Greg,
I found a fabricator in AZ that may be able to do the manifolds:
LAI Companies
I could name you plenty more, though they would be out of state.
[Edit]I couldn't find any manifold specific companies in AZ... as of yet[/Edit]
Corey
P.S. Great idea Wes.
B.A.D. Q45 SuperCharged Setup
Ahh....some others have a burning desire to build a very fast Q. Muy Bueno...I will let somebody else go first on this project and then probably do mine a couple months afterwards as waiting 3 weeks for headers really sucks although the headers will be very well suited to handle the extra HP from the SC.
-
psychic_mechanic
- Posts: 296
- Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 6:45 am
- Car: the world's ugliest civic
MiniMan wrote:I mentioned the shim as it lowers compression ratio in particular. I'm sure I could make a shim for under $200 a piece plus the cost of install. When you factor in how much of a power difference this lower compression ratio makes, it would have an amazing hp:dollar ratio. I'd think an easy 20-30hp could be gained. Maybe to much for the average buyer, but maybe good as an option? Wes, I really appreciate your suggestions, please keep them coming!
Corey
The reason a relatively low boost of 5-6 PSI was used was to work with the stock compression ratio. This is not a factory built concept car that has to use factory parts bin upper and lower ends and a band-aid to lower compression.
6 psi is fine... 6 psi netted 400 hp with the JWT ecu..
With headers.. CF driveshaft... 450 hp is right around the corner..
I think the biggest hurdle is still intercooling. Unless we all agree a water/alcohol mix is fine. Intercooling means we have to mod the hood.. Unless someone can create a work around..
Here is some info from thomas I had archived.
Here is a theoretical explaination of supercharging and the heat created by it: The power required to turn a supercharger is determined by it's adiabatic efficiency. That is how much of the pressure is translated into heat. It is measured by percentage. A centrifugal unit is about 75% at best, so 1/4 of the boost is translated to heat. A screw unit is 68-73%, and a roots type from the GMC diesels is 45-50% (like the big ones on funny cars). The Eaton (like I use) is a modern version with AE of 60%. The difference is mainly in how hot the air comes out rather than how much hp difference it takes to turn one. Being that 99% of cars will retain stock internals--pistons, rods, etc--the most boost we suggest is 5-6 psi. A simple approximation of the heat generated is 10 degrees per psi up to 10 psi (100 degrees @ 100%) above the outside air temp. If 5 psi is run at 50%, then 50 degrees + 50% would be 25 degrees extra or 75 degrees over outside air. On a 75 degree day, that is 150 degrees air going into the motor at 50% AE. At 60% it is 145 degrees, and at 70 % it is 140 degrees. So a turbo would be 10 degrees cooler than an Eaton at 5 psi--not much difference if you ask me. If an intercooler were added, the temp would be lower, regardless of what design was used. So on a stock engine running 5 psi there is little benefit of a centrifugal or screw type over a roots. An intercooler is at best 50% efficient, so lets assume a 75 degree increase X 50%, or a 37.5 degree drop in temp. 38 degrees? Hardly worth it when water-alcohol will drop 50+ degrees with a simple setup using a windshield washer reservoir, pump, and a windshield washer squirter from the hood of any car with a simple .025 restriction jet in the line. This is activated by a pressure switch which turns on the unit at 4 psi. The 66% distilled water & 33% grain alcolhol with a touch of food coloring can be made for $12 per 3 gallons. The fluid is injected just prior to the throttle body so the Eaton rotors and case are cooled as well, and increase the 'flash' of the alcohol & water to a vapor.
would have to get $500 more to include an air-to-water IC core. It would only be the heat exchanger--and the remaining components would be Ford Lightning factory parts. The catch can, pump, front heat exchanger, etc. Another concern is the added 1.5" to the system making a custom hood or scoop mandatory. A simple water-alcohol would accomplish the same thing up to 12 psi for almost nothing.
The 112 will be similar to the SVT Lightning unit. You wont need an intercooler for 5-6 psi--only a water-alcohol injection. Ac IC should not be added unless you fully build a race engine and run over 9 psi. An upgraded exhaust is a must. You can do this in the future, as well as cut the pre-cat off of the manifolds, as that is restrictive. By adding a larger flange where the manifolds originally dump into the cats you will increase flow 10-15%.
With headers.. CF driveshaft... 450 hp is right around the corner..
I think the biggest hurdle is still intercooling. Unless we all agree a water/alcohol mix is fine. Intercooling means we have to mod the hood.. Unless someone can create a work around..
Here is some info from thomas I had archived.
Here is a theoretical explaination of supercharging and the heat created by it: The power required to turn a supercharger is determined by it's adiabatic efficiency. That is how much of the pressure is translated into heat. It is measured by percentage. A centrifugal unit is about 75% at best, so 1/4 of the boost is translated to heat. A screw unit is 68-73%, and a roots type from the GMC diesels is 45-50% (like the big ones on funny cars). The Eaton (like I use) is a modern version with AE of 60%. The difference is mainly in how hot the air comes out rather than how much hp difference it takes to turn one. Being that 99% of cars will retain stock internals--pistons, rods, etc--the most boost we suggest is 5-6 psi. A simple approximation of the heat generated is 10 degrees per psi up to 10 psi (100 degrees @ 100%) above the outside air temp. If 5 psi is run at 50%, then 50 degrees + 50% would be 25 degrees extra or 75 degrees over outside air. On a 75 degree day, that is 150 degrees air going into the motor at 50% AE. At 60% it is 145 degrees, and at 70 % it is 140 degrees. So a turbo would be 10 degrees cooler than an Eaton at 5 psi--not much difference if you ask me. If an intercooler were added, the temp would be lower, regardless of what design was used. So on a stock engine running 5 psi there is little benefit of a centrifugal or screw type over a roots. An intercooler is at best 50% efficient, so lets assume a 75 degree increase X 50%, or a 37.5 degree drop in temp. 38 degrees? Hardly worth it when water-alcohol will drop 50+ degrees with a simple setup using a windshield washer reservoir, pump, and a windshield washer squirter from the hood of any car with a simple .025 restriction jet in the line. This is activated by a pressure switch which turns on the unit at 4 psi. The 66% distilled water & 33% grain alcolhol with a touch of food coloring can be made for $12 per 3 gallons. The fluid is injected just prior to the throttle body so the Eaton rotors and case are cooled as well, and increase the 'flash' of the alcohol & water to a vapor.
would have to get $500 more to include an air-to-water IC core. It would only be the heat exchanger--and the remaining components would be Ford Lightning factory parts. The catch can, pump, front heat exchanger, etc. Another concern is the added 1.5" to the system making a custom hood or scoop mandatory. A simple water-alcohol would accomplish the same thing up to 12 psi for almost nothing.
The 112 will be similar to the SVT Lightning unit. You wont need an intercooler for 5-6 psi--only a water-alcohol injection. Ac IC should not be added unless you fully build a race engine and run over 9 psi. An upgraded exhaust is a must. You can do this in the future, as well as cut the pre-cat off of the manifolds, as that is restrictive. By adding a larger flange where the manifolds originally dump into the cats you will increase flow 10-15%.
It would be kinda neet to use a 112. Then we could use the OEM ford equipment for intercooling and such. That should save some money.
We need to get some numbers on the airflow increases over the 112 vs the 90. Also the price differences.
Or something like the XJR, with twin air to air intercoolers..
I wish we didn't have to stick the eaton right on top of the plenum..
I hate to lose the "rolex of engines" appearence.. but the power gains will ease the pain
We need to get some numbers on the airflow increases over the 112 vs the 90. Also the price differences.
Or something like the XJR, with twin air to air intercoolers..
I wish we didn't have to stick the eaton right on top of the plenum..
I hate to lose the "rolex of engines" appearence.. but the power gains will ease the pain
Here's an eaton 112 on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...33741
anotherhttp://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...33741
I'll post up more links as I find them.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...33741
anotherhttp://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...33741
I'll post up more links as I find them.
This is kind of interesting. You can upgrade your M90 to a 112.
http://www.zzperformance.com/z...d.htm
"The M112 hybrid is a blower modification for your Eaton Gen 3 M90 (GM only), which replaces the factory rotors with M112 rotors. The M112 rotors are larger giving you 24% more airflow, both in theory and backed by our supercharger dyno. We use extension plates on the housing to allow room for the longer rotors."
24% more airflow. that's sexy.
The price of the upgrade is basically the price we can get the 112 off of ebay.
http://www.zzperformance.com/z...d.htm
"The M112 hybrid is a blower modification for your Eaton Gen 3 M90 (GM only), which replaces the factory rotors with M112 rotors. The M112 rotors are larger giving you 24% more airflow, both in theory and backed by our supercharger dyno. We use extension plates on the housing to allow room for the longer rotors."
24% more airflow. that's sexy.
The price of the upgrade is basically the price we can get the 112 off of ebay.
Info on eatons lineup of blowers
http://www.capa.com.au/eaton.htm
Eaton 112http://www.capa.com.au/eaton_mp112_4th.htm
I just learned the Jag uses the 112, not the m90. I thought the R models used the M90, but apprently they use the M112.
I think we should go for the 112, if we can make it work. It's sweet on the XJR. that's a nice car to benchmark for our cars.
http://www.capa.com.au/eaton.htm
Eaton 112http://www.capa.com.au/eaton_mp112_4th.htm
I just learned the Jag uses the 112, not the m90. I thought the R models used the M90, but apprently they use the M112.
I think we should go for the 112, if we can make it work. It's sweet on the XJR. that's a nice car to benchmark for our cars.
Damn this sounds HOT
Adaptable to stock intercooler systems for Eaton M112 internal intercoolers. Replaces the anti-freeze cooling system hoses and runs ice water through your intercooler. Overall temperature drops to engine averaging 90 degrees.
Works on:
1999-2003 Saleen S281 and S281-SC with Series 1, 2, and 3 Eaton superchargers***
1999-2003 Ford F150 Lightning
2003 Ford Mustang Cobra
Adaptable to many other applications with internal intercooler systems located below the supercharger
http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/quartermilefords/
Difference in the underside between the M90 and 112? Let me see if I can find out
Adaptable to stock intercooler systems for Eaton M112 internal intercoolers. Replaces the anti-freeze cooling system hoses and runs ice water through your intercooler. Overall temperature drops to engine averaging 90 degrees.
Works on:
1999-2003 Saleen S281 and S281-SC with Series 1, 2, and 3 Eaton superchargers***
1999-2003 Ford F150 Lightning
2003 Ford Mustang Cobra
Adaptable to many other applications with internal intercooler systems located below the supercharger
http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/quartermilefords/
Difference in the underside between the M90 and 112? Let me see if I can find out
Hmm for some reason I couldn't upload the pics.. Invalid file format.. It's a gif, which is allowed in the drop down box.. I renamed it to remove _ and spaces.. not sure why it wont upload
Anyway take a look at this
This is the M90http://www.capa.com.au/eaton_m90data.htm
Scroll down the page and you will see a diagram of the supercharger at all angles..
Here is the M112http://www.capa.com.au/eaton_mp112_4th.htm
Again scroll down and there is a diagram of the different angles.
Anyway take a look at this
This is the M90http://www.capa.com.au/eaton_m90data.htm
Scroll down the page and you will see a diagram of the supercharger at all angles..
Here is the M112http://www.capa.com.au/eaton_mp112_4th.htm
Again scroll down and there is a diagram of the different angles.
not that this probably really matters....but the blades on the Eaton coated with different stuff to produce a different sound...some Eatons sound better than others do to the coatings....Jag had a lot of complaints about the sound not being pleasing to the ear so they had the blades coated differently from the 2000 to the 2001 models. Go and listen to the SC between the two years and you can definetly hear a difference in tone/pitch/loudness/etc.
Vinny, maybe I'm not understanding the point you're trying to make... but we're trying to keep costs low, not through the roof. If you're suggesting we should lower compression though a more commonplace method, by all means find us some 9.0:1 pistons that will be just as reliable and inexpensive. You won't be able to.psychic_mechanic wrote:The reason a relatively low boost of 5-6 PSI was used was to work with the stock compression ratio. This is not a factory built concept car that has to use factory parts bin upper and lower ends and a band-aid to lower compression.
Lower compression means more timing advance which means more horsepower. Running a lower compression now means more upgradability down the road. Something which I will eventually be wanting to do.
Corey
Funny story Greg... add a supercharger, you will have a hard time fitting a FSTB... especially with an intercooler.
IMO, I would much rather go with an intercooler than a water/alcohol injection as you don't have to constantly worry how full the tank is, etc. An intercooler would also be better for higher psi applications down the road. The FSTB would make the car handle so much better though
.
Corey
IMO, I would much rather go with an intercooler than a water/alcohol injection as you don't have to constantly worry how full the tank is, etc. An intercooler would also be better for higher psi applications down the road. The FSTB would make the car handle so much better though
.Corey
