Drop Out Of School = Lose Your License

[themadscientist]

But tracks don't seem to care. Nice attempt at deflection, but you got the physics wrong. You are still headed towards the wall.

Shirley Muldowney must have snuck a couple of night classes in after she dropped out.

In fact, she dropped out of high school at age sixteen and married Jack Muldowney, a drag racer and mechanic, in 1956. When she married, Shirley Muldowney did not even know how to drive a car.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Shirl ... owney.aspx

[themadscientist]

Where'd ya go man. I could do this all day.

Dale Earnhardt. Ah, well, it's not like he wasn't one of the most famous NASCAR drivers of all time or anything.

Auto racer. Born Ralph Dale Earnhardt, on April 29, 1951, in Kannapolis, North Carolina. His father, Ralph Earnhardt, was a well-known racecar driver, and Dale Earnhardt began racing himself on the local tracks at the age of 15. He dropped out of school in the ninth grade to race full-time and work as a mechanic.

http://www.biography.com/articles/Dale- ... dt-9542044

[bigbadberry3]

So your only examples are of professionals? So can I list the drivers who went to school and can drive?

Professionals go to driving school where they acquire the science of the driving experience. It may not be straight forward equations but I bet they explain the scientific concepts of how their cars work.

[bigbadberry3]

So tell me how you can figure out how much fuel you need to go on a trip without math (just to expand from purely science).

[themadscientist]

So your only examples are of professionals? So can I list the drivers who went to school and can drive?

Professionals go to driving school where they acquire the science of the driving experience. It may not be straight forward equations but I bet they explain the scientific concepts of how their cars work.

With the exception of possibly Danica, those are all seat of the pants-taught drivers. Experience leads to capable drivers. Your score on the math test, or whether you even took one have no bearing.

So tell me how you can figure out how much fuel you need to go on a trip without math (just to expand from purely science).

Watching you grasp at straws like this reminds me of Monty Python. What are you going to do, bleed on me?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD ... re=related[/youtube]

Cars come with a fuel gauge, I suggest you check it from time to time. To demonstrate the jedi-like skill school has afforded you tape over your fuel gauge and proceed henceforth using nothing, but your fuel consumption-distance solving ability

[bigbadberry3]

Well I hope you have fun trying to guess if you're going to make it to the next exit on your 1/16 tank of fuel and by knowing your MPG (if you can even calculate that much).

I never said experience was bad for drivers but I bet you your drivers know why a wing works to create down force or why different sizes of breaks matter, etc, etc,.

You didn't forget that dropping out of school means you lose out on learning more than science did you so I can still argue what those fancy orange boards read, or how to figure out what change to throw in the toll booth, or how to read a map to scale, just some of the important things to pick up that make better drivers.

[Razi]

Stop with the "Race cars drivers know the physics behind cars, so should everyone else"
Cars are their profession, of course they should know.
Even then, they don't know everything, that's why they have engineers.
Do you know the physics behind airplanes?
The correction you need to make for your airspeed due to altitude?
The correction you make for your compass, depending on direction of travel?

The only thing from high school physics that would apply to daily driving a car would be Newton's Laws of Motion, even then you don't need to know them unless you're driving like an a** on the road.

My mother probably didn't even have a physics class where she went to school, but she has never caused an accident, ever.
The people have ran into her car? At least high school educated, college even.
How many people do you know that graduated from high school and still managed to cause an accident?

All you need to know is that a car is heavy, and it can't stop or turn on a dime, and it can easily kill people.
I knew that before I even hit high school.

You didn't forget that dropping out of school means you lose out on learning more than science did you so I can still argue what those fancy orange boards read, or how to figure out what change to throw in the toll booth, or how to read a map to scale, just some of the important things to pick up that make better drivers.

If you can't read or count money, how would you have bought a car and taken the license test in the first place?
And all of a sudden, without high school education you can't read boards on the road?
What happened to the elementary and middle school education before that?
You're really picking at straws here.

[bigbadberry3]

Well Razi I see a lot more important things than just Newton's big 3 such as power and torque but regardless I'm not saying physics is the only thing taught in school that could benefit drivers but is one of the many topics.

In regards to your other point, lots of people have rich parents or stupid friends that give them access to a vehicle.

I also work at the high school level. There are many people who have no issue reading but a surprising amount who do have serious issues (I was shocked when I began teaching). We assume that because we get it and it is simple and easy, everyone else does where that is simply not the case.

[Razi]

Why is power and torque important to understand?

I've been at the high school level, and saw a lot of idiots there, believe me.

I've also seen a lot of them dropout, and didn't and started working at Wal-mart.

Just because you dropped out of high school, does not mean you fail to gain the ability to read signs or do simple calculations, so using the graduation from high school as a yard stick to a person's ability to drive is ridiculous as any other stereotype, and that's what this is, a stereotype.

[bigbadberry3]

Why is power and torque important to understand?

I've been at the high school level, and saw a lot of idiots there, believe me.

I've also seen a lot of them dropout, and didn't and started working at Wal-mart.

Just because you dropped out of high school, does not mean you fail to gain the ability to read signs or do simple calculations, so using the graduation from high school as a yard stick to a person's ability to drive is ridiculous as any other stereotype, and that's what this is, a stereotype.

Not trying to insult you or anything but power and torque have actual applications to automobiles. If you've ever wondered why winding mountain roads are windy, it's because the winding allows roads to be less steep and therefore allow your engine to do the same amount of work over a longer period of time to avoid overheating or simply not slide back down the road. Torque has applications such as when you change tires so your wheels don't come back off and avoid over tightening.

Again, I'm not saying that because you're a dropout your dumb or fail to understand things (I know Bill Gates went through high school but didn't complete college and he's doing fine). But then, people who do drop out may indeed fit that criteria and may benefit from the extra exposure.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,178877,00.html <-- surprising amount IMO

I see plenty of reasons why high school should not be a requirement for a driving license but I also see plenty of reasons why it isn't a bad idea.

[Razi]

Maybe I should've been more specific.

Why is power and torque important to understand for the regular driver?
Even if they knew what they were, I'll bet you that most high school educated drivers don't even know what torque is.

And in the case of changing tires, sure, they should know not to overtighten lug nuts when they are putting on a spare tire.

So, due to the fact that a person might not understand that concept, because they did not graduate high school, they should not be allowed a driver's license?

[bigbadberry3]

Torque is good to know what you should tow and what you shouldn't tow.

Power so you know if you can make it up a hill or if you'll slide backwards into traffic.

First examples that came to my mind.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5exATIaQiI[/youtube]

I want people, who are on the road with machines that can end lives, that are capable of understanding their environment and the actions and consequences they are involved with.

[Razi]

So, the misunderstanding power was the reason why their cars went backwards in snow?
I think it has more to do with cars lacking the grip they needed in snow.
Even as a child, I understood that snow is slippery, and going up slippery surfaces makes things even worse, and I'm a Californian.

You don't need to understand what torque to know there are limits to what a car can tow.

Stop grasping at straws.

[bigbadberry3]

No, the sliding back was not entirely dependent on lack of friction but I won't dive into that, so I will say it was for a lack of knowledge. I'm clearly in the minority here so I will step down from my soap box.

[Jesda]

You falsely assume that the average high school graduate knows anything about physics.


Stop crowding classrooms with people who dont want to be there.

[bigbadberry3]

It's a teachers job to encourage students to want to learn. Just because their is initial resistance doesn't mean it isn't worth trying.

[krimsonviper]

With all those calculations going on in your head, it'll be a wonder why you couldn't cause an accident on a daily basis.

Whether you have a high school education or not doesn't matter. If you understand what signs mean, practice safe driving, and understand that your vehicle can't climb with a certain towing capacity, then you're good to go. Fuel gauge meters break, and your basic knowledge of what your car can and can't do can be from self taught knowledge as well as grasping the lessons taught from your daily experiences. Hell, 14 year olds used to be able to operate farm equipment for Pete's sake!

This rule, or law, is probably just another way for the gov't to gain money and waste it and waste our time jumping through uncessary loops. Jesda said it best,

Hey government, stop trying to engineer societal outcomes, okay?

[Razi]

No, the sliding back was not entirely dependent on lack of friction but I won't dive into that, so I will say it was for a lack of knowledge. I'm clearly in the minority here so I will step down from my soap box.

Please, dive in, although your own swimming pool might actually have no water.
I want to see what specific nugget of information that can only be found in high school would've prevented that situation.

Anyways, I enjoyed that video of 20 high school dropouts sliding backwards in their cars.

[Jesda]

It's a teachers job to encourage students to want to learn. Just because their is initial resistance doesn't mean it isn't worth trying.

I'm being trolled and its working. You, sir, are a master of your craft.

[bigbadberry3]

Power=Work/time, Work=Force*Distance

Substitute Force*Distance into the Power equation to get Power=Force*Distance/time

Distance divided by time is also know as Speed.

Substitute Speed for Distance/time in the power equation.

Power= Force*speed.

Force is actually the Net Force acting on the object. I'm going to keep it simple and say that the only force acting on the object is due to gravity (yes I'm omitting a lot of details but will discuss them if you want).

Substitute the force due to gravity on the object back into the Power equation.

Power=Mass*Gravity*Speed*sin(theta)

^The sin(theta) comes from the car being on a hill.

So I've forgotten my original point of this post but the power required to get up the hill is dependent on the speed of the vehicle, the angle of the hill, and the net force acting on the vehicles (which I have omitted some to make the math much simpler).

Or you can use energy which I will simplify that someone going up that hill needed to carry about a speed slightly greater than the square root of 2*gravity*height of the hill.

We do these types of real life problems in class very often. (Not while driving up a hill )

[bigbadberry3]

It's a teachers job to encourage students to want to learn. Just because their is initial resistance doesn't mean it isn't worth trying.

I'm being trolled and its working. You, sir, are a master of your craft.

Awwww, this is my first Jesda run in with the living legend and I <3 you.

[Razi]

This is painfully pathetic. You're also a high school teacher right?
Hey Teach, you forgot to talk about the snow.
Also, cars aren't as simple as a short calculation you do on your notebook.

By the way, why are you solving for power?
None of those cars in that video were lacking power, they were lacking grip.
Honestly, I don't believe you live in Chicago.

I think my way is better:
"Johnny, snow is slippery. Put on your snow tires today."

[bigbadberry3]

Yea yea yea. I skipped over a lot of details and left it at the level which we present it to our students in the conceptual and accelerated classes. I mean I don't think you want me to go bust out differential equations for air resistance, fwd vs rwd and how that plays into the grip on a hill and use torque to find out the weight on each of the tires, or phase diagram for our buddy H20, the coefficient of friction for the temperature of the tires. And I won't even if you ask nicely.

I went with power because it involves most of the factors for the hill steepness, speed, net force. If you open up the net force you will find friction included in there.

I really enjoy teaching car physics which is why I'm soooo biased here. My favorite example involves slamming on your brakes to avoid hitting a dear. ***In case you ever do have this unfortunate scenario, do not turn the wheel stay in a straight line while braking. If impact is going to happen, at the last possible moment let off the brakes for your own safety***

Ok. Ya got me. I'm 10 minutes west of Chicago.

[Razi]

Yea yea yea. I skipped over a lot of details and left it at the level which we present it to our students in the conceptual and accelerated classes. I mean I don't think you want me to go bust out differential equations for air resistance, fwd vs rwd and how that plays into the grip on a hill and use torque to find out the weight on each of the tires, or phase diagram for our buddy H20, the coefficient of friction for the temperature of the tires. And I won't even if you ask nicely.

So, the average high school physics class does not teach how to do calculations about snow, drivetrain, angle of the road, mass, and tire design and how they effect grip?
Hmm.

By the way, most modern cars have ABS, so turning won't cause the tires to lock up when braking hard.
A friend I had was did some work for the fire department and had his own Crown Vic with sirens and the lot, his training told him to brake just before the ABS engages, then turn slightly to a safe spot to avoid hitting the car in front.

Things like this is why you have statements like "Assume there is no *values important in real life situations* in this equation"

[krimsonviper]

Power=Work/time, Work=Force*Distance

Substitute Force*Distance into the Power equation to get Power=Force*Distance/time

Distance divided by time is also know as Speed.

Substitute Speed for Distance/time in the power equation.

Power= Force*speed.

Force is actually the Net Force acting on the object. I'm going to keep it simple and say that the only force acting on the object is due to gravity (yes I'm omitting a lot of details but will discuss them if you want).

Substitute the force due to gravity on the object back into the Power equation.

Power=Mass*Gravity*Speed*sin(theta)

^The sin(theta) comes from the car being on a hill.

So I've forgotten my original point of this post but the power required to get up the hill is dependent on the speed of the vehicle, the angle of the hill, and the net force acting on the vehicles (which I have omitted some to make the math much simpler).

Or you can use energy which I will simplify that someone going up that hill needed to carry about a speed slightly greater than the square root of 2*gravity*height of the hill.

We do these types of real life problems in class very often. (Not while driving up a hill )

You, sir, are wrong.

[themadscientist]

He would never admit it, but he is ready to exacerbate a young person's bad decision by denying him a tool to assist them in earning a living. Classic big-government carrot and stick social engineering.

[bigbadberry3]

So, the average high school physics class does not teach how to do calculations about snow, drivetrain, angle of the road, mass, and tire design and how they effect grip?
Hmm.

By the way, most modern cars have ABS, so turning won't cause the tires to lock up when braking hard.
A friend I had was did some work for the fire department and had his own Crown Vic with sirens and the lot, his training told him to brake just before the ABS engages, then turn slightly to a safe spot to avoid hitting the car in front.

Things like this is why you have statements like "Assume there is no *values important in real life situations* in this equation"

Did you not read my post or do you not get physics

Finding the net force involves balancing equations that include using:

1) The angle of the hill
2) The coefficient of friction
3) The mass of the vehicles

In regards to stopping, your tires work better when they are only trying to exert a force in one direction. If you try and brake and turn you are making your tires try to exert multiple forces in different directions therefore limiting your stopping performance.

Avoiding a head on car impact is different than my deer example because the deer example is very specific to well a deer.

[bigbadberry3]

Power=Work/time, Work=Force*Distance

Substitute Force*Distance into the Power equation to get Power=Force*Distance/time

Distance divided by time is also know as Speed.

Substitute Speed for Distance/time in the power equation.

Power= Force*speed.

Force is actually the Net Force acting on the object. I'm going to keep it simple and say that the only force acting on the object is due to gravity (yes I'm omitting a lot of details but will discuss them if you want).

Substitute the force due to gravity on the object back into the Power equation.

Power=Mass*Gravity*Speed*sin(theta)

^The sin(theta) comes from the car being on a hill.

So I've forgotten my original point of this post but the power required to get up the hill is dependent on the speed of the vehicle, the angle of the hill, and the net force acting on the vehicles (which I have omitted some to make the math much simpler).

Or you can use energy which I will simplify that someone going up that hill needed to carry about a speed slightly greater than the square root of 2*gravity*height of the hill.

We do these types of real life problems in class very often. (Not while driving up a hill )

You, sir, are wrong.

Please correct me as this is what me and my coworkers show. But don't go to the point where you want me to add in the momentum of the exhaust gas and details like such. (I'll gladly add on a constant force due to air resistance but will not do a second order diff eq for high school.)

[hannibal]

^ Dude, GTFO! What does any of that have to do with driving a vehicle? This is the gas pedal, this is the brake pedal, this is the steering wheel. Now go drive and gain some experience!

Jesda nailed it in his first post.

Preventing dropouts from having licenses won't increase graduation rates. If you're not in school, you should be working and should be allowed to have a license like anyone else. Heck, it makes more sense logistically to prevent kids in school from having a license. At least they can ride the school bus.

What about the teenage mom who dropped out? She shouldn't be allowed to drive to babysitter and then to work? Yeah, make her ride the bus (if that's even an option). That'll teach her to stay in school.

[Razi]

So, the average high school physics class does not teach how to do calculations about snow, drivetrain, angle of the road, mass, and tire design and how they effect grip?
Hmm.

By the way, most modern cars have ABS, so turning won't cause the tires to lock up when braking hard.
A friend I had was did some work for the fire department and had his own Crown Vic with sirens and the lot, his training told him to brake just before the ABS engages, then turn slightly to a safe spot to avoid hitting the car in front.

Things like this is why you have statements like "Assume there is no *values important in real life situations* in this equation"

Did you not read my post or do you not get physics

Finding the net force involves balancing equations that include using:

1) The angle of the hill
2) The coefficient of friction
3) The mass of the vehicles

In regards to stopping, your tires work better when they are only trying to exert a force in one direction. If you try and brake and turn you are making your tires try to exert multiple forces in different directions therefore limiting your stopping performance.

Avoiding a head on car impact is different than my deer example because the deer example is very specific to well a deer.

Oh, hitting dears are okay then.
What do you mean I don't get physics?
I graduated from high school.

And the notion that all high school graduates are some sort of driving gods, and all high school drop outs are destined to hit things is a stupid stereotype.
Are all high school graduates accident free?
Duh, no.
So, taking a license away from someone because they dropped out of high school is idiotic.
I know a woman who got pregnant during highschool and had to drop out, getting pregnant was not a good idea, she knows.
She had to drive to work to make money for her child because the father was too much of an idiot to help out.
She got her GED, and is currently going to community college to get a better education and get a job that pays better.
I don't understand how you expect a motivated person like her to get around these days to build a better future for themselves when they cannot drive a car.

And before you apply another stereotype about the children of high school dropouts, her oldest just got straight A's on her last report card.

Believe it or not, despite people with similar education backgrounds, they don't all act the same.