Are you for legalization or against it? (marijuana)

[Qwerty1942]

Care to show me that while being under the influence MJ has never in human history caused someone to exhibit such poor judgement as to do something that killed them? Far too many DUI deaths have occurred for you to say that MJ doesn't cause death. If it alters perception or judgement to cause you to exhibit poor judgement leading to death, it is too much of a contributing factor to dismiss it out of hand.

and if you look closely @ said DUI cases you'll see that , in most instances, some other drug (usually alcohol) was thrown into the mix.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H...iving

"Whereas these results indicate a 'change' from normal conditions, they do not necessarily reflect 'impairment' in terms of performance effectiveness, since few studies report increased accident risk. "

"Subjects under cannabis treatment may perceive that they are impaired and may strategically compensate, for example, by not overtaking, by slowing down and by focusing their attention when they know a response will be required."

"Specifically, 4-12% of accident fatalities have detected levels of cannabis.[citation needed] However, most studies report that the majority of fatal cases with detected levels of cannabis are compounded by alcohol."

"Similar conclusions have been reached by studies maintained by the federal governments of Australia, United Kingdom, New Zealand and the United States (see here for a list of studies). Those studies that have concluded that cannabis has a significant negative effect on driving ability generally involve the use of roadside sobriety tests as an indicator of reduced ability (for example, see this NIDA report). However, studies that employ this methodology show that a majority of subjects who tested positive for THC also tested positive for alcohol, already described as a limiting factor of validity."

/check, you're move.

Care to show me definitive proof that bullous lung disease over the course of human history has never been caused by MJ? At least one study says it has. Even the researcher in charge of the study said the study didn't last long enough to follow it out to a conclusion on death.

ONE study... LMAO

btw, if you're going to reference studies, please post the corresponding link like I've been doing, thanks.

How many deaths have been attributed to something in which MJ was a contributing factor?

Tobacco kills about 400,000Alcohol kills about 80,000Workplace accidents kill 60,000Automobiles kill 40,000Cocaine kills about 2,500Heroin kills about 2,000Aspirin kills about 2,000Marijuana kills 0

There has never been a recorded death due to marijuana at any time in US history.

Prove your grandiose statement that it will never in the future be proven that it doesn't kill.

My statement proves itself everyday a day goes by without a mj death occurring.

More research needs to be done before I'll be comfortable enough to allow "anything goes" legalization.

you think the public needs your particular approval for legislation? lmao wow what a blowhard statement. and I don't know what you mean by "'anything goes' legislation," but even if people did want to have such legislation, I'll tell you this much: we wouldn't need you to do it.

I've explained from my standpoint...wah wah wah etc...

I'm done compromising. Either you can provide a legitimate example of a mj death or you can't, end of story.

[Qwerty1942]

btw srellim234, as far as your crying and yelling about "needs more study" goes, look at this: Legal_and_political_constraints_on_open_research

United States

This issue was recently highlighted in the United States by the clash between Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS), an independent research group, and the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA), a federal agency charged with the application of science to the study of drug abuse. The NIDA largely operates under the general control of the Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP), a White House office responsible for the direct coordination of all legal, legislative, scientific, social and political aspects of federal drug control policy.

The cannabis that is available for research studies in the United States is grown at the University of Mississippi and solely controlled by the NIDA, which has veto power over the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to define accepted protocols. Since 1942, when cannabis was removed from the U.S. Pharmacopoeia and its medical use was prohibited, there have been no legal (under federal law) privately funded cannabis production projects. This has resulted in a limited amount of research being done and possibly NIDA's producing cannabis which has been alleged to be of very low potency and inferior quality.[92]

MAPS, in conjunction with Professor Lyle Craker, PhD, the director of the Medicinal Plant Program of the University of Massachusetts at Amherst, sought to provide independently grown cannabis of more appropriate research quality for FDA-approved research studies, and encountered opposition by NIDA, the ONDCP, and the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA).

[srellim234]

From CA NORML, a pro marijuana site:

http://www.canorml.org/healthf....html

Myth: No One Has Ever Died From Using MarijuanaThe Kaiser study also found that daily pot users have a 30% higher risk of injuries, presumably from accidents. These figures are significant, though not as high as comparable risks for heavy drinkers or tobacco addicts. That pot can cause accidents is scarcely surprising, since marijuana has been shown to degrade short-term memory, concentration, judgment, and coordination at complex tasks including driving[10] There have been numerous reports of pot-related accidents - some of them fatal, belying the attractive myth that no one has ever died from marijuana. One survey of 1023 emergency room trauma patients in Baltimore found that fully 34.7% were under the influence of marijuana, more even than alcohol (33.5%); half of these (16.5% used both pot and alcohol in combination[11] This is perhaps the most troublesome research ever reported about marijuana; as we shall see, other accident studies have generally found pot to be less dangerous than alcohol.

Nonetheless, it is important to be informed on all sides of the issue. Pot smokers should be aware that accidents are the number one hazard of moderate pot use. In addition, of course, the psychoactive effects of cannabis can have many other adverse effects on performance, school work, and productivity.

From further up on the same page:

Myth: Marijuana is HarmlessJust as most experts agree that occasional or moderate use of marijuana is innocuous, they also agree that excessive use can be harmful. Research shows that the two major risks of excessive marijuana use are: (1) respiratory disease due to smoking and (2) accidental injuries due to impairment. In addition, marijuana speeds the heartbeat, which can be dangerous for patients with serious heart disease.

Recent studies have also shown that marijuana can aggravate symptoms of mental illness in persons with schizophrenic tendencies. At least four studies - in Australia, Sweden, New Zealand and the Netherlands - have found that early, repeated use of cannabis is associated with exacerbation of schizophrenia in young patients so inclined (Source: British Medical Journal "Cannabis and Mental Health." 23 Nov 2002). Marijuana is therefore generally disrecommended for schizophrenics, though it may also occasionally be medically useful for treatment of certain schizophrenic symptoms.

Marijuana and Smoking:

A survey by the Kaiser Permanente Center found that daily marijuana-only smokers have a 19% higher rate of respiratory complaints than non-smokers[01] These findings were not unexpected, since it has long been known that, aside from its psychoactive ingredients, marijuana smoke contains virtually the same toxic gases and carcinogenic tars as tobacco. Human studies have found that pot smokers suffer similar kinds of respiratory damage as tobacco smokers, putting them at greater risk of bronchitis, sore throat, respiratory inflammation and infections[02]

Although there has not been enough epidemiological work to settle the matter definitively, it is widely suspected that marijuana smoking causes cancer. Studies have found apparently pre-cancerous cell changes in pot smokers[03] Some cancer specialists have reported a higher-than-expected incidence of throat, neck and tongue cancer in younger, marijuana-only smokers[04] A couple of cases have been fatal. While it has not been conclusively proven that marijuana smoking causes lung cancer, the evidence is highly suggestive. According to Dr. Donald Tashkin of UCLA, the leading expert on marijuana smoking[05]

"Although more information is certainly needed, sufficient data have already been accumulated concerning the health effects of marijuana to warrant counseling by physicians against the smoking of marijuana as an important hazard to health."

Fortunately, the hazards of marijuana smoking can be reduced by various strategies: (1) use of higher-potency cannabis, which can be smoked in smaller quantities, (2) use of vaporizers and other smoke reduction technologies[06] and (3) ingesting pot orally instead of smoking it.

[Qwerty1942]

From CA NORML, a pro marijuana site:

http://www.canorml.org/healthf....html

oh look at what you "conveniently" left out from the link you posted:

Quote »Myth: Marijuana is a Major Road Safety Hazard

Numerous research studies have found that marijuana is on balance less of a public road hazard than alcohol. Various accident surveys have found that over half of fatal drivers have alcohol in their blood, as opposed to 7 - 20% with THC, the major psychoactive component of marijuana (a condition usually indicative of having smoked within the past 2-4 hours)[12] However, the great majority (70% - 90%) of THC-positive drivers also have alcohol in their blood. There is little accordingly little evidence that marijuana use by itself is a major public safety hazard [ 13].

Two major studies by the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration have confirmed marijuana's relative safety compared to alcohol. The first, the most comprehensive U.S. drug accident study to date, surveyed blood samples from 1882 drivers killed in car, truck and motorcycle accidents in seven states during 1990-91[14] Alcohol was found in 51.5% of specimens, as against 17.8% for all other drugs combined. Marijuana, the second most common drug, appeared in just 6.7%. Two-thirds of the marijuana-using drivers also had alcohol. The report concluded that alcohol was by far the "dominant" drug-related problem in accidents. It went on to analyze the responsibility of drivers for the accidents they were involved in. It found that drivers who used alcohol were especially culpable in fatal accidents, and even more so when they combined it with marijuana or other drugs. However, those who used marijuana alone appeared to be if anything less culpable than non-drug users (though the date were insufficient to be statistically conclusive). The report concluded, "There was no indication that marijuana by itself was a cause of fatal accidents." (It must be emphasized that this is not the case when marijuana is combined with alcohol or other drugs).

The second NHTSA study, "Marijuana and Actual Driving Performance," concluded that the adverse effects of cannabis on driving appear "relatively small" and are less than those of drunken driving[15] The study, conducted in the Netherlands, examined the performance of drivers in actual freeway and urban driving situations at various doses of marijufana. It found that marijuana produces a moderate, dose-related decrement in road tracking ability, but is "not profoundly impairing" and "in no way unusual compared to many medicinal drugs." It found that marijuana's efects at the higher doses preferred by smokers never exceed those of alcohol at blood concentrations of .08%, the minimum level for legal intoxication in stricter states such as California. The study found that unlike alcohol, which encourages risky diring, marijuana appears to produce greater caution, apparently because users are more aware of their state and able to compensate for it (similar results have been reported by other researchers[16]).

Another survey of 2,500 drivers in South Australia failed to find evidence that marijuana is a significant road safety hazard[16B]. The researchers examined blood samples from drivers in non-fatal accidents for traces of alcohol, cannabinoids (marijuana), benzodiazepines (tranquilizers), and amphetamines. The researchers then assessed the drivers' degree of culpability for the crashes. Overall, they found no increase in culpability for drivers showing cannabinoids alone compared to drug-free drivers. In contrast, there was a very strong relation between alcohol blood levels and accident culpability. The combination of marijuana with alcohol also showed strongly increased accident culpability. Benzodiazepines, but not amphetamines, also showed higher culpability. Another analysis of 1,052 fatal drivers in Australia suggested that marijuana is if anything associated with a decreased risk of accidents.

Similar results have been reported in other driving studies as well[16C]. It should be noted that these results may not apply to non-driving related situations, where forgetfulness or inattention can be more important than speed (this might explain the discrepancy in the Baltimore hospital study, which looked at accidents of all kinds).

Myth: Marijuana is a Dangerous Drug

Any discussion of marijuana should begin with the fact that there have been numerous official reports and studies, every one of which has concluded that marijuana poses no great risk to society and should not be criminalized. These include: the National Academy of Sciences' "Analysis of Marijuana Policy"(1982); the National Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse (the Shafer Report) (1973); the Canadian Government's Commission of Inquiry (Le Dain Report) (1970); the British Advisory Committee on Drug Dependency (Wooton Report) (1968); the La Guardia Report (1944); the Panama Canal Zone Military Investigations (1916-29); and Britain's monumental Indian Hemp Drugs Commission (1893-4).

It is sometimes claimed that there is "new evidence" showing marijuana is more harmful than was thought in the sixties. In fact, the most recent studies have tended to confirm marijuana's safety, refuting claims that it causes birth defects, brain damage, reduced testosterone, or increased drug abuse problems.

The current consensus is well stated in the 20th annual report of the California Research Advisory Panel (1990), which recommended that personal use and cultivation of marijuana be legalized: "An objective consideration of marijuana shows that it is responsible for less damage to society and the individual than are alcohol and cigarettes."

References: For an excellent summary of the true health facts about marijuana, see Lynn Zimmer and Dr. John Morgan, Marijuana Myths, Marijuana Facts: A Review of the Scientific Evidence (Lindesmith Center, NY, 1997). The National Academy of Sciences report, Marijuana and Health (National Academy Press, 1982) remains a good overview, its major conclusions remaining largely unaffected by two decades of research. Lovinger and Jones, The Marihuana Question (Dodd, Mead & Co., NY 1985) is the most exhaustive and fair-handed summary of the evidence against marijuana. Good, positive perspectives may be found in Lester Grinspoon's Marihuana, the Forbidden Medicine (Yale Press, 1993) and Marihuana Reconsidered (Harvard U. Press 1971), which debunks many of the older anti-pot myths.

Myth: Pot Kills Brain Cells

Government experts now admit that pot doesn't kill brain cells[29] This myth came from a handful of animal experiments in which structural changes (not actual cell death, as is often alleged) were observed in brain cells of animals exposed to high doses of pot. Many critics still cite the notorious monkey studies of Dr. Robert G. Heath, which purported to find brain damage in three monkeys that had been heavily dosed with cannabis[30] This work was never replicated and has since been discredited by a pair of better controlled, much larger monkey studies, one by Dr. William Slikker of the National Center for Toxicological Researc[31] and the other by Charles Rebert and Gordon Pryor of SRI International[32] Neither found any evidence of physical alteration in the brains of monkeys exposed to daily doses of pot for up to a year. Human studies of heavy users in Jamaica and Costa Rica found no evidence of abnormalities in brain physiology[33] A 15-year study of 1,318 chronic marijuana users by Johns Hopkins University found no evidence of long-term decline in mental function[34] Even though pot does not appear to cause permanent brain damage, users should be aware that persistent deficits in short-term memory have been noted in chronic, heavy marijuana smokers after 6 to 12 weeks of abstinence[35] It is worth noting that other drugs, including alcohol, are known to cause brain damage.

[/quote]/discussion

[audtatious]

I list up Gov't links among others and I'm called a fool for "listening to the same ppl that promote abstinence only sex-ed and other various exercises in idiocy" yet people post up a NORML site and think all the information is certifiabally correct? Event the information that might be correct is trumped elsewhere on the site. What a joke

[Qwerty1942]

um, I didn't post the link.

edit: but you're right the source he posted is NOT credible. See how easily I counter quoted him?

[audtatious]

It was a good try on his part but being a legalization site you know the majority of info will say it's harmless and the laws are simply "The Man" trying to keep a stoner down

[srellim234]

The point being that 58 studies are cited at that page. Mostly good for marijuana, but not all. It is presented in the context of favoring legalization marijuana and pulls info, including the quotes you pulled, to make the case for legalization. But those 58 studies are studies published and cited there in one location. NORML admits that some are showing that marijuana is not totally harmless and does kill. More research into ear, nose, throat cancer and bullous lung disease is needed.

[Qwerty1942]

like audtatious said, try again. you continue to support your dubious claim with illegitimate examples & sources.

[Amalric]

For it!

[Qwerty1942]

For it!

Welcome to NICO

[audtatious]

like audtatious said, try again. you continue to support your dubious claim with illegitimate examples & sources.

What exact claims has he made that is dubious? No, I have not read every reply. There are negative impacts with pot, the outstanding question is whether it is worse for society as a whole to make it legal or not.

[Qwerty1942]

he claims people die from pot.

[srellim234]

Here are your illegitimate examples and sources. Positive and negative.And, just to make sure, since you claim the ones cited are bogus, everything you've cited, quoted, etc. must be bogus, too. Apparently all one has to do to debunk anything is just not like the page that leads them to a scientific study published in a respected journal.

01] Michael R. Polen et al. "Health Care Use by Frequent Marijuana Smokers Who Do Not Smoke Tobacco," Western Journal of Medicine 158 #6: 596-601 (June 1993).

[02] Donald Tashkin, "Is Frequent Marijuana Smoking Hazardous To Health?" Western Journal of Medicine 158 #6: 635-7 (June 1993).

[03] D. Tashkin et al, "Effects of Habitual Use of Marijuana and/or Cocaine on the Lung," in Research Findings on Smoking of Abused Substances, NIDA Research Monograph 99 (1990).

[04] Paul Donald, "Advanced malignancy in the young marijuana smoker," Adv Exp Med Biol 288:33-56 (1991); FM Taylor, "Marijuana as a potential respiratory tract carcinogen," South Med Journal 81:1213-6 (1988).

[05] D. Tashkin, "Is Frequent Marijuana Smoking Hazardous To Health,?" op. cit.

[06] Contrary to what might be expected, waterpipes do not reduce the proportion of tars in marijuana smoke; the most promising alternative may be to "vaporize" the THC with devices that heat marijuana below the point of combustion. D. Gieringer, "Marijuana Waterpipe/Vaporizer Study," MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies) Newsletter, VI#3, 1996, pp. 59-66)

[07] D. Tashkin, "Respiratory Status of 74 Habitual Marijuana Smokers," Chest 78 #5: 699-706 (Nov. 1980).

[08] T-C. Wu, D. Tashkin, B. Djahed and J.E. Rose, "Pulmonary hazards of smoking marijuana as compared with tobacco," New England Journal of Medicine 318: 347-51 (1988).

[09] D. Tashkin et al, "Effects of Habitual Use of Marijuana and/or Cocaine on the Lung," loc.cit.

[10] Herbert Moskowitz, "Marihuana and Driving," Accident Analysis and Prevention 17#4: 323-45 (1985).

[11] Carl Soderstrom et al., "Marijuana and Alcohol Use Among 1023 Trauma Patients," Archives of Surgery, 123: 733-7 (1988).

[12] Dale Gieringer, "Marijuana, Driving, and Accident Safety," Journal of Psychoactive Drugs 20 (1): 93-101 (Jan-Mar 1988).

[13] H. Klonoff, "Marijuana and driving in real-life situations," Science 186: 317-24 (1974).

[14] K.W. Terhune et al., "The Incidence and Role of Drugs in Fatally Injured Drivers," NHTSA Report # DOT-HS-808-065 (1994).

[15] Hendrik Robbe and James O'Hanlon, "Marijuana and Actual Driving Performance," NHTSA Report #DOT-HS-808-078 (1994).

[16] Klonoff, loc. cit.; A. Smiley, "Marijuana: On-road and driving simulator studies," Alcohol, Drugs and Driving: Abstracts and Reviews 2#3-4: 15-30 (1986).

[16A] Olaf Drummer et al, 'The involvement of drugs in drivers of motor vehicles killed in Australian road traffic crashes," Accident Analysis and Prevention c (2004) 36(2):239-48.

[16B]C.E. Hunter, R.J. Lokan, M.C. Longo, J.M White and M.A. White, "The Prevalence and Role of Alcohol, Cannabinoids, Benzodiazepines and Stimulants in Non-Fatal Crashes." Forensic Science, Department for Administrative and Information Services, 21 Divett Place, Adelaide, South Australia 5000, May 1998.

[16C] A good summary is given in Michael Bates and Tony Blakely, "Role of Cannabis in Motor Vehicle Crashes," Epidemiological Reviews 21#2: 222-32 (1999).

[17] Frank Chaloupka and Adit Laixuthal, "Do Youths Substitute Alcohol and Marijuana? Some Empirical Evidence," Working Paper No. 4662, National Bureau of Economic Research, Cambridge Mass. (1994); K.E. Model, "The Effect of Marijuana Decriminalization on Hospital Emergency Room Episodes: 1975-8," Journal of the American Statistical Association, 88:423, 737-47; cited in Peter Passell, "Less Marijuana, More Alcohol?" New York Times June 17, 1992.

[18] Michael Dunham, "When the Smoke Clears," Reason March 1983 pp.33-6.

[19] Norman, Salyard and Mahoney, "An Evaluation of Preemployment Drug Testing," Journal of Applied Psychology 75(6) 629-39 (1990).

[20] Zwerling, Ryan and Orav, "Costs and Benefits of Preemployment Drug Screening," JAMA 267(1): 91-3 (1992).

[21] David Charles Parish, "Relation of the Pre-employment Drug Testing Result to Employment Status: A One-year Follow-up," Journal of General Internal Medicine 4:44-7 (1989).

[22] Dale Gieringer, "Urinalysis or Uromancy?" in Strategies for Change: New Directions in Drug Policy (Drug Policy Foundation, 1992); testimony of R.B. Stone in Hearings on the Airline and Rail Service Protection Act of 1987, Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation, Feb. 20, 1987.

[23] Gieringer, op. cit.; statistics reported in Federal Register Vol. 53 #224, Nov. 21, 1988 p. 47104.

[24] Alison Smiley, "Marijuana: On-Road and Driving Simulator Studies," Alcohol, Drugs, and Driving 2 #3-4: 121-34 (1986).

[25] V.O. Leirer, J.A. Yesavage and D.G. Morrow, "Marijuana Carry-Over Effects on Aircraft Pilot Performance," Aviation Space and Environmental Medicine 62: 221-7 (March 1991); Yesavage, Leirer, et al., "Carry-Over effects of marijuana intoxication on aircraft pilot performance: a preliminary report," American Journal of Psychiatry 142: 1325-9 (1985).

[26] Leirer, Yesavage and Morrow, "Marijuana, Aging and Task Difficulty Effects on Pilot Performance," Aviation Space and Environmental Medicine 60: 1145-52 (Dec. 1989).

[27] Yesavage and Leirer, "Hangover Effects on Aircraft Pilots 14 Hours After Alcohol Ingestion: A Preliminary Report," American Journal of Psychiatry 143: 1546-50 (Dec. 1986).

[28] John Morgan, "American Marijuana Potency: Data Versus Conventional Wisdom," NORML report (1994). See also T. Mikuriya and M. Aldrich, "Cannabis 1988: Old drug, new dangers, the potency question," Journal of Psychoactive Drugs 20:47-55.

[29] Dr. Christine Hartel, Acting Director of Research, National Institute of Drug Abuse, cited by the State of Hawaii Dept of Health, Alcohol and Drug Abuse Division in memo of Feb. 4, 1994.

[30] For an overview, see NAS Report, op. cit., pp. 81-2. R.G. Heath et al, "Cannabis sativa: effects on brain function and ultrastructure in Rhesus monkeys," Biol. Psychiatry 15: 657-90 (1980).

[31] William Slikker et al., "Chronic Marijuana Smoke Exposure in the Rhesus Monkey," Fundamental and Applied Toxicology 17: 321-32 (1991).

[32] Charles Rebert & Gordon Pryor - "Chronic Inhalation of Marijuana Smoke and Brain Electrophysiology of Rhesus Monkeys," International Journal of Psychophysiology V 14, p.144, 1993.

[33] NAS Report, pp. 82-7.

[34] American Journal of Epidemiology, May 1, 1999.

[35] "Cannabis and Memory Loss," (editorial) British Journal of Addiction 86: 249-52 (1991)

[36] Dr. Christine Hartel, loc. cit.

[37] NAS Report, pp. 94-9.

[38] Dr. Robert Block in Drug and Alcohol Dependence 28: 121-8 (1991).

[39]NAS Report, p. 97-8.

[40] NAS Report, p. 99.

[41] Dr. Susan Astley, "Analysis of Facial Shape in Children Gestationally Exposed to Marijuana, Alcohol, and/or Cocaine," Pediatrics 89#1: 67-77 ( June 1992).

[42] Dr. Barry Zuckerman et al. "Effects of Maternal Marijuana and Cocaine Use on Fetal Growth," New England Journal of Medicine 320 #12: 762-8 (March 23, 1989); Dr. Ralph Hingson et al., "Effects of maternal drinking and marijuana use on fetal growth and development," Pediatrics 70: 439-46 (1982).

[43] Nancy Day et al., "Prenatal Marijuana Use and Neonatal Outcome," Neurotoxicology and Teratology 13: 329-34 (1992).

[44] Janice Hayes, Melanie Dreher and J. Kevin Nugent, "Newborn Outcomes With Maternal Marihuana Use in Jamaican Women," Pediatric Nursing 14 #2: 107-10 (Mar-Apr. 1988).

[45] NAS Report, pp. 66-67.

[45A] Murray Mittelman, article inCirculation June 12, 2001; cited in Science News 160:31, Jul. 14, 2001.

[46] Dr. Leo Hollister, "Marijuana and Immunity," Journal of Psychoactive Drugs 20(1): 3-8 (Jan/Mar 1988).

[47] Sean Munro, Kerrie Thomas and Muna Abu-Shaar, "Molecular characterization of a peripheral receptor for cannabinoids," Nature 365:61-5 (Sept. 2, 1993) ; Leslie Iversen, "Medical Uses of Marijuana?", ibid. pp. 12-3.

[48] D. Tashkin, "Is Frequent Marijuana Smoking Hazardous To Health,?" op. cit.

[49] Nicholas Cozzi, ibid.

[50] Donald Tashkin et al., "Cannabis 1977," Ann. Intern. Med. 89:539-49 (1978).

[51] Richard A Kaslow et al, "No Evidence for a Role of Alcohol or Other Psychoactive Drugs in Accelerating Immunodeficiency in HIV-1-Positive Individuals," JAMA 261:3424-9 (June 16, 1989).

[52] NAS Report, p. 101.

[53] "Survey: Hawaii war on pot pushed users to 'ice,'" Honolulu Advertiser, April 1, 1994 p. 1.

[54] "Marijuana and Medicine: Assessing the Science Base," Institute of Medicine, National Academy Press (1999) pp 3.22-23

[55] S. Andreasson et al, "Cannabis and Schizophrenia: A Longitudinal Study of Swedish Conscripts," Lancet 2: 1483-6 (1986).

[56]"An inquiry into the public health strategies related to cannabis use and the most appropriate legal status," New Zealand Parliament, August 2003, p. 17 http://www.clerk.parliament.go...c.pdf

[57] Three articles with such findings were published in British Medical Journal, 325 (23 Nov. 2002)

[58] K.T. Mueser et al, "Prevalence of Substance Abuse in Schizophrenic Demographis and Clinical Correlates," Schizophrenia Bulletin 16: 31-56 (1990); R. Warner et al., "Substance Use Among the Mentally Ill: Prevalence, Reasons for Use, and Effects on Illness," American Journal of Orthopsychiatry 64: 30-39 (1994).

[Ilvemynissan]

For it!

Haha nice 1st post!

[Qwerty1942]

srellim234 post more dubious sources.

[rn79870]

dude he's from england, nuff said.

Last time I checked, they were making the same model of human beings over there.

You really can't have it both ways. You ask for ANY evidence of a single death due to mj, I give you more than one, and you claim that it doesn't count because the doctor is in England.

[Qwerty1942]

Last time I checked, they were making the same model of human beings over there.

You really can't have it both ways. You ask for ANY evidence of a single death due to mj, I give you more than one, and you claim that it doesn't count because the doctor is in England.

no, I've asked for legitimate evidence, and you just give me an anecdotal example. I'm not going to take the word of some coroner, who did not even conduct a study but more like just speculated.

my comment about his nationality was a joke, I know many sas englishmen who are good friends of mine.

[rn79870]

We have provided that mj is dangerous. We've offered evidence including the findings of a medical professional who has examined deceased persons and diagnosed that their death was due to marijuana use.

You don't have to accept it, but you can't dismiss it.

[Qwerty1942]

We have provided that mj is dangerous.

No, you haven't.

We've offered evidence including the findings of a medical professional who has examined deceased persons and diagnosed that their death was due to marijuana use.

Do you know what "anecdotal" means?

You don't have to accept it, but you can't dismiss it.

This is just one of the many critical comments that were left on the article you provided:

Quote »(41) asdf says:

ok here if you have died from weed you are just stupid and you definitely win the darwin award -congrats- i mean as much as it is used in this argument it holds a valid point ciggs and alchohol are so much worse for you then marijuana both physicly and mentally i mean alchohol is rated up there as being as addictive as heroine if marijuana were to be legal it is said it would bring in annually 7 billion dollars hmm dont you think that then educational and health providers and even harder drug control agencies could use that money?

i mean tax payers you are messing up almost getting screwed. we pay all this money in taxes that go toward the war on drugs and as far as marujuana goes it has been a total failiure and is just a waste of money. marijuana is still the united states biggest cash crop and will always be. you say that big companies will get involved and add addictive subsstances into it but why not keep it like it is and have regular people grow it for the state like medical providers do.

ultimatly you get clean people to do it and hey its another job that may be needed for families. you say that kids become dumber well i know kids with varying gpa’s that all smoke marijuana. show me the proof!!!!!!! they have done studies showing that long time and short time use have almost no effect on the mind and body. ok think of this maybe ur kid is just a freakin idiot and thats why he can not seem to pass a damn class.

think of this when al capone tried selling alcholhol illegaly what happened? he got alot of money and got other people to catch on to his crimes. what happened when alchohol became legal? he lost his buisness lost money and crime ultimatly went down. do we have any alchohol dealers today? no, but we do have marijuana dealers the kind of people all you soccer moms complain about being in ur neighbor hood but yet you refuse to fix the issue by legalizing marijuana. now the same thing would happen drug dealers wont make any money there will be less crime and to satisfy all the soccer moms the neighbor hood will be less “dirty.”

you have all heard the death ratio on other drugs compared to weed so i wont bore you with it but i mean 0 deaths i mean religion kills more people for gods sakes should we not make church and religion illegal? i mean hell id get killed faster in a religios debate over smoking a joint every once in a while.

my sister went into a AA meating where there are drug addicts as well with my alchoholic step mom ( another long story of the differace of alchohol and weed lol) and when she announce that she was there for weed the councilor just laughed and said "honey thats not a real drug" lol[/quote]He has many great points. I absolutely agree with him.

[audtatious]

he claims people die from pot.

If someone gets high and drives off a cliff they are dead. If someone gets high and forgets to NOT get out of the car in a bad section of town they can be dead. If someone gets high and has an allergic reaction they can die. If someone hits it all the time and gets majorly depressed they could commit suicide.

See, it's possible that people can die from pot.

[audtatious]

srellim234 post more dubious sources.

He's quoting sources so unless you read each one and have a counter then how can you call them dubious? Simply because they may not agree with your position? Sounds similar to the Global Warming alarmists to me

[Qwerty1942]

lol @ how this discussion morphed from "mj smokers can die from the smoke just like with cigs" to "anyone can die from a freak accident while on marijuana."

It can't be argued that mj brings on life threatening illnesses (i.e. cancer) so detractors have to try another angle

People can die from anything if you think hard enough.
Modified by Qwerty1942 at 7:03 PM 8/24/2008

[rn79870]

Here Qwerty, do you not agree with the National Institute of Health report?

Long-term marijuana abuse can lead to addiction; that is, compulsive drug seeking and abuse despite its known harmful effects upon social functioning in the context of family, school, work, and recreational activities. Long-term marijuana abusers trying to quit report irritability, sleeplessness, decreased appetite, anxiety, and drug craving, all of which make it difficult to quit. These withdrawal symptoms begin within about 1 day following abstinence, peak at 2–3 days, and subside within 1 or 2 weeks following drug cessation.5

So, According to the National Institute for Health, it is addictive...IS that what you'd call harmless?

AlsoA number of studies have shown an association between chronic marijuana use and increased rates of anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation, and schizophrenia. Some of these studies have shown age at first use to be a factor, where early use is a marker of vulnerability to later problems. However, at this time, it not clear whether marijuana use causes mental problems, exacerbates them, or is used in attempt to self-medicate symptoms already in existence. Chronic marijuana use, especially in a very young person, may also be a marker of risk for mental illnesses, including addiction, stemming from genetic or environmental vulnerabilities, such as early exposure to stress or violence. At the present time, the strongest evidence links marijuana use and schizophrenia and/or related disorders6. High doses of marijuana can produce an acute psychotic reaction, and research suggests that in vulnerable individuals, marijuana use may be a factor that increases risk for the disease.

According to the National Institute of heath, it either causes, exacerbates or complements mental illness... That's not harmful either.

What about your heart...

One study found that an abuser’s risk of heart attack more than quadruples in the first hour after smoking marijuana.7 The researchers suggest that such an outcome might occur from marijuana’s effects on blood pressure and heart rate (it increases both) and reduced oxygen-carrying capacity of blood.

Heart attacks being caused by smoking mj? Or at least a 4 times greater risk of one. Still sound safe?

What about the lungs...Numerous studies have shown marijuana smoke to contain carcinogens and to be an irritant to the lungs. In fact, marijuana smoke contains 50 to 70 percent more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than tobacco smoke. Marijuana users usually inhale more deeply and hold their breath longer than tobacco smokers do, which further increases the lungs’ exposure to carcinogenic smoke. Marijuana smokers show dysregulated growth of epithelial cells in their lung tissue, which could lead to cancer;8 however, a recent case-controlled study found no positive associations between marijuana use and lung, upper respiratory, or upper digestive tract cancers.9 Thus, the link between marijuana smoking and these cancers remains unsubstantiated at this time.

Half positive, half negative. Is it worth gamb|ing that the answer ends up being safe instead of dangerous?

What about the every day effect?

Research clearly demonstrates that marijuana has the potential to cause problems in daily life or make a person’s existing problems worse. In one study, heavy marijuana abusers reported that the drug impaired several important measures of life achievement including physical and mental health, cognitive abilities, social life, and career status.11 Several studies associate workers’ marijuana smoking with increased absences, tardiness, accidents, workers’ compensation claims, and job turnover.

Translated, it makes the users slow, and less capable of using their mental facilities. Still think it's a good idea to legalize it?

http://www.nida.nih.gov/infofacts/marijuana.html

Are we going to toss out this information too simply because it doesn't agree with the pro pot web sites?

[audtatious]

lol @ how this discussion morphed from "mj smokers can die from the smoke just like with cigs" to "anyone can die from a freak accident while on marijuana."

It can't be argued that mj brings on life threatening illnesses (i.e. cancer) so detractors have to try another angle

People can die from anything if you think hard enough.

Modified by Qwerty1942 at 7:03 PM 8/24/2008

I've never stated the above. I've simply said it's not some wonder drug. I do find it comical that I know lots of people who are anti-smokers yet they smoke pot all the time. Seems hypocritical.

[srellim234]

Interesting in that I never said it either. The pot defenders fixated on lung cancer as being the only possible cause of death by themselves early in the discussion. My focus was on cardio pulmonary function and other possible problems.

The Kaiser study is an interesting read if you take the time to read all the way through the presentation.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.g...dex=1

This presentation is based only on the pilot part of the study; preliminary support in some areas about marijuana but incriminating about it in others. The main body of the long term study is still in progress. The final result will contain results including mortality, a portion of the study that was not included in the pilot. QWERTY has already made it clear, though, that he knows the results of this study before it's even been completed. It's impossible for any connection to cardio-pulmonary deaths, cancer of the mouth, larynx or esophagus, or any other connection of marijuana to death to be found by scientists because QWERTY says so.

I refuse to live in an educational vacuum. Studies are ongoing. Learning about it is ongoing. More studies are needed. New uses and new hazards are being identified. Same thing happened with tobacco use a long time ago. Could it be that the most adamant of the marijuana supporters here are afraid of what might be discovered?

[audtatious]

They don't care. They just want it legalized so they can supposedly get it cheaper and not have to worry about cops or drug tests. Sorry, if I were an employer I would not want someone who may come in high working for me. Same as I would fire someone coming in drunk.

[themadscientist]

That's why you need the office linebacker.

[audtatious]

Is Mr Tate available?

[szh]

Folks, this thread does not seem to be going anywhere ... we have argued it to death.

Clearly, neither side is going to convince the other. It is going to come down to what you want to do to your body. I choose not to introduce what I believe are toxins and smoke into mine, others can do what they want - as long as they do not put me in a position to deal with the side effects (no second-hand smoke - I remember what happened to me in my fraternity in college, no DUI-like car accidents, no use on the job, etc.).

Let's move on ...

Z