For all of you gun nuts...

[creophus]

oh and Creophus your car argument is retarded heres why:

Cars are "fired" in much greater numbers everday compared to guns. Cars are meant to be safe, and the vast majority of the time people die because of accidents. You yourself call them accidents, meaning not on purpose. You don't accidently aim a gun at someone, then accidently pull the trigger, and accidently kill them. You do it on purpose, you mean to kill them.

The care argument is invalid, your welcome

Guns are meant to be safe. The whole point of this conversation is that through the legal use of guns, we as citizens can be safer. The argument is completely valid because it is the people, not the car/gun or whatever that is the problem. You cannot eleminate guns, just like you can't take away people's car.

And as far as accidents go, that's what the whole push for smart guns is about. Keeping guns from accidentally going off. Do you realize that there are many people who opposed cars and even the railroad because they said it was so unsafe?

I hear what you anti-gun guns are saying. And many of you will object to my use of the term anti-gun, but that's not my point. I used to be against handguns especially in light of shootings at school. Then I learned more about guns, what they can and cant' do. Met people who have guns, and my eyes were opened to the truth. Guns CAN BE deadly. I'm not arguing that they aren't. It's important to handle them with respect. That's where the focus should be--on educating people, not making useless laws.

[StrangeLove]

WHAT THE **** IS WRONG WITH YOU!

" Guns are meant to be safe."

if they were meant to be safe then they wouldn't ****ing shoot things out that of them that are designed to kill people! if they were safe than they would shoot out hugs and ****. Sorry, but you are ****ing retarded.

The point I'm trying to get across is:

Guns were invented to aid in killing people? Why do criminals use a gun to rob people? Because they can kill you with the pull of a trigger? Why do you use a gun to "defend" yourself? Because you can kill them with the pull of a trigger! Its a cycle of killing! I'm anti-killing of everything. ****, I don't even kill insects.

[ilovedrifting]

if you don't like guns, don't buy them.the government should never be able to say what you can and can't do in you personal life

[gabossie]

Wrong, as as much as you might think so, this country was not based on the idea that gov can't tell you what to do in your personal life. It was based on some inalienable rights which the government shall not impede UNTIL you impede on the rights of others which share the same rights. Fire a gun all you want, but as soon as that bullet hits someone else or their property, you have stepped beyond your rights and deserve to be prosecuted. The only time which this becomes ok is when someone has already violated your rights and you are defending your person, property, and own civil liberties.

Again, I respectfully request that you participate only if you have something intelligent to contribute.

[The Mic]

Don't sweat it guys. Even in the light of new information (to some), we still will not "waffle." We're loyal and have honor and integrity. We will remain consistent!

btw, ilovedrifting is a textbook example of why being 18 yrs of age is a prerequisite to vote

[vicki]

if you don't like guns, don't buy them.the government should never be able to say what you can and can't do in you personal life

HAHAHA. Have you ever heard of laws?

[prigo]

Of course this post will be overlooked, and the people who do read it will just dismiss my points as nonsense

^ at least you know that.

[gabossie]

^ at least you know that.

Ohhhhhh, buuuuurrrn. You must be mighty proud of yourself for coming up with a witty response like that. Keep em comin

[prigo]

I'm feeling unmotivated

[Onizuka]

In my highschool and college carrer (your typical age bracket for the most gun deaths) 1 guy died from a drug over-dose, 1 girl from drugs and automobile driving, 1 from alcohol, 1 from an automobile accident, and 1 from falling down an elevator shaft.

Thats what you typically see from an educated middle-class. Drugs, alcohol and automobiles.

Most gun homicides take place in poor areas, with 2/3rds involving criminals killing other criminals (gang war, drug deals gone wrong). And 80% of firearms in those killings were aquired illegally.

Guns, for the extreme vast majority of gun owners, are a hobby. With every hobby on earth there is the potential to be killed, accidentally kill someone else, or forcibly kill someone else using ojbects aquired from a hobby. Approximately 30 skydivers die each year compared to 105 people who died while scuba diving, 856 bicycling, 7,000 drowned (365 in bath tubs), 1154 died of bee stings, 60 snowmobiling, 47 water skiing, and 300 died after being hit by lighting! Then of course there are highway fatalities which number upwards of 50,000. Heck you can die from strenuous physical activity such as sex, or you could take a steel knitting needle and stab someone in the neck with it. If death is so unacceptable, why dont we pass laws requiring everyone to live in plastic bubbles burried under 50ft of contact to prevent humans from coming in contact with other humans or inanimate objects.

This, in my mind leaves us with the following choices and reprocussions as a result of those choises:

-Ban handguns: Government spends millions, posibly billions, of dollars collecting every registered hand gun in america. Hobbyists (99.98% of handgun owners) lose something they are passionet about. Criminals (who dont follow laws) continue to obtain illgal firearms as they have been since background check were implimented. Suicidal depressives turn to razors, tall buildings, pills and other means of self destruction. 900 or so accidental gun deaths are prevented (again, you are more likely to die from a bee sting or driving your car, inherent risk of living).

-Ramped up prosecution for gun crimes (no new laws): Government again spends millions of dollars. enthusiats keep their guns. Criminals face harder sentences and guarenteed punishment for illegal use of guns. 900 gun accidents still accur (for all of the 224,000,000 guns in america). Suicidals take the easy way out with a gun instead of grandma's knitting needle.

-Education and community programs for poor area's: Government spends millions of dollars helping people. Gun enthusiasts keep their guns. An undetermin percentage of would-be-criminals might get a life out side of drugs and gang war. Accidents and suicides as above option. Better communities, more education, more wealth, less gun crime.

[The Mic]

oh btw props to silencer for viewing "Gun Control" in a positive light rather than in the standard "turn off" view

[Onizuka]

I also thought it would be prudent to mention that Cigarettes kill more Americans than AIDS, alcohol, car accidents, murders, suicides, drugs and fires combined.

"Cigarette smoking is the single most preventable cause of premature death in the United States. Each year, more than 400,000 Americans die from cigarette smoking. In fact, one in every five deaths in the United States is smoking related. Every year, smoking kills more than 276,000 men and 142,000 women."

1,711 infants die from smoking related diseases each year. Thats more heart breaking to me than gang bangers killing gang bangers with guns.

[BaliLover]

I keep seeing someone here say that if there weren't guns, you wouldn't need guns to protect yourself. To this I say you are wrong. Not all people are equal, some are bigger than others, some stronger, etc. A gun makes all things equal. If someone is twice your size, a gun levels the playing field or even puts you above the bigger guy.

If no guns existed, what would you suggest a 5'0" 100lb girl do to protect herself when a 6'5" 280lbs man decides he wants to force himself on her? Tazer have been proven inneffective in many cases, pepper spray doesn't always work and in some places is illegal to carry, and hes not exactly going to let her make a cell phone call and wait for the police.

It is for this reason that guns were created, to make all men equal, or to at least give the underdog an advantage.

[creophus]

WHAT THE **** IS WRONG WITH YOU!

" Guns are meant to be safe."

if they were meant to be safe then they wouldn't ****ing shoot things out that of them that are designed to kill people! if they were safe than they would shoot out hugs and ****. Sorry, but you are ****ing retarded.

The point I'm trying to get across is:

Guns were invented to aid in killing people? Why do criminals use a gun to rob people? Because they can kill you with the pull of a trigger? Why do you use a gun to "defend" yourself? Because you can kill them with the pull of a trigger! Its a cycle of killing! I'm anti-killing of everything. ****, I don't even kill insects.

You have made this a personal thing. That's not what this is about. That's the second time you've used the word retarded. Both times it was uncalled for. I've not called you any names, nor have I insulted you once. If I have, then I apologize.

I am making attempts to articulate my point of view with facts and personal experiences. You choose to use exclamation points, all caps and bold type to get your point across. A discussion such as this needs thinking and logic, not only emotions and feelings. They do have a place though.

Listen to what I'm saying instead of jumping off the deep end. I agree that guns are often used to kill people. They were made to kill and destroy things. But the point is to use them to kill the right people and to destroy the right things. All killing is not a bad thing. Many times its a form of justice. Please realize that I'm not advocating innocent people getting hurt.

Guns are meant to be safe, that's why cops carry them around. Would a cop be safer if he didn't have his gun? Would you be safer if he didn't have his gun? The answer to both of those questions is no. That's why I say guns are meant to be safe. As a homeowner, I, and everyone in my house is safer if I have a gun.
Modified by creophus at 9:38 AM 9/16/2004

[PalmerWMD]

Ok folks lets keep it civil ( who know who you are) if you dont want the thread locked.

I have my own strong opinion on this issue, but feel it less than proper for the Senior Admin to intervene in this converstation, right now.

Fred...

[180crafter]

Gun control cant work. But you forget the Y. Y cant it work??? Because they exist, pure and simple.

People will always be stupid. From the crackhead lady to the polotician that is taking money away from schools to give his girlfriend a new car. This Goes all the way to the president, whomever he is. People will always be stupid. Always. You have to limit to them what they can hurt themselves with. Example? ABS. People are too stupid to pump the brakes, so we created abs for the stupid people. How bout seatbelts? People are too stupid to wear them, even though they save lives, so we create this thing that annoys the crap out of you if you dont put it on. Need I say more?

If guns didnt exist, then there would be no gun control. If Normal people couldnt by handguns, and the gun companies had to spend XXXX amount of money to make this guns and make so little a profit, then they wouldnt be manufactured and illegally imported. There would be no illegal handguns, becuz there would be no handguns. There would be less crime, less killing and the world would be a happier place.

Not only that, but imported handguns are almost non existant. The amount is very.... VERY small. Y would you pay more for an importaed handgun if you could get one off a street punk.

Also, I dont think my buddy Dwayne the drug dealler will try to import a gun anytime soon. Neither will Jesus the petty b&e man.

Jeeze, gun control will do so much. More than what you guys are thinkning. Look past today, and your own worthless life. Think to all the lives, the evolution of man, and your children. A handgun I am willing to sacrifice to move people as a whole foward.

Gun control cant work. But you forget the Y. Y cant it work??? Because they exist, pure and simple.

People will always be stupid. From the crackhead lady to the polotician that is taking money away from schools to give his girlfriend a new car. This Goes all the way to the president, whomever he is. People will always be stupid. Always. You have to limit to them what they can hurt themselves with. Example? ABS. People are too stupid to pump the brakes, so we created abs for the stupid people. How bout seatbelts? People are too stupid to wear them, even though they save lives, so we create this thing that annoys the crap out of you if you dont put it on. Need I say more?

If guns didnt exist, then there would be no gun control. If Normal people couldnt by handguns, and the gun companies had to spend XXXX amount of money to make this guns and make so little a profit, then they wouldnt be manufactured and illegally imported. There would be no illegal handguns, becuz there would be no handguns. There would be less crime, less killing and the world would be a happier place.

Not only that, but imported handguns are almost non existant. The amount is very.... VERY small. Y would you pay more for an importaed handgun if you could get one off a street punk.

Also, I dont think my buddy Dwayne the drug dealler will try to import a gun anytime soon. Neither will Jesus the petty b&e man.

Jeeze, gun control will do so much. More than what you guys are thinkning. Look past today, and your own worthless life. Think to all the lives, the evolution of man, and your children. A handgun I am willing to sacrifice to move people as a whole foward.

Bali lover...It was me... and I do stand by what I said. Please read above, the whole thing, and hopefully you will understand what I meant.

Women who defend themselves from a rape with a handgun are few and far inbetween. If being a criminal wasnt so easy, most would not be criminals. If we take away another tool of crime, crime would be lessened.

Also... I keep hearing that we need to educate.. Please read above.

[ilovedrifting]

Don't sweat it guys. Even in the light of new information (to some), we still will not "waffle." We're loyal and have honor and integrity. We will remain consistent!

btw, ilovedrifting is a textbook example of why being 18 yrs of age is a prerequisite to vote

wtf is that supposed to mean???

[StrangeLove]

"Ok folks lets keep it civil ( who know who you are) if you dont want the thread locked."

Thats me!

Like I said before, If guns were meant to be safe then they shoot launch hugs and other such loving items out of them. They do not fire hugs, instead the fire pieces of metal that travel at hundreds of mph, and are designed to kill things!

RIGHT?

I'm ok with rifles and shotguns, they serve a purpose in soceity. People use them for hunting. Althought I disagree with hunting, I don't want to ban those types of guns.((I think if you are going to kill a deer you should run it down with a knife, and kill it with your barehands, not hundreds of yards away, and it never even sees you))

I do however have a problem with handguns and assault rifles. Yes they are cool and shiny, but they are not needed in society. I know they are your hobbies, and you lub your guns very very much. They are not needed! Why you ask?

1. They are used in the vast majority of crimes. Legally or Illegally obtained. Even if they are illegally obtained they were legal at one point. They were most likely stolen from law abiding gun owners.

2. Children die every year from accidently shooting themselves or their friends. This is completely unneccessary, no need for this to happen. You may say that the parents should of kept the gun in a better place. Just think about the average person in this country. Do you honestly expect them to take that kind of responsibilty? Not everyone is as perfect as you.

3. School shootings, It was in flint michigan where a first grader brought a pistol to school, and shot and killed first grade girl. Is this acceptable?

4. I don't want some criminal that steals your gun while you sleep to harm anyone that I care about. Yes, that is how they get their guns, see reason #1

The good must suffer for the bad. Simple as that. Or we can adopt canada's gun laws. They seem to work extremely well...

J-spec Tuner, Do you have any idea how much money was spent in Iraq? If the president was willing to spend that much money to help a country that doesn't belong to him. Why not spend some money on the country that he his in charge of?

Oh, and Iheartdrifting, You continuelly prove yourself to be immature, and present no factual basis for your beliefs. Unless you count "if you don't like guns, don't buy them." as a reason

"But the point is to use them to kill the right people and to destroy the right things."Am I wrong for thinking that in todays modern world that we shouldn't have to kill people and destroy things? Aren't we supposed to be abit more civilized?

creophus, I used all that profane language, yet you were offended by the word retarded?!

Prigo, at least I know what exactly? That I saw that you lacked common sense and reason before you even made a post? Ya, you are right, I did

(Ohhh burnn!)

Hey Fred, Hows that for civil?
Modified by pills at 8:04 PM 9/16/2004

[creophus]

Believe what you want to believe. You seem to have your mind made up.

[ilovedrifting]

how could you think that this should be illegalits sooooo beatuiful

[gabossie]

Just curious, why haven't you volunteered for our armed forces? Or how old are you?

[Cold_Zero]

gabossie-I hope that was not an attempt to question Ilovedrifting's patriotism or a suggestion otherwise. I would hate for someone to stop supporting our Troops (no matter how wrong or right we think the operation is) because their motives are called into question.

For the most party, we have kept this issue civil compared to how explosive the issue is in our country.

bud

[gabossie]

absolutely not, seriously. I really am just curious as to why, given the things he says, he hasn't joined up. Just because I don't necesarilly support the cause, doesn't mean I don't 100% back our troops.

We did keep it pretty civil I think, but it's degraded over the last page and a half.

[BaliLover]

Bali lover...It was me... and I do stand by what I said. Please read above, the whole thing, and hopefully you will understand what I meant.

Women who defend themselves from a rape with a handgun are few and far inbetween. If being a criminal wasnt so easy, most would not be criminals. If we take away another tool of crime, crime would be lessened.

Also... I keep hearing that we need to educate.. Please read above.

I read it the first time you posted it, and again when you quoted yourself, but not the third time when you double quoted. It doesn't say a thing about the fact that a gun makes a smaller person just as safe as a larger person. Someone that is 5'0" 100lbs, doesn't have much of a chance against someone 6'5" 250 in hand to hand combat. Now, if Mr. 6'5" is a criminal and carying a knife, or hell, even a baseball bat, what is Mr. 5'0" supposed to do, just lay down and give up?

Crime existed FAR before guns, and Crime has risen is countries and states where strict gun laws were inacted. I can show you proof of all of this. Show me proof of crime (not just gun crime) going down in a Country where such laws were inacted. It didn't happen in the UK or Australia, in fact criminals are now so ballsy, because they know most people don't have guns, that they are breaking into houses while the owners ARE home. Its called home invasion, you should check it out.

And America wasn't founded based on "limiting" humans, it was based on freedom, even if that meant taking a chance on people hurting themselves. If you want to live in a place where limits are instated everytime someone does somethign stupid, there are plenty of other countries out there for you, and I'm sure they'd love to have you, but America is all about FREEDOM. Say it with me, FREEDOM. Gun crime is quite a bit down the list on causes of death in America, and I've got no problem with you being worried about it, but only if you start eliminting the causes of death on the top of the list first.

What you are doing in effect is worrying about a rusted muffler when the car doesn't even run. You're not going for the major problems first.

[Cold_Zero]

Ok,For all of you obsessed with how dangerous firearms really are, I have located some statitstics from 1996 (I will search for figures that are more current)

Only 1.4% percent of people died as a result of suicides, homicides and accidents from firearms. It would appear that you are more likely to die from the fatty cheeseburger and sedentary lifestyle than a firearm.

bud

[Cold_Zero]

Attached is 1998 and 1999.The CDC was not nice enough to break down the suicide, accident and homicide stats by firearms related fatalities. The other guy did his homework for 1996 and was able to break down the stats. Still, you are more likely to die at the hand of a greasy cheeseburger, sedentary lifestyle and cigarettes.

[Cold_Zero]

It is simple.Ban:1. Fast Food and Laziness (1,3 and 6th causes of death)2. Smoking (2,4,7 causes of death)3. Automobiles and stupidity (5th cause of death)4. Teflon Coated pans (8th cause of death [Alzheimers])5. Alcohol (9th cause of death [non accident related])6. Sex (10 cause of death [AIDS])

We ned the Government to save us from ourselves. By banning these six things, we will all live forever because there will be nothing to die of. Of course I am being facetious.bud

[StrangeLove]

There is a flaw in your arguement:

The vast majority of those things you CHOOSE to do to yourself!

I do not choose to be shot to death!

If guns were not capable of killing me, then sure I'd be for them... Am I afraid of guns? Yes I am. Am I afraid of the things on your list? No, I choose to do all those things (I only do one of those things on the list, and thats drive, and even then I don't do stupid ****)

Can you explain how you die from a teflon pan please?

[ilovedrifting]

Just curious, why haven't you volunteered for our armed forces? Or how old are you?

I am 16, i'll be 17 in a week, and i plan on joining on my 18th birthday. Unless there is another terrorlst attack, then i'll take the GED and join while im 17.Can't wait to go kick some ***

[gabossie]

Awesome, that's what I hoped to hear. Good luck in the future