AT WHAT POINT DOES THE MPG GET BETTER???

[heliochrome85]

in general, i stay away frm the Fun pedal. I use Cruise as much as possible because it can maintain the speed without excessive throttle. that being said, the results are marginally better, but at 4.40 a gallon, every bit helps. Also, make sure your tire pressures are set properly and keep the car at a minimum weight and you should see the mpg even out. Infiniti engines are genreally gas hogs, which is unfortunate.

[Raylo]

My .2.

I get about 18mpg but I hardly ever drive on the highway.

As far as the Lexus it was the G's main competition and that is what my wife wanted me to get because of the reliability. She always rave's about her moms toyota camry and how she has had it over 10 years and has 100,000+ miles and has NEVER been in the shop.

Lexus makes a damn nice car. But that is where it ends for me. They are ho hum cars that don't lite MY fire. My wife says her next car will be a Lexus. I hope to be so lucky with my G with reliability because I dread the "I told you, you should have got the Lexus" day!

[Tampa G35 Sedan 6MT]

I know we all are proud of our Country almost as much as we are our INFINITI's

But I know i am blessed to be an American and wouldn't trade this country for all the Autobahns in Germany

Would like to get rid of the speed limits like they had in the 50-60's on the express ways

DJ

[Tampa G35 Sedan 6MT]

I dread the "I told you, you should have got the Lexus" day!

You better knock on wood because that day is going to come sooner or later!

Pssss! Just get it fixed and don't tell her lol

[smockers83]

reminds me of the old saying for some women, "beautiful body, with a face to guard it."

We call those butterfaces.

Sorry Falcon for starting this debate on whether the Lexus is a sports car or not. I have nothing against it, I just don't classify it as a sports car, more as a tourer. Tourers have the get up and go, but its luxury and what not put before performance.

[Minmey15]

Before I say anything, please understand that I am a big Skyline fan, and I love my V36. However, I do not consider my V36 a sports car. It's a GT. G35 seems like it's a bit sportier than Lexus, but it's just sportier.

V36 nor V33 were made for track or twisty. They are just nice accord of sports and comfort, and were targeting North American market that has lots of straight line freeway. I would say that is a GT.

BTW, I am getting 19MPG combined. I do not push my V36 all day long. Just a few times a day around a few spots, or one night per month or so when I go to a mountain road near by late at night on weekend.

[Kendahl]

My G37S started out between 20 and 21 mpg. After 4,000 miles it has improved to 22 to 23 mpg. I don't know how much of the improvement is due to break in and how much to driving it in warmer weather. About half of my driving is on free flowing urban interstate at 60 to 65 mph.

Back when the car typically gave 21 mpg, we took a 100 mile trip on rural interstate at 75 to 80 mph. Mileage was 23 mpg for the tank that included the trip. In June we will put about 1,500 miles on the car at similar speeds during a vacation trip. I am curious to see what it will do now.

The Lexus SC400 was one of the cars I considered before buying my G37S. Like the G37, the SC400 combines elegance and comfort with performance and handling. It is hard to find one for sale since they have been out of production for several years and Lexus didn't sell very many. Although I'm sure the SC430 is functionally very good, I can't get used to its appearance. It's styling is a major disappointment after the SC400.

[Jacko3]

Minmey15:

My good friend, would you like to loan me your car for a single day? I can't understand why you baby your V-36 this way? It is a sin in my world to drive the G-35 Coupe like Lexus. Trust me, my friend, the car actually gets better the more you drive it harder.

If the G-35 Coupe was not intended ot be a sports car, what do you think led Infiniti to install a 19 inch tires, Rear Active Steer, 4 Wheel Active Steer, and the rest on their cars, if they never intended for you to push it? I see how and why it can be a GT car but then, with the right infrastructure, it can be a beast of a sports car. is the 350Z anymore of a psorts car than the G-35 Coupe, since both are built with the same engine and frame work?

[Sentientbydesign]

Since I know you all LOVE my opinion...

I get 16 in the city, 19 if baby her...really baby. Typical mixed driving yields 18-19 MPG. I've never gotten over 21, but I do a lot of stop and go driving and I drive 80 on the FWY.

Disclaimer: Jacko makes off-the-wall completely unqualified statements about how the Japanese engineers made our G35s. Just and then go on the side lines.

A few things to consider in order to improve fuel economy:

Synthetic lubricants generally provide better protection and improved efficiency.

Heavy, large rims (you know, the ones that look great on our Gs) are just stealing gas from you.

Differing gas mixtures and climate conditions will greaty effect your MPG. California has some of the most diluted gas in the country and we pay a premium for it

Next weekend, I'm going to try to fit in a test-drive day. I want to drive another newer Bimmer to see if I change my mind about them, because currently, I think they are the biggest hunks of luxury junk built.

I'm also curious to see what a Lexus IS350, an EVO, and an STI feel like.

[Jacko3]

SentientByDesign:

Why do you still habor doubts about the way our cars were actually made and they way they should be driven? Were they designed any differently than the much respected Nissan Skyline? I doubt so.

What is good for the skyline, is also good for the G-35, G37, or the G50 (if it exists). If the Skyline loves ot be flogged, then the G-35 and G-37 loves to be flogged as well---Nissan cannot afford to be Dr. Frankenstein in their design philosophy---one minute luxury sedan/coupe and the next minute sports car. The philosophy has to be the same at all times. And right now, their philosophy is all about sportiness and driving excitement. hence, the many awards garnered by the G-37 and previously the G-35.

Trust me, if you drive your car hard and with real zest, you will come to the same conclusion as I---I don't baby my car. If the engine blows up, all I need to do is get another engine. Period! The VQ engine is one of the most exciting engines I have ever driven---it is raw.

Anyway Sentient, have a popcprn on me. How is your day coming along?

Sentient, why is it that you and some others don't want to flog your cars routinely, and yet want to question a guy who flogs his car the moment it hits the road form his driveway? I don't understand this! Other than take my car to a real race track, I have taken it to the limits as best as I can on regular roads. Of course, there are still a few things to learn about the car but I think in 1 year of ownership, I have done quite well exploring the boundaries of the machine called the G-35 Coupe.

[Sentientbydesign]

Hey Jacko,

I don't doubt the abilities of my car. I doubt your over-zealous opinion of your car

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I don't push my car. I've gotten myself into many a sticky situation and pushed through it. But there are a few things to consider:

1) I'm young and I don't like expensive insurance. So I don't drive like an idiot all of the time...Actually I just don't drive like an idiot at all.

2) We have the highest vehicular density of any state. Which means that at any given time, there are more cars on our roads than yours. As such, I can't go "flog" my car every 1/4 mile.

I will, however, be taking my G to a drift/gymkhana event on June 22nd. Hopefully, my lovely assistant will be the camera woman and I'll be able to share pictures and possibly footage.

Saying that pushing your G will extend it's life is just wrong. Giving others expected life spans is also wrong. Lying about your location is...

Anyways. Back to the subject. Power and fuel economy don't sit well together. If you want fuel economy, keep your foot out of your throttle and learn how to conserve energy output. Momentum is your friend!

[Jacko3]

SentientBy Design:

Why then do you sound like a guy in their late 50s to early 60s--not that there is anything wrong with that--just correlating your attitude with your age---I also will get to that age someday. .

It is hard to beleive a young man would speak so unenthusiastically about everything this early on in life. Why all the pessimism? Rarely hear you speak optimistically. Did you have a hard life at some time in this existence? I too had a hard life at some point, but i still see the world more positively than you do.

My dear friend, if i did not have another car that i flogged routinely, I would have bought into your opinions. Rememebr, i have little nissan that is approaching 250K. Speak more like there is light at the end of the tunnel.

How old are you? I Judging by your attitude, I am glad I have not revealed my real name or where I really reside---too pessimistic.

Don't post political crap here anymore. This is the only warning. -Beancooker-

By the way, back to fuel economy, power and fuel economy can sit perfectly together, if you have a hybrid or a pure electric car. Sentient, you need to stop misleading people with those unqualified comments you routinely make.

[Sentientbydesign]

Check my profile if you're interested in me. Everything is true and accurate. Hardly what I can say about yours

I speak the way I do because I have an extreme hatred for those who misinformed. My father-in-law is one of those people. I don't hate him, but I hate how he makes up stuff just for fun and spews it to the masses.

As for my car. I had an I30 with 280k miles on it. I put it through it's paces with mods, racing, drifting, extreme driving...etc. I've grown up and realized that I can still have fun without being an idiot and possible hurting other's lives.

I also realize that we don't all make 6 figures a year and some of us would like to be able to enjoy our cars without being raped at the pump.

As such, consider your comments and evaluate the black and white truth before making them.

[Jacko3]

Sentient:

I am going to be frank with you, there is no point having all this hate and indignation bottled up. It will only make you unhappy with many people on this planet. I really wouldn't like to know you judging by your inate ability to hate anything different from you. I think this forum is enough of how I want to be in contact with you.

There is nothing to consider about my comments. I make comments based on my experiences. Now, why would I tell people something that I have never experienced before?

And I would also like you to consider that what maybe truth to you maybe a falsity to someone else. Did you ever take time to consider this?

I see the world half full and not half empty. Try optimism for once. It works!


Modified by Jacko3 at 2:50 PM 5/27/2008

[heliochrome85]

you both need to chill. seriously. lets get back to the topic at hand, which is how to maximize how awesome the G is while minimizing the costs.

Sentient, you know how much Jacko loves his car. He has composed poetry for it. His love is real and deep. Accept it and move on.

Jacko, not all of us are able to love our cars as much as you. Flogging your car may be good for the ocassional "Italian tuneup" but for most of us, it isnt a cost effective solution.

Now lets all chill and remember, We are all on the same team. well except for that guy with the musket exhausts and $hiteous sidescoops. He isnt on our team.

http://forums.g35club.org/zerothread/338907

[Jacko3]

heliochrome:

You are right! I am done! Sentient can go ahead and say whatever pleases him. I shall respond no more to his comments. I give my word!

[Sentientbydesign]

Helio (do you have a helio?)

I couldn't deal with the Ocean. 4 ringtones options for MMS wasn't cutting it.

As for Jacko, I'm just keeping things straight. We don't need newbs believing his ..... verbatim. I don't challenge his questionable relationship with his G. It's the comments about it "loves to be flogged" "made as a race car" "will last longer if flogged" "will last x amount of years if you do this and y amount of years if you do this".

Go ask Noah, if you want more info on other "Interesting" facts.

[heliochrome85]

haha, actually i have an iPhone. which btw, is LOVE. The name actually comes from my favorite color on my favorite car. Sorry G, my love resides with the VW Phaeton.

"So-called heliochrome finishes, which give off three different colours, depending on the angle of view, make for a particularly unique look. A blend of three heliochrome colours is available exclusively for the Phaeton. "

Just to clarify, you WILL wear out your engine if you drive it like you stole it. Treat your car with the same respect you treat your S.O. She will treat you right. At least, lola does.

[Beancooker]

First off, POLITICS is a different forum, near the bottom of the main page. Any other posts regarding politics will be deleted without hesitation.

Second, Jacko and Nate, BOTH OF YOU knock off this bulls**t. I will not repeat myself on this again.

Third, for the new guy, Jacko has some grandiose thoughts about the G35. Nate can be pessimistic, but also knows quite a bit.

Last, pushing your car to hard/to it's limit, will not kill it in one day, however, it will shorten the life span of the car. The higher RPM's a car runs at, the longer it sustains the high RPM's, and the higher heat associated with running your car hard, take a toll on it's longevity. End of story.

[themadscientist]

And as far as opening up your G, I can tell you with confidnce that once you are done with the break in period of about 1,500 miles, start flogging the car. Trust me, Infiniti engines are unusually good at being driven hard on first day. The earlier the car starts adjusting to being flogged, the longer the car will last and the less problems you will have in the future with the car. All G-35s are prone to issues and problems when they are babied. It maybe the same for other cars as well---I dunno. A part reason for this is that the design of infinitis and more recently, Nissans, are more and more being based on the design philosophy and thought process used in the design of the Nissan Skylines. The skyline is feared and respected for its reliability under abuse. such a car was not designed for babying. BMWs and Mercedes Benz's are sought of like that.

Modified by Jacko3 at 8:40 PM 5/25/2008

Wow, that is some really interesting theory you have there. Completely wrong but definately interesting.

[Minmey15]

Minmey15:

My good friend, would you like to loan me your car for a single day? I can't understand why you baby your V-36 this way? It is a sin in my world to drive the G-35 Coupe like Lexus. Trust me, my friend, the car actually gets better the more you drive it harder.

If the G-35 Coupe was not intended ot be a sports car, what do you think led Infiniti to install a 19 inch tires, Rear Active Steer, 4 Wheel Active Steer, and the rest on their cars, if they never intended for you to push it? I see how and why it can be a GT car but then, with the right infrastructure, it can be a beast of a sports car. is the 350Z anymore of a psorts car than the G-35 Coupe, since both are built with the same engine and frame work?

Jacko,

First, my V36 is a sedan. It's 6MT, but a sedan. And Active steer and all that stuff, that just proves that it's a GT. Real sports car would not have all that juck, for it will spoil the drive feel.

You are right about one thing. Any car can be a beast depends on a driver. And I know my car is capable of doing alot. I drift, have fun with some people at twisties sometimes. However, I do not drive like a maniac and try to race everyone on street. That is just childish, and does not prove my love for my Skyline. I have always loves Skyline since R30, and do not need to be flooring every chance I get to show my love.

Jacko, Skyline and Skyline GT-R are totally different cars. If you compare R32 and BNR32, R33 and BCNR33, and R34 and BNR34, then you would know what I am talking about. Also, V35 was developed as a concept car "XVL," which was designed by Porche. What you are talking about sounds like Skyline GT-R, however, any cars would wear out quicker if you push it hard.

And my opinion about G35 and 350Z.. Both of those cars are GT. 350Z may be a bit lighter, yet still a GT to me. Since S30 was such a big hit in the U.S., S31, S130, Z31, Z32, and Z33 have been targeting North American Market just as our V35 and V35. That means it is meant for highway cruise rather than twisties. That is a GT!

[WDRacing]

I'm not taking sides on any of this...whatever you call it. But I can say with confidence that the way you break in the motor will have long lasting effects on it's performance for the motors life span.

It's has been proven on dyno's and on road courses that breaking a motor in hard yields better ring seal. Which in turn yields a more efficient motor. By efficient I mean as the fuel/air mixture is combusted the power from the actual combustion is harnessed more fully. This improves the power as well as preventing piston ring blow by which is what gives us all the sludge in the oil.

After the initial break in period for ring seal, and it's not as long as many think, flogging the car does nothing more then waste fuel.

Also, the theory behind constantly beating the car will improve it's performance and or extend the length of the drive trains lifespan isn't just wrong, it's going to mislead people and possibly cause harm. Stress on the ALL parts of the drive train increases with the amount of torque applied. PERIOD

No the motor isn't going to fail just because you flog it, but it is certainly NOT going to extend it's life span.

WD

[Jacko3]

WDRACING:

Best comment and argument I have read on this issue, ever. I agree 100% Perhaps I did not state my case as well as I should, and as well as you have. Well said!

Like I said before, I am not a good mechanic and I will never be one--so I don't brag about what parts do what. But I am very in tune with any car I drive to know how it responds with varying inputs and whether such inputs improves or degenerates the cars handling and driving experience with time.

My comment about lasting longer comes directly from my observation of my little nissan (246K + miles)---4 banger, that I have flogged so mercilessly, and yet the darn thing keeps trudging along. I had more issues with the car when I babied it in the beginning as I listened to tons of people making terrible claims about driving cars gently which they claimed extended their life. I disagree with them as I also think flogging your car has the potential to give the car less problems with equally long engine and transmission life. One day, I threw all that talk into the trash and I started flogging the hell out of the car for another 4 years, and till this day, this little nissan gives me zero problems with routine maintenance.

My biggest fear now, is driving her little or less than before I bought my G, which is proving to be bad for her behavior on the road. So, every forth night, I take her out for a routine 60 miutes flogging to clear her head and system. So, i am still failing to understand all these critics who feel that flogging is bad for the car, when for all intent and purposes, my little nissan should have been in the junk yard by now, or at least had its transmission and/or engine replaced by now---I just don't undertsand. My little nissan engine still has the original timing chain in the engine after 246K + miles---has never been replaced.

I am not telling anyone to flog their car in order to mislead anyone. I am telling them from my experience that my G drives far better now than it did when I first bought the car. The car now drives and feels like a toy more than it is car. Shifting is now 110% excellent, with exceptional clutch release and pedal response (accelerator). In fact, my G-35 starts becoming horrible to drive when i drive it slowly or babay it for too long---it almost starts behaving like a sloth.

As you rightly said, the down side is the waste of gas that occurs in this process. I feel that is a small price to pay in order to drive a car that seems to get better with age instead of the other way around. So, to each his own. if I didn't have a second car that I treat the same way, I won't be hear saying all this. And when i bought my car, I never planned to keep it beyond 6 years. With the way I drive, except I am on a track every single day, I doubt I can wear out the transmission and engine in 6 years. There will be a better G by that time. So, why not enjoy what I have now as long as I give it its proper maintenance, even if it is in excess.

for example: these are now my stanadard maintenance tips--I don't care what anyone thinks.

G-35 Coupe1. Engine oil - Synthetic Mobil 1 5W - 30--change every 3000 miles, good or bad

2. Spark Plugs ---OEM---change every 40,000 miles, good or bad.

3. Air Filter - JWT pop charger--change every six months or worst case, once a year, good or bad.

4. Brake Pads OEM---fronts 6 - 9 months and turn rotor, rear pads 1 year +.

5. Brake fluids - change every 2 yrs or every second change of front pads whichever comes later.

6. clutch fluid--change every clutch and flywheel change or every 2 - 3 years, whichever comes first.

7. Radiator fluid --change every year

8. Oxygen sensors---change every 3 years good or bad.

9. Transmission fluid ---30,000 miles, and LSD fuild---every 20,000 miles.

10: Drive belts ---50 ,000 miles to 60, 000 miles.

11. Wheel alignment---once every 13 K - 15 K miles.

Little Nissan:

1. Dino oil ---20W-50 Castrol Oil -- 3000 miles.

2. radiator flush ---once a year

3. OEM spark plugs ----once a year

4. Air filter -----twice a year

5. Fuel filter-----once a year

6. Brake pads----front pads once every 18 months, rear shoes, once every 4 - 5 years.

7. gear oil----once every 3 years.

8. Tires---fron tires, once every 2 years, good or bad.

9. Alignment---once a year (but I know I should do this twice a year--car is already old but reliable--so no biggy--handling is still good).

I don't care what the manual says or the cost. The earlier routine maintenance is done, especially if you flog your car, the better it is for the car. I am a maintenance buff. I have always been that way. If one can't give their car the loving it needs, then they don't need to own a car to beging with.

There are tons of peopel begging me to sell my little nissan to them inspite of all the miles it has---I have refused for fear of these people skimping on its maintenance and fo fear that they will baby it too much with the way they drive--hate to see a good thing go bad.

This is the reason why i am able to flog my car the way i do, and as i will always do until all the cars quit cranking, which I highly doubt will happen anytime soon.


Modified by Jacko3 at 11:01 AM 5/28/2008

[Jacko3]

Minmey15:

Then, how do we explain the use of traction control and ABS in Formula 1 cars and in the GT-R, since these sports cars are way beyond GT cars? These technologies should technically hinder the classification of these types of vehicles as non-sports oreinted cars.

Anyway, thanks for the info on the Nissan brand of cars. Yes, the Skyline and Skyline GT-R are different cars. How is your day coming along?

[Beancooker]

Jacko, what engine is in "the little Nissan"? I am curious as to which "4 banger" it has, since some are really good, and last a long time, and others, well, aren't so great.

[C-Kwik]

Minmey15:

Then, how do we explain the use of traction control and ABS in Formula 1 cars and in the GT-R, since these sports cars are way beyond GT cars? These technologies should technically hinder the classification of these types of vehicles as non-sports oreinted cars.

Anyway, thanks for the info on the Nissan brand of cars. Yes, the Skyline and Skyline GT-R are different cars. How is your day coming along?

Stop trying to type so eloquently and use plain English. The intent of your message is not clear.

But if you are trying to say that the use of traction control and ABS in race cars and high end sports cars is an indication of a car being a sports car, then you would have to classify my Titan as a sports car. It too has ABS and traction control.

Secondly, F1 racecars have had on/off bans on traction control and they do not allow ABS.

http://www.formula1.com/inside....html

http://www.formula1.com/inside....html

Lastly, the systems used in race cars, if/when they are allowed, are much more sophisticated than those found typically in the typical personal automobile. High end sports cars may be more similar, but the G35's traction control is typically just a massive closing of the throttle, where as a racecar's traction control is going to control the throttle to keep traction at the limits.

[Jacko3]

Stop trying to type so eloquently and use plain English. The intent of your message is not clear.

But if you are trying to say that the use of traction control and ABS in race cars and high end sports cars is an indication of a car being a sports car, then you would have to classify my Titan as a sports car. It too has ABS and traction control.

Secondly, F1 racecars have had on/off bans on traction control and they do not allow ABS.

http://www.formula1.com/inside....html

http://www.formula1.com/inside....html

Lastly, the systems used in race cars, if/when they are allowed, are much more sophisticated than those found typically in the typical personal automobile. High end sports cars may be more similar, but the G35's traction control is typically just a massive closing of the throttle, where as a racecar's traction control is going to control the throttle to keep traction at the limits.

C-Kwik:

I beleive you are just as eloquent as I am. Touche! I don't know what other version of English language I am supposed to use to communicate my ideas. Is there a different version of the English Language you are conversant with, which that I am unaware of? I would really like to know.

According to Minmey15, "And Active steer and all that stuff, that just proves that it's a GT. Real sports car would not have all that juck, for it will spoil the drive feel." What I gathered from this is that all RAS and other similar technologies in modern day cars diminish the classification of most of these cars, to include the G-35 Coupe, as sports cars.

So, to test the logic, I introduced the comment, "Then, how do we explain the use of traction control and ABS in Formula 1 cars and in the GT-R, since these sports cars are way beyond GT cars?". I hope my semantics is clearer to you now.

In addition, while some may disagree, your Nissan Titan for insurance purposes, is considered a sports truck, and not a regular truck. The insurance rate, while accounting for the same variables for a regular truck and a sports truck, is different. bTW, Nissan is considering a serious deal with Chrysler (currently owned by Cerebrus), to assist nissan in building their trucks while Nissan assists Chrysler in building small cars. So, keep your Titan handy

Sophistication has little bearing on the fact that some race cars still use traction control in varying forms, thus potentially negating the argument posed by Minmey15 . And I am aware that F1 has been moving towards eliminating the perceived unfair advantage posed by some advanced technologies used by some of the best F1 teams (Ferrari team in particular), to include traction control. Hey, have a popcorn on me.


Modified by Jacko3 at 12:53 PM 5/28/2008

[C-Kwik]

C-Kwik:

I beleive you are just as eloquent as I am. Touche! I don't know what other version of English language I am supposed to use to communicate my ideas. Is there a different version of the English Language you are conversant with, which that I am unaware of? I would really like to know.

You missed the point. And that was that it was hard to understand what you were trying you imply, particularly when you stated:

"These technologies should technically hinder the classification of these types of vehicles as non-sports oreinted cars."

Which made it hard to tell if you were trying to argue that sports cars should or should not have ABS and traction control.

According to Minmey15, "And Active steer and all that stuff, that just proves that it's a GT. Real sports car would not have all that juck, for it will spoil the drive feel." What I gathered from this is that all RAS and other similar technologies in modern day cars diminish the classification of most of these cars, to include the G-35 Coupe, as sports cars.

So, to test the logic, I introduced the comment, "Then, how do we explain the use of traction control and ABS in Formula 1 cars and in the GT-R, since these sports cars are way beyond GT cars?". I hope my semantics is clearer to you now.

It is a bit more clear now. And I agree traction control and ABS are not things that shouldn't be in sports cars, but that's really just a mattter of opinion. I won't go down that road.

In addition, while some may disagree, your Nissan Titan for insurance purposes, is considered a sports truck, and not a regular truck. The insurance rate, while accounting for the same variables for a regular truck and a sports truck, is different.

I'd call the F-150 Lighting or the SRT-10 sports trucks. The Titan is fairly agile for such a large truck, but sports truck it is not. Hell, I can barely keep up with the GF's CRX if there are any turns along the path of tr4avel. But the point I was making was only if you were arguing that ABS and traction control are what make sports cars, sports car. But that doesn't appear to be the case now.

Sophistication has little bearing on the fact that some race cars still use traction control in varying forms, thus potentially negating the argument posed by Minmey15 . And I am aware that F1 has been moving towards eliminating the perceived unfair advantage posed by some advanced technologies used by some of the best F1 teams (Ferrari team in particular), to include traction control. Hey, have a popcorn on me.

My point about the sophistication was to indicate that the end result of the system, especially with traction control, is much different. I pointed it out under the presumption that you were arguing that ABS and traction control make a sports car. Again, not the case as you clarified...

[Jacko3]

C-Kwik:

Nice response!

[Beancooker]

Jacko, what engine is in "the little Nissan"? I am curious as to which "4 banger" it has, since some are really good, and last a long time, and others, well, aren't so great.

Dunno if it was missed, or purposely ignored.