Gaza: No end in sight.

[Bubba1]

Howie, It was I that mentioned Germany. And only to make the point that you can't judge the actions of one person or group or government on a people as a whole. In the broader context of all Arabs being terrorlst.

It should be pointed out that the fire bombing of Dresden was retaliation for the bombing of civilian targets in London. Which was an unfortunate incident that changed the context of the air war over Europe during WWII, because the Germans did not intend to target civilian targets at first. The razing of Berlin by the Russians was retaliation for what the Germans did to Stalingrad and Leningrad. These cases are different when compared to Gaza/Israel since the issue typically revolves around groups breaking a cease fire to provoke the political and military situation in the region.

Well we will see how well Barry does on the job. Just don't go setting the bar too low for him.. I want to see how he out performs GW, with out a bunch of people making excuses for him.

That's right, it's wait and see if 'Bama outperforms GWB. it should be interesting to see what he does, but you gotta admit, GWB set the bar pretty low...

[telcoman]

Howie, It was I that mentioned Germany. And only to make the point that you can't judge the actions of one person or group or government on a people as a whole. In the broader context of all Arabs being terrorlst.

It should be pointed out that the fire bombing of Dresden was retaliation for the bombing of civilian targets in London. Which was an unfortunate incident that changed the context of the air war over Europe during WWII, because the Germans did not intend to target civilian targets at first. The razing of Berlin by the Russians was retaliation for what the Germans did to Stalingrad and Leningrad. These cases are different when compared to Gaza/Israel since the issue typically revolves around groups breaking a cease fire to provoke the political and military situation in the region.

Well we will see how well Barry does on the job. Just don't go setting the bar too low for him.. I want to see how he out performs GW, with out a bunch of people making excuses for him.

Bud Thanks for refreshing my memory.

I was trying to make the point that there have been no recent contributions to mankind by people fighting over religion in the middle east by any other people except Israel.

You brought up Germany. Germany has a long history of contributions to society in spite of their dismal record during WWll.

Our entire space program began with German scientists after WWll. Mercedes for a time had one of the best vehicles made in the world.

You are obviously better well versed in history than I & I'll give you that.

This mess in the middle east in what Jon Stewart calls "Mess O Potamia" is going to eventually end badly for the Palestinans with most of them dead if they cannot agree to live in peace alongside Israel. I do feel sorry for the children many whose parents are just teaching them hate.

If any group of people lobbed rockets over our borders killing civilians our response would be the same as Israels.

Again, just my opinion.

Telcoman

[BusyBadger]

I was going to drop you an email about what your post to keep this from getting cluttered and going widely OT (with some necessary but prohibited religious content).

And Toynbee has too much religious content and not enough substance in his work. I prefer Oswald Spengler's "Decline of the West".


Modified by BusyBadger at 12:40 AM 1/12/2009

[Cold_Zero]

Why don't you make a new topic about this subject in this forum? I think that you can use your sources, even though they may contain religious content. The prohibition on religious topics does not necessarily exclude usage of religious sources or references were it is germane to the subject matter. There are times when discussion about politics, history and culture will cross the line of religion and can be discussed in a civil manner. What we will not discuss are purely or full blown religious topics, like debating the merits of trans-substantiation, con-substantiation and real-presence. Stuff like that would be off limits, since it holds no real value in political discussion.

[heliochrome85]

I came across this on the Atlantic Monthly's website...http://jeffreygoldberg.theatla...l.php

What is the Goal of the Israel Incursion?

11 Jan 2009 01:08 pmThis is the question, and I'm sorry if I've missed something, but have we received a clear answer from the Israeli government? If the goal is to destroy the Hamas government in Gaza, well, this is not something so easily destroyed. I thought Israel learned a lesson from the 1982 Lebanon invasion: You can't inflict political change on your enemies by force. You can defeat your enemies, yes, you can blow up their rocket launchers and destroy their smuggling tunnels, but you can't make them into something they're not. Israeli Military Intelligence seems to understand this better than Prime Minister Olmert, according to Ha'aretz...

[Eikon]

I don't know if I agree with that statement... I guess I agree with it in theory... you can't physically force a person to change their opinion. But I'm not sure that can't be overcome.

We created political change in Iraq by force. (I'm not saying it was a wise move.. but we did do it.. temporarily at least).

Perhaps the Palestinian people will realize that their choice to put Hamas in power wasn't a good decision. Clearly their leadership has lead to conflict and harm to the people. Perhaps they will ask what benefit was it to them to make terrorlst attacks on their neighbor.

As for Israel's reason for this conflict...My thinking is that the Israeli military is trying to stop Hamas from firing rockets into Israel at civilian targets. This is why they are hitting the smuggling tunnels and leadership personnel. I'm sure they hope to see political change in the future, but I don't believe they are trying to directly impact that end.

[all4sho]

has it really ever ended!

[Cold_Zero]

It would appear that foreign food aid and other aid is reaching Gaza. I hope that both sides give the truces a chance for aid to be distributed.http://www.iocc.org/news/1-09-09gaza.aspx

[telcoman]

I came across this on the Atlantic Monthly's website...http://jeffreygoldberg.theatla...l.php

What is the Goal of the Israel Incursion?

To stop the firing of rockets into the nation of Israel.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Edited by moderator. The speach that was quoted here contained content that was entirely of a religious nature. It was opinionated and inflammatory. It was in direct violation of the rules of the Political Forum here on NICO. Telco, let this serve as a warning. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since it is the intent of Hamas to destroy Israel the above speech seems to make sense to me.

The fighting will end when Hamas agrees to leave Israel alone or when they are all dead whichever comes first. If Israel has to destroy every building in Gaza to achieve its goal and kill every Hamas member then so be it.I feel sorry for those caught in the middle.

Telcoman

[heliochrome85]

honestly, in all the things ive read on the internet, this has to be the biggest load ive ever read. it borders on being actually offensive. it saddens me that you think so low of my religion and my people. there really isnt much else i can say in the face of such open faced ignorance.

i used to hold your opinion in some regard. i no longer do. i guess my time here hasn't done any good, and maybe its time for me to exit stage left.

[themadscientist]

Unless you have actually read a quoran can you be certain that analisys is correct? I am sure a Jew or Christian would not choose to have a Muslim explain thier religion.

I feel bad for the gazans but they elected Hamas, they will have to bear the consequenses of that parties actions. I do not envy Israel's position, they need to protect themselves but to do so in this situation without innocents being hurt seems implausable.

I am glad I don't have to decide such things, it looks like a no win situation for the israeli and palestinian people who just want to live their lives. Another case of 1% screwing it up for the other 99%.

[telcoman]

honestly, in all the things ive read on the internet, this has to be the biggest load ive ever read. it borders on being actually offensive. it saddens me that you think so low of my religion and my people. there really isnt much else i can say in the face of such open faced ignorance.

i used to hold your opinion in some regard. i no longer do. i guess my time here hasn't done any good, and maybe its time for me to exit stage left.

Tariq

I'm sorry my previous post offended you and I am not in any way trying to offend your religion.

Unfortunately religion does enter the debate over Gaza because Hamas is a follower of a religion advocating the destruction of a nation and another religion.

The United States has people of many religions separate from our democratic form of government. If any religious group in the US began to call for the destruction and killing of another group or religion what do you think the result would be?

I don't have a problem with Muslims. I do have a problem with any group that preaches hate under the guise of religion and attempts to force their beliefs upon others.

As long as Hamas refuses to stop calling for the destruction of the nation of Israel they need to be wiped off the face of this earth. Same for members of Al Quada.

Personally I am sickened every time I drive into New York City looking for the missing twin towers. Although those sick bastards are dead they still killed three thousand innocent Americans. And those that hijacked those planes were of what religion calling for the destruction of the United States?

Other peaceful Muslims are certainly welcome to practice their religion here in the US as long as they don't subscribe to the jihad bulls#it.

I'm sorry you are in a tough spot on this issue.Again no disrespect to you personally.

Telcoman

[480sx]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------edited by moderator. 480sx, you posted this as I was in the process of cleaning up the thread, so no slap on the hand for you. But I still cleaned up this post because it was in direct response to the prior Telco post and was entirely religious content. The "R" topic is off-limits on NICO. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I feel bad for the gazans but they elected Hamas, they will have to bear the consequenses of that parties actions. I do not envy Israel's position, they need to protect themselves but to do so in this situation without innocents being hurt seems implausable.

55 percent of the country did not vote for Hamas. This must be kept into perspective.

[Eikon]

Tariq

I'm sorry my previous post offended you and I am not in any way trying to offend your religion.

Unfortunately religion does enter the debate over Gaza because Hamas is a follower of a religion advocating the destruction of a nation and another religion.

Again no disrespect to you personally.

Telcoman

Telco, I appreciate that did not intend to offend Tariq or any of the countless other people who may have read your post.

While religion certainly plays a large role in the overall conversation about this topic in a debate class or in the media or in your face to face conversations, it will not have a large role here on NICO's political forum. There is a difference between mentioning religion in a broad and non-descript way and what you did.. which was to direct attack the core of the belief system of that religion.

Religion is a topic that cuts much deeper than any other. Politics can lead to great disagreement, but religion can lead to great offense. Simply stating ones personal beliefs can offend countless others. For this reason we avoid the topic of religion across NICO entirely.

Tariq, I truly hope you don't avoid this section of our forum for good. You are clearly a great asset to the political forum... someone who we all have great respect for! Please do come back and continue conversing with us in hopes that we'll all become more enlightened individuals.

[480sx]

I had a good post that i wish had stayed up long enough for at least Bob(helio too, we are not all ignorant A$$holes) to read. Spent a good bit of time on that, pretty rough on me lol gdamn, mine wasnt even religiously charged(although it carried a lot of propaganda quotes..). Its understandable anyway, no hard feelings towards any admins.

Still rough that Bob dodged that. He deserved to get his *** handed to him for that one.
Modified by 480sx at 7:24 PM 1/12/2009

[Cold_Zero]

Getting back on topic. The incoming Obama Administration has already stated taht it will not change the stance that the Bush Administration has hand in dealing with Hamas. They are going to continue on with the same stance. They will though change the stance on Iran and Syria and meet with them without any preconditions. This could be good when dealing with Hamas and Hezbollah, in this region.

[Cold_Zero]

Has anyone given it any thought that the reason why there is no end to the situation in Gaza is because of the International Media and the Cable News Networks?

CNN is off on some tangent about Israel using a 'suspicious' chemical in Gaza that burns and will not be extinguished with water. ZOMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!

Let's see the Israelis use M109's, which can use WP munitions. Wow.. took me all of three seconds to figure that one out. They will talk about this for another 2 hours.

[Eikon]

Fighting in the middle east is a good news story. The media will continue to fan these flames and get as much out of this story as possible.

[AZhitman]

CNN is off on some tangent about Israel using a 'suspicious' chemical in Gaza that burns and will not be extinguished with water. ZOMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!

Morons.

Phosphorous, perhaps? Duh.

And why does it MATTER what's in the bombs?

Are they forgetting that the PURPOSE of military weaponry is to KILL people and BREAK things?

Freaking stand back, let 'em hash it out, and knock off the oversensationalism... CNN can bite me.

[szh]

Tariq

I'm sorry my previous post offended you and I am not in any way trying to offend your religion.

Telcoman

Sorry, as far as I am concerned, your apology is NOT accepted. In Tariq's shoes, I would not accept it either.

Your post was ignorant, inaccurate and unbelievably insulting. Your generalizations in this "apology" are equally specious - couched in the far too convenient "use 911 as a hammer" excuse to justify your words and beliefs and intolerance. I find it continually aggravating that you do not show the maturity to be willing to learn and understand before spouting complete BS (and conveniently quoting "others" to disavow yourself from the words).

I will, however, take the moral high ground and not address the items from the post that was removed (not by me, btw) because it is not worth the time. And, because I certainly am not interested in jumping into the gutter with you. And because it would also demonstrate the point that tends to get ignored (in Mid-East politics): who did what to whom first? Each side in the Mid-East problem believes that they are reacting to the offenses of the other.

BTW, note that Tariq, I, and the other muslims on this forum have NEVER shown any other religion, or their followers, the kind of insulting intolerance and disrespect that you have so trivially and easily demonstrated.

We allow more freedom in the Politics forum because of the sensitive nature of the topic. Regardless, your post was unacceptable. You are not a new member here and are completely aware of the rules. Normally, I am a very tolerant person, but from now on, I have ZERO TOLERANCE for you and your posts - I will edit/delete/modify any new ones where you ignore rules, and in the extreme case, I will make it a point of removing you from NICO.

Grow up and post maturely from now on. Or leave and find an appropriate hate site to find kindred souls.

Z

[themadscientist]

-55 percent of the country did not vote for Hamas. This must be kept into perspective.

I didn't vote for Obama either but I still must similarly suffer for his mistakes, no free pass.

[heliochrome85]

i stayed away from this section for a while because of the level at which the conversation had decended. Im glad Z has a bit more standing here than I do otherwise, who knows.