban you from Nico. You've been warned enough.

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hannibal wrote:About apples and oranges...From my understanding, the Allied forces began supporting a Jewish state after WWI. Following WWII, they also began supplying Israel's army. How else did Israel defend itself the day after it was created? This is the same group that had been invaded and defeated dozens of times by a dozen different groups.

I think the correct statement would be Dont bring a gun to a fingernail clipper fight. Without the intervention of the British and the US, it would have been another local conflict. And because we gave them arms, Israel survived. I believe this may be this source of Arab aggression against the US. We supplied weapons to Israel and that were used to kill Arabs.
I think that is a very well-written and well-thought response!

I have no idea was level of support the Jews in the region got at that time. So I'm not educated enough to speak on that topic.

I will say though that I've read some interesting thoughts on why the Jews were able to survive and actually win the war in 1948-49. From what I read, it sounds like when the 6 surrounding nations declared war on Israel, they promised the occupying Arabs the property of those Jews who were killed. Apparently, the Arabs were told to to let the outsiders do the dirty work, then come back in when the war was over to claim their prize. 70% of them left into neighboring countries. 19 months later, they were wrong about the results of the war. The 30% who stayed remain as Arab-Israeli citizens today, while the 70% are now called "refugees" because they were not allowed to re-enter the land.

As for the part about being invaded and conquered dozens of times.. yep, pretty much true. The Middle-East is the most hotly contested piece of land in the entire world. It's the crossroads of the 3 largest continents and the center of the world for centuries. Israel just happens to be the main intersection on the road to all the rest of the world. So anytime an empire from one of the continents decides to expand into another.. they roll right over Israel on the way there.


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bobotech wrote:I will never forget nor forgive the Palestinians for their jubilant and happy reactions to the attacks on the World Trade Center.
Please do some research on this one ... the video" showing the so-called jubilation of the Palestinians was widely reported to have been a scam perpetrated by a couple of reporters from a news organization. Hence, you don't see it much anymore.

Some information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R...world

I do not trust the media anywhere in the world anymore ... now that Walter Cronkite has retired. Rather than report on the news, they try to make it.

Z

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telcoman wrote:Perhaps someone can tell me what contributions have Arabs and Palestinians ever given to the world besides terrorists?
(Sigh ... I just love it - NOT - when people think and speak without doing their homework!)

Among many other things: many contributions to mathematics (algebra, algorithms - both are derived words from Arabic, our current numbering system - concept of zero brought from India to the west), science (physics and chemistry, chemicals, etc.), fundamental astronomy (did you know that many stars have Arab names?), literature and poetry, medicine, law, etc., etc., etc.

http://www.imarabe.org/ang/per....htmlh ... 0/014.html

I'll give you just one quote to think about and then ask you all to do some homework instead of spouting without thinking:

Quote »Language is a marvellous recorder of meetings between cultures, a living museum. For proof of this, one need look no further than the ports of the Mediterranean, where linguistic boundaries are scorned and their rules broken; thus are linguae francae created.

The following lines (freely translated from Sigrid Hunke's Le soleil d'Allah brille sur l'occident: notre héritage arabe) are a playful presentation of just some of the terminology – and objects – that the West has borrowed from the Arabs.

The Spice of Daily Life. Or, Arab Names for Arab Gifts.

"Might I invite you to have something with me in this café? Take off your jacket and sit down here on this sofa, unless you would rather sit on the divan with the crimson mattress, of course. Would you like a cup of coffee – with one sugar lump or two? Or perhaps a nice cool carafe of lemonade, or even something alcoholic?

"But of course! Let me buy you lunch! I think artichokes would be a lovely starter, don't you? And how about capon with rice and spinach to follow? For dessert, what would you say to a piece of apricot tart, or an orange sorbet? And at the end of the meal we'll have a cup of mocha.

There is no reason, of course, for any of these things to appear in any way strange or exotic to you – they have been part of our daily life for such a long time. But did you know that they were all borrowed from a foreign culture, namely Arab culture? This café and the demitasses of coffee they serve, the sugar without which any menu would be almost unimaginable, the lemonade and the carafe, the jacket and the mattress, we owe them all to the Arabs. And it doesn't stop there: in most European countries, these things are known by their Arabic names! And the same goes for candy, bergamot, oranges, sherbet and many other good things besides.

Well, you might say, there's nothing so surprising about fruits that grow in hot countries (and even certain foodstuffs and drinks) coming from the Orient; and, that being the case, why shouldn't they keep their original names, after all?

As for the sofa or the divan, or the ottoman in the alcove, on which it is so nice to flop down – well, any child could tell you that such exotic sounding words could only be 'foreign'. Morocco leather – there's another easy one. But what about the textiles that you might find alongside your morocco leather bags in the same shop? There's muslin and other cotton cloths, soft and supple mohair, elegant satin, distinguished taffeta, shimmering moiré, sumptuous damask (originally from the city of Damascus), and all in such a range of shades, from saffron through orange and carmine to lilac. So many gentle reminders that it is to the Arabs that we owe these useful and precious fabric as well as their striking colours.

But you also encounter a host of Arab "discoveries" whenever you set foot in a pharmacy or a herbalist's. You only need glance at the labels on the jars and draws: you might find camphor, benjoin and benzine, soda, borax and saccharine, perhaps also amber, gum Arabic and cumin, not to mention tarragon, ginger and saffron – all of them Arab drugs with Arabic names. The gauze, talc or hair lacquer that you might buy at the pharmacy are also of Arabic origin, as are numerous chemical terms such as alkali or aniline.[/quote]Z

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Well-said, Z.

This is an issue that requires extreme discipline and self-control to discuss in an intelligent manner.

There's no room for ignorance or uninformed statements in such a divisive and confusing topic.


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AZhitman wrote:This is an issue that requires extreme discipline and self-control to discuss in an intelligent manner.

There's no room for ignorance or uninformed statements in such a divisive and confusing topic.
Totally agreed!

Z

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Right on Eikon. Any group trying to expand their territory eventually had to go thru the Middle East. And because of Israel's location, they were forced to watch their back from all sides. Hard to do for 3000 years...

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telcoman wrote:Perhaps someone can tell me what contributions have Arabs and Palestinians ever given to the world besides terrorists?
szhosain wrote:
(Sigh ... I just love it - NOT - when people think and speak without doing their homework!)

Among many other things: many contributions to mathematics (algebra, algorithms - both are derived words from Arabic, our current numbering system - concept of zero brought from India to the west), science (physics and chemistry, chemicals, etc.), fundamental astronomy (did you know that many stars have Arab names?), literature and poetry, medicine, law, etc., etc., etc.

http://www.imarabe.org/ang/per....htmlh ... 0/014.html

I'll give you just one quote to think about and then ask you all to do some homework instead of spouting without thinking:Z
This exchange reminds me of the scene in Montey Python's 'Life of Brian.' "But what have the Romans really given us?"

Ha!

Howie, the same can be said about Germany. What has Germany given us? Other than World War I, World War II, the Genocide of Jews, Gypsies and others, and Eugenics?

Seriously, back on topic. The Israeli Government said it sent 80 aid trucks into the Southern Pass of Gaza to send relief. But Hammas is unwilling to distribute the aid.

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the count now is 595 dead of which 195 are children.

how frustrating.

also, the press isnt allowed into gaza. even though the israeli supreme court cleared the way for them to enter unconditionally.

you stay classy israel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7814054.stm

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01....html

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The situation there is getting ridiculously sad day by day.

Z

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heliochrome85 wrote:the count now is 595 dead of which 195 are children.

how frustrating.

also, the press isnt allowed into gaza. even though the israeli supreme court cleared the way for them to enter unconditionally.

you stay classy israel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7814054.stm

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01....html
I'm not arguing with you, but here are parts of the articles you linked that explain what's going on..

Regarding journalists at the battle front:

“This is the result of what happened in the 2006 Lebanon war against Hezbollah,” noted Nachman Shai, a former army spokesman who is writing a doctoral dissertation on Israel’s public diplomacy. “Then, the media were everywhere. Their cameras and tapes picked up discussions between commanders. People talked on live television. It helped the enemy and confused and destabilized the home front. Today, Israel is trying to control the information much more closely.”

He and others, including the post-Lebanon war investigation commissioned by the government, said that the army had found that when reporters were allowed onto the battlefield in Lebanon, they got in the way of military operations by posing risks and asking questions.

As Maj. Avital Leibovich, an army spokeswoman, said, “If a journalist gets injured or killed, then it is Central Command’s responsibility.” She said they are trying to protect Israel from rocket fire and “not deal with the media.”

Regarding the deaths of children:The Israeli military said that, according to initial checks, its soldiers had come under mortar fire from militants inside the al-Fakhura school.

"The force responded with mortars at the source of fire," it said in a statement. "Hamas cynically uses civilians as human shields."

I can understand the logic behind keeping journalists out of the battle zone.

I cannot understand the logic behind firing at a school. Regardless of the situation... you retreat and get your troops away from the fire, or you send the troops in on foot to raid the school... you don't blow it up.

The loss of innocent children is an atrocity. It makes me sad.

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hannibal wrote:Right on Eikon. Any group trying to expand their territory eventually had to go thru the Middle East. And because of Israel's location, they were forced to watch their back from all sides. Hard to do for 3000 years...
It was very insightful. But I think you can acually get more specific than the middle east. The one piece of real esate that everyone seems to be after is Jerusalem. Not only is it the long time spiritual capital of Judaism, it's also the third most holy city for Islam, and contains many important sites for Christianity.

You'll find the Israeli-Palestinian problem is much more than just Gaza. Jerusalem is a major part. The Palestinians had long expected that East Jerusalem would become the "capital" of their future state. That is, assuming they could ever get their act together to form a state, which is an issue by itself.

Israel threw a monkey wrench in that vision when they annexed East Jerusalem (formerly controlled by Jordan I think) in 1967 at the end of the 6 day war, making it unified and "secure" The UN published a strongly worded yet ultimately weak resolution condemning Israel's move. The end result was most of the foreign embassies got relocated to Tel Aviv, but Israel retained control.

While I have great sympathy for the Palestinian people, their allowing a violent extremist group like Hamas to represent them gives them zero chance at peace . At some point the Palestinian people will have to accept that they've made a dreadful choice with Hamas and change to a more pragmatic leadership. But that's "easier said than done."

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_israel_palestinians

Israel fails...honestly a school?

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S13_love wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_israel_palestinians

Israel fails...honestly a school?
Some things I saw interesting from this article.

"I saw women and men — parents — slapping their faces in grief, screaming, some of them collapsed to the floor. They knew their children were dead," he said. "In the morgue, most of the killed appeared to be children. In the hospital, there wasn't enough space for the wounded."

He said there appeared to be marks on the pavement of five separate explosions in area of the school.

A total of 71 Palestinians were killed Tuesday — with just two confirmed as militants, Gaza health officials said.

This is sad.

antiwar.com usually has good articles on this type of thing.

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S13_love wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_israel_palestinians

Israel fails...honestly a school?
When combatants use a school or any other civilian building to launch rocket attacks (militiary staging ground), then a school ceases to be 'a school.'

This would be no different from Northern Command ordering an F-15 to shoot an 747 out of the sky that is headed towards Washington DC that has been highjacked by terrorists.

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News starting to come out states that Hamas had not only used the school area to fire mortars at Israel but they had wired the school with explosives which went off as a secondary explosion after the Israeli strike.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/S...wFull

Of the death toll thus far how many were killed due to Hamas rockets not making it to Israel? I'm sure that's the Jews fault too. How many are being labeled as civilians when they were not? How many of the pictures are staged (remember the "green helmeted guy" who was in all the staged photo's a few years ago?). Let's keep ignoring the inability of Hamas to stop their own people from firing rockets into Israel (who has had rockets hit multiple schools over the last couple weeks) and blame everything on Israel. Face it, people don't like Jews and wish them all dead.

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I think Bill Bennett summed it up nicely.1. Israel is attacked with Rocket and Mortar fire.2. The international observers say nothing.3. Israel counter attacks.4. The international observers condemn the attack saying that it went too far.5. The UN convenes and condemns Israel.

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When you're leadership is a terorist group WTF do you expect? It's the same way with us and any war we're involved with. The friggin terrorlst SOBs run inside a school, or house full of civilians...or a mosque. THEY chose...

Don't want Israel to bomb and invade...then STOP attacking them...DONE. The HAMAS chose this NOT Israel.

War sucks period, children dying is the ugliest thing in any conflict. But it happens in EVERY conflict. This isn't some new thing that Israel just started.Is it sad, hell yes...but HAMAS chose. Wanna call someone "classy"? How about the Hamas soldiers running into the school and using it as a base of operations.


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Well said, Brian.

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WDRacing wrote:War sucks period, children dying is the ugliest thing in any conflict. But it happens in EVERY conflict. This isn't some new thing that Israel just started.Is it sad, hell yes...but HAMAS chose. Wanna call someone "classy"? How about the Hamas soldiers running into the school and using it as a base of operations.
The more collateral damage they can bring to their civilians the more pressure they can bring against Israel. Their actions are intentional as any counter action by Israel always brings about condemnation by the UN and other Governments. With the way they brainwash kids and and such it would not surprise me if the kids being killed did not go their knowingly and with their parents permission (or parental pressure or the parents putting them in harms way intentionally). When you are taught from childhood that blowing yourself up for your cause is the only thing important in life then I put nothing past them.

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Again I'll state that the Israeli army SHOULD NEVER fire on a school filled with children... regardless of how many Hamas terrorists are inside. That's an atrocity in my eyes.

But I think this cartoon says a lot.

Hamas is equally to blame for using civilians as sheilds. They also have those children's blood on their hands.

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They were responding to fire they were receiving. Should they wait until the militants have finished shooting all their munitions and fled the scene then gone in to make sure the area was clear of people before firing? That's the problem with putting all the blame at Israels feet for deaths of any kids at that school (not saying you are but others in this thread sure seem to be doing it).

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audtatious wrote:They were responding to fire they were receiving. Should they wait until the militants have finished shooting all their munitions and fled the scene then gone in to make sure the area was clear of people before firing? That's the problem with putting all the blame at Israels feet for deaths of any kids at that school (not saying you are but others in this thread sure seem to be doing it).
Post #7000 for me. lol.

Anyhow.. to your point. Yes, I believe when they are the aggresor in the conflict, when the lives of children (a lot of children) are at stake, I believe they should have retreated from the area and come back at a different time or place. I personally believe that would have been the right thing to do given what little knowledge I have of the situation.

Had those Hamas agents been in a position to kill numerous Israeli citizens, and the bombing of that school and the deaths of those children would have been necessary to stop it... then perhaps my take would be different.

Either way, Hamas is equally to blame for the deaths. They put the children in harm's way intentionally. And I'm not even taking into the consideration the report that they wired the school with explosives themselves. If that's true then my feelings will sway even further against them.


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Hamas has hit at least 3 Israeli schools in the last week alone. They do not care if the target is adult or child, only death and destruction. While I would like Israel to have another way to respond than what they are I simply do not know what that would be. Hamas is constantly talking about death to all Israelis and there is simply no easy way around that. From this school perspective, any reaction to the initial reports will have to wait as reports are already coming in that Hamas had rigged the school to blow anyway.

Hate to say it but you can only believe 30-50% of the news reports out of that region.


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