here's something a friend of mine found:
why saddam is in power...
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeldshaking hands with Iraqi dictatorSaddam Hussein in 1983
1963 Qassem was overthrown - with the help of the CIA unclassified document shows fear of "communist" threat Real threat was nationalizing oil 1968 Saddam Hussein consolidates power in bloody CIA coup 1972 Saddam Hussein nationalizes oil, upsets West U.S. increases support to Iran CIA dictatorship for those who want to know what they are toldlisten
for those who want to know where the weapons come from... look...
"An eight-year-old Senate report confirms that disease- producing and poisonous materials were exported, under U.S. government license, to Iraq from 1985 to 1988 during the Iran-Iraq war. Furthermore, the report adds, the American- exported materials were identical to microorganisms destroyed by United Nations inspectors after the Gulf War. The shipments were approved despite allegations that Saddam used biological weapons against Kurdish rebels and (according to the current official U.S. position) initiated war with Iran."spark an intrest? learn more
"MOSCOW - When George H. W. Bush ordered American forces to the Persian Gulf – to reverse Iraq's August 1990 invasion of Kuwait – part of the administration case was that an Iraqi juggernaut was also threatening to roll into Saudi Arabia.
Citing top-secret satellite images, Pentagon officials estimated in mid–September that up to 250,000 Iraqi troops and 1,500 tanks stood on the border, threatening the key US oil supplier.
But when the St. Petersburg Times in Florida acquired two commercial Soviet satellite images of the same area, taken at the same time, no Iraqi troops were visible near the Saudi border – just empty desert"___
"Since then, Iraqi reports of many civilian deaths tied to UN sanctions - especially those of small children - have become suspect as well.
Based on past experience, some observers are also suspicious of US assertions. Prior to the Gulf War, a Kuwait teenager testified to Congress that she witnessed Iraqi troops taking infants from incubators and leaving them to die.
It turned out that the girl - the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the US - had never worked at the hospital, and that a Washington public relations firm had arranged her testimony to build political support for US intervention."
Another Iraq thread... don't read it if politics offend you!
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skydragoness
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skydragoness
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BB Turbo H C S15 wrote:Well, yes, i am 15, and if this war goes, there is a possibility that i could even be drafted, in the event if i do get drafted, if thats possible, i would go serve my country. Even though that is a slim chance but if was ever to get drafted, i would not be scared.
Doing your duty is a good thing. However, there is an adage that only the foolish are not scared before battle. Courage is the conquering of fear. Don't be foolish. Be aware and beware.
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s14=pimpin'
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One man playing God, putting all these innocent lives in the palm of his hands, and takes advice from the rest of the world with a grain of salt.
Saddam and bin laden a terrorists? Bush is right up there with the likes of them. Who the hell gives him the right to do anything he wants, against the advice of allies and the rest of the world.
All i am thinking about are the innocent lives which be affected directly and indirectly as a result of bush's selfishness. i am sick and tired of this "Eye for an eye" bullsh!t. We wouldn't have much of a world left if that was everyone's opinion and way to solve issues.
i understand that you guys have to support any decision your "Great" a$$ of a leader makes, which is fine, i haven't changed my opinion of any of you, but i only read the first page (and skipped the long first post, sorry maine).
Anyway, call me a crazy tree hugging, hippie canuck, that won't bother me. I really believe the issues can be resolved in a more peaceful manner, too bad President pubes doesn't want to hear it, and neither do I, since i won't be returning to this thread.
take it easy guys, the only people who win from war are the hungry business men (tyrants) who will be making millions off the blood of thousands of innocent lives.
its really not worth it in my humble opinion.
Saddam and bin laden a terrorists? Bush is right up there with the likes of them. Who the hell gives him the right to do anything he wants, against the advice of allies and the rest of the world.
All i am thinking about are the innocent lives which be affected directly and indirectly as a result of bush's selfishness. i am sick and tired of this "Eye for an eye" bullsh!t. We wouldn't have much of a world left if that was everyone's opinion and way to solve issues.
i understand that you guys have to support any decision your "Great" a$$ of a leader makes, which is fine, i haven't changed my opinion of any of you, but i only read the first page (and skipped the long first post, sorry maine).
Anyway, call me a crazy tree hugging, hippie canuck, that won't bother me. I really believe the issues can be resolved in a more peaceful manner, too bad President pubes doesn't want to hear it, and neither do I, since i won't be returning to this thread.
take it easy guys, the only people who win from war are the hungry business men (tyrants) who will be making millions off the blood of thousands of innocent lives.
its really not worth it in my humble opinion.
Face it, bud, the genie is out of the bottle. More likely: "N. Korea drops nuclear bomb on US. Thousands dead! Bush is blamed for misplacing priorities."b240 wrote:News Headline: (sometime in the future) IRAQ drops nuke on US! Millions Dead! Bush is blamed for being a "peaceful pu$$y"
=\
just a thought.
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Rockenreno
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s14=pimpin' wrote:One man playing God, putting all these innocent lives in the palm of his hands, and takes advice from the rest of the world with a grain of salt.
Saddam and bin laden a terrorists? Bush is right up there with the likes of them. Who the hell gives him the right to do anything he wants, against the advice of allies and the rest of the world.
All i am thinking about are the innocent lives which be affected directly and indirectly as a result of bush's selfishness. i am sick and tired of this "Eye for an eye" bullsh!t. We wouldn't have much of a world left if that was everyone's opinion and way to solve issues.
i understand that you guys have to support any decision your "Great" a$$ of a leader makes, which is fine, i haven't changed my opinion of any of you, but i only read the first page (and skipped the long first post, sorry maine).
Anyway, call me a crazy tree hugging, hippie canuck, that won't bother me. I really believe the issues can be resolved in a more peaceful manner, too bad President pubes doesn't want to hear it, and neither do I, since i won't be returning to this thread.
take it easy guys, the only people who win from war are the hungry business men (tyrants) who will be making millions off the blood of thousands of innocent lives.
its really not worth it in my humble opinion.
It sounds to me like you don't even want to hear all the facts, which is very disappointing. This is the problem with many anti-war protestors, they don't want wat but they won't offer any alternative. And no, anything is not better than war. I don't trust Saddam one ounce. I think we should have got rid of him years ago, but things are not so easy. The USA:patriot is going through the correct line of actions before making any rash decisions as to war. We have been inspecting their facilities for years, going through the UN, and listening to the opinions of the rest of the world. The problem is, this has led nowhere.
I have no doubt that Iraq has weapons they shouldn't have, and there are billions of people who agree with me I am sure. We have waited long and hard for Saddam to comply with ultimatums: he never does, and we never back up our word on it so that those against war don't get pissed off at us. We have given him plenty of time, he has responded by insulting our intelligence with lies and other farces. Enough is enough. I support our choice, whether it is war or not, because I have confidence that we are doing everything we can to avoid conflict. If there is war, don't blame the USA, blame Saddam. Remember, there are many countries standing by us in this.
To think... all Saddam has to do is follow a friggin treaty and we're done. Disarm a few bombs and we leave him alone... he's the bad guy, not Bush. Bush is stuck between a rock and a hard place. If Saddam doesn't cooperate then Bush either has to sit back and watch Saddam terrorize the world (he will) or lose the support of millions by doing what he know must be done: disarm or dethrone Saddam.
War is not a desirable ends by any means, but if it comes down to it, I have no qualms going in there. Sorry if my post is incoherent at all
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Rockenreno
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WDRacing
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s14=pimpin' wrote:One man playing God, putting all these innocent lives in the palm of his hands, and takes advice from the rest of the world with a grain of salt.
Saddam and bin laden a terrorists? Bush is right up there with the likes of them. Who the hell gives him the right to do anything he wants, against the advice of allies and the rest of the world.
All i am thinking about are the innocent lives which be affected directly and indirectly as a result of bush's selfishness. i am sick and tired of this "Eye for an eye" bullsh!t. We wouldn't have much of a world left if that was everyone's opinion and way to solve issues.
i understand that you guys have to support any decision your "Great" a$$ of a leader makes, which is fine, i haven't changed my opinion of any of you, but i only read the first page (and skipped the long first post, sorry maine).
Anyway, call me a crazy tree hugging, hippie canuck, that won't bother me. I really believe the issues can be resolved in a more peaceful manner, too bad President pubes doesn't want to hear it, and neither do I, since i won't be returning to this thread.
take it easy guys, the only people who win from war are the hungry business men (tyrants) who will be making millions off the blood of thousands of innocent lives.
its really not worth it in my humble opinion.
Gee, lets post somthing in a thread and not even read the first post. Let alone the following posts. Saying Bush is equal to bin laden or Saddam is completely ignorant. If Bush would drop a BLU82 on MECCA during worship hours, then and only then could he be compared.
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WDRacing
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b240 wrote:News Headline: (sometime in the future) IRAQ drops nuke on US! Millions Dead! Bush is blamed for being a "peaceful pu$$y"
=\
just a thought.
Some people need to be hit with a sledghammer before they get the point...911. It's already just a matter of time before the next terrorlst activity happens in the US. Of course there will be some people (VJ) who will probably blame that on Bush for continuing on with this WAR. These people fail to realize that it's going to continue to happen whether or not we invade Saudi again.
I'm not saying N.Korea is just going to lie down. They scare me more then Saddam and all his chemicals. But they're not stupid either. Keep developing nuclear weapons and even China is going to have a problem with them.
WD
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AZhitman
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VimyJ wrote:Now, forgive me if I'm wrong but, aren't you a cop?
What happened to all that neo conservative, "We are not the world's policman" stuff?
Mike - I have made it abundantly clear NUMEROUS times here that I am NOT a cop. S14 and Tino have never gotten it through their thick skulls, but apparently it's epidemic. I have a law enforcement background but am employed in an oversight capacity by the AZ Supreme Court. You're forgiven, though. First time you've been wrong that I can remember...
I certinaly hope you're not attributing that "world's policeman" statement or philosophy to me! I have also stated SEVERAL times that with great power comes great responsibility, and that one of the US's responsibilities is to ensure that ALL people are treated humanely and that democracy, freedom and liberty are within reach of all peoples. BTW, that's FAR from a conservative notion, and even FURTHER from a Republican standpoint.
Take care.
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nissanrcer240
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Quote »Gee, lets post somthing in a thread and not even read the first post. Let alone the following posts. Saying Bush is equal to bin laden or Saddam is completely ignorant. If Bush would drop a BLU82 on MECCA during worship hours, then and only then could he be compared.[/quote]
:Werd /\
:patriot need i say more? USA USA USA
:Werd /\
:patriot need i say more? USA USA USA
Unfortunately, there are peoples, organizations and religions that view the US ideal of liberty as a defilement of their faith.
They don't want our ideals of freedom. Our freedom is evil incarnate to them. He speaks of spreading freedom to inspire the US population to send it's troops out as missionaries of liberty when he should know the enemy is sickened by the very thought of the West's individualism.
Wrong-O-Matic. In a big way.
Their LEADERS (oppressors is a better word) are fearful of our ideals of freedom. Such freedoms undermine their power and reveal them to be what they are: Bullies who twist "religion" and employ threats to control their population. That's not freedom, and liberty is an anathaema to such. The populace, on the other hand, would LOVE to experience the freedom and opportunities we take for granted.
No Muslim I have EVER met feels that the US ideal of freedom is a "defilement of their faith" as you said. Radical Islam, on the other hand, is certainly anti-personal freedoms, but then again it is a basdtardization to begin with. Muslims may not approve of many things inherent in US culture, but our freedoms and liberties are NOT one of them - it's actualy a fairly liberalized faith.
Ask ANY Iraqi citizen where they'd rather live/be educated/worship/raise their children - If they can get over the fear of being executed for responding honestly, they'll take that ticket to the US anyday.
They don't want our ideals of freedom. Our freedom is evil incarnate to them. He speaks of spreading freedom to inspire the US population to send it's troops out as missionaries of liberty when he should know the enemy is sickened by the very thought of the West's individualism.
Wrong-O-Matic. In a big way.
Their LEADERS (oppressors is a better word) are fearful of our ideals of freedom. Such freedoms undermine their power and reveal them to be what they are: Bullies who twist "religion" and employ threats to control their population. That's not freedom, and liberty is an anathaema to such. The populace, on the other hand, would LOVE to experience the freedom and opportunities we take for granted.
No Muslim I have EVER met feels that the US ideal of freedom is a "defilement of their faith" as you said. Radical Islam, on the other hand, is certainly anti-personal freedoms, but then again it is a basdtardization to begin with. Muslims may not approve of many things inherent in US culture, but our freedoms and liberties are NOT one of them - it's actualy a fairly liberalized faith.
Ask ANY Iraqi citizen where they'd rather live/be educated/worship/raise their children - If they can get over the fear of being executed for responding honestly, they'll take that ticket to the US anyday.
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Movingviolation240
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Why dose this keep going back to the election thing? Remember his Dad went to war with Iraq, people said he did it for the votes, and you remember what happened to him when he tried to get re-elected. I personally think his son is a pretty smart guy, so I would think that he'd learn somthing from how his dad lost and not make the same 'mistake' again.
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AZhitman
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Unfortunately, there are peoples, organizations and religions that view the US ideal of liberty as a defilement of their faith.
They don't want our ideals of freedom. Our freedom is evil incarnate to them. He speaks of spreading freedom to inspire the US population to send it's troops out as missionaries of liberty when he should know the enemy is sickened by the very thought of the West's individualism.
Wrong-O-Matic. In a big way.
Their LEADERS (oppressors is a better word) are fearful of our ideals of freedom. Such freedoms undermine their power and reveal them to be what they are: Bullies who twist "religion" and employ threats to control their population. That's not freedom, and liberty is an anathaema to such. The populace, on the other hand, would LOVE to experience the freedom and opportunities we take for granted.
No Muslim I have EVER met feels that the US ideal of freedom is a "defilement of their faith" as you said. Radical Islam, on the other hand, is certainly anti-personal freedoms, but then again it is a basdtardization to begin with. Muslims may not approve of many things inherent in US culture, but our freedoms and liberties are NOT one of them - it's actualy a fairly liberalized faith.
Ask ANY Iraqi citizen where they'd rather live/be educated/worship/raise their children - If they can get over the fear of being executed for responding honestly, they'll take that ticket to the US anyday.
They don't want our ideals of freedom. Our freedom is evil incarnate to them. He speaks of spreading freedom to inspire the US population to send it's troops out as missionaries of liberty when he should know the enemy is sickened by the very thought of the West's individualism.
Wrong-O-Matic. In a big way.
Their LEADERS (oppressors is a better word) are fearful of our ideals of freedom. Such freedoms undermine their power and reveal them to be what they are: Bullies who twist "religion" and employ threats to control their population. That's not freedom, and liberty is an anathaema to such. The populace, on the other hand, would LOVE to experience the freedom and opportunities we take for granted.
No Muslim I have EVER met feels that the US ideal of freedom is a "defilement of their faith" as you said. Radical Islam, on the other hand, is certainly anti-personal freedoms, but then again it is a basdtardization to begin with. Muslims may not approve of many things inherent in US culture, but our freedoms and liberties are NOT one of them - it's actualy a fairly liberalized faith.
Ask ANY Iraqi citizen where they'd rather live/be educated/worship/raise their children - If they can get over the fear of being executed for responding honestly, they'll take that ticket to the US anyday.
AZ, what happened to my actual post that is quoted in a post with my name attached? Somehow your optimistic view appears under my name while my points are for the most part gone.VimyJ wrote:Unfortunately, there are peoples, organizations and religions that view the US ideal of liberty as a defilement of their faith.
They don't want our ideals of freedom. Our freedom is evil incarnate to them. He speaks of spreading freedom to inspire the US population to send it's troops out as missionaries of liberty when he should know the enemy is sickened by the very thought of the West's individualism.
Wrong-O-Matic. In a big way.
Their LEADERS (oppressors is a better word) are fearful of our ideals of freedom. Such freedoms undermine their power and reveal them to be what they are: Bullies who twist "religion" and employ threats to control their population. That's not freedom, and liberty is an anathaema to such. The populace, on the other hand, would LOVE to experience the freedom and opportunities we take for granted.
No Muslim I have EVER met feels that the US ideal of freedom is a "defilement of their faith" as you said. Radical Islam, on the other hand, is certainly anti-personal freedoms, but then again it is a basdtardization to begin with. Muslims may not approve of many things inherent in US culture, but our freedoms and liberties are NOT one of them - it's actualy a fairly liberalized faith.
Ask ANY Iraqi citizen where they'd rather live/be educated/worship/raise their children - If they can get over the fear of being executed for responding honestly, they'll take that ticket to the US anyday.
[quote=" AZhitman BWrong-O-Matic. In a big way.
Their LEADERS (oppressors is a better word) are fearful of our ideals of freedom. Such freedoms undermine their power and reveal them to be what they are: Bullies who twist "religion" and employ threats to control their population. That's not freedom, and liberty is an anathaema to such. The populace, on the other hand, would LOVE to experience the freedom and opportunities we take for granted.[/quote]I don't think that most people on the American island understand Islam. There are two forces vying for control of Islamic states. The first is the secular pan Arab socialist party known as the Ba'ath party. Saddam is an exponent of this secular vision which is influenced and came about through Marxist-Lennonism. The second and, IMHO, by far the most dangerous is fundamentalist Islam. Iran is an example of a true theocrratic Islamic state.
Quote »No Muslim I have EVER met feels that the US ideal of freedom is a "defilement of their faith" as you said. Radical Islam, on the other hand, is certainly anti-personal freedoms, but then again it is a basdtardization to begin with. Muslims may not approve of many things inherent in US culture, but our freedoms and liberties are NOT one of them - it's actualy a fairly liberalized faith.[/quote]
You have most probably only met Muslims who live in the US. Bin Laden and his enormous following take great issue with the liberties and resultant decadance of the Western world. True Islam will only accept the rule of the Koran. God's law above all else. Secular rulers such as Saddam will be done away with just like the Western democracies and theocratic goverments installed "God willing". Our concepts of individualism are absolutely against the Muslim world view and this is pounded into the heads of Muslims in moques and Muslim religous schools around the globe by Imams preaching subervience to Allah.
Quote »Ask ANY Iraqi citizen where they'd rather live/be educated/worship/raise their children - If they can get over the fear of being executed for responding honestly, they'll take that ticket to the US anyday.[/quote]What makes any American think that the proud people of the middle east want to be like the United States? They have pride in their nation just like Americans have pride in theirs. Remember, the US came into being because of a tradition of individualism which is the basis of all western civilizations and this was proved by the ultimate failure of Communism. This is not so in Islamic middle eastern countries. Civilization there is viewed as the indivdual being the servant of the Koran. Are Ameicans somehow expecting a reenactment of the the end of WW II with French women showering liberation forces with kisses and flowers? That ain't going to happen. They love their institutions like we love ours and they're not going to give them up without a big fight. Count on it. Afterall, would you surrender your sensibilities and traditions to an invading army of Muslims? No way. To them the US is the "Great Satan".
Freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, freedom of relgion, in short, all our freedoms fly in the face of true Islam. You are fond of saying "it's bikini weather here". Do you realize how unIslamic that statement is? You'd be flogged for saying that in a true Islamic country.
BTW, it's 6 friggin degrees here in Chicagoland, for crying out loud! Global warming is a weird thing. No snow in Alaska for dog sled races and 0F temps in the Midwest in the second week of March.
Their LEADERS (oppressors is a better word) are fearful of our ideals of freedom. Such freedoms undermine their power and reveal them to be what they are: Bullies who twist "religion" and employ threats to control their population. That's not freedom, and liberty is an anathaema to such. The populace, on the other hand, would LOVE to experience the freedom and opportunities we take for granted.[/quote]I don't think that most people on the American island understand Islam. There are two forces vying for control of Islamic states. The first is the secular pan Arab socialist party known as the Ba'ath party. Saddam is an exponent of this secular vision which is influenced and came about through Marxist-Lennonism. The second and, IMHO, by far the most dangerous is fundamentalist Islam. Iran is an example of a true theocrratic Islamic state.
Quote »No Muslim I have EVER met feels that the US ideal of freedom is a "defilement of their faith" as you said. Radical Islam, on the other hand, is certainly anti-personal freedoms, but then again it is a basdtardization to begin with. Muslims may not approve of many things inherent in US culture, but our freedoms and liberties are NOT one of them - it's actualy a fairly liberalized faith.[/quote]
You have most probably only met Muslims who live in the US. Bin Laden and his enormous following take great issue with the liberties and resultant decadance of the Western world. True Islam will only accept the rule of the Koran. God's law above all else. Secular rulers such as Saddam will be done away with just like the Western democracies and theocratic goverments installed "God willing". Our concepts of individualism are absolutely against the Muslim world view and this is pounded into the heads of Muslims in moques and Muslim religous schools around the globe by Imams preaching subervience to Allah.
Quote »Ask ANY Iraqi citizen where they'd rather live/be educated/worship/raise their children - If they can get over the fear of being executed for responding honestly, they'll take that ticket to the US anyday.[/quote]What makes any American think that the proud people of the middle east want to be like the United States? They have pride in their nation just like Americans have pride in theirs. Remember, the US came into being because of a tradition of individualism which is the basis of all western civilizations and this was proved by the ultimate failure of Communism. This is not so in Islamic middle eastern countries. Civilization there is viewed as the indivdual being the servant of the Koran. Are Ameicans somehow expecting a reenactment of the the end of WW II with French women showering liberation forces with kisses and flowers? That ain't going to happen. They love their institutions like we love ours and they're not going to give them up without a big fight. Count on it. Afterall, would you surrender your sensibilities and traditions to an invading army of Muslims? No way. To them the US is the "Great Satan".
Freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, freedom of relgion, in short, all our freedoms fly in the face of true Islam. You are fond of saying "it's bikini weather here". Do you realize how unIslamic that statement is? You'd be flogged for saying that in a true Islamic country.
BTW, it's 6 friggin degrees here in Chicagoland, for crying out loud! Global warming is a weird thing. No snow in Alaska for dog sled races and 0F temps in the Midwest in the second week of March.
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skydragoness
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Ah. no one acknowledged my post. WOOT! i think it is truly worth noting that our country is the reason why Saddam is in power, that most of the weapons were provided by us to attack Iran, and how they whole story about Iraqi soldiers unhooking babies form incubators in a Kuwaiti hospital was all a sham. those things enough make me doubt this war proposal by G.W. As VimyJ said Quote »the 04 election campaign is tentatively slated to start March, 17[/quote] i think that is more than just a coincidence.
if Saddam is such a threat as the government will have us believe, we should have taken care of his *** a long time ago. then it would have never gone on this long, unchecked. terrorism wasn't anything new then, no, it only took 9/11 for the government to figure that out. *please*we all know the WTC has been bombed before, US embassies bombed in Africa and other places, and countless plane hijackings around the world should've have been a ****ing clue.
don't get me wrong. i'm sure saddam is most likely in cahoots with Al Quaeda, and is up to no good. but what are we sending our troops to fight for? what will be the outcome? it is not clear. it can only be negative, and terrorism will still continue after it's all done. let's just twist the knife a little more then so says G.W. --we'll show 'em.
if Saddam is such a threat as the government will have us believe, we should have taken care of his *** a long time ago. then it would have never gone on this long, unchecked. terrorism wasn't anything new then, no, it only took 9/11 for the government to figure that out. *please*we all know the WTC has been bombed before, US embassies bombed in Africa and other places, and countless plane hijackings around the world should've have been a ****ing clue.
don't get me wrong. i'm sure saddam is most likely in cahoots with Al Quaeda, and is up to no good. but what are we sending our troops to fight for? what will be the outcome? it is not clear. it can only be negative, and terrorism will still continue after it's all done. let's just twist the knife a little more then so says G.W. --we'll show 'em.
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AZhitman
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Sorry Mike - Looks like I hit EDIT instead of reply... My bad, and I apologize profusely. Please forgive me - it was actually a pretty solid post.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by VimyJ "]You have most probably only met Muslims who live in the US. Well, duh. I haven't been to Saudi for 12 years. Lots of "imports" here, though - Most work in our ITD department..
Bin Laden and his enormous following take great issue with the liberties and resultant decadance of the Western world. True Islam will only accept the rule of the Koran. God's law above all else. Our concepts of individualism are absolutely against the Muslim world view and this is pounded into the heads of Muslims in moques and Muslim religous schools around the globe by Imams preaching subervience to Allah. I think you're confusing the Islam practiced by billions worldwide with the Islam embraced by bin Laden and other fundamentalist wack-jobs.
What makes any American think that the proud people of the middle east want to be like the United States? They have pride in their nation just like Americans have pride in theirs. They damn well better or they'll be the proud recipients of a blindfold, a cigarette and 4 oz of high-velocity lead.
Remember, the US came into being because of a tradition of individualism which is the basis of all western civilizations and this was proved by the ultimate failure of Communism. Well said and true, so true.
This is not so in Islamic middle eastern countries. Civilization there is viewed as the indivdual being the servant of the Koran. Well, that's much like characterizing Christians as existing only to love and serve others and to worship God - While that's true in it's most stripped-down sense, it misses the point. Nowhere does the Qu'ran preach "subservience" or submission to a repressive or controlling government or leadership (no more than Christianity does). Both encourage respect and support of the "government"such as it is and both believe governments are ordained as a necessity by God.
Are Ameicans somehow expecting a reenactment of the the end of WW II with French women showering liberation forces with kisses and flowers? That ain't going to happen. They love their institutions like we love ours and they're not going to give them up without a big fight. Count on it. Afterall, would you surrender your sensibilities and traditions to an invading army of Muslims? No way. To them the US is the "Great Satan". No, no, no, no, no. Again, I think you're mistaking the "official" version with that of the oppressed masses. For cryin' out loud, Mike, you're a smart guy! Look at what happened in Afghanistan when we slapped the Taliban out of power - Those people rejoiced (albeit quietly) that they could go out in public, shave, learn, read, listen to music, dance, wear normal clothes and makeup and speak their minds! Or was that simply more US propaganda purveyance?
By the way, I don't think our liberation forces are interested in a bunch of sweaty burqua-wearing women expressing their appreciation, LoL.
Freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, freedom of relgion, in short, all our freedoms fly in the face of true Islam. No, those all fly in the face of RADICAL ISLAM. Again, big difference. While Islam has more dogma, ritual and tradition than the watered-down Protestant faiths of most Americans, it is still a religion of peace, acceptance and tolerance.
BTW, it's 6 friggin degrees here in Chicagoland, for crying out loud! Global warming is a weird thing. Global warming doesn't exist. This is a miniscule segment of a normal meteorological cycle that occurs naturally and always has since the dawn of time. Remember learning about the Ice Age? (Sorry, Mike - Had to do it.):D
And it was 81 in Phoenix today - the girlies are out by the pool!
Stay warm - I'm gonna go out and mow the lawn and drink some lemonade.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by VimyJ "]You have most probably only met Muslims who live in the US. Well, duh. I haven't been to Saudi for 12 years. Lots of "imports" here, though - Most work in our ITD department..
Bin Laden and his enormous following take great issue with the liberties and resultant decadance of the Western world. True Islam will only accept the rule of the Koran. God's law above all else. Our concepts of individualism are absolutely against the Muslim world view and this is pounded into the heads of Muslims in moques and Muslim religous schools around the globe by Imams preaching subervience to Allah. I think you're confusing the Islam practiced by billions worldwide with the Islam embraced by bin Laden and other fundamentalist wack-jobs.
What makes any American think that the proud people of the middle east want to be like the United States? They have pride in their nation just like Americans have pride in theirs. They damn well better or they'll be the proud recipients of a blindfold, a cigarette and 4 oz of high-velocity lead.
Remember, the US came into being because of a tradition of individualism which is the basis of all western civilizations and this was proved by the ultimate failure of Communism. Well said and true, so true.
This is not so in Islamic middle eastern countries. Civilization there is viewed as the indivdual being the servant of the Koran. Well, that's much like characterizing Christians as existing only to love and serve others and to worship God - While that's true in it's most stripped-down sense, it misses the point. Nowhere does the Qu'ran preach "subservience" or submission to a repressive or controlling government or leadership (no more than Christianity does). Both encourage respect and support of the "government"such as it is and both believe governments are ordained as a necessity by God.
Are Ameicans somehow expecting a reenactment of the the end of WW II with French women showering liberation forces with kisses and flowers? That ain't going to happen. They love their institutions like we love ours and they're not going to give them up without a big fight. Count on it. Afterall, would you surrender your sensibilities and traditions to an invading army of Muslims? No way. To them the US is the "Great Satan". No, no, no, no, no. Again, I think you're mistaking the "official" version with that of the oppressed masses. For cryin' out loud, Mike, you're a smart guy! Look at what happened in Afghanistan when we slapped the Taliban out of power - Those people rejoiced (albeit quietly) that they could go out in public, shave, learn, read, listen to music, dance, wear normal clothes and makeup and speak their minds! Or was that simply more US propaganda purveyance?
By the way, I don't think our liberation forces are interested in a bunch of sweaty burqua-wearing women expressing their appreciation, LoL.
Freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, freedom of relgion, in short, all our freedoms fly in the face of true Islam. No, those all fly in the face of RADICAL ISLAM. Again, big difference. While Islam has more dogma, ritual and tradition than the watered-down Protestant faiths of most Americans, it is still a religion of peace, acceptance and tolerance.
BTW, it's 6 friggin degrees here in Chicagoland, for crying out loud! Global warming is a weird thing. Global warming doesn't exist. This is a miniscule segment of a normal meteorological cycle that occurs naturally and always has since the dawn of time. Remember learning about the Ice Age? (Sorry, Mike - Had to do it.):D
And it was 81 in Phoenix today - the girlies are out by the pool!
Stay warm - I'm gonna go out and mow the lawn and drink some lemonade.
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MaineExport
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Well, assuming (not conceding) the US put Saddam in power.... all the more moral obligation we have to REMOVE him from power. What.... you've never made a mistake before? And if you have, wouldn't the mature and prudent thing to do.... be taking responsibility for it and correcting it?! :pfaceskydragoness5 wrote:Ah. no one acknowledged my post. WOOT!
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MaineExport
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Oh man Vimy... you deleted your post JUST as I was about to respond..... lame
Anyway, your response was simply, "W Speak."
Again... I forgot that I am incapable of original thought... :rolleyes and that, for some reason, makes the idea wrong. I guess this is because it didn't come from your sources of typical liberal-conspiracy-theorist banter. It MUST be wrong.:thinker
Anyway, your response was simply, "W Speak."
Again... I forgot that I am incapable of original thought... :rolleyes and that, for some reason, makes the idea wrong. I guess this is because it didn't come from your sources of typical liberal-conspiracy-theorist banter. It MUST be wrong.:thinker
AZ, I think you have to review the history of Islam. Islam is not a sort of benign "Ring You Door Bell Have You Read the Watchtower?" type of religion. This is a radical religion that considers all non believers to be infidels that must be destroyed, conquered, erased, converted, whatever....
It was Islam that ended the last vestiges of the Roman Empire. This religion conquered much of Asia and nearly all of Europe. They got as far as the Balkans and look at the crap still going on there. One historian called it, "Islam's bloody borders". Wherever you look, where Islam abuts a differing society there is always war and bloodshed. India and Pakistan, Palestine and Isael, Algeria, all over Africa, the Phillipines, Iran, Egypt, Syria, Cypress, Southeast asia Chechnya and now the US through the 9/11 atrocity (recall the Palestinians dancing in the streets?) are examples of Islam's intolerance.
God is their reason for doing things. The spread of Islam shall not stopped, "God Willing" they say. This is why I'd hate to see W get the US involved in war without the whole of the Western world ready for a big ideological/religous war which are the worst kind. Look at N. Irealand and the sides are both Christian. Islam is not a religion of tolerance. Far, Far from it and now with the infidels poised for invasion of a Muslim nation, it's going to be bad. WW III. Too, friggin interesting by far.
Too bad about my other post.
It was Islam that ended the last vestiges of the Roman Empire. This religion conquered much of Asia and nearly all of Europe. They got as far as the Balkans and look at the crap still going on there. One historian called it, "Islam's bloody borders". Wherever you look, where Islam abuts a differing society there is always war and bloodshed. India and Pakistan, Palestine and Isael, Algeria, all over Africa, the Phillipines, Iran, Egypt, Syria, Cypress, Southeast asia Chechnya and now the US through the 9/11 atrocity (recall the Palestinians dancing in the streets?) are examples of Islam's intolerance.
God is their reason for doing things. The spread of Islam shall not stopped, "God Willing" they say. This is why I'd hate to see W get the US involved in war without the whole of the Western world ready for a big ideological/religous war which are the worst kind. Look at N. Irealand and the sides are both Christian. Islam is not a religion of tolerance. Far, Far from it and now with the infidels poised for invasion of a Muslim nation, it's going to be bad. WW III. Too, friggin interesting by far.
Too bad about my other post.
maineimport wrote:Anyway, your response was simply, "W Speak."
Sorry, that had nothing to do with the preceeding post but with what was supposed to be a different post with an attachment that I can't figure how to send. I'm still working on it.
I'm hoping we can keep these discussions more gentile than the flame war that was erupting in the last war related thread.
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big jon's 240
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Ah. no one acknowledged my post. WOOT! Alow me....i think it is truly worth noting that our country is the reason why Saddam is in power, that most of the weapons were provided by us to attack Iran,
Yes, we helped put saddam in power, but those were different times, with a different enemy. Call it the lesser of two evils. Does that make it right? Probably not, but nobody really new what the man was capable of. If we did, im sure we would have found a better puppet.
Yes we gave him SOME of his weapons, but not with the intent of him gasing his own people. That is exactly how we know he still has the damn things, and knows how to make more.
and how the whole story about Iraqi soldiers unhooking babies form incubators in a Kuwaiti hospital was all a sham.May have been made up, who knows. But i can assure you that saddams army has done much worse those things enough make me doubt this war proposal by G.W. As VimyJ said i think that is more than just a coincidence.
if Saddam is such a threat as the government will have us believe, we should have taken care of his *** a long time ago.
I couldnt agree with you more. However due to politics, and partially due to a little event commonly know as the "highway of death" (often compared to shooting fish in a barrel), we decide to stop at the original goal of liberating kuwait. then it would have never gone on this long, unchecked. terrorism wasn't anything new then, no, it only took 9/11 for the government to figure that out. *please*we all know the WTC has been bombed before, US embassies bombed in Africa and other places, and countless plane hijackings around the world should've have been a ****ing clue.
don't get me wrong. i'm sure saddam is most likely in cahoots with Al Quaeda, and is up to no good. but what are we sending our troops to fight for? what will be the outcome? it is not clear. it can only be negative, and terrorism will still continue after it's all done. let's just twist the knife a little more then so says G.W. --we'll show 'em. [/QUOTE]
Yes, and unfortunatley, it will probably take more deaths before the hippies take their heads out of their asses and realize the MAJORITY of the world is right.
And that little thing about the russian sattellites not seeing the tanks? I KNOW that is a crock for a fact. (russian sattellites are crap anyhow, dont trust them)
Do we really need an excuse to go in and kick him out? No, we already have plenty. And anybody who doesnt think the iraqi people dont want to be liberated, has never talked to someone from iraq. Yet again something i know for a fact.
You start off the post by saying "your friend found this", i say you need new friends! (thats a joke)
regards,Jon
Yes, we helped put saddam in power, but those were different times, with a different enemy. Call it the lesser of two evils. Does that make it right? Probably not, but nobody really new what the man was capable of. If we did, im sure we would have found a better puppet.
Yes we gave him SOME of his weapons, but not with the intent of him gasing his own people. That is exactly how we know he still has the damn things, and knows how to make more.
and how the whole story about Iraqi soldiers unhooking babies form incubators in a Kuwaiti hospital was all a sham.May have been made up, who knows. But i can assure you that saddams army has done much worse those things enough make me doubt this war proposal by G.W. As VimyJ said i think that is more than just a coincidence.
if Saddam is such a threat as the government will have us believe, we should have taken care of his *** a long time ago.
I couldnt agree with you more. However due to politics, and partially due to a little event commonly know as the "highway of death" (often compared to shooting fish in a barrel), we decide to stop at the original goal of liberating kuwait. then it would have never gone on this long, unchecked. terrorism wasn't anything new then, no, it only took 9/11 for the government to figure that out. *please*we all know the WTC has been bombed before, US embassies bombed in Africa and other places, and countless plane hijackings around the world should've have been a ****ing clue.
don't get me wrong. i'm sure saddam is most likely in cahoots with Al Quaeda, and is up to no good. but what are we sending our troops to fight for? what will be the outcome? it is not clear. it can only be negative, and terrorism will still continue after it's all done. let's just twist the knife a little more then so says G.W. --we'll show 'em. [/QUOTE]
Yes, and unfortunatley, it will probably take more deaths before the hippies take their heads out of their asses and realize the MAJORITY of the world is right.
And that little thing about the russian sattellites not seeing the tanks? I KNOW that is a crock for a fact. (russian sattellites are crap anyhow, dont trust them)
Do we really need an excuse to go in and kick him out? No, we already have plenty. And anybody who doesnt think the iraqi people dont want to be liberated, has never talked to someone from iraq. Yet again something i know for a fact.
You start off the post by saying "your friend found this", i say you need new friends! (thats a joke)
regards,Jon
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MaineExport
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Originally posted by VimyJ "]Sorry, that had nothing to do with the preceeding post but with what was supposed to be a different post with an attachment that I can't figure how to send. I'm still working on it.
Sorry.... knee-jerk reaction. The whole Pavlovian thing.
I'm hoping we can keep these discussions more gentile than the flame war that was erupting in the last war related thread.
Alright... I'm holding you to that there little fellah!
Sorry.... knee-jerk reaction. The whole Pavlovian thing.
I'm hoping we can keep these discussions more gentile than the flame war that was erupting in the last war related thread.
Alright... I'm holding you to that there little fellah!
big jon's 240 wrote:Do we really need an excuse to go in and kick him out? No, we already have plenty. And anybody who doesnt think the iraqi people dont want to be liberated, has never talked to someone from iraq. Yet again something i know for a fact.
Excuses to attack Iraq? W is full of lame excuses. What he lacks is credible evidence and legitimacy.
Where is it possible to get the idea that the majority of the world wants a US unilateral invasion of Iraq? The "Coalition of the Willing is only about 40 countries that were bought by the US. Right, Latvia counts as much as China. Most of the world does not want W & Co.'s myopic adventure into imperialism. He knows not what he does.
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big jon's 240
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Excuses to attack Iraq? W is full of lame excuses. What he lacks is credible evidence and legitimacy.
We have plenty of credible evidence, Just cause you hav'nt seen it, doesnt mean that it doesnt exist. The United States intelligence apparatus is too large to be able to make up a "story" about Iraq's WMD.
Where is it possible to get the idea that the majority of the world wants a US unilateral invasion of Iraq? The "Coalition of the Willing is only about 40 countries that were bought by the US.
Right, and how much are countries going for these days? I'll have to look into picking one up
Right, Latvia counts as much as China.
Latvia=Free democratic countryChina=Communist regime.....Enough said.Does a country's size and population make its opinion more or less important? In that case lets put all the most populous countries in charge of the UN.
Most of the world does not want W & Co.'s myopic adventure into imperialism. He knows not what he does.
I would beg to differ about that. If the entire world knew the truth, it would be overwhelmingly in support of ousting saddam.
I always like the "imperialism" approach. Do you honestly think we are going to go into Iraq, take over the country, and keep all their oil and money for ourself? Give me a break, it would never happen.
There is a reason we are the only superpower left in the world. Democracy is a great thing, and it has already proven to be more effective than that "experiment" in communism known as the USSR.
Do you realize that if you were in iraq, you would already be dead if you vocally disagreed with the government like you do?
Jon
We have plenty of credible evidence, Just cause you hav'nt seen it, doesnt mean that it doesnt exist. The United States intelligence apparatus is too large to be able to make up a "story" about Iraq's WMD.
Where is it possible to get the idea that the majority of the world wants a US unilateral invasion of Iraq? The "Coalition of the Willing is only about 40 countries that were bought by the US.
Right, and how much are countries going for these days? I'll have to look into picking one up
Right, Latvia counts as much as China.
Latvia=Free democratic countryChina=Communist regime.....Enough said.Does a country's size and population make its opinion more or less important? In that case lets put all the most populous countries in charge of the UN.
Most of the world does not want W & Co.'s myopic adventure into imperialism. He knows not what he does.
I would beg to differ about that. If the entire world knew the truth, it would be overwhelmingly in support of ousting saddam.
I always like the "imperialism" approach. Do you honestly think we are going to go into Iraq, take over the country, and keep all their oil and money for ourself? Give me a break, it would never happen.
There is a reason we are the only superpower left in the world. Democracy is a great thing, and it has already proven to be more effective than that "experiment" in communism known as the USSR.
Do you realize that if you were in iraq, you would already be dead if you vocally disagreed with the government like you do?
Jon