Gaza: No end in sight.

[WDRacing]

War is hell.

Congrats ok 7K homie!!!

[hannibal]

Classic!

I read a report about Arab nations considering stopping oil and fuel exports to Israel in an attempt to slow their offensive into Gaza. They decided they couldnt stop the exports, as oil prices are already low and lower production (or sales) would drive the prices even lower.

I understand those countries are not as wealthy as the US, but if you cant give up revenue to save lives of your 'brother' Arabs, your mind is in the wrong place.

[Cold_Zero]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0...54738

Die in Nazi ovens? People are crazy..

[AZhitman]

Israeli Government said it sent 80 aid trucks into the Southern Pass of Gaza to send relief. But Hamas is unwilling to distribute the aid.

you stay classy israel.

Yes, by all means, let's expect one faction to be "above the fray" while the other behaves like animals.

I recall this being a bit of a concern in this country, minority youths being excused for behaving inappropriately, while the people charged with keeping the peace in the neighborhood are lambasted for losing their temper on occasion.

Gotta love the reverse-racism (or classism, or whatever it is) double-standard.

[Cold_Zero]

I didnt not cite my source, the other day.Here it is. I am sure the BBC is a right wing Media Machine..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7815410.stm

[audtatious]

BBC actually leans more the other way....The demonstrations we have been having in our own cities against Israel is very concerning.

[Cold_Zero]

There is talk that this all got started because the improvement in range of the Qassam Rockets. That some rockets may be able to hit nuclear facilities in Israel.

[audtatious]

If they were not randomly firing rockets into Israel it would have not been an issue in the first place. Based on what I see on TV right now it seems Hezbolla wants to throw their hat into the war now. Only time will tell. I do find it interesting that Egypt is being chewed on for trying to work out peace with Israel and now they are throwing Obamas name around as he has not helped "his people".

[480sx]

I have a real hard time feeling bad for Palestine in this situation. They elected a 'political party' that was known for its violent anti-Semitic ways. So in a way they sealed their own fate and made this war much easier to facilitate and support for Israel.

I heard an interesting thing on NPR just now. The United States actually pushed the Palestinian government for that ill fated election in 2006. Israel and Palestinian officials both expressed their concerns but we basically said 'Hamas wont win, dont worry about it'. 44.5% of the population voted for Hamas.

41% voted for Fatah, which was a much more 'positive' party for the Palestinian people it seems(from a quick Wiki). The parties name basically means 'Opening' or 'Victory'. The word Fatah was first used during the Islamic expansion during its infancy and conjures feelings of pride and positivity for its people. However, this was the political party that gained the majority of its strength and status after the six day war. This is the party who in 1959 in its underground state wrote in its publication these words that kinda sums up a lot of the 'Beef' that Palestine has with Israel.

The youth of the catastrophe (shibab al-nakba) are dispersed... Life in the tent has become as miserable as death... [T]o die for our beloved Fatherland is better and more honorable than life, which forces us to eat our daily bread under humiliations or to receive it as charity at the cost of our honour... We, the sons of the catastrophe, are no longer willing to live this dirty, despicable life, this life which has destroyed our cultural, moral and political existence and destroyed our human dignity.

Here is another instance that supports the idea that the US needs to back down as the major player in international politics and instead push for more unilateral political responses. Or at least stick some people in power who understand what the hell is going on in the middle east, because its pretty apparent that over the last decade we have lost touch.

This thread is a perfect example, most of us have learned more than a bit about this situation between Israel and Palestine. The whole conflict is very murky for most Americans, and i would imagine its the same for a large portion of the globe.

Has anyone heard that the Israeli government has started a daily 3 hour cease fire in which they allow the UN and other countries to ship in aid to civilians? I thought this was bad freaken *** and really shows some sound decision making by the Israeli government.
Modified by 480sx at 8:52 PM 1/7/2009

[AZhitman]

^ Summing it up, and laying it down.

BTW, I don't think the missles reaching nuke facilities in Israel is an issue (except for the doofus triggering the launcher).

If I recall correctly, Israel uses more of the US's NRC codes and guidelines for construction, which means Hamas better go find some bigger boomsticks.

[audtatious]

I found this interesting:

Executive Summary: Palestinian Violations of International Law in Gaza Compared with Israel’s Exemplary Conduct

* The rule of distinction requires combatants to aim all their attacks at legitimate targets. Attacks deliberately aimed at civilians are war crimes. A corollary of the rule of distinction is a ban on the use of weapons that are incapable of being properly aimed. The rockets used by the Palestinian attackers cannot be aimed at specific targets and are launched at urban areas. This means that the very use of these weapons violates international law.

* Each one of the 6,000 rocket and mortar attacks by Palestinian terrorists on civilian targets in Israeli towns is a war crime. Both the terror squads carrying out the attacks, as well as their commanders, bear criminal responsibility. Under the rules of command responsibility, senior Hamas leaders such as Khaled Mashal, who ordered a continuation of the rocket attacks, are among the parties guilty of war crimes.

* A consortium of Palestinian terrorlst groups have held Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit incommunicado and out of reach of the International Committee of the Red Cross since 2006. This is a clear violation of international law concerning prisoners of war.

* The Palestinian attacks must be seen as terrorlst attacks under the International Convention for the Suppression of terrorlst Bombings, which makes it a crime to bomb public places (such as city streets) with the intent to kill civilians. Under this Convention, the Palestinian attackers are considered international terrorists and Israel is required to assume criminal jurisdiction over them.

* UN Security Council Resolution 1566 requires states to deny safe haven to “any person who supports, facilitates, participates or attempts to participate in the financing, planning, preparation or commission of terrorlst acts or provides safe havens.” Thus, all Palestinian governing authorities in Gaza, whether directly involved in terror attacks or not, are terrorists under international law, by virtue of their willing provision of safe haven for terrorists.

* In carrying out their attacks on Israeli Jews as part of a larger aim to kill Jews, as demonstrated by the Hamas Covenant, many of the Palestinian terrorists are also violating the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

[hannibal]

^ Israel's exemplary conduct?!? Thats a little over the top. Point well taken though. But if its a war crime to fire an projectile incapable of being aimed, is it also a war crime to misfire an aimable projectile? Oops, we missed is not a defense IMO. Is throwing rocks a war crime too?

Again for comparison, the US has 'harbored' terrorists too. But that resolution is dated 2004 and I guess we gave that up a while ago...

I have a real hard time feeling bad for Palestine in this situation. They elected a 'political party' that was known for its violent anti-Semitic ways. So in a way they sealed their own fate and made this war much easier to facilitate and support for Israel.

Good post, but i dont think this quote is fair. Yes, Hamas has a history of violence, but they have done some outstanding things for Palestinians. Theyve built hospitals and expanded the educational system is Gaza and West Bank. I could be wrong about this, but the people may have elected Hamas leaders during a cease fire. With that said, they had to see the large chance of Hamas breaking the cease fire agreement.

Compare this to the US invasion of Iraq and Afganistan. We elected Bush and he led us into these current wars. Yet you should still feel bad for our soldiers and their families. Perhaps Americans in general have suffered somewhat because of our leaders' actions. This is different from the election of Hamas leaders as their agenda was more widely recognized.
Modified by hannibal at 12:30 AM 1/8/2009

[Cold_Zero]

BTW, I don't think the missles reaching nuke facilities in Israel is an issue (except for the doofus triggering the launcher).

If I recall correctly, Israel uses more of the US's NRC codes and guidelines for construction, which means Hamas better go find some bigger boomsticks.

The way it was explained to me, it is not so much of an issue with rockets triggering a secondary nuclear or dirty non nuclear explosion. The issue lies around hitting support buildings and water facilities around nuclear reactors or facilities and causing problems. To be honest, I have not been able to validate this claim.

[AZhitman]

The way it was explained to me, it is not so much of an issue with rockets triggering a secondary nuclear or dirty non nuclear explosion. The issue lies around hitting support buildings and water facilities around nuclear reactors or facilities and causing problems. To be honest, I have not been able to validate this claim.

Correct - I'm certain they can interrupt operations, but I'm betting they're thinking radioactive fallout, which ain't gonna happen.

Interesting how people come out and hammer the US because of the supposed "international community's" condemnation of our actions in Iraq, yet when the international community criticizes the actions of Palestine's "hired thugs", it's all just a misunderstanding.

[heliochrome85]

I came across this earlierhttp://www.nytimes.com/2009/01...ml?em

January 8, 2009Op-Ed ColumnistThe Gaza BoomerangBy NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

At a time when Israel is bombing Gaza to try to smash Hamas, it’s worth remembering that Israel itself helped nurture Hamas.

When Hamas was founded in 1987, Israel was mostly concerned with Yasser Arafat’s Fatah movement and figured that a religious Palestinian organization would help undermine Fatah. Israel calculated that all those Muslim fundamentalists would spend their time praying in the mosques, so it cracked down on Fatah and allowed Hamas to rise as a counterforce.

What we’re seeing in the Middle East is the Boomerang Syndrome. Arab terrorism built support for right-wing Israeli politicians, who took harsh actions against Palestinians, who responded with more terrorism, and so on. Extremists on each side sustain the other, and the excessive Israeli ground assault in Gaza is likely to create more terrorists in the long run.

If this pattern continues, we may eventually see Hamas-style Palestinians facing off against hard-line Israelis, with each side making the others’ lives wretched — and political moderates in the Middle East politically eviscerated.

I visited Gaza last summer and found many Palestinians ambivalent in a way that Americans and Israelis often don’t appreciate. Many Gazans scorn Fatah as corrupt and incompetent, and they dislike Hamas’s overzealousness and repression. But when they are suffering and humiliated, they find it emotionally satisfying to see Hamas fighting back.

Granted, Israel was profoundly provoked in this case. Israel sought an extension of its cease-fire with Hamas, and Egypt offered to mediate one — but Hamas refused. When it is shelled by its neighbor, Israel has to do something.

But Israel’s right to do something doesn’t mean it has the right to do anything. Since the shelling from Gaza started in 2001, 20 Israeli civilians have been killed by rockets or mortars, according to a tabulation by Israeli human rights groups. That doesn’t justify an all-out ground invasion that has killed more than 660 people (it’s difficult to know how many are militants and how many are civilians).

So what could Israel have reasonably done? Bombing the tunnels through which Gazans smuggle weapons would have been a proportionate response, if Israel had stopped there, and the same is true of airstrikes on certain Hamas targets. An even better approach would have been to ease the siege in Gaza, perhaps creating an environment in which Hamas would have extended the cease-fire. It was certainly worth trying — and almost anything would be better than lashing out in a way that would create more boomerangs.

“This policy is not strengthening Israel,” notes Sari Bashi, the executive director of Gisha, an Israeli human rights group that works on Gaza issues. “The trauma that 1.5 million people have been undergoing in Gaza is going to have long-term effects for our ability to live together.

“My colleague in Gaza works for an Israeli organization. She’s learning Hebrew, and she’s just the kind of person we can build a future with. And her 6-year-old nephew, every time a bomb drops from the air, is at first scared and then says — hopefully — maybe the Qassam Brigades will now fire rockets at the Israelis.”

Israel’s strategy has been to make ordinary Palestinians suffer in hopes of creating ill will toward Hamas. That’s why, beginning in 2007, Israel cut back fuel shipments for Gaza utilities — and why today, in the aftermath of the bombings, 800,000 Gaza residents lack running water, Ms. Bashi said.

“The Israeli policy on Gaza has been marketed as a policy against Hamas, but in reality it’s a policy against a million-and-a-half people in Gaza,” she said.

We all know that the most plausible solution to the Middle East mess is a two-state solution along the lines that former President Bill Clinton has proposed. It’s difficult to tell how we get there from here, but a crucial step is to strengthen President Mahmoud Abbas and his Palestinian Authority.

Instead, initial reports are that the assault on Gaza is focusing Arab anger on Mr. Abbas and moderate neighbors like Jordan, undermining the peacemakers.

My courageous Times colleague in Gaza, Taghreed el-Khodary, quoted a 37-year-old father weeping over the corpse of his 11-year-old daughter: “From now on, I am Hamas. I choose resistance.”

Barack Obama has said relatively little about Gaza. At first, given the provocations by Hamas, that was understandable. But as the ground invasion costs more lives, he needs to join European leaders in calling for a new cease-fire on all sides — and after he assumes the presidency, he must provide real leadership that the world craves.

Aaron David Miller, a longtime Middle East peace negotiator for the United States, suggests in his excellent new book, “The Much Too Promised Land,” that presidents should offer Israel “love, but tough love.”

So, Mr. Obama, find your voice. Fall in tough love with Israel.

i have to agree with this assesment. its a cycle, that the west has kept spinning. keep alienating moderates, and watch the whole world degenerate into fear. tahts the thing that bush never understood when he was planning the war on terror.

[Eikon]

i have to agree with this assesment. its a cycle, that the west has kept spinning. keep alienating moderates, and watch the whole world degenerate into fear. tahts the thing that bush never understood when he was planning the war on terror.

As long as we don't place any blame or responsibility on the people who actually are committing the terrorism...

[heliochrome85]

dont get me wrong, im all for holding the feet to the fire. im disgusted with their tactics, but the israelis have painted the palestinians in a corner, and then wonder why they fight back.

[Eikon]

You are right about the backfire of the idea of supporting one group in a war in which you shouldn't be hands on.. then having it backfire when that very same group leads the war against you later in the future.

We've seen it a few times in the part of the world...

Taliban (US supported against Russia, then left them high and dry, and are now fighting them in Afghan)Saddam Hussein's regime ( US supported when they were fighting against Iran, then we had the Desert Storm war against them). Hamas (US supported when Fatah was in power as the lessor of two evils, but now they are the greater of those evils and Israel is fighting them).

[Cold_Zero]

Eikon,Correction the US supported the Mujahideen during the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan. The Mujahideen was a very complex disorganized-decentralized group of warlords of different ethnic groups inside Afghanistan. The blowback (so to speak, since there was not a real great blowback) happened after the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan and the CIA and the US tried to assert its sphere of influence in the country. That assertion failed and for the most part we took a backseat to the anarchy.

The Taliban was a student lead movement started in the Madrasahs in Pakistan, after the Soviet withdraw of forces, the subsequent power vacuum and anarchy that ensued. While the US may have support elements of the Mujahideen during the Soviet led invasion that may have joined the Taliban movement later, it is an inaccurate statement to link the Taliban with the Mujahideen. Since not all of the Mujahideen groups joined the Taliban.

Remember, it was the Northern Alliance that was fighting the Taliban for control of the country well before 9-11 and it was this group that the US supported during the US led Invasion of Afghanistan. We had been feeding intel, money and support to the Northern Alliance well before 9-11 and they gladly accepted. It should be noted that Al Qaeda executed Massoud (General of the Northern Alliance) prior to the 9-11 attacks as compensation for the Taliban’s assistance with training facilities and material support.

Also, the US may have supported the Iraqi government during the Iran-Iraq War, and it should be noted that it is suspected that Saddam Hussein had once been on CIA payroll. The fact is that the United States played both sides against each other during the Iran-Iraq war. The US was all to happy to give Saddam support for the exchange of data on the Chemical and Biological attacks on the Kurds and Sunnis, so that it could be studied to develop better weapons in the US arsenal. But it was the Russians that mainly equipped the Iraqi military.

The US also sold weapons to the Iranians and the most famous case was the Iran Contra deal. Where Hawk SAM missiles were transferred to Israel, Israel loaded them on IAF transports and flew them to Iran. Now as a side note please tell me this, if Iran hates Israel and calls for its destruction, why was it taking weapons from the Israelis? I guess Iran had a bigger enemy, that of the 5th largest Army in the world (Iraq’s) marching toward their border. What is even further ironic is that of the US hatred of the Iran due to the Islamic Revolution and the ensuing hostage crisis. Yet we later work with and trade arms with the Iranians to get hostages back from Lebanon.

Anyway, the American policy had always been keeping the Iraqis and the Iranians at odds with each other. The fear was that if one country took the other over, the Saudi Kingdom and all the other Kingdoms in the region could/would fall as well. The Iranians and the Iraqis knew this. They probably played us out as well, so there was no real great love loss when we turned on Saddam after he invaded Kuwait.

What should be noted from this whole discourse is that I maintain that Al Qaeda hates the US not because we have troops on the Holy Land (Saudi Arabia) or that we support Israel, but because Osama was butt hurt when the Prince of Saudi Arabia turned down his suggestion for a Mujahideen to defend the Kingdom and liberate Kuwait. The Prince was right in going with Western Support which offered a huge Coalition Force, the promise of weapons sales down the road and no great fear that the Kingdom or Kuwait would be overthrown by Al Qaeda after the Iraqis were kicked out of Kuwait. It should also be noted that Osama always touted Arab Fighters as being the idealistic Mujahideen fighter (think of the SS Arian Storm Trooper mentality), but history showed us in Afghanistan that when they fought, they were typically the most ineffective fighters. What didn’t help was the subsequent denunciation of the Royal Family by Osama and the assassination attempts that the Royal Family placed on Osama to take him out.

[Eikon]

Good info Bud!

[BusyBadger]

(Sigh ... I just love it - NOT - when people think and speak without doing their homework!)

I'll give you just one quote to think about and then ask you all to do some homework instead of spouting without thinking:

Z

I am so tired of reading the "Arab Contributions" across the web that it makes my head hurt. I’m reminded of James Caan’s perpetual presence at the Playboy Mansion due to his role in The Godfather. Even then the best acting he did in the movie was pretending to enjoy nailing the bridesmaid up against the bedroom door. Jimmy, its been 30+ years, make a new movie to rest your laurels on. Or in the immortal words of Janet Jackson, “What have you done for me lately?”

Contributions by Arabs from various and wide ranging areas such as: mathematics, physics, handwriting, medicine, poetry should not go unacknowledged, nor should their age – they are all from ONE THOUSAND YEARS AGO. For the sake of brevity I'll be limiting my topic today to mathematics & algebra. I can address other topics in future posts if you like.

Algebra is great (and much to my disbelief as a teenager) I use it a frequently in my adult life, but many of its concepts comes from the Indus valley and is Hindu in origin, including many major concepts no the least of which is the use of zero as a place-keeper. The Babylonian contributions to algebra from 1600-1900 BCE are indisputable and certainly predate the Indian concepts from 600 BCE, but those should be noted as Persian, not Arab. In any case, contributions from Arab/Persian sources became fewer and fewer and by the 13th century the focus shifted towards Europe as the source of new concepts; Bombelli, Cardano, Fibonacci & Tartaglia (Italy – sounds like a law firm!), Leibniz (Germany), Galois & Viete (France), Cramer (Switzerland), Abel (Norway). Check the results from a modern competition like the Nobel Prize competition. Ouch! I’d like to thank the Dutch for my morning coffee, as it was they who smuggled some unroasted beans out of Yemen in the early 1600’s in defiance of the Arab prohibition of exportation. They made this post possible.

Don't worry about grading my homework, I'm just here for the knowledge.

[Cold_Zero]

The Western World needs to give the Eastern Cultures (Chinese, Indian and Middle Eastern) a very big thank you. It is very easy, coming from culture (founded on Roman and Greek cultures) to play down or even diminish the contributions of other cultures to your own. The simple fact is that the Etruscans (Romans) borrowed heavily from the Greeks (as well as other cultures later in the Empire) and the Greeks from other cultures. Not that the Greek and Romans didnt have contributions that they gave the Western World, but they mainly improved and built on other cultures inventions and ideas. Personally, I think that with out influence of China, the western world would still be in the Dark Ages.

[Watermelonwarrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4Thought this was interesting

[Cold_Zero]

So wait, Hammas allegedly builds a tunnel into Israel to kidnap Israeli Soldiers, Israel allegedly sends in Commandos and allegedly kills 6 people. And in this case Israel breaks the cease fire? Who were the hostile forces in this case, as the international news reported?

[szh]

I am so tired of reading the "Arab Contributions" across the web that it makes my head hurt. I’m reminded of James Caan’s perpetual presence at the Playboy Mansion due to his role in The Godfather. Even then the best acting he did in the movie was pretending to enjoy nailing the bridesmaid up against the bedroom door. Jimmy, its been 30+ years, make a new movie to rest your laurels on. Or in the immortal words of Janet Jackson, “What have you done for me lately?”

Contributions by Arabs from various and wide ranging areas such as: mathematics, physics, handwriting, medicine, poetry should not go unacknowledged, nor should their age – they are all from ONE THOUSAND YEARS AGO. For the sake of brevity I'll be limiting my topic today to mathematics & algebra. I can address other topics in future posts if you like.

Oh, yea children of such short memories!

So what if it was a thousand years ago? It was still valid and vitally important contributions ... all at a time when the rest of the "western" world was in the Dark Ages and overrun by barbarians or not yet "modern". Much of the earlier Roman and Greek writing was saved in large Arab libraries, so that they could be used again ... the works of Archimedes and Aristotle and Plato and Socrates (among others) would have been forgotten if not for these efforts!

History and civilization are like pendulums ... swings over time. Read Toynbee "Rise and Fall of Civilizations" (or some such name) for more information.

Z

[S13_love]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...nians

Israelis are angry.

[Watermelonwarrior]

"The U.N. estimates two-thirds of Gaza's 1.4 million people now lack electricity, and half don't have running water."

Thats going to cause a lot of problems here in a week or two. Any food people did have is going to go bad and without water things are going to get tough

[telcoman]

"The U.N. estimates two-thirds of Gaza's 1.4 million people now lack electricity, and half don't have running water."

Thats going to cause a lot of problems here in a week or two. Any food people did have is going to go bad and without water things are going to get tough

Tough s#it in my opinion!

I don't know how many of those 1.4 million voted to elect a group that is intent on destroying and killing an entire nation that is a member of the United Nations that gave them territory in return for peace, but when you start firing rockets that cannot be aimed into civilian area's what would one expect?

Israel has every right under the rules of war to destroy every last building standing in Gaza when their civilians are being attacked by Hamas hiding in schools mosques and using civilians for shields.

I do feel sorry for the children but most of them have stupid parents that voted for Hamas and as such they may lose their life for that stupidity?

Someone mentioned Germany in an earlier post and one only has to look at photo's of Dresden, Berlin and some other German cities in WWll.

The German people elected a madman & thought he was going to solve all their problems and millions including childten lost their lives then. Japan also learned a similar lesson.

Many American people are suffering the consequences today of electing an incompetent leader over the past eight years.

People have to be careful who they vote for because in some instances that vote can possibly result in loss of life.

In my opinion, Al Qaeda will eventually be totally destroyed and so will all the Palestinan terrorists.

Telcoman

[S13_love]

In my opinion, Al Qaeda will eventually be totally destroyed and so will all the Palestinan terrorists.

I don't doubt this either...considering that pretty much it's them vs. everyone else on this planet.

[Cold_Zero]

Someone mentioned Germany in an earlier post and one only has to look at photo's of Dresden, Berlin and some other German cities in WWll.

The German people elected a madman & thought he was going to solve all their problems and millions including childten lost their lives then. Japan also learned a similar lesson.

Howie, It was I that mentioned Germany. And only to make the point that you can't judge the actions of one person or group or government on a people as a whole. In the broader context of all Arabs being terrorlst.

It should be pointed out that the fire bombing of Dresden was retaliation for the bombing of civilian targets in London. Which was an unfortunate incident that changed the context of the air war over Europe during WWII, because the Germans did not intend to target civilian targets at first. The razing of Berlin by the Russians was retaliation for what the Germans did to Stalingrad and Leningrad. These cases are different when compared to Gaza/Israel since the issue typically revolves around groups breaking a cease fire to provoke the political and military situation in the region.

Quote »Many American people are suffering the consequences today of electing an incompetent leader over the past eight years.[/quote]Well we will see how well Barry does on the job. Just don't go setting the bar too low for him.. I want to see how he out performs GW, with out a bunch of people making excuses for him.