B.A.D. Q45 SuperCharged Setup

[MiniMan]

Hitman,

Any word on when you're picking the car up? I thought you were supposed to be getting it around this time (May/June).

I've recently re-discovered my interest for the project and am looking forward to finally having something put together. I know you've expressed interest in making a BRM supercharged setup, so I'd like to help you put a complete kit together for all of us once you have the car. Below are my well researched thoughts and opinions...

Personally, I would like to go with the cheapest solution available while maintaining Thomas Knight's quality. With the lack of his profit margin and the use of one of our cars for testing, we should be able to significantly reduce the cost of a kit.

What I'm thinking should be included in the kit:

- Modified and race ported Eaton 90 CID supercharger- All necessary pullies- All necessary mounting equipment and brackets- Custom upper intake manifold- Machined shim between block and head- Modified Timing and Fuel Maps- BM-70264 Transmission Cooler- Iridium Spark Plugs- Gauges (Boost and A/F, Optional)- Complete aftercooler setup (Optional)- Modified transmission valvebody (Optional)- Exhaust and headers (Optional)

If we could come up with a uniform solution of 6 psi (over 400 flywheel horsepower) and include everything needed, as above without options, I would like to see the complete setup around $4000.

I say the Eaton 90 supercharger as there is no point in going with the larger 112 for the small gains and the cost of re-designing everything, especially when we already have a prototype to have more M90s refabricated from. If the car came with the pulley's that would also let us cut to the chase and start ordering the correct sizes and/or having them machined.

I think a spacer/shim between the head and block would be good idea as it lowers compression and will let us advance timing more (equalling a larger power increase). You should be able to get the mounting brackets manufactured from the same shop. If not, I may be able to have them made.

Ignition timing is 15 degrees stock, and is adjustable without consult. We can merely tell people both how and how far to adjust it, as well as include an FMU to control A/F (and include the settings we discover). HeavyDuty or other knowledgable parties, would you care to inform me of alternatives besides this or JWT? Comments?

IMO, I consider the valvebody mod necessary to reduce transmission heat and reduce wear. Once done this mod, I believe the transmission will be perfectly fine to sustain 400hp or more. After all, heat is the number one killer of transmissions; not wear. Together with one of B&Ms larger transmission coolers we should be in great shape heat wise. IMO, better than stock.

As far as the manifold goes, all we need is to find a shop to refabricate the BAD version.

The above blown setup would respond extremely well to larger headers and exhaust. I'd consider this a top option and one that'll be on my to do list just as soon as I'm looking for more power.

I think I just covered every aspect of the supercharger, which should get us on our way here... once you (Greg) have the car everything should be straight forward.

Corey

[elwesso]

Take the lead Corey, WOOHOO!!!!!

However, heres something I noticed..... I think if anyone is getting the supercharger they will look inot the level 10 sometime soon.....

We should be able to design our packages. Most people here that would be interested in a SC would already have a transmission cooler, and the valve body mod is only slightly necessary...

I would personallly like to see a piggyback ECU if we could, in theory this would cost less. HOwever, JWT already has the boost map for this supercharger, so we would just send them to JWT and it shouldnt cost more... WE should be able to retard the timing enough from the ECU that a shim between the head and block isnt necessary, as that would be added labor (and a lot to pull the heads).

As far as I know, the supercharger is the new upper plenum, and it bolts right to the lower intake runners.....

If this becomes more of a reality, i will talk to my supplier and see aout getting iridium spark plugs for my same low price...

[AZ94Q]

You can get it right now from thomas knight.

BRM supercharger is a pipe dream.

Thomas will make you any kit you wish.

[AZ94Q]

I've spoken EXTENSIVELY with Mr knight.

[AZ94Q]

$2,000 down he will bid your kit. $2,000 upon completion.

Includes everything except the ECU...

It's actually only $3,900, as his price, included an FMU

[AZ94Q]

Let's be honest here.

Greg had trouble selling the 4.08... He put alot of effort into it..

People won't buy a 4.08 for under $1,000... Simply put people on this board will not pay for a supercharger. He will never be able to make back the money cost to fab..

Thomas knight is the best and IMO the only option for supercharging.

RSI made the headers possible. Greg still stands to lose money, if people respond like they did on the 4.08

[AZ94Q]

Corey,

I know you are serious. I am serious as well. Most people arn't. They love the idea of 400+ hp, but don't have the courage/funds/whatever to follow through.

If we could get 5 people, Thomas will give us a group buy discount.

I'm being frank, because you are one of the more serious people on this board. You, I, and a VERY select few others.

I put the supercharger group buy together in the first place. My time was completely wasted by people who were interested, and did the nico WEEZLE at the end...

Let's face it.. If it wern't for the select people I am refering to, the supercharger/4.08/headers/exhaust/sus controller/etc, wouldn't even exist.

[AZ94Q]

BTW as of tomorrow my car is P A I D for

I'm changing my name, and I'll post up a pic....

[AZhitman]

You can get it right now from thomas knight.

No, you can't. Send him some $$$ and see for yourself.

[quote=" AZ94Q BRM supercharger is a pipe dream.[/quote]

Closer than anything you'll ever build or own.

[quote=" AZ94Q Thomas will make you any kit you wish. [/quote]

Yep - Make sure you have enough money to ship him a car - and hope it doesn't come back with an electric supercharger.

[AZhitman]

Thomas knight is the best and IMO the only option for supercharging.

Not so. He's just one of many. Only seems to be since he's the one you've spoken with.

RSI made the headers possible. Greg still stands to lose money, if people respond like they did on the 4.08

Very true. I won't be pressured into another project again, as people talk a big game but don't drop coin.

The jigs alone for the headers and catback were ridiculously expensive. Had Rob not provided a car and the willingness to purchase the prototypes, we would be dead in the water.

If I told you that you could have the Q supercharger RIGHT NOW for $3400, would you write a check? That question is DEAD serious. I'll hold my breath.

[1992Q45A]

The question is never that simple....

my preliminary answer would be yes.

You know I was willing to help you acquire the original BAD car..

[1992Q45A]

Let's keep things fair here.

Thomas can have you a supercharger. Eaton M90 or eaton 112. He does need a VH to design a new manifold. He however can take care of this himself. You don't need to ship him a car. Yes, he believes in his electric supercharger concept. However, he won't sell you anything you don't ask for. That's a ridiculous accusation.

The price of $4,000 includes the cost of a test VH and an FMU.

I'll all for a BRM solution, but there are other options as well..

I think the point is essentially moot, because of the lack of demand. That is why I was telling the FEW serious people about Mr.Knight, because they could at least discover this end themselves, and not wait around for another solution that may never happen.

[AZhitman]

Very true.

However, after the most recent foray to the track, I can assure you the blown Q is far from a "pipe dream" - I need to acquire a 3rd vehicle (since I'm sure the Q will be down for some time), as I don't think I can be satisfied with a 15.1 1/4 in my beloved Q.

p.s. The original B.A.D. car is Fred's. And the second one is already mine, just makes more sense to ship it with the Skyline in August (I'm perpetually short of cash).

[MiniMan]

Greg, how much extra would it cost you to have it shipped now? Starting development two months earlier is a big step forward which would result in the kit being done much sooner.

Maybe I'm only speaking for myself here, but I am all for the least expensive solution. I highly value a good horsepower to dollar ratio and at this point in time, I feel a BRM setup to fit the bill, especially as we may be able to have it for much cheaper than Mr. Knight's solution. I know Thomas would easily be able to get us a supercharger setup within a few months, however unless we can get him to $3k or less for his kit, consider me out... at least until I weigh all other options. Don't get me wrong, for a total of $5k or so (w/o an aftercooler setup) it's still a good deal.

Ryan, I know you're all for Thomas' solution, but why not try to see who else would be able to develop a kit? I've e-mailed around to other makers of custom superchargers. I've only received one reply so far. The chap wants more info but is interested. It doesn't hurt to at least see if we can get more competitive pricing, you know what I'm saying?

Greg, Ryan brought up a great point... it may be wise to have people put a small deposit down before you start such projects. You need something at least, to make sure they are serious. Of course it is important that they have the full details before a deposit is requested... IMO, once people have ALL the details they need to make a final decision, it should be very easy to determine who is going to put their "money where their mouth is" so to speak.

Wes, I suppose we could factor JWT in. I'm unsure though if this would be less expensive than us discovering the settings ourselves via a trusty dyno, screwdriver and FMU. Don't get me wrong though, the JWT may well be the best way to go in the end. I doubt many buyers would want to spend hours trying to program their FMU and ignition advance. You bring up good points as far as the transmission cooler and valve body mods go. The transmission cooler I'm referring to though is *I believe* the 2nd largest available from B&M. The valve body mod significantly reduces heat while shifting. This mod would be dependant on how/where you drive. If you do lots of city driving I'd feel it would be well worth it, though if you do lots of highway driving, then it's not nearly as important from a heat perspective.

I mentioned the shim as it lowers compression ratio in particular. I'm sure I could make a shim for under $200 a piece plus the cost of install. When you factor in how much of a power difference this lower compression ratio makes, it would have an amazing hp:dollar ratio. I'd think an easy 20-30hp could be gained. Maybe to much for the average buyer, but maybe good as an option? Wes, I really appreciate your suggestions, please keep them coming!

Corey

[AZhitman]

Keep in mind, we are talking about one in the same solution. Tom built (most) of the BAD/BRM kit, which I now own the rights to (not that this means diddly-squat ). And as Ryan has said over and over, it IS a proven setup. It ran, and ran damn well, and at six lbs of boost was, in the owner's words, "nearly undriveable". I like that.

The problem is getting a manifold cast - The shop that did the first one is no more, and I have talked with a couple others about developing a replacement...

BUT, as you alluded to, it all comes down to $$$. Getting a custom part like a manifold cast is a pricey proposition. Even if I drop the $1800-$2500 to get a cast made and a second manifold produced, that cost is still something I have to absorb.

Obviously the third and subsequent manifolds would be less $$$, the pricing has to still be sufficient to recoup the first $1800-$2500. Most folks cringe at $650 for an ECU, and only one person has ponied up for the 4.08 (at a smoking price). Can't blame them, as an old Q ain't exactly a great investment...

Ryan is right on the money (no pun intended), as deposits would help defray that initial expense...

Beyond that, the rest is pretty easy. The intake is simple (I can have the BRM fabricators weld those up), same with the pulley brackets... Might have some issues getting actual pulleys made, but I'm certain Ryan or someone else could locate a source (probably some OEM application) for the ribbed pulleys (I'll have to look and see what the prototypes came off of) - Those are critical, as they dictate boost.

I think having the customer supply their own Eaton might help keep costs down as well. Bottom line is, you're right Corey - I have to get the car to Phoenix, dismantle the kit, ship the manifold off and drop the $$$ to get it replicated.

Then, I have to put it on a car, go get some 1/4 times and fuel mileage #'s, probably let several folks drive it, before anyone drops that kind of $ on it.

It's become a $ issue - Would you drop $2k on something you will NEVER see a return on? That money would buy a CF driveshaft, a 4.08 and a 50-shot NX kit.

With all that said, please believe that it remains a high priority for me. Why? Because *I* want boost!

[1992Q45A]

We went through all of this, when I put together the original group buy. Use whoever you want, it isn't my concern. I would like to see the project happen regardless.

My point is simple, and it is this: We have people working on multiple projects for the Q. The demand for them has been pretty insignificant.. Even something like the FSTB, probably wouldn't have been that hot of a seller.

The Q45 is not a supra, or some other ultra trendy JDM car, with a million aftermarket solutions. It is a luxury car that probably 90% of owners don't really want to modify. At most they would like to fix it's accelration dead spots, and get more power off the line. When I had my mkiv TT, I hung out a few times with the local supra crews, and these guys were nuts. They were dropping in the 10s of thousands of dollars, just to have the fastes supras in the country. They got into mod wars with people from rival states, such as California and Texas. People were mortgaging their houses just to get another 1.0 sec off in the 1/4... All these 10-9 sec supras running around, was essentially a result of a battle for modification supremacy.

If you can put a package together for 3,000 that would be great. However, I still think thomas is a good bet.

His cost of $4,000 included an FMU and a spare VH. Basically if you remove the VH and the FMU, it's around $3,000.

No matter who we go with, there will have to be extensive testing. A spare engine or car will HAVE to be provided. I'm sure there are a ton of good shops that would be willing to take on a project like this, but all of them are going to require a car or an engine, and undergo testing.

I am not obsessed over Thomas. However, he is proven. His cost is pretty much what you want to pay, minus the fmu/engine costs.. He knows how to make a supercharger for this engine, and would probably not need a whole lot of development time. Last time I spoke with him it was two months or so.

I think we differ on the best way to approach this project, but we agree that it should be done. I think Thomas can be economical and fast, if we provide him the neccasary resources, to complete the project. If you find another good shop, by all means let us know. I think they will need more time, as this will be a native voyage supercharging a VH for them.

Another thing to consider is the JWT ECU. There turn around on a regular ECU is 7 weeks or so. Greg has said earlier, and I would tend to agree with this, do you trust them to make a default ecu for your supercharged Q, with no testing???? I would really like to take my car there, and them develop an ECU after they do some testing on my car.. A one size fits all solution would be good, if they have done testing.

I'll assist in anyway I can.

[1992Q45A]

Corey,

You are right regarding the valve body kit. Q45tech has already said that a Q equiped with the JWT ECU is approaching the limits of the transmission.. With the valve body kit and a transmission cooler, the OEM should be able to hold up to the abuse....

[AZhitman]

We went through all of this, when I put together the original group buy. Use whoever you want, it isn't my concern. I would like to see the project happen regardless.

My point is simple, and it is this: We have people working on multiple projects for the Q. The demand for them has been pretty insignificant.. Even something like the FSTB, probably wouldn't have been that hot of a seller.

The Q45 is not a supra, or some other ultra trendy JDM car, with a million aftermarket solutions. It is a luxury car that probably 90% of owners don't really want to modify. At most they would like to fix it's accelration dead spots, and get more power off the line. When I had my mkiv TT, I hung out a few times with the local supra crews, and these guys were nuts. They were dropping in the 10s of thousands of dollars, just to have the fastes supras in the country. They got into mod wars with people from rival states, such as California and Texas. People were mortgaging their houses just to get another 1.0 sec off in the 1/4... All these 10-9 sec supras running around, was essentially a result of a battle for modification supremacy.

If you can put a package together for 3,000 that would be great. However, I still think thomas is a good bet.

His cost of $4,000 included an FMU and a spare VH. Basically if you remove the VH and the FMU, it's around $3,000.

No matter who we go with, there will have to be extensive testing. A spare engine or car will HAVE to be provided. I'm sure there are a ton of good shops that would be willing to take on a project like this, but all of them are going to require a car or an engine, and undergo testing.

I am not obsessed over Thomas. However, he is proven. His cost is pretty much what you want to pay, minus the fmu/engine costs.. He knows how to make a supercharger for this engine, and would probably not need a whole lot of development time. Last time I spoke with him it was two months or so.

I think we differ on the best way to approach this project, but we agree that it should be done. I think Thomas can be economical and fast, if we provide him the neccasary resources, to complete the project. If you find another good shop, by all means let us know. I think they will need more time, as this will be a native voyage supercharging a VH for them.

Another thing to consider is the JWT ECU. There turn around on a regular ECU is 7 weeks or so. Greg has said earlier, and I would tend to agree with this, do you trust them to make a default ecu for your supercharged Q, with no testing???? I would really like to take my car there, and them develop an ECU after they do some testing on my car.. A one size fits all solution would be good, if they have done testing.

I'll assist in anyway I can.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Precisely my thoughts. AND, I don't think we're too far off on the best way to approach the project.

The ECU issue really scares me. Although, CA isn't too terrible a trip, just the expense of shipping the car there and letting them map it and redo the ECU.

[elwesso]

I think Greg has a good idea with supplying your own eaton. WIth ebay, that should really cut costs..... MOst likely if BRM or T.K would get them he would buy them new, or certainly not wait aorund for an ebay deal... Or I could just go nab the one of my parents grand prix GTP. They can live with N/A..

I still think we should look at a piggy back ECU. That would be much easier IMHO than the JWT. When Im not running boost, i want it to run like it does now, and maintain the same highway mileage... If it takes JWT 7 weeks for a normal ECU, and $600, for boost, it would be insane. WE may be looking at half the price OF THE S/C just to get the damn ECU.....!

I think that Q45tech or someone like that with experience off the whazoo could come up with something. Maybe we could use the NOS ECU from JWT or something similar to it????

As far as the shim, we are running so low boost that IMHO i dont think its necessary, but what do I know, I didnt know what 10% of 22.5 was!!

[1992Q45A]

I think we need the JWT ecu.

When you are cruising on the highway, the eaton has it's own cutoff function. If you want the maximum smoothness, you are going to want the JWT. A piggyback is good for something like n20, that isn't on all the time. The supercharger is always on, but it has a boost cut off (from what I understand) when cruising at lower rpms..

I think JWT is the only way we will retain the smoothness of our setup, or something like an XJR.. who's setup we would be mimicking..

The XJR is one smooth vehicle, I would that smoothness carried over to the Q.

Getting an eaton off of ebay, or another source isn't a bad idea. Just remember Thomas was race porting them, so they wern't just the ordinary eaton. I'm sure whatever shop we get to help us can perform this race porting, as well. Just remember the race porting helped to achieve those big power gains at low psi

The XJR has an eaton m90. It runs 11 psi or so, and still only develops 80 more horsepower then the NA jag..

We were looking at identical gains at only 6 psi..

400 hp at 6 psi is a nice number.. I want to keep the PSI low, so intercooling isn't required. We can use a simple watercooling solution.

I think the biggest obstacle with JWT is the testing neccasary. I wouldn't mind driving to CA and having testing done, but would you like a SC JWT ECU that was only tested on a 92?

JWT is relatively cheap. We could probably have SC ECUs done for 500 or so... I think it's critical the ECU is done right. That includes testing on the car it's self. Drive an XJR, and you'll understand what I mean.

[AZhitman]

Correct. JWT's involvement is critical.

If you don't already have a JWT ECU (and shame on you if you don't), they only charge another $100 or so for adjustments.

I just read about a nice water injection setup that someone was using on their Z32TT, can't recall who built it. Seemed to solve a multitude of problems with detonation.

I also like the idea of considering one of the newer SC's, like the one Ryan mentioned from the Lightning. Should be a surplus of those soon, as there's quite a few being totalled (great power, crap handling).

[MiniMan]

I'm glad we're all on the same line here. Now, if we were to get Mr. Knight a car or motor to test on, well that'd take the cost of his kit down to my goals at least.

It is important to remember we can't use just any old eaton supercharger. I believe the one Thomas used was off a GM 3800, years 97+.

JWT should be an inexpensive solution once all is said and done. It's the turn around time that's killer.

Keep the commentary coming!

Corey

[AZhitman]

It's OK, Corey - we've already done that part! Long, expensive process - Some of the costs were unseen, as the car and the engine really took a beating (in more ways than one) during their lengthy residence there...

Now it's a matter of replicating the manifold and the other one-off parts...

[elwesso]

Off of a GM3800.. Those should be a dime a dozen! I got one in the garage!!!

[MiniMan]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 62742&rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 11137&rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 05789&rd=1

I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to get one for $100-$150...

Corey

[elwesso]

I think thats the way to go right there, supply our own M90... That should save us a pretty penny...

I wonder if theres any machine shops around me that could do this? (the manifold)?? I may just look into getting this done locally..... I mean, i wouldnt think it would cost more than $900 to get a manifold made.

Maybe what we're overlooking is the possibilty of something that would be close to what we would want and we could modify it to fit. Is there any car that uses a eaton supercharger and we could get the plenum off that, and possibly modify it to bolt on the lower plenum, or make a new thing that goes all the way to the heads.....

I wonder what kind of placement in the valley the supercharger has to be in order to clear the hood.....

[AZhitman]

Very low.

And NOTHING has a manifold anything like the Q. Think about this Wes: How many supercharged V8's are there?

Very few shops do sand casting...

[elwesso]

THats a good point. Maybe we could try swapping in 2 SR20s.....

Seriously, is this going to bolt to the lower plenum runners or is it ognna be a COMPLETELY new manifold?

[AZhitman]

All new.

I'd have taken pics of it for you guys but the SC was sitting on top of it.

[elwesso]

I had a neat idea for the guages..... (it would also be good for single DIN HUs too!)

Have a single DIN HU, and relocate the climate control unit right above that... VOILA! we have a nice spot for some cool guages to go, right under the analog clock! Or for that matter the guages could go above the HU or whatever, but I think the guages would look best up there...