Another Iraq thread... don't read it if politics offend you!

[MaineExport]

Sorry this is so long, sorry to start another thread on this topic, but all the others are closed down (maybe I should take the hint!).

Anyway... this was written by an F-16 pilot, and although I already agree with most of it... it helped set my mind at ease on a few things.... read it if you want. I think it is pretty informative and worth it no matter how you feel about the war. Regardless, I felt compelled to share... for better or worse:

"I'll just warn you--this is a long email. I received it from a friend whose husband emailed it to her from somewhere in Saudi Arabia. She doesn't know exactly where he--and his F16--is and she doesn't expect him home anytime soon. I do know it was written pretty recently by one of our military members who is "on hold."

Anyway, the following is a long article, but it's well written, so I'll send it along.

"Hi everybody:This is a valuable piece and I hope you will read it.* If you support President Bush and our Nation's military, please read and forward on to everyone you know, regardless of their stance on the "war".

People need to become informed.* If you do not support the President and our military and are Anti-War, please read, then read it again. Eventually it will make sense to you. Read a third time if necessary."

THE T-BONE MANIFESTO

I've been deployed to Turkey for about 3 months now and am told I will be here "indefinitely." We aren't flying much and there isn't a whole lot else to do right now, so I get to keep up with the news pretty well on satellite TV. This weekend, I was shocked, and frankly pretty annoyed, to see millions of people around the world protesting potential war in Iraq. Don't get me wrong; I don't disagree with anyone's right to do that. In fact, I encourage it if that is what they truly believe. It is just clear to me based on the ridiculous comments they made to reporters and the carnival atmosphere of the marches that these people have no idea what the actual facts of the matter are. If they knew the facts, I believe many would feel differently. Since there are probably some of "those people" among you and you apparently weren't swayed in the face of Colin Powell's evidence, let me present my perspective to you.

Many people out there think that we should just give the inspectors more time, that war should be the last resort. I agree with you--war should be the last resort. Trust me, it's my pink body on the line, not yours. The problem with the "more time" argument is that people are only taking into account the last three months of inspections. Do you realize that there have been UN inspections for a total of 9 out of the last 12 years? That's right, there have NOT been three months of inspections. There have been NINE YEARS of inspections. Do you really think they are working? They haven't turned anything up, but do you really, honestly believe that the Iraqis are not hiding anything? Do you really, honestly believe that inspections will find what they are hiding? How many YEARS of inspections would it take to satisfy you? I think nine is more than enough.

Based on Powell's speech alone, even an skeptic can see that the Iraqis know ahead of time where the inspectors are going and clean those sites out before the inspectors get there. We know for sure, FOR SURE, that the Iraqis have chemical and biological weapons. No question. The Iraqis continue to claim they don't have them. The inspections have not found them. "Then how could we know that and why won't the government 'prove' it to me," you ask. Intelligence is the answer. The reason you can't know HOW we know is that the way we know that would then be given up. We need the WAY we know that to be secret because we need those sources to continue to provide information so we can DESTROY the chem/bio weapons. In a purely theoretical example, if we bugged a conference room where the Iraqi generals discussed where they were moving their weapons and we told the world of the conversations we overheard there, the Iraqis are not stupid enough to keep talking in that conference room! We no longer have that information coming in. We may not be able to use that info to go destroy the chem/bio weapons. Since that is the REAL GOAL, it is far more important to accomplish that than to convince you. Intelligence is a simple thing to counter if the bad guys know how you are getting your information. The trick is keeping them from knowing your sources and methods. Therefore, the "good stuff" can't exactly be broadcast on the evening news just to satisfy you.

Many out there believe that the Iraqis MAY have chem/bio weapons, but don't really care because "they are only for self-defense. They wouldn't actually use them." Let me tell you about the Iraqis and chemical weapons. Saddam Hussein took power in 1979. In 1980, Iraq invaded its eastern neighbor, Iran. The resulting Iran-Iraq war lasted for eight years. Iraq started it. They invaded Iran and then used chemical weapons to kill thousands of Iranian troops. They used chemical weapons against Iranian villages and civilians. Oh yeah, the soldiers he captured in that war became medical guinea pigs for chem/bio experiments. They all died as well. (Let's see, who else in history has used humans as guinea pigs for chemical weapons experiments? You can figure that one out, I digress.) "Well, that was war" you say. In 1988, Iraq ordered chemical weapons used against a Kurdish village (all civilians) in northern Iraq. FIVE THOUSAND people died, SEVEN THOUSAND were wounded. For reference, note that 3500 were killed in the WTC attacks. In 1991, after the end of the Gulf War, Saddam Hussein ordered Iraqi troops to use chemical weapons against another Kurdish village in northern Iraq. He killed everyone in that village--3000 people. The Kurds were all civilians. They were all IRAQI CITIZENS. Saddam killed them because of ETHNIC HATRED. Think of the Kurds kind of like the Gypsies in Italy. The Turks, Iraqis, and Iranians all hate the Kurds. But let me say that again, he KILLED them because of ETHNIC HATRED. Women, children, old people. (once again, sound familiar in history?) He doesn't care.

"Well," you say, "Iraq has been oppressed by sanctions since the Gulf War. Its people are starving. It's only natural for them to try to break free from these oppressive resolutions." (Once again, sound familiar in history?) Let me tell you about that. The UN authorized the Oil for Food Program after the Gulf War that would allow Iraq to sell oil to get money for food and medicine for its people while economic embargos remained in place to force Iraq to disarm. International aid organizations have been sending food and medicine for years. Much of it is taken and immediately sold on the black market for cash. That cash is used to buy items (mostly weapons) prohibited in the Gulf War cease fire agreement. Most of the rest sits in warehouses in Baghdad, undistributed to the Iraqi people. The Iraqi government refuses to hand it out because they want to be able to blame the plight of their people on the US. If the people see that the US is sending them food and medicine, that ruins the argument. Much of the money Iraq was supposed to use to buy food was diverted directly to Saddam Hussein himself. Since the Gulf War, Saddam has built himself forty palaces. That's right, FORTY PALACES! These are not just big houses. The total landmass of Saddam's new palaces totals about NINE SQUARE MILES! The palaces are filled with marble and gold and plenty of portraits of Saddam. Meanwhile, his people starve and he doesn't care.

"We should be focusing on Al Qaeda,” you say. "They are the real threat to us." Well Al Qaeda has strong ties with the Iraqi government (you're going to have to trust me on that) and Iraq is a haven for Al Qaeda leaders. Al Qaeda SEEKS chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons. Iraq HAS chemical, biological, and IS DEVELOPING nuclear weapons. They are now friends. It doesn't take an Einstein to do the math here. Everyone wants to see a smoking gun. You idiots! If there is a smoking gun, it is too late. The gun has gone off. The smoke will be dead bodies. What do you want, pictures of Saddam playing golf with Osama? After Sept 11th, everyone asked why we couldn't piece it all together beforehand. Why couldn't the government see it coming? What do you think the "smoking gun" would have been back then? Some guys took flying lessons? Some guys got on airplanes with box cutters? Before the actual hijacking, there was not "proof" of anything! Would anyone have supported invading Afghanistan and rooting out Al Qaeda based on that? NO WAY. The smoking gun, well, you know that by now.

"Exhaust diplomacy,” you say. First of all, there has been TWELVE YEARS of diplomacy to try to make Iraq disarm. Did you know that Iraq has not fully complied with a single UN resolution in the last twelve years? That's right, not just this stuff about the inspectors. ALL SEVENTEEN resolutions have been ignored. Do you honestly believe that anything we do diplomatically will convince Saddam to disarm? DO YOU? He is only interested in staying in power and is playing the game well to keep himself there. We have tried talking to the him. We have tried economic and trade sanctions. We have tried military action. We have tried no fly zones. We have tried inspections. What else do you suggest? Maybe if we just say "pretty please" he'll comply. We've tried everything else.

"Don't act unilaterally,” you say. Last time I checked that word means "by yourself." In case anyone hasn't noticed, France and Germany are the only allies NOT on board. The rest of NATO IS on board. The rest of Europe IS on board. Australia IS on board. Poland, the Czech Republic, Egypt, Bulgaria, Latvia, the Netherlands are ALL on board. Over FORTY COUNTRIES have offered military assistance of some sort. Even Jordan, an ally of Iraq, has offered assistance. I'm not quite sure how that translates into unilateralism. Several countries have already deployed forces to take part in any potential military action. This is not the first time the French have balked at striking out at terrorism. In 1986 there were several terrorlst attacks across the globe including the bombing of a Pan Am flight over Lockerbie, Scotland. Several of the attacks had been in France, including a nightclub bombing that killed many American servicemen. US intelligence pinpointed the source of the terrorlst attacks as Libya. In response, President Reagan ordered military air strikes on terrorlst camps inside Libya. Some of the fighters were to launch out of bases in England. Reagan called then French President Francois Mitterand just to ask permission for our fighters to overfly France on the way to Libya. To go around France meant a 16-hour round trip flight for the pilots. Mitterand refused, despite several of the terrorlst attacks having happened INSIDE FRANCE. He then had the gall to tell Reagan: "Don't let it be just a pinprick (the air strikes). Really let them have it." The French of all people should know the consequences of inaction. Wishful thinking has cost them their country twice in the last eighty years.

The problem with the anti-war activists is that THEY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. They don't know any of the FACTS about Iraq and what has happened there. They have paid no attention to the last twelve years and cannot tell you the contents of a single UN resolution. They cannot tell you the names of the military operations that support those resolutions. They would be shocked to know that Americans get shot at virtually EVERY DAY enforcing those resolutions. They have no idea about the sacrifice America has been willing to make for those resolutions to work. They would know it if they ever decided to pay attention. They would know it if they sought out the actual facts. It's in the newspaper every day. It's on the news every night. But they have no idea about the real situation in Iraq. They don't care either. They just want to sit around the coffee house and complain that the government couldn't keep them safe on Sept 11 and then complain when the government now leans forward to keep them safe in a post Sept 11th world. If we don't do something, there WILL be another Sept 11th and it will be ugly. There may be one regardless of what happens in Iraq, but that can't keep us from acting on this. There are people out there that want to attack us with weapons of mass destruction. There is no way to stop every terrorlst attack. There just isn't. But we HAVE TO stop the terrorists from getting chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons. We can't afford to look back one day and realize we could have cut them off at the source.

The problem really is wishful thinking. Everyone (including Bush, including me, including anyone else who would bleed in war) wishes there will be no war. We hope there is another way. That is just wishful thinking. Sometimes there is no choice. Sometimes it has to get ugly for the greater good. Look at history for a guide. I've alluded to it several times already. In case you haven't figured out my historical comparison to Hussein, it's Hitler. In the mid-1930s, Hitler began to rearm Germany in violation of the Treaty of Versailles. The League of Nations said "stop." Hitler said "okay" but kept on arming. The League of Nations said "stop" again, but Hitler ignored them. Then Hitler invaded Poland. The world community said "hey, don't do that." Hitler said "if you give me this and this and that, I'll stop. The world said "okay, whatever you want. Anything is better than war. Just stop." It was called “Appeasement." We know what happened next. It was the worst example of diplomacy in history. That mistake cost the world MILLIONS OF LIVES. World War II could have been stopped cold before it started simply by standing up to the bully. Everyone was so afraid of war that they let Hitler get away with whatever he wanted. They gave him an inch and he took a mile. No one stopped him, so he kept on going. Sound familiar? I'm not suggesting that Saddam Hussein will start invading his neighbors again and take over the Middle East. Note the "again" part--he's already invaded two of his neighbors and set himself up to invade a third before we stopped him in 1990. However, if he gets a nuclear weapon or if he gets long range missiles to deliver chemical weapons, he will be the biggest menace the world has ever known. He will be able to wipe countries off the face of the earth with one button and will blackmail the world to get what he wants. Will everyone be so afraid of war then that they'll give him whatever he wants? If the United Nations does not have the backbone to support it's own resolutions and ensure compliance, then it will go the way of the League of Nations. Why would anyone ever comply with Security Council resolutions if there are no consequences for non-compliance? Do you want to live in that world?

"I just don't trust Bush," you say. Why is everyone so willing to trust the Iraqis and so unwilling to trust our own American leaders? The Iraqis say they don't have anything. They say the aluminum tubes are not for nuclear purposes, despite all the evidence. They say they forgot exactly how they destroyed thousands of gallons of Vx nerve gas and anthrax, but "trust us, we destroyed them way back in 1991." And so many people say "didn't you hear that? They said they didn't have any. Everyone pack up and go home now. We're safe. They SAID so." WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH THESE PEOPLE? Why does everyone want so badly to believe a man and a regime that has invaded and gassed it's neighbors, gassed it's own people, has ties to and harbors terrorlst groups, defies EVERY SINGLE UN RESOLUTION against it, tortures political foes, let's its own children starve ON PURPOSE, and has ahistory of pathological lying on almost every matter? Are you so cynical about the American government that you would trust the Iraqis before you would trust us? You may not like our leaders. Fine, vote them out if you feel that way. But how can you honestly stand there and believe that the IRAQIS are telling the TRUTH and OUR leaders are LYING to you? Many people say this is about oil. Those people embarrass themselves. They have no grasp of the facts. They have nothing to say, so they blame it on oil. This has nothing to do with oil. Our leaders are not evil. This is not a conspiracy to boost their friends' bank accounts. We do not boost our economy by paying for it with American lives. Anyone who thinks that hasn't really thought about this at all.

I don't want a war. Trust me I don't. I want Saddam Hussein to go into exile and live out his days in Argentina or Paraguay or wherever evil dictators go to live. I want that more than anything. But when he doesn't leave, I will be on the front edge of the charge across that country. Because I know the facts, I am comfortable with that. I know the risks and I will take them because I know the consequences if I do not. I am glad that Americans don't take war lightly. They shouldn't. But before marching and protesting and singing their songs, why don't they actually look at the facts? Let me tell you, it was a big morale killer this weekend to see all those people running around with poster board signs and singing hippie songs when I knew that not one of them had any idea what they were talking about. I don't want blind patriotism. That doesn't help anyone. What I do expect is that any American who feels strongly enough to try to influence foreign policy, which--let's face it--is the goal of demonstrations, would actually have a clue about the subject they are trying to protest.

Right now there are 150,000 of your fellow Americans in the middle east and another 100,000 on the way. If we get the call, we will steamroll across that country like the world has never seen. Civilian casulties will be painstakingly avoided, but there will be no mercy on the Iraqi leaders or its military. It will be an overwhelmingly violent campaign. It has to be for the greater good. The quicker the war, the fewer overall casualties occur. History has taught us that, too. How will you feel when you hear the news that the war has begun? Will you be angry because you feel it is out-of-control American imperialism? Will you feel bad for the Iraqi people (who, by the way, are about to become free for the first time)? Or will you feel a mix of pride and sadness for the Americans--pride that Americans are risking their lives to protect you and sadness because some will not come back? I frankly don't care how you feel. I'll do my job either way. But don't you owe it to yourself to know the truth about the world around you? You don't see American troops deserting and running to Canada do you? There are a lot of your fellow Americans that feel strongly enough about this to risk their lives for this cause. Maybe they are on to something.

T-BONE"

[lessthanjakejohn]

good post, lol by the way, how could "politics" offend someone?

[MaineExport]

"politics" offend someone?

Good question.... but there has been some griping amongst the masses to 'STOP' the political threads... I guess the argumet could be made that it divides the community... but I think it brings people together whether they agree with each other or not.

[lessthanjakejohn]

Also, another note on oil, Each bomb we drop costs thousands and some even a million or so dollars, This War is projected to cost like a trillion dollars?, well maybe on 10s of billions, But anyway it doesn't really matter, because it is cheaper to buy the oil from saddam then to Spend billions of dollars and get people killed . The cost may be a con to the war but I'm sure the end benefit will not be.

[sultan]

back on subject of oil, in the most recent car and driver it says only 12 percent of our total consumption comes from the Middle East, and only 45 percent of crude is used to make gas, and most of the middle eastern oil is from saudi arabia, second is Iraq. article in mag is pointing out the facts ignored in the "drive an SUV, fund a terrorlst!" ads.

[lessthanjakejohn]

Did anyone see bush's press confeerence?

[MaineExport]

Did anyone see bush's press confeerence?

yup... the first time I've seen him speak without a written speech(since the election)... he fielded questions better than I thought he would... and I'm a supporter!!

[lessthanjakejohn]

Quote »yup... the first time I've seen him speak without a written speech(since the election)... he fielded questions better than I thought he would... and I'm a supporter!![/quote]

everything he said was probaly thought about weeks before, He and his aids probaly made question after question about dif things that people would ask. He probaly looked them over a ton. I guess your right though because it was not a set, written speech.

[themadscientist]

I will state it as breifly as I can then not return to this thread because this is not something I wish to "discuss" with a nineteen year old misguided punk who has never served his country and never will, has no concept of honor or duty and simply refuses to understand that there are evil people in the world and there is one way to deal with them.

whether you agree with the war that is going to occur in mere weeks or not, you are entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to question your government in a public forum and have your opinion heard. Those people over there in uniform are there for you, they do not make foreign policy they enforce it. They are sons and daughters, fathers and mothers, our neighbors and they are about to put their lives on the line for us. I applaude the President for breaking the cycle of wishy washy leadership and saying "no more" I am starting to tear up as I write this, I am so proud of this country and the majority of her people at this moment I can't handle it. The world needs a wake up call and they are about to get it whether they want it or not, we are going to give it to them and that takes balls. I thank our allies who are strong enough to stand with us and I hope that the valiant servicemen and women come home safe and the Iraqi people are liberated with a minimal amout of bloodshed. I have one request for the antiwar people;When the shooting starts you need to shut up and stand united with your fellow Americans and support our troops. No more Hippie songs and parades of idiots who want to send Saddam an FTD gift basket. If you know somebody who has a family member in the gulf you had better give them a hug or shake their hand or do something to show them that even though you disagree with the situation your thoughts and prayers are with their family in this time of war.That's all I'm saying on the matter.

[TrueSlide]

:patriot

Well, that post has completley changed my opinion. After reading that I have begun to transform and open my eyes, and turn away from the misguiding media(damn them) and see what its all about. $hit(about time). I really don't have much too say, but lets kick sadaams A$$.

Basically my only words are for the ppl against the war. Even though you dont support the president, support our soliders!!! They are going in(without choice and retaliation) to serve, live or die for us, you, the country, the heritage and the future. And think they are willing to die(and all have that chance) and they all have families, loved ones and their own lives, but they are all willing to give that away for YOU, the country and the future!!! The shows dedication, patrioism and honor to a degree I cannot even begin to explain!!!

God Bless America, our soliders and the supporting soldiers from other countries that are willing to make that sacrafice!!!!

[AZhitman]

Once again, Maine, well done.

TMS, as always, I loved your post - I share your concerns and your stance. Well said.

As I grow older, I prepare myself to wrestle with my greatest regret - That of not being able to serve my country in the armed forces. As many of you know, I was heavily recruited from college by the USAF. I scored in the 99th percentile nationally on both the ASVAB (sp?) and OQT. My father was a decorated vet of the Korean war and my uncle an Admiral during WWII and Korea. I failed my physical based upon my eyesight (I'm legally blind but 20/20 with lenses) and because of a congenital heart defect (which has since been corrected).

Every time I see one of our best and boldest in uniform I feel sad that I am not one of their brothers, and I try to do my best in my chosen profession to make a similar difference.

Be advised that this does not stop with a solitary Iraqi dictator. This will be for the long haul, and we are living in interesting times indeed. There are oppressive regimes worldwide, and countries who do not honor or value life or liberty or the freedom to worship, think and speak. We have nothing against their people, but those who would suppress the voice of liberty - these are our enemies.

Props to our servicemen and women. May God guide our leaders to do His will and place a hedge of protection around our brothers and sisters in uniform.

:patriot

[MaineExport]

Good to have you back Hitman!

I often felt the same way about serving in the military. My physical and mental capacities would be more than adequate.... but my emotional place in life has often led me away from that path. I also think of my mother. She supports my brother's decision to join the USAF, but she is petrified to think about losing a son... even in the most honorable way imaginable. I would hate to think about the effect of BOTH of us being in that position... she'd freak out I'm sure.

Two of my three grandfathers (long story) served in WWII., One has since passed on, but if you could have seen the look of pride in my grandfather's eyes on the day of my brother's commissioning ceremony... this from a man who survived Iwogima ... crawling across the dead bodies of his friends. It is something that those who have never seen combat can understand... just how much we do have to fight for, and how vital it is that we take our freedom seriously.

[Movingviolation240]

Right now there are 150,000 of your fellow Americans in the middle east and another 100,000 on the way. If we get the call, we will steamroll across that country like the world has never seen. Civilian casulties will be painstakingly avoided, but there will be no mercy on the Iraqi leaders or its military.

Like I've been saying, send in those 'extra inspectors'

The difference between Sadam and Osama is Sadam has weapons of mass distruction and he's actually used them on civilians, what more reason do we need to go in and get rid of him?

Paul

[AZhitman]

Glad to be back - Thanks brotha!

Oftentimes when I hear an old vet recount his experiences in war or watch shows that depict the horror and hell of armed combat I wonder if I have that inside me which makes those men and women keep fighting. I'd like to think I would be as brave as they are/were.

This rings very true to a philosophy I employ in my job, with my spouse, my kids, those who work for me, etc.: Right or wrong, I will defend your statements and actions in a public forum. I trust you to make good decisions and act in a manner that reflects your good judgement and my leadership (as a parent/boss/head-of-household/friend). Behind closed doors, however, if you are wrong, or handle a situation in a less-than-appropriate manner, I will call you on it. I feel the same way about my country.

:patriot

[VimyJ]

Time seems to be on all minds regarding the Iraq situation. Some say time has run out. Some say give more time for inspections.

The US says that since twelve years has elapsed since the original resolutions of disarmament of Iraq that no more time should be given. Time is, indeed, the enemy of the US position. Thousands of troops have been shipped out to staging points and there sit in the sand waiting for the order to invade. Amongst those thousands are reservists with lives on hold. Babies are being born without their fathers' present. This has to hurt morale.

Some say that time should be given to let the inspections continue. Undoubtedly, Iraq, given its track record, will drag its heels as much as it can in order to create friction within the Security Council. It should be noted that the nations that oppose a rush to war do not have time pressures as an impetus to action. This, however, cannot be said about the current US administration.

The current administration has definite time pressures on it and they are not only the pressures of having an army sitting idle in the field. The main time pressure is that of an election. The clock ticks and the days pass and an election comes closer and closer. Some would say that there is no connection between W's timing of all this and his seeking of a second term in order to persue his conservative agenda. How could one possibly believe that a war would not have an affect upon an election? W knows it and so should every US voter and every concerned person in the world.

This can be the only true pressure to persue war because there has been ("and you'll have to trust me on this") no link between Iraq and Al Qaeda. None. No evidence provided by the prisoners in Camp X in Cuba that can link Bin Laden and Saddam. No evidence presented at the UN. Nothing but assertions that we must trust people who say there are connections though there is no proof. If one accepts there is no connection, then that smashes W's argument of self defence as a justification for war which was the main message of his remarks last night.

W's whole premise for war is the protection and defence of the United States (BTW, why can't W say "United States", the nation's actual name, but instead insists upon calling it "Amurica"? They might have to change the name plate at the UN) but that link between Saddam and terrorlst groups that pose a risk to the US has not been established. It can be argued that lauching a war on an Arab state would endanger the safety of the US economically, diplomatically, increase the likelihood of terrorlst acts at home and abroad and drive rivals such as Bin Laden and Saddam together to fight a common foe. It can also be argued that a war would would cause patriotic US voters to back W for another term. Since there is no justification for a war of self defence what do you think the real reasons are behind an invasion of Iraq?

The readers should realize that I hate hippies and I have heard a lot of claptrap about how war should be banned, sing "Kumbiya", etc. I also come from a proud military family.

W is taking the current balance of power in congress and running with it for the purpose of bankrupting the federal gov't, furthering the GOP agenda and gaining control of the world supply of oil.

This all neatly explains why W & Co. can't wait for a few months for inspections to run their course. Timing is everything.

PS For the sake of all involved here, please keep partisan outrage to this post contained to logical argument and refrain from character assasination and personal attacks.

[AZhitman]

No outrage to be heard from the so-called "gentleman" from the Grand Canyon State.

While I disagree, it's a well-thought out position.

I cannot believe that an administration led by a man with children of his own, who has such compassion for human life, would place our troops (or even innocent Iraqi civilians) in harm's way just to reclaim the presidency. After all, it is a thankless position, especially in one's second term. He has no real competition from the left, and once again, the opposition's vote will be split across two parties. I truly believe there is more at stake here, and I'm not beyond believing that part of the intent is to "shake up" the region, for delaying the inevitable certainly isn't W's style...

[Anand]

I don't care about peoples take on this situation but as it has been said before...

IF and WHEN we go to war.. we better back our country up!! and we WILL kick some a**!!!

[Movingviolation240]

I don't care about peoples take on this situation but as it has been said before...

IF and WHEN we go to war.. we better back our country up!! and we WILL kick some a**!!!

I think both those points are somthing we can all agree upon

[WDRacing]

Some say that time should be given to let the inspections continue. Undoubtedly, Iraq, given its track record, will drag its heels as much as it can in order to create friction within the Security Council. It should be noted that the nations that oppose a rush to war do not have time pressures as an impetus to action. This, however, cannot be said about the current US administration.

The current administration has definite time pressures on it and they are not only the pressures of having an army sitting idle in the field. The main time pressure is that of an election. The clock ticks and the days pass and an election comes closer and closer. Some would say that there is no connection between W's timing of all this and his seeking of a second term in order to persue his conservative agenda. How could one possibly believe that a war would not have an affect upon an election? W knows it and so should every US voter and every concerned person in the world.

This can be the only true pressure to persue war because there has been ("and you'll have to trust me on this") no link between Iraq and Al Qaeda. None. No evidence provided by the prisoners in Camp X in Cuba that can link Bin Laden and Saddam. No evidence presented at the UN. Nothing but assertions that we must trust people who say there are connections though there is no proof. If one accepts there is no connection, then that smashes W's argument of self defence as a justification for war which was the main message of his remarks last night.

W's whole premise for war is the protection and defence of the United States (BTW, why can't W say "United States", the nation's actual name, but instead insists upon calling it "Amurica"? They might have to change the name plate at the UN) but that link between Saddam and terrorlst groups that pose a risk to the US has not been established. It can be argued that lauching a war on an Arab state would endanger the safety of the US economically, diplomatically, increase the likelihood of terrorlst acts at home and abroad and drive rivals such as Bin Laden and Saddam together to fight a common foe. It can also be argued that a war would would cause patriotic US voters to back W for another term. Since there is no justification for a war of self defence what do you think the real reasons are behind an invasion of Iraq?

PS For the sake of all involved here, please keep partisan outrage to this post contained to logical argument and refrain from character assasination and personal attacks.

Not that I want to make this a personal attack, but I find that opinion to be completely deluded. Unwrap yourself from this I hate Bush thing you have going. The reason we are are going to war in the middle east isn't about oil or the next election.

Saddam has weapons and chemicals. He has UAV's with GPS coordinates to US cities. That can't be allowed...PERIOD. There is nothing to debate here bro.

If my government says that Bin Laden is hooked up with Saddam. Then he is...Period. Just like they said it was him responsible for 911, before they had 100% proof. But they were right weren't they.

My brothers and I will once again stand in harms way in order to provide security and peace for our great nation. I do so proudly...to say I'm going to war just to have my President reelected is a digusting insult to me and all of my military family.

WD

[AZhitman]

I do so proudly...to say I'm going to war just to have my President reelected is a digusting insult to me and all of my military family.

Good stuff, WD. I take offense (or offence, depending on where your loyalties lie) as well.

[VimyJ]

[quote=" WDRacing Unwrap yourself from this I hate Bush thing you have going.[/quote]I don't "hate" W. I simply have little respect for him or his spin on the Iraq situation.

Quote » The reason we are are going to war in the middle east isn't about oil or the next election.[/quote]You really don't think that an election has nothing do with the rush to war? Check a calender. Tick tock goes the clock. Timing.

Quote »Saddam has weapons and chemicals. He has UAV's with GPS coordinates to US cities. That can't be allowed...PERIOD. There is nothing to debate here bro.[/quote]Inspections so far have turned up nothing. That's not to say he doesn't have WMD but they haven't been found. No evidence except the flimsy circumstantial variety.

Quote »If my government says that Bin Laden is hooked up with Saddam. Then he is...Period. Just like they said it was him responsible for 911, before they had 100% proof. But they were right weren't they.[/quote]Remember when one president said, "I am not a crook" but it turned out that he was? The government is capable of deception. That was the lesson of Watergate. There is no proof that Bin Laden and Iraq are in cahoots. None. If the gov't were to say the sky is orange does that make the sky orange?

Quote »My brothers and I will once again stand in harms way in order to provide security and peace for our great nation. I do so proudly...to say I'm going to war just to have my President reelected is a digusting insult to me and all of my military family.

WD[/quote]

I applaud your service. However, we will see whether or not the president's actions provide security or create upheaval and wider war. One thing is apparent: the standard of living in the US is going to suffer big time. Already the greenback is sinking fast against all the major currencies. Huge deficits are looming. The president has an agenda and it is important for him to seek and get a second term. Timing is everything. Otherwise, why the rush? Saddam's not going anywhere.

[WDRacing]

Bush already has his war on Terrorism, which is heavily supported I might add. So why would he need to start yet another war that isn't widely supported...I don't think his administration is that dumb. There are still quite a few terrorlst factions we could go eliminate with ease, if it were all about publicity.

No V, I wouldn't believe them if they said the sky was orange. But thats a pretty bad comparison don't ya think. Bin Laden will work with anyone to achieve his ultimate goals, who better then Saddam and Iraq. They have money and weapons. It would be naive to assume otherwise. In fact we should assume he is until he has proven that he isn't. This isn't a court of law. Both of these individuals have already committed crimes against humanity.

WD

[BB Turbo]

Wow, well, i havent posted on any of the political threads, but i will go ahead an do so. From my understanding of what has been going on, and i do watch the news everyday. I believe that all of us should stand behind our country through thick and thin and back thiscountry up no matter what, no matter who is president at the current time.

A thing that i really hate, especially is, how we have so many protesters out there tryin to make a difference, and all of those so called "Americans" who oppose th war and mr. bush, is that, after 9/11, every where you looked, you saw american flags, on cars, on houses, buildings, on peoples clothing, everything. You had bumper stickers that said "We will never forget" or a pic of an american flag and over saying " These colors dont run!", at the time, i was like, good, it shows patriotism and a love for our country.

Then we got the current time, the same people who had those flags and stickers up, are opposing the war, and saying it will kill our troops and the lives of innocent women and children. Yes, there will be casaulties, and yes, as in all wars, many innocent people will die, it is sad but the truth. As for ou men and women in uniform, the F###ing signed up for the job. They swore to protect our country and to die for our country if the time comes.

Now, i have had about 3 family members that have served forthis country and have a cousin in the air force right now waiting to be deployed. I have talked to y uncle, who used to be asniper for the marines, about the war, and eventually, he said something that got to me and i strongly believe, he said " Anyone that is a U.S. citizen, and is opposing the war with Iraq and opposes the presidents views, should be shot for treason. That us un-American to not stand by our country.", i think this is true. Yes, everyone is entitled to heir own opinion, but i stand by this coutry always.

We have gven Saddamm lots and lots ofchances to surrender his weapons and such, and he has not complied and he has been stalling the whole time. He is a threat to us, and the world. I think he needs to be slowly tortured and killed. Anyone who thinks otherwise should have the same thing done too. I hate to think that there are actually people out there that dont want saddamm killed and want him to be kept alive and that dont want us going to war. That is basicaslly siding with the monster himsef and making themselves a terrorlst. We need to bomb him as soon as possible. I DO NOT CARE IF YOU DONT LIKE WHAT I HAD TO SAY.

[lessthanjakejohn]

Saddam wins if he stays alive

[MaineExport]

Originally posted by VimyJ "]Inspections so far have turned up nothing. That's not to say he doesn't have WMD but they haven't been found. No evidence except the flimsy circumstantial variety.

I think David Spade summed it up nicely the other day...(while adding that he is a celebrity and his opinion shouldn't matter any more than anyone else's)...:

"If your mother says... 'I will be inspecting your room for pot in four months'. Well guess what.... there isn't going to be any pot in your room in four months! And no matter how long she looks for it, it won't be there... because you left it at your friend's house."

In regard to Osama and Saddam being in bed together.... I have little doubt that they are... and I think the F-16 pilot made a good point in saying that. We know they are both evil people... we know they BOTH need to be eliminated.

Besides, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the ties between Iraq and Osama are self-evident... and a little 'DEDUCTIVE REASONING' goes a long way:D Does it not? Your standards of proof and evidence differ depending on which side of the fence the argument lies on.

[b240]

Excellent post Maineimport.

[AZhitman]

Mike, I notice a recent and immediate shift in your argument. Not two weeks ago, you were proclaiming this "war" was about oil, and America's greed. Now you have adjusted your stance to say it is about votes. Neither argument has much merit, but it is yours, so I will respect it.

Amazing how hard it is for someone to accept that sometimes people simply do what they do for the principle of doing so. Haven't you ever dropped a schoolyard bully for the sole purpose of teaching him not to pick on other kids? Haven't you ever called attention to someone who is shoplifting instead of standing idly by? Haven't you ever told someone who's littering to "pick that up!" ? If not, I'd highly recommend it - it's just one more way to have some positive influence in a world gone terribly wrong.

[VimyJ]

[quote=" AZhitman Amazing how hard it is for someone to accept that sometimes people simply do what they do for the principle of doing so. Haven't you ever dropped a schoolyard bully for the sole purpose of teaching him not to pick on other kids? Haven't you ever called attention to someone who is shoplifting instead of standing idly by? Haven't you ever told someone who's littering to "pick that up!" ? If not, I'd highly recommend it - it's just one more way to have some positive influence in a world gone terribly wrong.[/quote]

Now, forgive me if I'm wrong but, aren't you a cop?

What happened to all that neo conservative, "We are not the world's policman" stuff? Insert gratuitous smiley face here >

[VimyJ]

I DO NOT CARE IF YOU DONT LIKE WHAT I HAD TO SAY.

I appreciate your post. There are a lot of people in the US who feel like you. Citizens who love their country unconditionally. Patriotism. It's called nationalism in other lands and there is a difference.

I have a distinct connotation of American patriotism that evokes the image of the three Revolutionary War men. One playing the snare, one limping and playing the fife and the man in the middle carrying Betsy Ross' flag marching at the head of the parade.

Your sentiments are eerily reminiscent feelings expressed during the Viet Nam War. I was only knee high to a beer cap at the time but I remember quite a bit about it because I liked planes and they showed them every night on the 6 o'clock news. Which was cool because I lived on a big air force base in San Antonio where my dad was a fighter pilot (they had really cool models in the briefing rooms). I saw riots on TV, hippies, Charles Manson, MLK, F5's dropping napalm, F4's firing rockets, Jane Fonda.... and the war.

Your feelings are appreciated by me. These are confusing times or, as we're fond of calling it here, interesting times. To question the wisdom of a given administration can be called unpatriotic by some but it should never be called un American by any. Turns out that the Viet Nam was a tragedey of the Cold War where young draftees were thrown out as cannon fodder in the fight against Global Communism. An us Vs them scenario if there ever was one.

There is a similar situation developing presently. Another us Vs them thing (is there no escape from the human condition? ) complete with opposing view points about what is the right course to take. I call it the East/West War or WW III.

WW III is the war against radical Islam (I think Islam is radical period but that's just me). We have to get down to creating peace in the Middle East. However, I question the wisdom and motives of W's proposed Pax Americana. I believe, very selfishly I might add, that W is going to bankrupt the federal budget and in so doing establish a "federal" presence in American life more to the liking of the rich and powerful. The United States will be more like a republic and less like a democracy. I am not in favour of this.

I'm not a hippie. War is a fact of life. Islam is a dangerous enemy. Actrocities were committed 9/11/01. W has no convincing justification for a power grab. If he wants to stop Islamic terrorism by invading Iraq, then he's just chasing after windmills. But one thing is damn sure and call me cynical if you like but the world revolves around money and power. What makes the most cents.

You say you are 15. "Iraq Nam" could still be going in three years. Interesting times, indeed.

[VimyJ]

[quote=" maineimport "If your mother says... 'I will be inspecting your room for pot in four months'. Well guess what.... there isn't going to be any pot in your room in four months! And no matter how long she looks for it, it won't be there... because you left it at your friend's house."[/quote]Now I see why you think celebrities are dolts.

I'd also like to read your deductive reasoning regarding the Bin Laden - Saddam relationship since W's reasoning appears so inductive.

BTW, I understand the 04 election campaign is tentatively slated to start March, 17.