Originally posted by VimyJ "] Well, moving as quickly as they have, the W admin. has got the jump on Saddam's forces.
Probably.
Launching an invasion would enable the US to disrupt the Iraq regime's efforts to spread terrorism given the recent advances in the true war on terror Al Qaeda-wise. However, there is no evidence that Saddam has links to Al Qaeda or anyother terrorlst groups bent on the immediate destruction of the US. None.
Speculation.
Then I start thinking election. Wrapping himself in the flag and starting a war that the "W administration must see through to the end, for the good of Amurica" could pay off well at the ballot box in 19 months. However, a war could go badly and backfire. There is an element of risk to this strategy. Too much risk to be the main goal.
Speculation.
There has to be a for sure payoff. Otherwise why the haste? Saddam's not going anywhere. Let's send in 5,000 more inspectors. Hell, I would love to get a nice Nissan 4x4 and drive around the deserts and mountains looking for what now is starting to seem like Don Quixote's windmills.
Specultion.
"Vimy to base. Vimy to UN base. I think I have found an old outhouse that could contain hazardous materials. Requesting an expert to check it out. Also requesting more ice as my beer is getting warm. Over."
Just plain funny as hell... thank you, good work!
So what could W assuredly gain from hasty invasion without the traditional allies or legitamacy from the UN? One thing the war would absolutely do is give access to rich oil fields. Now matter how bad the occupation goes, the US can hang in there for 10 years while Anglo/American oil companies pump the bejeezus out of Iraq. Once the oil can is empty the occupation is over and the oil companies move on after gorging themselves. The best case snenario would see Iraq use the royalties they would recieve to build a thriving industrial democracy but that's almost wishful thinking considering Iraq's serious ethnic divions and no democratic tradition.
Speculaion.
Oil is the one for sure thing that could come of invasion. All the rest contain some degree of risk or speculation.
Specultion.
Of course, W can't go around just launching an invasion of this size without the backing of congress or the general public. That would be political suicide. This isn't the takeover of an isolated Carribean Island. Now's the time. The congress is Republican and the US is still somewhat reeling from 9/11 enough to lash out at anything "Middleast" or "Arab" or "WMD" or "Dictator" or "terrorlst". The reason W is acting so quickly are the polls. Opinion polls. Now's the time to move on this oil and power opportunity. For oilmen like W and Cheeney, this is the chance of a lifetime.
Opinion.
I must have mistakenly deleted the facts.
Another Iraq thread... don't read it if politics offend you!
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MaineExport
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MaineExport
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VimyJ wrote:Maine, I believe you are studying an empiracle science. Engineering, right?
Actually, I am an accounting student... but, I'm focusing more on the theory and analytical side of economics rather than the practical..... but that's neither here nor there and something that really won't be given complete consideration until I begin post-grad work.
BTW.. Strong Bad's email is a riot this week! That Home star runner is an absolute hoot!!!
Quote »All the more reason for more inspefors and more time. What's the rush? Is W afraid the public may just start to wise up to the half truths they're being served. Blix should demand a thousand more inspectors[/quote] why, a thousand inspectors... sounds like an invasion to me. Just picture the upcomming war as a couple thousand U.S inspectors "inspecting" iraq vimy 
Im sorry no matter what you say, saddam is clearly not able to tell the truth and is not reliable when it comes to what he has in his country... thus the need for forcefull change by the U.S before they get out of control. THAT is the longterm rush.... and bush has been trying to get UN support this entire time to appease all the naysayers, even tho we dont NEED permision. Quote »The congress is Republican and the US is still somewhat reeling from 9/11 enough to lash out at anything "Middleast" or "Arab" or "WMD" or "Dictator" or "terrorlst[/quote] you got the terrorlst one right. Terrorists must be delt with. 9 11 proved that we are vulnerable to thier reach. Quote »Why is it the past 2 American wars have been under the bush family? Oil, money, power, greed, all of the above??[/quote] why is it EVERY war is over what you listed...nincompoop. I can tell you did a lot of research s14Quote »I'm sure the US has many more weapons than other other nation. Weapons NO country should have, but who goes into the states demanding that they destroy all their weapons? No one! Leave the world alone, and mind your own damn business, if you ask me.[/quote] um isolationism does not work..every time we try we get spanked HARD and vow never again. Quote »War is horrible. If you were affected by the terrorlst attack at the WTC, then you should be the last to wish the pain you felt, on someone else, regardless of where they live. War helps no one but the wealthy politicians, and please tell me why the rest of the world isn't targeted?[/quote] Without war you wouldnt be here today jr. Read a history book and stop counting yourself as a misinformed opinionated patsy. Quote »sorry if my opinions offend any of you, but again, its just my opinion. I hope your country does well, and hopefully thousands of innocent lives will not be lost, one life isn't worth all the oil in the world, if you ask me.[/quote] read : its cheaper to buy all the oil from iraq then the total cost of the war. why then? hes a threat to us and his own people. Sigh i grow weary of products from the liberal propaganda machine, churning out kids who dont know what a history book is and think war is a thing of the past...at least vimy seems to know a bit of history. 
Im sorry no matter what you say, saddam is clearly not able to tell the truth and is not reliable when it comes to what he has in his country... thus the need for forcefull change by the U.S before they get out of control. THAT is the longterm rush.... and bush has been trying to get UN support this entire time to appease all the naysayers, even tho we dont NEED permision. Quote »The congress is Republican and the US is still somewhat reeling from 9/11 enough to lash out at anything "Middleast" or "Arab" or "WMD" or "Dictator" or "terrorlst[/quote] you got the terrorlst one right. Terrorists must be delt with. 9 11 proved that we are vulnerable to thier reach. Quote »Why is it the past 2 American wars have been under the bush family? Oil, money, power, greed, all of the above??[/quote] why is it EVERY war is over what you listed...nincompoop. I can tell you did a lot of research s14Quote »I'm sure the US has many more weapons than other other nation. Weapons NO country should have, but who goes into the states demanding that they destroy all their weapons? No one! Leave the world alone, and mind your own damn business, if you ask me.[/quote] um isolationism does not work..every time we try we get spanked HARD and vow never again. Quote »War is horrible. If you were affected by the terrorlst attack at the WTC, then you should be the last to wish the pain you felt, on someone else, regardless of where they live. War helps no one but the wealthy politicians, and please tell me why the rest of the world isn't targeted?[/quote] Without war you wouldnt be here today jr. Read a history book and stop counting yourself as a misinformed opinionated patsy. Quote »sorry if my opinions offend any of you, but again, its just my opinion. I hope your country does well, and hopefully thousands of innocent lives will not be lost, one life isn't worth all the oil in the world, if you ask me.[/quote] read : its cheaper to buy all the oil from iraq then the total cost of the war. why then? hes a threat to us and his own people. Sigh i grow weary of products from the liberal propaganda machine, churning out kids who dont know what a history book is and think war is a thing of the past...at least vimy seems to know a bit of history. There's the rub. There is no connection whatsoever to Iraq and 9/11. The atrocity was commited by citizens of the US's closest Muslim ally in the middleast, Saudi Arabia.89sxRCR wrote: Terrorists must be delt with. 9 11 proved that we are vulnerable to thier reach.
Under intenational law the use of armed force in self defence is justifiable. This was why W in his press conference kept repeating that an invasion of Iraq was for the purpose of self defence. However, there is no demostratable evidence that Iraq is a threat to the US. Therefore the self defence argument is specious.
There is no Saddam-Al Qaeda connection. This is the thing that puzzles me the most about the US general public. Even though there is no evidence of a direct Iraqi threat, the public seems to be blindly following W's trumped up charges. Additionally, Iraq isn't flouting US resolutions. It is flouting UN resolutions. Therefore, W has no right under international law to attack Iraq if the UN doesn't mandate it. Coupled with the lack of evidence for a case of self defence, the US has no legal right under international law to invade.
There have been murmurings lately that Iraq was a target of W & Co. BEFORE 9/11 even happened. This is revealing as it seems W is trying to pound the square peg of "self defence" into the round hole of UN resolutions.
I find great fault in W's handling of all this. His administrstion has failed miserably at the art of diplomacy and stands to alienate the US in international affairs by polarizing anti-Americanism to a greater degree by rushing into this invasion.
Don't get me wrong. I think Islam is a terrible threat to the Western world. The the days following 9/11 I was advocating a standard "Roman" responce to insurection namely full scale invasion, the salting of the earth and the killing or enslaving of the entire population of Afghanistan to serve as an example to the Islamic world that woe would be upon them if they ever tried a stunt like 9/11 again. Total war with no mercy. Well, that didn't happen and we will be faced with more terrorism unfortunately that will likely get worse. Islam is our enemy. However, Iraq is not a theocratic Isalmic state like Iran or anything Bin Laden represents. No, the reasons for Invasion of the secular state of Iraq are different. Oil and revenge for W.H. Profits measured by the quaterly report and a furthering of the GOP doestic agenda by bankrupting the federal government are W's true goals. Most of the world doesn't trust W and you can count me among them.
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Movingviolation240
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VimyJ wrote:Yep, I'll agree with you there. The inspections seem to be working. He's coughing up the weapons slowly but surely. Well, I guess the drones have been discovered as well now. Looks as if we're finding everything slowly but surely. I'm still available for inspection duty in my UN provided FX45 with the GPS navigation package.Roam around for a year 4x4ing. Yeehaw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sadam has a train leaving Baghdad with a nuclear weapon traveling 65mph, the Inspectors leave in a train behind it at 50mph... when will they catch up to disarm the weapon?
Your arguement is stupid... "if we wait long enough we will find everything" What if the you called the police and said sombody was breaking into your house and trying to rape your mother and the 911 operator said "don't worry he'll be gone in a little bit and we'll find him somtime next week I'm sure". What did that accomplish? Nothing.... When dealing with weapons like this you have to catch him BEFORE he can use them or hide them all.... 'more time' isn't really a viable option.
Paul
[quote=" Movingviolation240 Sadam has a train leaving Baghdad with a nuclear weapon traveling 65mph, the Inspectors leave in a train behind it at 50mph... when will they catch up to disarm the weapon?[/quote]All the more reason for more inspectors already standing around at the train's destination. Why not more inspector's? I don't undertand why there aren't 5000 inspectors just doing sorties into the countryside and generally sticking their noses into anything and everything. I could cover a lot of barren desert in my UN provided FX45.
Completing an agressive inspection program has important benefits. One: The US would be effectively containing Saddam to an existence of constantly being revealed if he is in fact hiding WMD's. Two: the US would be seen as leading the entire world in a crackdown of WMD proliferation. Three: avoiding unecessary death of US servicemen. Four: avoiding costly occupation of a hostile nation. Five: prevention of W & Co. from bankrupting the US.
Quote »Your arguement is stupid... "if we wait long enough we will find everything" What if the you called the police and said sombody was breaking into your house and trying to rape your mother and the 911 operator said "don't worry he'll be gone in a little bit and we'll find him somtime next week I'm sure". What did that accomplish? Nothing.... When dealing with weapons like this you have to catch him BEFORE he can use them or hide them all.... 'more time' isn't really a viable option.[/quote]Talk about inane comparisons! Maybe I'm a little slow but I sure don't see any similarity between Iraq and the in progress rape of someone's mother. The comparison does reveal your emotional response to an attack upon the shores of the US. You feel as if the US was raped and that immediate retribution or revenge should be visited upon anything "Arab" or "Islamic", etc. even though Iraq had nothing to do with the crime. Try to be rational about this situation. I'll admit things can be blurry but don't be fooled by W into a fool's mission. Iraq did not have anything to do with the atrocities on 9/11. Iraq stands in defiance of UN resolutions not US ones.
Paul [/QUOTE]
Completing an agressive inspection program has important benefits. One: The US would be effectively containing Saddam to an existence of constantly being revealed if he is in fact hiding WMD's. Two: the US would be seen as leading the entire world in a crackdown of WMD proliferation. Three: avoiding unecessary death of US servicemen. Four: avoiding costly occupation of a hostile nation. Five: prevention of W & Co. from bankrupting the US.
Quote »Your arguement is stupid... "if we wait long enough we will find everything" What if the you called the police and said sombody was breaking into your house and trying to rape your mother and the 911 operator said "don't worry he'll be gone in a little bit and we'll find him somtime next week I'm sure". What did that accomplish? Nothing.... When dealing with weapons like this you have to catch him BEFORE he can use them or hide them all.... 'more time' isn't really a viable option.[/quote]Talk about inane comparisons! Maybe I'm a little slow but I sure don't see any similarity between Iraq and the in progress rape of someone's mother. The comparison does reveal your emotional response to an attack upon the shores of the US. You feel as if the US was raped and that immediate retribution or revenge should be visited upon anything "Arab" or "Islamic", etc. even though Iraq had nothing to do with the crime. Try to be rational about this situation. I'll admit things can be blurry but don't be fooled by W into a fool's mission. Iraq did not have anything to do with the atrocities on 9/11. Iraq stands in defiance of UN resolutions not US ones.
Paul [/QUOTE]
Meanwhile, back at the UN....
http://www.canoe.ca/WinnipegNe....html
Which begs the question: Why the rush? Let's just keep the pressure on and keep poking Iraq towards the edge of the cliff. I would love to see France boxed into a postition where it was forced to authorize use of force or at least abstain from voting because agressive yet common sense demands are impossible for Saddam to meet IF he is in fact hiding WMD's. France would have no choice but to back its own stand on UN resolution 1441's "Serious consequences" and I don't think even France thought that serious consequences was a sanctioning of frog leg imports into Iraq but rather something far more "serious" like forced regime change. This is a UN matter and the UN should be involved to give the US invasion legitmacy in the eyes of the whole world not cowboy frontier justice. The latter case would set a bad precedent for unilateral action by other nations. e.g. China taking back Taiwan.
If W wants to bankrupt the country why not an invasion of N. Korea and big tax cuts for the wealthiest? N. Korea poses the most imminent threat to global security, IMHO. Oh ya, I forgot for a second. No oil.
http://www.canoe.ca/WinnipegNe....html
Which begs the question: Why the rush? Let's just keep the pressure on and keep poking Iraq towards the edge of the cliff. I would love to see France boxed into a postition where it was forced to authorize use of force or at least abstain from voting because agressive yet common sense demands are impossible for Saddam to meet IF he is in fact hiding WMD's. France would have no choice but to back its own stand on UN resolution 1441's "Serious consequences" and I don't think even France thought that serious consequences was a sanctioning of frog leg imports into Iraq but rather something far more "serious" like forced regime change. This is a UN matter and the UN should be involved to give the US invasion legitmacy in the eyes of the whole world not cowboy frontier justice. The latter case would set a bad precedent for unilateral action by other nations. e.g. China taking back Taiwan.
If W wants to bankrupt the country why not an invasion of N. Korea and big tax cuts for the wealthiest? N. Korea poses the most imminent threat to global security, IMHO. Oh ya, I forgot for a second. No oil.
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Movingviolation240
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my arguement had nothing to do with 9-11 nothing at all.
I'm mearly saying that the proper way to protect sombody isn't to wait around for somthing to happen, or to think that 'we will find them sooner or later so it's no big deal'. If you wait till later it might just be to late. Why give them more time to spread and hide their weapons?
Paul
I'm mearly saying that the proper way to protect sombody isn't to wait around for somthing to happen, or to think that 'we will find them sooner or later so it's no big deal'. If you wait till later it might just be to late. Why give them more time to spread and hide their weapons?
Paul
You can't go around invading countries because you think they might do something especially if there is no evidence to back your suspicions. That's just plain stupid. Hence my opposition the the W & Co. postion on the face of it. More subtly, I am against W's thinly veiled attempt at a power grab in the middle east and concurrent bankrupting of the federal goverment to futher his slash and burn GOP neo conservative agenda.Movingviolation240 wrote:my arguement had nothing to do with 9-11 nothing at all.
I'm mearly saying that the proper way to protect sombody isn't to wait around for somthing to happen, or to think that 'we will find them sooner or later so it's no big deal'. If you wait till later it might just be to late. Why give them more time to spread and hide their weapons?
Paul
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s14=pimpin'
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LOL Maine, glad to see you haven't lost your sense of humour in this touchy thread. When are you planning to head North?
Obviously, some of you are fairly new to this board, and weren't around when I had my back pack full of shat, and was flinging it in the faces of some long time members here (or at least, thats how they percieved my opinions to be). Hey, in real life, I'm brutally honest with my friends, and truth hurts. My thoughts have gotten me into alot of crap on this board, and only after about a years time, did the waves finally begin to settle **cough** repo **cough**
Anyway, this is a car forum, and despite the fact that we are opened to say our opinions, some might percieve mine as harmful, and won't take me seriously on other topics.
Anyway, I've said what I must. There's still aot in me, but do any of you think this battle is a little more personal than just money and oil? why is it that Isreal is the ONLY arab nation that the US will die to protect? Holy land blah blah blah, think it may have anything to do with the fact that 60% of the US congress are jewish?? I personally, have NOTHING against Jewish people, just thought I'd give you some food for thought.
Make love, not war...........
........besides, nothing feels better than blowing a load
Obviously, some of you are fairly new to this board, and weren't around when I had my back pack full of shat, and was flinging it in the faces of some long time members here (or at least, thats how they percieved my opinions to be). Hey, in real life, I'm brutally honest with my friends, and truth hurts. My thoughts have gotten me into alot of crap on this board, and only after about a years time, did the waves finally begin to settle **cough** repo **cough**
Anyway, this is a car forum, and despite the fact that we are opened to say our opinions, some might percieve mine as harmful, and won't take me seriously on other topics.
Anyway, I've said what I must. There's still aot in me, but do any of you think this battle is a little more personal than just money and oil? why is it that Isreal is the ONLY arab nation that the US will die to protect? Holy land blah blah blah, think it may have anything to do with the fact that 60% of the US congress are jewish?? I personally, have NOTHING against Jewish people, just thought I'd give you some food for thought.
Make love, not war...........
........besides, nothing feels better than blowing a load
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MaineExport
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Originally posted by s14=pimpin' "]LOL Maine, glad to see you haven't lost your sense of humour in this touchy thread.
Haha... always have to be able to laugh... especially at myself!
When are you planning to head North?
This summer I will make it up there for sure. I've got a very good job opportnity lined up that should leave me with a little extra coin! I finally get to apply my education to my work!!!! Whoooo hooo! NO more saute pans for this cracker!
Anyway, this is a car forum, and despite the fact that we are opened to say our opinions, some might percieve mine as harmful, and won't take me seriously on other topics.
Nah... most of us don't take you seriously because we know better!;)
why is it that Isreal is the ONLY arab nation that the US will die to protect? Holy land blah blah blah, think it may have anything to do with the fact that 60% of the US congress are jewish?? I personally, have NOTHING against Jewish people, just thought I'd give you some food for thought.
Intresting theory... I was always under the impression that our government was more Protestant oriented, but I have never really considered it enough to actually find out the statistics.
One of the guitarists in my band is Jewish (funniest guy I've ever met) and his opinions about this whole middle-east fiasco are always enlightening.
........besides, nothing feels better than blowing a load
I didn't see that one coming.... so to speak!
Haha... always have to be able to laugh... especially at myself!
When are you planning to head North?
This summer I will make it up there for sure. I've got a very good job opportnity lined up that should leave me with a little extra coin! I finally get to apply my education to my work!!!! Whoooo hooo! NO more saute pans for this cracker!
Anyway, this is a car forum, and despite the fact that we are opened to say our opinions, some might percieve mine as harmful, and won't take me seriously on other topics.
Nah... most of us don't take you seriously because we know better!;)
why is it that Isreal is the ONLY arab nation that the US will die to protect? Holy land blah blah blah, think it may have anything to do with the fact that 60% of the US congress are jewish?? I personally, have NOTHING against Jewish people, just thought I'd give you some food for thought.
Intresting theory... I was always under the impression that our government was more Protestant oriented, but I have never really considered it enough to actually find out the statistics.
One of the guitarists in my band is Jewish (funniest guy I've ever met) and his opinions about this whole middle-east fiasco are always enlightening.
........besides, nothing feels better than blowing a load
I didn't see that one coming.... so to speak!
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big jon's 240
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s14=pimpin' wrote:why is it that Bush goes around bullying Iraq and not the rest of the world? Why is it the past 2 American wars have been under the bush family? Oil, money, power, greed, all of the above??
Thats funny, ever heard of Bosnia, Kosovo, or Somalia? Yes they were not full scale wars, but they were armed conflicts none the less. And ask any person who was in Somalia (i have), the americans that were killed there were a direct result of Clinton being too much of a puss to commit the neccesary forces to accomplish the mission. Instead he half assed it and look what happened.
I'm sure the US has many more weapons than other other nation.
When was the last time we gased North Dakota?
War is horrible.
Couldnt agree with you more. But sometimes it the only remaining option.
Man, I miss Clinton. no one was watching their backs,
I seem to remember a couple of embassies in Africa blowing up. And the 9/11 attacks were probably in planning while he was still in office. Clinton was a lying, draft dodging, scumbag, (in my opinion, anyhhow) and as a result of his actions has the blood of several Americans on his hands.
and Clinton is about the closest to a black president the US is ever gonna get.
Huh? what does that have to do with anything?
sorry if my opinions offend any of you, but again, its just my opinion.
They dont, and they shouldnt. They are simply opinions. Thats the beauty of living in a free country, you can say whatever you want. Sorry i cant say the same for iraqi's. Not yet anyway.....
You friendly NICO warmonger!Jon
Remember my harping on the gutting of federal responsibilties as being a big component of W's strategy? Well, it's starting to happen. Just read two news items about state and federal gov't budgets. The federal budget is being slashed to pay for war and tax breaks and figures federal deficits in trillions. The other one has state legislatures passing incomet ax increases to pay for less federal money, etc, coming in.
I won't bother posting any links because you'll be reading about it in your local paper soon and most here have a knee jerk reaction to anything I post. But you heard it here first, on NICO.
Can't wait to see what happens to my property tax bill in the coming months.:rolleyes
I won't bother posting any links because you'll be reading about it in your local paper soon and most here have a knee jerk reaction to anything I post. But you heard it here first, on NICO.
Can't wait to see what happens to my property tax bill in the coming months.:rolleyes
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big jon's 240
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I'd be lying if i said i knew a lot about economics. However i dont think (and ive heard several economists say the same) that deficits are the huge boogey man they are made out to be. Ever get a loan for a house or a car? if you did you are running a deficit. Sometimes it is necessary to spend a little more than you have. And many economists say that projecting budjets anything beyond five years is unwise and most time inaccurate, as there are too many variables to be factored in.
Back to the war thing. Did anybody watch 60 minutes last night? The article at the end was most amusing. It was about kids in high school walking out to protest the war. One protestor they interviewed thought UBL was the leader of iraq, and another thought we were bombing iraq already and that it was wrong to bomb afghanistan, and was carying a flier that she thought stated "healthcare not welfare" when in fact it said "healthcare not warfare". It was all very humorous. What is happening to education these days?
Back to the war thing. Did anybody watch 60 minutes last night? The article at the end was most amusing. It was about kids in high school walking out to protest the war. One protestor they interviewed thought UBL was the leader of iraq, and another thought we were bombing iraq already and that it was wrong to bomb afghanistan, and was carying a flier that she thought stated "healthcare not welfare" when in fact it said "healthcare not warfare". It was all very humorous. What is happening to education these days?
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s14=pimpin'
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i dunno, kinda looks like these guys are having a blast, IMO.
maine, you better hit me up prior to your summer vacation.
Damn, you guys are alot more level headed than the NICO of old, I figured I would have been flamed to death by now. Anyway, its your country, glad to see you guys support your leaders in whatever decision they make, jsut wish Bush would try a more peaceful resolution.
Oh, the Bush family does own a couple oiling companies, and Bin Laden's brother is one of his partners. Ever thought there might be some sort of personal gain in all of this? And how hard can it be to find someone, when your are a big business partner with his immediate family? [/IMG]
maine, you better hit me up prior to your summer vacation.
Damn, you guys are alot more level headed than the NICO of old, I figured I would have been flamed to death by now. Anyway, its your country, glad to see you guys support your leaders in whatever decision they make, jsut wish Bush would try a more peaceful resolution.
Oh, the Bush family does own a couple oiling companies, and Bin Laden's brother is one of his partners. Ever thought there might be some sort of personal gain in all of this? And how hard can it be to find someone, when your are a big business partner with his immediate family? [/IMG]
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s14=pimpin'
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MaineExport
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Tino wrote:You people are old. I mean come on! start talking about cars, girls, games, beer and baseball enough politics and science! Thats my dads topic and hes turning 56 got damnit!
If you want to hang out with ricers and geeks go back to the 240 general section.. it's getting ugly in there!:D The rest of us that care about the world will be here bickering endlessly!
I'm not getting into this but I got this in the email figure some of you can yak about it idk don't shoot the messenger.
> Message from England> > No matter what your views on President Bush's statement of upcoming> war, this, from an English journalist, is very interesting. Just a word of> > background, for those of you who aren't familiar with the UK's Daily> Mirror. This is a notoriously left-wing daily that is normally not > supportive of the Colonials across the Atlantic.> > *******************************************************************> > Tony Parsons Daily Mirror September 11, 2002> > One year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting -- the> mass > murder of thousands, live on television. As a lesson in the pitiless> cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol Pot's> Mountain> of Skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage in the> > Nazi concentration camps.> > An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that> surely the world could agree on one thing - nobody deserves this fate.> Surely there could be consensus: The victims were truly innocent, the > perpetrators truly evil.> > But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as America's > comeuppance. Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last> year.> > There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country; > too loud, too rich, too full of themselves, and so much happier than> Europeans - but it has become an epidemic. And it seems incredible to me.> More than that, it turns my stomach.> > America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are> > bonded to the US by culture, language and blood. A little over half a> century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as> well > as their own. Have we forgotten so soon? And exactly a year ago, thousands> > of ordinary men, women and children - not just Americans, but from dozens> of> countries, were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics. Are we> so> quick to betray them?> > What touched the heart about those who died in the Twin Towers and on the > planes, was that we recognized them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody's> > son and somebody's daughter, husbands, wives, and children, some unborn.> > And these people brought it on themselves? Their nation is to blame for > their meticulously planned slaughter?> > These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul > orKarachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan. The> anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the > Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering> from > power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes> > without having to ask permission.> > The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since > September 11.> > Remember, remember -> > Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to> say,> "I love you," before they were burned alive.> > Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning > skyscrapers.> > Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive.> > Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of> > the planes with her mum.> > Remember, remember -> > And realize that America has never retaliated for 9/11 in anything like> the > way it could have.> > So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked without a trial in Camp X-ray? Pass> > the Kleenex . . .> > So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired > their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but> maybe next time they should stick to confetti.> > AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot.> That it didn't is a sign of strength. American voices are already being > raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for. How many> in > the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered> innocents> of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that the mass > murder of 9/11 was an abomination?> > When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving > Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that - and> didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most> > powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not> > provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism." A real war.> > The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell," if> > America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell > like you wouldn't believe.> > The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of> the earth. The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and> > the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived.> > But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched> > countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the > Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand -assuming you> haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.> > I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle.> > But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh.> Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be -> rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or > religion, or some caste system. America is the best friend this country> ever had and we should start remembering that.> > Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the> loved > ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning> towers.> > Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the hijacked > planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper. And tell it to> the> hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York Fire> Department.> > To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein. Once we> were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up> > rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save me the> > orange center, Oh Mighty One!> > Remember, remember, September 11 -> > One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against > America.> > No, do more than remember. Never forget.>
> Message from England> > No matter what your views on President Bush's statement of upcoming> war, this, from an English journalist, is very interesting. Just a word of> > background, for those of you who aren't familiar with the UK's Daily> Mirror. This is a notoriously left-wing daily that is normally not > supportive of the Colonials across the Atlantic.> > *******************************************************************> > Tony Parsons Daily Mirror September 11, 2002> > One year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting -- the> mass > murder of thousands, live on television. As a lesson in the pitiless> cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol Pot's> Mountain> of Skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage in the> > Nazi concentration camps.> > An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that> surely the world could agree on one thing - nobody deserves this fate.> Surely there could be consensus: The victims were truly innocent, the > perpetrators truly evil.> > But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as America's > comeuppance. Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last> year.> > There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country; > too loud, too rich, too full of themselves, and so much happier than> Europeans - but it has become an epidemic. And it seems incredible to me.> More than that, it turns my stomach.> > America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are> > bonded to the US by culture, language and blood. A little over half a> century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as> well > as their own. Have we forgotten so soon? And exactly a year ago, thousands> > of ordinary men, women and children - not just Americans, but from dozens> of> countries, were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics. Are we> so> quick to betray them?> > What touched the heart about those who died in the Twin Towers and on the > planes, was that we recognized them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody's> > son and somebody's daughter, husbands, wives, and children, some unborn.> > And these people brought it on themselves? Their nation is to blame for > their meticulously planned slaughter?> > These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul > orKarachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan. The> anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the > Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering> from > power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes> > without having to ask permission.> > The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since > September 11.> > Remember, remember -> > Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to> say,> "I love you," before they were burned alive.> > Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning > skyscrapers.> > Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive.> > Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of> > the planes with her mum.> > Remember, remember -> > And realize that America has never retaliated for 9/11 in anything like> the > way it could have.> > So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked without a trial in Camp X-ray? Pass> > the Kleenex . . .> > So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired > their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but> maybe next time they should stick to confetti.> > AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot.> That it didn't is a sign of strength. American voices are already being > raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for. How many> in > the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered> innocents> of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that the mass > murder of 9/11 was an abomination?> > When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving > Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that - and> didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most> > powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not> > provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism." A real war.> > The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell," if> > America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell > like you wouldn't believe.> > The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of> the earth. The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and> > the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived.> > But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched> > countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the > Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand -assuming you> haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.> > I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle.> > But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh.> Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be -> rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or > religion, or some caste system. America is the best friend this country> ever had and we should start remembering that.> > Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the> loved > ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning> towers.> > Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the hijacked > planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper. And tell it to> the> hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York Fire> Department.> > To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein. Once we> were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up> > rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save me the> > orange center, Oh Mighty One!> > Remember, remember, September 11 -> > One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against > America.> > No, do more than remember. Never forget.>
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VimyJ wrote:but I hope the inspectors find WMD's in Iraq so that those idiot frogs would be made to look foolish. Yet, somehow, I don't think it's going to happen.
Well, at least we seem to have you struggling for any kind of backup depth to your position -
You still seem to choose to refute Powell and the WORLD’s COLLECTIVE INTELLIGENCE SOURCES, as, YOU know better: that Saddam and the boyos are WMD Free ! Guess you are lining up with Farrel, Streisand and Penn who know what’s under the sands around the world. What, Believe Blixie Da Pixie for another twelve years - “Would this be the same Dr Hans Blix who was Director General of the IAEA who signed off on Iraq having NO NUCLEAR PROGRAMs in 1990 ? Would this be the same Dr Hans Blix who was Director General of the IAEA who signed off on Our pals Kimmie Poo that N. Korea was hunky dory and was declared a fully complaint playpal, with a non-threatening, innocuous Nuke program?” For the third time - were you as strident in your belief of Saddams innocence in the 1990's when the UN said All is wunnnerful, and THEN the Nuke, Biological, Radiological and Chemical goodies come out to play after sooooooooo many protests of innocence from CamelJockitch #1. (Wonder where our Farrel/Streisand/Penn Co-Secretary of States stood on this - right along with you ?) Boy oh Boy, you sure can pick your Homies, I suppose Jacques Iraq is sending a Case of Olive Oil so the truth can continue to wash over you , slide down your back and not stick ‘atwixt them lil’ heary things.
You seem to have slowed you criticisms of our American President - I’m still awaiting an answer - “As to you denigrating W, did YOU obtain an Masters degree? an MBA? an MBA from HARVARD? F102 Flight Certification ? Again, While W may not be the sharpest arrow in the quiver (but probably smarter then you or I based on his edumakation, my MSIE/MBA are only from Public California Institutions), methinks I like the real pros being back in control vs the other options. Oh that’’s right - OBVIOUSLY YOU KNOW far more than all of those intelligence sources of the combined world that W uses”.
You seem to have slowed your criticisms of A RUSH TO WAR and CONTAIN ‘EM HIGH ! Whattsamatta you, REALITY And HISTORY slip in - smelled the coffee ? 12 years of ineffectualness from the UN Footsie Brigade w/Blixie as current Whipping, boy. The proven fallacy and Idiocy of listening to, believing and allowing CamelJockitch #1 to play hide da Salami unless a Quarter of a Million Inspectors are knocking at the door ? A RUSH TO WAR? ? ? YOUR sainted Billery didn’t even go 6 month with attempts at the UN before pulling the trigger WITHOUT UN MOMMYBOY’s SANCTION on that mind boggelingly North-American threatening problem in Serbo-Croatia, or Liechtenstein , or Andorra or some other World Trouble spot. Excussseee MEEEEEEEEE - Ahhhh, but 12 years, months more listening to that nadr of nothingness Blixie, Camel Jockitch’s obsequious lies agonizingly pulled from him - That is a RUSH ? ? ?.
BTW - We ARE successfully pursuing a course against Al Q at the same time, did you laugh your *** off when some idiotic Democratic Senator had to rewrite his words about the ineffectual war on terror vs wasted $$ on Iraq, just the same day that a minor catch like Da Sheikh Man got his nuts in a turban - This Aint your Daddy’s Combat Scene out there anymore !
Oopsies, did ya forget those little REALITY and HISTORY thingees again as we are already on decent terms with the worlds largest Owner of Gas, Qatar, and a passing Howdy w/da Saudi’s. What about the Owner of the worlds largest Coal sands repository, Your own Great White N. ? Can you say American Coal ? But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO - you seem to advocate we take the morally idiotic view and lets leave the #2 depository of Texas Tea to be spent on more support for Terrorism, MWD, Armed Colonialism and all the assorted games ole’ Camel Jockitch#1 has been, and continues to play - At least we aren’t supporting the schmuck directly anymore - You come down on CamelJockitch# 1's side when you refuse to believe a good moral man is doing what he is charged with doing, Protecting the US. If the end result of Wacky Boys comin Necktie party is a Free Iraq that has its people come home to run a productive society, and yes, even have a modernized infrastructure that would probably allow multi-nationals in to help (the seven sisters amongst), and you don’t want that, I am led to believe you prefer CamelJockitch# 1 and the status quo - just like the FRENCH -
And get OFF those despotic, repressive lil’ buds of ours, the Saudi’s, it’s a hell of a tightrope act to modernize a country when the idiots from the next Wadi want control over your family and the countries resources - they HAVE raised the standards of living from tent floors just a bit - so don’t equate birth places with accrued loyalties (Johnny Bin Walker anyone ?) Hell, we still have our lil’ issues of secular vs religious contingents getting their ways.
You blithely continue to blame W and da Gang for being back in power - Don’t be preposterous, the old guards professionalism is thankfully back and attempting to set the ship aright - Didja ferget slashing half of our ship count, Thanks Billery, didja ferget slashing half of of Air Wing count, Thanks Billery, Didja ferget slashing half of our Battalion strength in the Army, Thanks Billery, didja ferget decimating every Intelligence organization, Thanks Billery ? Could we extrapolate and blame 9/11 on Billery dooming our Intelligence Agencies to working undermanned and underfunded, while liberals made the world safe for gnatcatchers ? Hmmmmmmmmmmm, Reality - What a Concept
Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, keep bringing up Billary - in these tense times, we soo need a good laugh to proceed taking a Saddam and wiping ones’ Hussain. Again, I am sorry to mention REALITY and HISTORY, but the market started to collapse on Billery’s watch as the Stock market highs were at their Historic high about three years ago, Hmmmmmmm, the Puffy Daddy excess starting to come home in the whole last year of BS - lets not forget the US Guv-Mint admitting Bore and the Dems had cooked the bookes to try to make the financial book thingys a bit rosier for his de election fiasco. Kinda reminds me of Our dear Governor Grey (pay-to-play) Dufus lying wildly just before the election. Hell, I know - Lets start a position for Secretary of the New Worlds State of Wunnerfulness in California and have Farrel/Streisand/Penn tell us what is what in the State of The World. I for one am just all a twitter waiting for their sainted pronouncements!
I tend to believe that the Islamic/Arabian folks are gonna make Mussolini’s lil’ necktie party look insignificant - look at Jordan wiping out a couple of hundred thousand Palasitinians yappin’ about Me, Me, I, I, Gimme, Gimme when they didn’t agree the King retaining his own Biblical land (Newbies, sheeesh), remember Assad wiping the village off the face of the earth as they defied him (pretty damn easy to shut yappie Palasitinians up if you play normal Middle Eastern Slaughter-em-all Politics, but nooooo - now they have a long suffering bunch of souls that act like the US with forbearance and tolerance to yap at) Camel Jockitch# 1 assumes he can continue to do what he been doing (proving the UN sure as Hell is a good joke) - buuuuut, you can just feel the love waiting for ole’ Camel Jockitch# 1 ‘a comin - from his own !
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MaineExport
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Tino wrote:I'm not getting into this but I got this in the email figure some of you can yak about it idk don't shoot the messenger.
I liked the article. It's true that our brothers and sisters in freedom were viously murdered 9/11 and in other terrorlst attacks. Radical Muslim Extremists did that. It was the end of the age of innocence for the American people and free people everywhere. A savage brutal attack done in the name of God (I'm not stating any kind of moral judgment, it's what the terrorists claimed).
There are idiots on both sides of this issue. One has people who think it's about baby seals and the other has those who would like to launch nuclear armagedon upon everything outside "Amurica" and maybe even a few places inside of it.
Just remember that there is no evidence that Iraq had anything to do in the attack. Iraq stands in violation of UN NOT US sanctions. The big grab is oil and if the war on terrorism is assisted as as by product great, if the invasion and oppcupation go badly, well, that's just the cost of doing business.
"The business of America is business." Teddy Roosevelte
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s14=pimpin'
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Damn propoganda, wake up and smell the coffee people, and quit living your sheltered life (decent post tino, but i still think that whole article should be used as toilet paper).
I love how when people are confronted with undeniable facts, for which they no no real argument against, they dismiss it simply as "propaganda".
hopefully this war will make you all sleep better at night<<< sarcasm
No actually i will be working long nights supporting the war effort. But in the long run, yes it will. Because when all is said and done, i know that i will have helped (in my own small way) the iraqi's taste the wonderful thing called freedom.
And why do people keep insisting on bringing up the "oil" issue? We CAN NOT and WILL NOT steel iraq's oil! If oil were the issue, we would invade Russia, as many geologist believe that the largest oil reserves on the planet sit up in Siberia. Te french ( First stop Baghdad, second stop Paris!!!), have more of a financial interest in iraq than the US.
Tino and msscomm, great posts, but i feel like i just read "War and peace"!:D
I love how when people are confronted with undeniable facts, for which they no no real argument against, they dismiss it simply as "propaganda".
hopefully this war will make you all sleep better at night<<< sarcasm
No actually i will be working long nights supporting the war effort. But in the long run, yes it will. Because when all is said and done, i know that i will have helped (in my own small way) the iraqi's taste the wonderful thing called freedom.
And why do people keep insisting on bringing up the "oil" issue? We CAN NOT and WILL NOT steel iraq's oil! If oil were the issue, we would invade Russia, as many geologist believe that the largest oil reserves on the planet sit up in Siberia. Te french ( First stop Baghdad, second stop Paris!!!), have more of a financial interest in iraq than the US.
Tino and msscomm, great posts, but i feel like i just read "War and peace"!:D
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s14=pimpin'
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> There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country; > too loud, too rich, too full of themselves, and so much happier than> Europeans <<<<< NOT PROPAGANDA
And exactly a year ago, thousands> > of ordinary men, women and children - not just Americans, but from dozens> of> countries, were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics. Are we> so> quick to betray them? <<<< YES, WELL, THIS GUY FAILED TO MENTION ALL THE ATTACKS ON MUSLIMS MOSQUES (sp?) AND PERSONAL ATTACKS ON MUSLIMS IN GENERAL SHORTLY AFTER THE ATTACKS?
PROPAGANDA, YES
> What touched the heart about those who died in the Twin Towers and on the > planes, was that we recognized them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody's> > son and somebody's daughter, husbands, wives, and children, some unborn.> > And these people brought it on themselves? Their nation is to blame for > their meticulously planned slaughter?>
GIMME A BREAK, DO YOU REALLY WANT TO BLAME IRAQ AS A WHOLE, OR IN PARTICULAR, BIN LADEN OR SADDAM, FOR THE ACTS OF A CLAN OF FANATICS??? BOMBING HALF OF AFGANISTAN TO FIND ONE PERSON, WHO IS A RELATIVE OF A BUSINESS ALY OF THE PRESIDENT?
PROPAGANDA, YES
> These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul > orKarachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan.
PRPOGANDA, NO
The> anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the > Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering> from > power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes> > without having to ask permission.>
THAT IS A STUPID REMARK ALL TOGETHER
> The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since > September 11.> > Remember, remember -> > Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to> say,> "I love you," before they were burned alive.> > Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning > skyscrapers.> > Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive.> > Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of> > the planes with her mum.> > Remember, remember -> > And realize that America has never retaliated for 9/11 in anything like> the > way it could have.>
ALL THOSE BOMBS DROPPED ON AFGANISTAN WAS A PEACEFUL RESTRAINT??? DAMN, I'D HATE TO SEE HOW LOW BUSH WOULD GO IF YOU REALLY PISSED HIM OFF
PROPAGANDA, YES
> So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked without a trial in Camp X-ray? Pass> > the Kleenex . . .> > So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired > their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but> maybe next time they should stick to confetti.>
ITS A FREAKING WEDDING FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, AND I'M SURE ITS NOT THE FIRST TIME SHOTS WERE FIRED AT A WEDDING IN CELEBRATION. NOW PEOPLE HAVE TO CHANGE THE WAY THEY CELEBRATE BECAUSE TRIGGER HAPPY AMERICAN PLANES MAY BE FLYING UP ABOVE?? DO I EVEN NEED TO MENTION THE 4 CANADIAN SOLDIERS THAT WERE WRONGFULLY BOMBED UPON BY A, YES, AMERICAN PLANE? DID YOU GUYS EVEN KNOW OF THAT BOMBING?
> AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot.> That it didn't is a sign of strength.
I'M SURE THERE ARE MANY NATIONS THAT CAN JUST AS EASILY TURN THE US INTO ONE LARGE GOLF COURSE, WHATS HIS POINT HERE? THAT THE US IS OH SO PATIENT? PLEASE, A LOAD OF BULLSH!T IF YOU ASK ME (AND YOU DID BTW).
American voices are already being > raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for. How many> in > the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered> innocents> of 9/11?
WOULD AMERICAN TV'S TELL US IF THEY DID?
> > When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving > Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that - and> didn't push the button.
OK, THIS LITTLE BIT OF BS REALLY PISSED ME OFF. FIRST OFF, US TELEVISIONS DO NOT HAVE TO AIR THE DATE OF A CLIP WHEN THEY SHOW IT ON US AIR WAVES. MEANING, THOSE "LIVE" SHOTS OF "PALESTINI" PEOPLE DANCING ON THE STREETS THE DAY OF THE 9/11 ATTACKS, COULD BE FOOTAGE FROM MONTHS, YEARS, OR EVEN WEEKS EARLIER, FOOTAGE OF THAT COUNTRY ELEBRATING A WORLD CUP BIRTH (YOU GET MY POINT).
We should thank the stars that America is the most> > powerful nation in the world.
KISS MY AS$,
I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not> > provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism." A real war.>
IT DIDN'T PROVOKE A WAR? STRANGE, THE ROCK I'VE BEEN SLEEPING UNDER MUST BE TELLING ME OTHERWISE <<<<<YES, MORE SARCASM
> The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell," if> > America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell > like you wouldn't believe.>
SO, IS HE IN FAVOR OF OPENING THE GATES OF HELL, OR WHAT? THAT WAS SUCH A STUPID, RUN AROUND THE BUSH STATEMENT.
> The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of> the earth.
REALLY, HOW CAN HE PROVE THIS? CHINA HAS, WHAT, 2 OUT OF THE 6 BILLION PEOPLE THAT INHABIT THE EARTH? NOT TO MENTION THE LARGEST AMOUNT OF LAND IN ASIA? AND HAS ANYONE EVER INVADED CHINA TO SEE THEIR WEAPONS OF DESTRUCTION? WHERE IS HALF THE CRAP WE BUY, MADE IN? CHINA, TAIWAN, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THEY ARE NOT CAPABLE OF MAKING THEIR OWN NUCLEAR WEAPONS? MORE MISLEADING INFORMATION, ALSO KNOW AS
PROPAGANDA
The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and> > the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived.> > But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched> > countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the > Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand -assuming you> haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.>
THAT LAST BIT WAS JUST PLAIN OLD DISTASTEFUL, AND MEANINGLESS. I'M SURE THAILAND HAS SOME OF THE STRICTEST AND TOUGHEST LAWS IN THE WORLD, BUT YOU DON'T SEE THIS POMPOUS JERK THROWING INSULTS AT THEM.
> I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle.> > But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh.
HE RATHER BE A DOG, OVER A PRINCE? DO I REALLY NEED TO GO ON?
> Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be -> rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or > religion, or some caste system.
HE MAY HAVE A POINT HERE, I'LL GIVE HIM THIS ONE.
honestly, I don't have much more patience to pick apart this article filled with PROPAGANDA. Whether or not you guys agree with me, is, not my loss, and I'm not trying to pursuade anyone to see this issue the way I do. The truth is, there is 2 sides to every story, a lesson well learned very early in my life (and I'm sure many of you know about). Typing this reply is very exhausting and tiresom, and I really have nothing to benefit from it. My point is, keep your eyes open, and don't believe everything you hear on CNN.
I am not a muslim. In fact, I am a Roman Catholic, living in Canada. I am not Chinese, as it may seem like from some of my statements, nor I am even remotely oriental. I am not from Afganistan, or the middle east (obviously). I'm just trying to prove that my opinion is not biased, and although it may not seem like it, I am a friend of my American niegbors, and only wish the best for them. I hate war, hate the resolutions the US has come to, and just don't believe in the eye for an eye attitude most Americans have inherited.
Politics and cars don't mix, I think I'm done with this thread. Take it easy big J, I ain't trying to start a battle with you.
Big P <<<<<<P for pen15!!!
LOL, its really for
PauL
take it ease
And exactly a year ago, thousands> > of ordinary men, women and children - not just Americans, but from dozens> of> countries, were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics. Are we> so> quick to betray them? <<<< YES, WELL, THIS GUY FAILED TO MENTION ALL THE ATTACKS ON MUSLIMS MOSQUES (sp?) AND PERSONAL ATTACKS ON MUSLIMS IN GENERAL SHORTLY AFTER THE ATTACKS?
PROPAGANDA, YES
> What touched the heart about those who died in the Twin Towers and on the > planes, was that we recognized them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody's> > son and somebody's daughter, husbands, wives, and children, some unborn.> > And these people brought it on themselves? Their nation is to blame for > their meticulously planned slaughter?>
GIMME A BREAK, DO YOU REALLY WANT TO BLAME IRAQ AS A WHOLE, OR IN PARTICULAR, BIN LADEN OR SADDAM, FOR THE ACTS OF A CLAN OF FANATICS??? BOMBING HALF OF AFGANISTAN TO FIND ONE PERSON, WHO IS A RELATIVE OF A BUSINESS ALY OF THE PRESIDENT?
PROPAGANDA, YES
> These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul > orKarachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan.
PRPOGANDA, NO
The> anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the > Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering> from > power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes> > without having to ask permission.>
THAT IS A STUPID REMARK ALL TOGETHER
> The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since > September 11.> > Remember, remember -> > Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to> say,> "I love you," before they were burned alive.> > Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning > skyscrapers.> > Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive.> > Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of> > the planes with her mum.> > Remember, remember -> > And realize that America has never retaliated for 9/11 in anything like> the > way it could have.>
ALL THOSE BOMBS DROPPED ON AFGANISTAN WAS A PEACEFUL RESTRAINT??? DAMN, I'D HATE TO SEE HOW LOW BUSH WOULD GO IF YOU REALLY PISSED HIM OFF
PROPAGANDA, YES
> So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked without a trial in Camp X-ray? Pass> > the Kleenex . . .> > So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired > their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but> maybe next time they should stick to confetti.>
ITS A FREAKING WEDDING FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, AND I'M SURE ITS NOT THE FIRST TIME SHOTS WERE FIRED AT A WEDDING IN CELEBRATION. NOW PEOPLE HAVE TO CHANGE THE WAY THEY CELEBRATE BECAUSE TRIGGER HAPPY AMERICAN PLANES MAY BE FLYING UP ABOVE?? DO I EVEN NEED TO MENTION THE 4 CANADIAN SOLDIERS THAT WERE WRONGFULLY BOMBED UPON BY A, YES, AMERICAN PLANE? DID YOU GUYS EVEN KNOW OF THAT BOMBING?
> AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot.> That it didn't is a sign of strength.
I'M SURE THERE ARE MANY NATIONS THAT CAN JUST AS EASILY TURN THE US INTO ONE LARGE GOLF COURSE, WHATS HIS POINT HERE? THAT THE US IS OH SO PATIENT? PLEASE, A LOAD OF BULLSH!T IF YOU ASK ME (AND YOU DID BTW).
American voices are already being > raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for. How many> in > the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered> innocents> of 9/11?
WOULD AMERICAN TV'S TELL US IF THEY DID?
> > When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving > Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that - and> didn't push the button.
OK, THIS LITTLE BIT OF BS REALLY PISSED ME OFF. FIRST OFF, US TELEVISIONS DO NOT HAVE TO AIR THE DATE OF A CLIP WHEN THEY SHOW IT ON US AIR WAVES. MEANING, THOSE "LIVE" SHOTS OF "PALESTINI" PEOPLE DANCING ON THE STREETS THE DAY OF THE 9/11 ATTACKS, COULD BE FOOTAGE FROM MONTHS, YEARS, OR EVEN WEEKS EARLIER, FOOTAGE OF THAT COUNTRY ELEBRATING A WORLD CUP BIRTH (YOU GET MY POINT).
We should thank the stars that America is the most> > powerful nation in the world.
KISS MY AS$,
I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not> > provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism." A real war.>
IT DIDN'T PROVOKE A WAR? STRANGE, THE ROCK I'VE BEEN SLEEPING UNDER MUST BE TELLING ME OTHERWISE <<<<<YES, MORE SARCASM
> The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell," if> > America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell > like you wouldn't believe.>
SO, IS HE IN FAVOR OF OPENING THE GATES OF HELL, OR WHAT? THAT WAS SUCH A STUPID, RUN AROUND THE BUSH STATEMENT.
> The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of> the earth.
REALLY, HOW CAN HE PROVE THIS? CHINA HAS, WHAT, 2 OUT OF THE 6 BILLION PEOPLE THAT INHABIT THE EARTH? NOT TO MENTION THE LARGEST AMOUNT OF LAND IN ASIA? AND HAS ANYONE EVER INVADED CHINA TO SEE THEIR WEAPONS OF DESTRUCTION? WHERE IS HALF THE CRAP WE BUY, MADE IN? CHINA, TAIWAN, WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THEY ARE NOT CAPABLE OF MAKING THEIR OWN NUCLEAR WEAPONS? MORE MISLEADING INFORMATION, ALSO KNOW AS
PROPAGANDA
The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and> > the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived.> > But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched> > countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the > Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand -assuming you> haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.>
THAT LAST BIT WAS JUST PLAIN OLD DISTASTEFUL, AND MEANINGLESS. I'M SURE THAILAND HAS SOME OF THE STRICTEST AND TOUGHEST LAWS IN THE WORLD, BUT YOU DON'T SEE THIS POMPOUS JERK THROWING INSULTS AT THEM.
> I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle.> > But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh.
HE RATHER BE A DOG, OVER A PRINCE? DO I REALLY NEED TO GO ON?
> Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be -> rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or > religion, or some caste system.
HE MAY HAVE A POINT HERE, I'LL GIVE HIM THIS ONE.
honestly, I don't have much more patience to pick apart this article filled with PROPAGANDA. Whether or not you guys agree with me, is, not my loss, and I'm not trying to pursuade anyone to see this issue the way I do. The truth is, there is 2 sides to every story, a lesson well learned very early in my life (and I'm sure many of you know about). Typing this reply is very exhausting and tiresom, and I really have nothing to benefit from it. My point is, keep your eyes open, and don't believe everything you hear on CNN.
I am not a muslim. In fact, I am a Roman Catholic, living in Canada. I am not Chinese, as it may seem like from some of my statements, nor I am even remotely oriental. I am not from Afganistan, or the middle east (obviously). I'm just trying to prove that my opinion is not biased, and although it may not seem like it, I am a friend of my American niegbors, and only wish the best for them. I hate war, hate the resolutions the US has come to, and just don't believe in the eye for an eye attitude most Americans have inherited.
Politics and cars don't mix, I think I'm done with this thread. Take it easy big J, I ain't trying to start a battle with you.
Big P <<<<<<P for pen15!!!
LOL, its really for
PauL
take it ease