Dont kick me off here, but......

[SmithSR]

One Lexus design model grabs and holds my attention whenever I spot it: the SC lineup.

Infiniti is on the way up. New ad campaigns for Nissan in general, and the Infiniti G35 in particular, are doing wonders for public perception of the company. The main reason I am hopelessly in love with ALL Infiniti cars is their ability to blend and not be noticed. The average Joe can <see> it, but they never really <notice> it. That's the beauty of Infiniti in my opinion.

Auto theft runs rampant here. Two of the largest cities in this state both made the nationwide top ten list. The more a car can blend and not be noticed, the better. Hopefully Infiniti can stay under the general public's radar and still be profitable.

[Metroyed]

It's funny, before i bought my Infiniti, i would have told you that i liked Lexus more. I guess Infiniti to me means that someone took the time to shop around a little and buy a much better car for the money. Personally, i tend to root for the underdog, and I feel very proudly of my car. Secondly, whenever i see another Infinti driver, it's sort of like im part of a club of those who have wise and mature tastes. Finally, i like Infiniti because the best is yet to come with the newer and improved models which are starting to gather quite a following.

[FrEaK]

\

Lexus NEVER touted their car as being a sub 6-second 0-60'er despite the fact that the LS430 is faster than the new with LESS power.

That is debateable and you know it...

[jmatas]

I think Infiniti lost this game because of poor marketing/distribution, not because of product. The Infiniti brand grew (or tried to) right in the middle of Nissan's financial struggles. Not so with Lexus/Toyota. Only since Ghosn and Renault money rescued Nissan are we starting to see the capabilities of the Infiniti team. I would disagree with Aztec's opinion of the new Q. I think it's a great car, and the one point you're neglecting to mention is price. I can find a new Q all day long for high-$40K range. This vs. high $50K range for the new Lex. Comparing the M45 to the M5/E55 is a bit of a stretch. I could buy two M45s for the price of either of those. And since the S-type (presumably the S-type R) was mentioned, you're talking about a car with similar performance, albeit a FORD, that cost $20K more. The M45 may be the ugly duckling of the class, but it's definitely the best bang for the buck.Let's face it, with exception of a few stand-outs, ie the LS430 and SC430, Lexus's fleet us pretty much just gussied up Camrys. Lexus vs. Infiniti is always a fun and fair debate, but now more than ever, I like Infiniti's position. If you take Infiniti's newest models, the G, FX, and M, they pound their Lex counterparts hands-down. Hopefully the buying public will take notice.

[FrEaK]

I think Infiniti lost this game because of poor marketing/distribution, not because of product. The Infiniti brand grew (or tried to) right in the middle of Nissan's financial struggles. Not so with Lexus/Toyota. Only since Ghosn and Renault money rescued Nissan are we starting to see the capabilities of the Infiniti team. I would disagree with your opinion of the new Q. I think it's a great car, and the one point you're neglecting to mention is price. I can find a new Q all day long for high-$40K range. This vs. high $50K range for the new Lex. Comparing the M45 to the M5/E55 is a bit of a stretch. I could buy two M45s for the price of either of those. And since you mentioned the S-type (presumably the S-type R), you're talking about a car with similar performance, albeit a FORD, that cost $20K more. Let's face it, with exception of a few stand-outs, ie the LS430 and SC430, Lexus's fleet us pretty much just gussied up Camrys. Lexus vs. Infiniti is always a fun and fair debate, but now more than ever, I like Infiniti's position. If you take Infiniti's newest models, the G, FX, and M, they pound their Lex counterparts hands-down. Hopefully the buying public will take notice.

You realize Nissan is out of debt now and from what i hear are slowly doing a reverse takeover of Renault. They have some the best adds, best products and are selling like condoms on prom night...

[GEOFF]

I test drove an LS400 and was not impressed. Not very quick and no feel for the road. Arent those things front wheel drive? So numbing to drive thought I might fall asleep at WOT.

[j30t]

i still like BMW the best but thats just my opinion...i still like infinitis though...never would want or think about buying a lexus.

[jmatas]

You realize Nissan is out of debt now and from what i hear are slowly doing a reverse takeover of Renault. They have some the best adds, best products and are selling like condoms on prom night...

Yeah, exactly what I was getting at, or trying to 90s = Nissan trouble, Infiniti loses battle to Lex. Shift_Current = Nissan doing well, Infiniti coming out with good stuff on all fronts. If I can hope for some fruit from the Renault connection, it would be F1/SMG transmissions a la Ferrari and BMW.

[Jberger]

If you think Lexus is a dressed up Toyota, then how much better can an infiniti be than a standard nissan?

Answer, a hell of a lot better. For the same reason people chose a G35 over the z350.

infiniti has been quite confused in the market, beacuse they themselves were never quite certain what they wanted be.

At first they were a japanese BMW with Jaguar style.

Then they decided toothy grills and chrome mattered more than performance, finally the they were a Japanese Buick.

Now they've decided to play Japanese BMW again, but how long will it last?

Thier lack of internal focus lead directly to thier lack of market focus while Lexus maintained a laser-like focus on "the relentless pursuit of perfection".

Perfection, not good, not great, not nice, but PERFECT. And to a large degree they've attained thier goal.

The fit, finish, quality and service are the best in thier market and a benchmark for all other makes.

The scary part is now they are adding passion to the mix. What started as an abberation with the gs400 became a new calling with the SC. Just wait to see what they do with the LS's restyling in the next few years.

The early LS's did nothing to raise the heartrate of the driver, but the 98 restyle brought a nice driving experiance to the somber exterior and the new units outperform the Q45 with less horsepower.

Of course product is nothing without marketing and service, two other areas where Lexus has just flat kicked infiniti's ***.

The brand of Lexus is clearly identified the best of class for build, quality, service, reliablity, and value.

infiniti? Most people don't even know what an infiniti is, much less what it stands for. As a result, expectation, perception, Cache, and resale suffer.

Infiniti might be able to overcome the product advantage Lexus presently holds, but I doubt they will ever be able to overcome the market advantage as Lexus has continued to refine and invest in the brand image, while infiniti has marketed poorly and inconsistantly.

[bgilly]

My dad had a '94 (or was it a '95???) LS400, and I'd take the Q over it. I've driven both on a 5-6 hour trip to Havasu, and my Q is a lot more comfortable and more powerful. The seats in that generation LS400 suck, they're too hard and springy.

[fxjackso]

Despite the success of the G35, Nissan (Renault?) must step up to the plate with a high end performance model to distinguish the Infiniti lineup. Of course the M45 is trounced by the M5, the E55 and the A6S! These are limited production, winner-take-all sedans. Price is not much of an object, but bragging rights are. You can't beat Toyota at the luxury sedan game. The LS430 has a lead so big that the Q45 will not become a serious contender there. But by emphasizing performance the Infiniti line can thrive, both in the US and in Europe.

[maxnix]

This is why the new GTR has to be an Infiniti product in the US.

[elwesso]

Dennis has mentioned some common problems with the early LS400. P/S pump fails routinely, hood struts fail promptly at 60K, they have a timing belt that after two replacements costs as much as a guide job, had an old-style distributor/wire setup, the valves needed adjustment, etc...

I think the big plus was a more reliable tansmission. He did an analysis of the ownership costs of the LS400 vs. the Q, and it was amazing how efficient the used car market is in reflecting the true value of the cars.

Heath

So are the Lexii really worth more, because they cost less to maintain?? I find it hard to believe that a 94 lexus vs a 94 infiniti will be that much better (avg of 5500 vs almost 12000)...... The G50 Qs will run fine with little maintenance, and they will run perfect with NICO maintenance....... Granted, infiniti trannys arent that great (hell, even GM trannys last longer), but it cant make that much difference........

Also, do you have a link to that analysis, i would like to read into that somewhat!

[Jesda]

Whenever I or my parents went shopping for luxury cars, the Lexus and Mercedes-Benz names came to the top of our minds.

Not once nor EVER did we mention or consider the Infiniti brand. Even Cadillac came up briefly in discussion.

Only a couple years ago when I test-drove a 91 Q45 on a used lot did I become intrigued.

The problem with Infiniti sales is the total lack of brand awareness.

Brand-name gut reactions:Lexus = Bling Bling!BMW = Zoom! ******* driver!Audi = Zoom! High Tech!Mercedes = Bling Bling!Cadillac = *Snore* Bling Bling! *Grandpa's Car?*Infiniti = Neato, what is that? A Q30? Is that a V6?

Now I own a Q, and I gladly dumped my Mercedes.

-Jesda

[rydwhite]

I have disagree on the perception in Indiana. I live in indianapolis and I receive a couple of comps a day on my G35. A freind of mine just bought a 2003 Lexus SC and we live on the same side of town and park in the same garage in dowtown Indy at work and he told me that he rarely will get comps. I think that over time the Infiniti image has started to change and the cars are looking better. Nothing against the older Infiniti's, but they have more styling than in the past. Infinit is a great under-rated luxury car. I really don't see that Lexus is seen as a more superior car now, much as it was, say 5 years ago. Performance-wise, the Infinit is much better than Lexus and I credit that to there racing program from the IRL a few years back. They make better enginges, more horsepower, better transmissions. I think that there is a pretty large difference b/w Infiniti and Lexus. I know that the resale on the Infiniti is lower, but I am sure that will start to change with this newer fleet of cars.

[elwesso]

When I started this thread, I wasnt really referring to the NEW models, but to the early models of both companies (mainly comparing 90-96 Q45 and 1st generation LS400)......

I agree that the new infinitis are golden...... You see quite a few lexii around these days (because people think they are good), and you dont see as many Infinitis around...... so when people see a nice looking car (like a new g35), they are going to comment about it........ But there are sooo many lexii around that its almost like, eh another lexus, as weird as that may sound......

Maybe the people I hang around are just retards and dont know jack about cars (which is the case)......

[nlzmo400r]

Wow! Bold statement. But coming from a Nissan/Infiniti board member, I'm not surprised.

i feel the same way, the only lexus that is any intruging to me is the is3oo, and gs4oo, both of which are nice, but nothing super special, id take a new maxima with 6speed over the is3oo, and i'd take a g35 coupe, or i35 over a gs4oo, or ofcourse a Q

[greg_atlanta]

When people (normal, untrained) hear or think LEXUS, they think "ooh, fast, expensive, NICE", when they think INFINITI, they are like "eh, thats nice, but look at that lexus!! Get one of those!"

Lexus appeals to the "nouveau riche" (new money) types. If you were a 13 year old watching TV dreaming of being rich and famous, you'd want a Lexus.

Lexus is easier to pronouce than Infiniti, although both names get butchered. (I love when people say Lexus with a lisp.... Leth-thus").

I think Lexus are better cars in many ways, but they're just boring. However, boring cars sell better than exciting cars -- why do you think the LS400/430 is soooooooooo popular with retirees?

Lexus is the perfect car for people who don't like to drive (except IS300, which I think is cool).

[PalmerWMD]

Ahem, I remember Nissan press releases touting the Q45 as being able to reach 60 from a standing start in 5.2 seconds. In fact I have the press release CD. A high 6 second 0-60 run is on the optimistic side for this car. Nissan only change the numbers when all the cars turned out slower magazine times than expected.

Ahem,You may wish to refresh your memory then..

Infiniti they claimed 5.9 sec <not> 5.2 seconds!And a hi 6 second run is <not> optimistic as a matter of fact the 2k2 has generally gotten 6.5 sec even with (slower) early production and/or pre-production cars.

The last test that had the Q in it, (a fall 2k2 issue of Car & Driver) the 2k2 Q got 6.0 sec 0-60.

Thats basically the exact same number the OEM claims..

In other words: If you dont know what your talking about, I rather have you <not> post, rather than make stuff up, just to support your "arguement"!

Our standards, are a bit higher than that, here.

Fred..

[zinkie13]

OUCH thats gotta hurt deep down on the inside.

[RobHakari]

In other words: If you dont know what your talking about, I rather have you <not> post, rather than make stuff up, just to support your "arguement"!

Our standards, are a bit higher than that, here.

Fred..

:owned

:bsflag doesn't cut it here. we've got too many people who memorize little details about anything and everything

[nlzmo400r]

yea, that'll hurt ya, fred knows his stuff, so dont try to say he's not giving correct info, i bow down fred

[90Q45blue]

Dum, dum dum dum.....DUM

nick

[pcbootleger]

well I dont know too much about the sedan model nissans/infiniti on their performance. But I do know what they look like. When comparing to just looks I think most people would choose a lexus becuase of the sharp lines it has/had. Only now do the sedan model nissans/infinitis have the sharp edges that todays people like. Its a matter of taste I guess. Some prefer the rounded body of nissan/infiniti. It just depends on who you ask.

[BadQ45t]

pcbootlegger, Hey, love that Z. I have a 84' too....as for this arugment, I think that the early LS was blown away by the Infiniti, but i have to tell you that the new Q is not distinctive enough from the outside.

I've got all Nissans, I don't buy Lexus, but they are good cars. The G is turning the tide, restyle of the Q, rethink the M and they could really start to have an really complete line.

[Chally]

The 94 Q seems to be built stronger than the 94 Lex. When working on the Lex, you have to be careful to use the jacking points, otherwise the suspension or body bends.

Yes, seats are springy & hard & you feel like you may slip off the seat when going round a corner.

I love the Lex dash, but just replacing the Light in the Speedo Needle costs $500 for the Fluro bulb.

The Lex has presence, but the Q leaves it in its dust.

Brakes on 94 Q too small for fast driving. If you try to pull up quickly over 80mph, you think you ain't going to stop. Haven't tried the Lex.

Lex is easier to change Oil & Filter, but doing that Timing Belt is a killer. Took me 5 hours. (maybe I'm slow)

Each car serves a purpose. The Lex to be seen in, & the Q to driven.

[FrEaK]

Ahem,You may wish to refresh your memory then..

Infiniti they claimed 5.9 sec <not> 5.2 seconds!And a hi 6 second run is <not> optimistic as a matter of fact the 2k2 has generally gotten 6.5 sec even with (slower) early production and/or pre-production cars.

The last test that had the Q in it, (a fall 2k2 issue of Car & Driver) the 2k2 Q got 6.0 sec 0-60.

Thats basically the exact same number the OEM claims..

In other words: If you dont know what your talking about, I rather have you <not> post, rather than make stuff up, just to support your "arguement"!

Our standards, are a bit higher than that, here.

Fred..

Hah... i thought you were gone... apparently i'm not so lucky..

[PalmerWMD]

Hah... i thought you were gone... apparently i'm not so lucky..

Fred..

[FrEaK]

Just joking Fred... Good to see your still laying down the law

[PalmerWMD]

Just joking Fred... Good to see your still laying down the law

thanks for the clarifcation, I was getting worried mt old buddy freak had become rebellious.

Fred..