I think slw was being sarcastic maine (I hope). If not then his screen name is fitting not only to his car but his intellect. If adults stepped aside and let kids exercise 100% free will they would be horrible parents and have dumb underdeveloped kids which would grow into dumb underdeveloped adults (anyone see Michael Jackson on TV lately).
We tend to take this "rights" issue too far at times. We Americans feel that every thing we disagree with infringes on our rights to do A or B. My son has the right to do what I say and the right to do what he wants as long as it is in accordance with what I said. He also has the right to disobey and the privilege to suffer the consequences. As he gains knowledge, good judgment and my trust my influence will be needed less and less. Digressing....
As far as prayer in schools...I say allow it but don't force it. I don't think that if my kid wants to offer a prayer to give thanks for his lunch he should risk getting disciplined. I played football and wrestled in high school. After practice and before and after a game/match we said the Lord’s Prayer. I didn’t participate in this not because I don’t like to pray but because it was done so irreverently (rushed and muttered) and reciting a memorized prayer isn’t helpful to me. I suggested that we all say our own prayers and was rebuked by the football coached and embraced by the wrestling coach. I didn’t like feeling like I HAD to say the Lord’s Prayer and no coach, principal or other administrator should have the authority to make one voice a prayer.
a petition to put prayer back in schools.
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Rockenreno
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I think it is fine for someone to pray on their own time during school (recess, lunch, in between classes). My only issue is with set-aside time during the day which is designed for prayer. This becomes uncomfortable and unfair to the non-religious.deesolballs wrote:I say allow it but don't force it. I don't think that if my kid wants to offer a prayer to give thanks for his lunch he should risk getting disciplined.
Quote »I played football and wrestled in high school. After practice and before and after a game/match we said the Lord’s Prayer. ...I didn’t like feeling like I HAD to say the Lord’s Prayer and no coach, principal or other administrator should have the authority to make one voice a prayer. [/quote]That is an excellent point to which I agree 100%. I have never liked prayer in sports, good thing I was a band nerd
no guys i was being serious, but dees brought up a good point that i had over looked, it is the parents responsiblity to make sure that their children are educated properly, this means the child should be schooled, but shouldnt be force to attend a school, a public one at that, they should be able to freely learn in the home or a library, the parent should see to this.. the state or federal gov shouldnt be aloud to force you into a institution or require that yuo know certain things or learn certain things, that should be up to the parent, why should a person have to be raised to be a intelectual, if there parents are ignorant useless white trash then the child would show their faults in upbrining, thus bringing shame upon the famliy making them not wanting to have a worthless leech of a child and the family would work with that child to make sure he was productive in society, but of course it doesnt work.. so fall in line single file and, mindlessly say the pledge of alligence, sit down shut up, and dont ask anymore questions !
im not on the fence with these issuses i disagree stronly with prayer in school circulums
and i agree kids should be required some sort of education
im not on the fence with these issuses i disagree stronly with prayer in school circulums
and i agree kids should be required some sort of education
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MaineExport
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Originally posted by Rockenreno "]maine, while I appreciate your counter-argument, I do not think it applies to this situation at all. We go to school to LEARN, not to pray. Thus we are making the choice to learn at school, and although we are forced to attend, we aren't forced to learn.
I was merely playing devil's advocate. Though in reality, you really are forced to learn. You have to sit through class, and your performance is always being 'tested'. If you are not proceeding along successfully, certain measures are taken... including repeating a grade if need be.
Your argument basically could be transferred over saying that when someone goes to church they are unrightfully being FORCED to pray.
No, becasue people go to church on their own accord (in this country). They are actively participating and they are there for that purpose. A lot of students are in school against their will... but as I said in a pevious post... I'm glad they are there.
Anyway, like I said, your argument doesn't make much sense to me since school is a place to learn.
God knows we can't learn from prayer. :rolleyes
Again, I'm just pointing out another side to the argument. I totally agree that prayer shouldn't be mandated in school. But I still stand by my original post.
I was merely playing devil's advocate. Though in reality, you really are forced to learn. You have to sit through class, and your performance is always being 'tested'. If you are not proceeding along successfully, certain measures are taken... including repeating a grade if need be.
Your argument basically could be transferred over saying that when someone goes to church they are unrightfully being FORCED to pray.
No, becasue people go to church on their own accord (in this country). They are actively participating and they are there for that purpose. A lot of students are in school against their will... but as I said in a pevious post... I'm glad they are there.
Anyway, like I said, your argument doesn't make much sense to me since school is a place to learn.
God knows we can't learn from prayer. :rolleyes
Again, I'm just pointing out another side to the argument. I totally agree that prayer shouldn't be mandated in school. But I still stand by my original post.
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Rockenreno
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maineimport wrote:(1)I was merely playing devil's advocate. Though in reality, you really are forced to learn. You have to sit through class, and your performance is always being 'tested'. If you are not proceeding along successfully, certain measures are taken... including repeating a grade if need be.
(2)No, becasue people go to church on their own accord (in this country). They are actively participating and they are there for that purpose. A lot of students are in school against their will... but as I said in a pevious post... I'm glad they are there.
(3)God knows we can't learn from prayer. :rolleyes
1) I know you are playing devil's advocate, and I am sort of doing the same thing in return. Some people are forced to pray, and if they don't do it right, they do it again...
2) Lots of people are forced to go to church against their will! I was one of them on a few occasions. I didn't force people to set aside time in church to do math homework! That would be wrong, just as wrong as setting aside time for prayer in school.
3) I don't think we can. I honestly believe religion is just for people who can't grasp that there may not be a deeper meaning to life. That's just my view though, and as long as others respect my view, I do not criticize them for theirs. Worship whoever you want as long as you don't tell me I am a bad person for not being the same as you, I will extend the same courtesy... I don't think people of any religion are bad or worse than I (maybe cults), but I do disagree with them on many things.
I had to argue this in some American Government class in high school. The class was a bunch of BS, but I eventually won the debate... of course... :P
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MasterMan
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maineimport wrote:Well, to play devil's advocate:
Rockin' Rhino said"]No matter what you say about how it is not being forced on kids when they set aside time for prayer, it IS.
Using that kind of logic.. they are also FORCING education on you.
slw240sx shared"]now if i were in a public school in class, i would be extremely offended if we had to take time out to pray or reflect ! that is an intruison on my right to learn.. its is forcing on me somthing
They are forcing you to take time out of your day to eat. Damn those inconsiderate bastards.... that is valuable time that you could spend learning.
Man, high school must have changed since 1994, because the LAST thing we wanted to do was spend time listening to lecture. I would have loved an extra 60 seconds to stay out of the books.... and maybe stare longingly at the girls (as back then reflection and prayer were amongst the last things on my mind!:D )
1) yeah they are forcing education on me, if been suspended for saying "nuts to this im not doing my work ill take the F, then i would go to sleep (not to bother anyone i just didnt feel like working that day)
2) yes they push lunch on us, if i could leave 30 mins earlyer and just not go to lunch i would. i would save my money and eat at home.
but thats just me..
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MasterMan
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slw240sx wrote:but guess what, "US" working folk footing that bill for a education system that isnt working, schools are in extreme debt, scarce budgets(defense expenses are much more important then making sure all our youth even poor or middle class kids are educated properly!!!!) horribly outdated materials and learing enviroments ! under paid teachers, let all goto a school where mold is growing on the ceiling and making kids sick.. or how bout one that the building is falling apart around you, that the entire front of the building is roped of because stuff is falling off, or walls are crumbling in the classrooms, desks made in the 40s and 50s putting 30-40 kids in a class room that only meant to hold 20, bussing white kids 30mins cross town to black neighborhoods and black kids same dissantace to white hoods to make sure ethic diversity quota's are meet.. making kids have to get up at 4 to 5 am just to make it to school to start at 6am..the phasing out of bussing in the toubled parts of town cause the budget wont allow enough money. yet those are the same areas that despartely need education and have no transportation other then busses and they dont run in the areas the kids goto school at
i could go on and on our school system is over 25 million in debt and is prob going to be taken over by the state an further cutbacks will be made !
man u hit it right on, we have a test called fcat in this state, and they couldnt afford the new books to practace out of, so they gave us the old ones from last year (had wrighting in it). also my school has such a bad tirmite problem that book cases just fall apart.. and with all the humidity here mold is everywhere, and to make it worse your allowed 9 days out of school even with a doctors note. So if someone gets sick they dont stay home like they should they are almost FORCED into coming in, if they reach 10 days then they fail.
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Mayhem_J30
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MasterMan wrote:man u hit it right on, we have a test called fcat in this state, and they couldnt afford the new books to practace out of, so they gave us the old ones from last year (had wrighting in it). also my school has such a bad tirmite problem that book cases just fall apart.. and with all the humidity here mold is everywhere, and to make it worse your allowed 9 days out of school even with a doctors note. So if someone gets sick they dont stay home like they should they are almost FORCED into coming in, if they reach 10 days then they fail.
10 Days!! And that's only for a fraction of the year. Think about the workplace. Most people only get 5 DAYS sick time for the ENTIRE year.
For the degrading equipment and stuff you guys are right on. Kentucky is 8 Billion in debt right now(at least what they tell us) and one of their plans to get out of debt in the future is to cut education funding...hmmm...:thinker How is producing morons by the bus load going to help the future of KY? We already have some of the worst education in the country.
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This thread has gotten really interesting - 2 points here:
slw240: It seems you missed a very important lesson along the way (besides punctuation and grammar). Sometimes we are placed into uncomfortable situations in order to test our character. These situations are critical in order to develop integrity and judgement. Ever wonder why boot camp is so difficult?
Perhaps instead of being rebellious and obstinate, you could have embraced this as an opportunity to learn something - At that age, you had NO basis for "believing" or "not believing", so how is it that a seemingly intelligent person would ignore 50% of a viewpoint and risk being uninformed? Someday you'll wish you could go back and do it over again.
RockenReno: I'm curious as to how much of a "deeper meaning of life" there can be without the existence of an intelligent and loving Creator, faith and hope for one's eternity??? I don't want to start a fight here, but without that, we're all just self-serving critters (worms?) on a chaotic clump of dirt spinning aimlessly through a space where nothing really matters. Think about it - Perhaps you meant to say something else.
Reminds me of the knucklehead that once told me "Christianity (or insert another religion) is for people who need a crutch." I had to laugh - I'd say it's FAR more difficult in this day and age to profess and live out one's faith than to claim none at all.
Keep up the good work, y'all!
slw240: It seems you missed a very important lesson along the way (besides punctuation and grammar). Sometimes we are placed into uncomfortable situations in order to test our character. These situations are critical in order to develop integrity and judgement. Ever wonder why boot camp is so difficult?
Perhaps instead of being rebellious and obstinate, you could have embraced this as an opportunity to learn something - At that age, you had NO basis for "believing" or "not believing", so how is it that a seemingly intelligent person would ignore 50% of a viewpoint and risk being uninformed? Someday you'll wish you could go back and do it over again.
RockenReno: I'm curious as to how much of a "deeper meaning of life" there can be without the existence of an intelligent and loving Creator, faith and hope for one's eternity??? I don't want to start a fight here, but without that, we're all just self-serving critters (worms?) on a chaotic clump of dirt spinning aimlessly through a space where nothing really matters. Think about it - Perhaps you meant to say something else.
Reminds me of the knucklehead that once told me "Christianity (or insert another religion) is for people who need a crutch." I had to laugh - I'd say it's FAR more difficult in this day and age to profess and live out one's faith than to claim none at all.
Keep up the good work, y'all!
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MaineExport
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MaineExport
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Anyway.. I'll just repost it and assume it was an error.
2.)Yes, children are forced to go to church by their parents, much for the same reasons the state forces them to go to school.
3.)That paragraph is hypocritical. You say you don't criticize anyone's point of view... yet you say this about the religious, "religion is just for people who can't grasp that there may not be a deeper meaning to life" Well... that sounds rather critical. One might say that the non-religious are ignorant to think that there isn't any deeper meaning to life. So your 'view' is a critical one, and those who don't respect that view are the bad guys?
Rockenreno wrote:2) Lots of people are forced to go to church against their will! I was one of them on a few occasions. I didn't force people to set aside time in church to do math homework! That would be wrong, just as wrong as setting aside time for prayer in school.
3) I don't think we can. I honestly believe religion is just for people who can't grasp that there may not be a deeper meaning to life. That's just my view though, and as long as others respect my view, I do not criticize them for theirs. Worship whoever you want as long as you don't tell me I am a bad person for not being the same as you, I will extend the same courtesy...
2.)Yes, children are forced to go to church by their parents, much for the same reasons the state forces them to go to school.
3.)That paragraph is hypocritical. You say you don't criticize anyone's point of view... yet you say this about the religious, "religion is just for people who can't grasp that there may not be a deeper meaning to life" Well... that sounds rather critical. One might say that the non-religious are ignorant to think that there isn't any deeper meaning to life. So your 'view' is a critical one, and those who don't respect that view are the bad guys?
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Rockenreno
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Maine and AZ:
First off, I would like to assure both of you that I in no way mean to insult anyone, and am very open to listening to your counter-points or different ideas on this matter. This is more of a debate than an argument.
That being said, it is hard to illustrate what I am trying to say. Perhaps I worded it too strongly, and it did come out a little hypocritical. I don't mean to say that people who believe in God, Allah, etc. are weak or anything of that nature. What I mean is that you believe that there is some deeper purpose to life whether it is because you need to believe it in order for life to be worth living or you just believe that's the way it is (I know people who think both ways, each is equally acceptable). As for myself, my PERSONAL belief is that there is no supreme being with a master plan, and as AZ put it so perfectly, "we're all just self-serving critters (worms?) on a chaotic clump of dirt spinning aimlessly through a space where nothing really matters". Sad as it may be in your eyes, that is pretty much how I feel, and it doesn't depress me in the least.
I am by no means demonic or anything of that sort. I am one of the most law-abiding and congenial people you will meet, and I believe I have a great respect for my fellow man. I think life is worth living and making the most of, and that there are certain things, like love, which are emotionally deeper than anything else. I also believe in most principles put forth by such entities as the Church (respect others, don't kill, all the good stuff), but to me this is all common sense set forth by my moral code. Does this mean that there must be a God that wants us to do something here on earth? I don't believe so... I don't feel the Church defines my moral code for many reasons which I can go into, but don't think it is necessary right now. I am very scientifically minded. Over the years I have come to the (tenative and ever-evolving) conclusion that there is not significant evidence or reason for me to believe in that something more to life. Life is just there. Some people make the most of it, others don't. I don't think there is an afterlife, but I also don't think you should mistreat others for personal gain, as I do believe in Karma. We are just like any other creature: we evolved to become what we are and now fight for our survival. And hopefully we can leave this world a better place for the future. There is no glory in doing this, nor reward anywhere (like an afterlife) but the satisfaction one feels inside themselves when they do something good.
Maine- you may think I am ignorant, that is your right as long as you treat me with the dignity and respect I feel I have earned. I don't want to use such a strong word as "ignorant," but I do not believe you are correct in assuming the existence of a God. I do not believe you are dumb or a bad person because of it, but based on my life experiences so far, I can't justify believing in anything but what I have explained. I am only 19, so I still have a long time left to discover the meaning of life, though I don't think God will be my answer.
Feel free to post any comments/questions you have on this, I'll listen and answer to the best of my ability.
I have a question for you though. What is it that makes you believe? I think that this is a very interesting topic to discuss and am anxious to hear your replies...:icesangel
First off, I would like to assure both of you that I in no way mean to insult anyone, and am very open to listening to your counter-points or different ideas on this matter. This is more of a debate than an argument.
That being said, it is hard to illustrate what I am trying to say. Perhaps I worded it too strongly, and it did come out a little hypocritical. I don't mean to say that people who believe in God, Allah, etc. are weak or anything of that nature. What I mean is that you believe that there is some deeper purpose to life whether it is because you need to believe it in order for life to be worth living or you just believe that's the way it is (I know people who think both ways, each is equally acceptable). As for myself, my PERSONAL belief is that there is no supreme being with a master plan, and as AZ put it so perfectly, "we're all just self-serving critters (worms?) on a chaotic clump of dirt spinning aimlessly through a space where nothing really matters". Sad as it may be in your eyes, that is pretty much how I feel, and it doesn't depress me in the least.
I am by no means demonic or anything of that sort. I am one of the most law-abiding and congenial people you will meet, and I believe I have a great respect for my fellow man. I think life is worth living and making the most of, and that there are certain things, like love, which are emotionally deeper than anything else. I also believe in most principles put forth by such entities as the Church (respect others, don't kill, all the good stuff), but to me this is all common sense set forth by my moral code. Does this mean that there must be a God that wants us to do something here on earth? I don't believe so... I don't feel the Church defines my moral code for many reasons which I can go into, but don't think it is necessary right now. I am very scientifically minded. Over the years I have come to the (tenative and ever-evolving) conclusion that there is not significant evidence or reason for me to believe in that something more to life. Life is just there. Some people make the most of it, others don't. I don't think there is an afterlife, but I also don't think you should mistreat others for personal gain, as I do believe in Karma. We are just like any other creature: we evolved to become what we are and now fight for our survival. And hopefully we can leave this world a better place for the future. There is no glory in doing this, nor reward anywhere (like an afterlife) but the satisfaction one feels inside themselves when they do something good.
Maine- you may think I am ignorant, that is your right as long as you treat me with the dignity and respect I feel I have earned. I don't want to use such a strong word as "ignorant," but I do not believe you are correct in assuming the existence of a God. I do not believe you are dumb or a bad person because of it, but based on my life experiences so far, I can't justify believing in anything but what I have explained. I am only 19, so I still have a long time left to discover the meaning of life, though I don't think God will be my answer.
Feel free to post any comments/questions you have on this, I'll listen and answer to the best of my ability.
I have a question for you though. What is it that makes you believe? I think that this is a very interesting topic to discuss and am anxious to hear your replies...:icesangel
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Mayhem_J30
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maineimport wrote:Okay... what gives. My last post on this tread was just deleted. Why? It wasn't AT ALL offensive or rude...
Maine, I sent you an email earlier this afternoon about that post. Guess ya didn't get it.
I had accidentally screwed up your post. I clicked on 'edit' instead of 'quote' and jacked it all up. My bad bro. I just deleted it instead since it was beyond repair by the time I realized it.-
MasterMan
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Mayhem_J30 wrote:10 Days!! And that's only for a fraction of the year. Think about the workplace. Most people only get 5 DAYS sick time for the ENTIRE year.
For the degrading equipment and stuff you guys are right on. Kentucky is 8 Billion in debt right now(at least what they tell us) and one of their plans to get out of debt in the future is to cut education funding...hmmm...:thinker How is producing morons by the bus load going to help the future of KY? We already have some of the worst education in the country.
true 5 days in the work place is alot, but u have to remember your working to make a living, your making money. you have to be there like it or not because you need money to live, and yes kids need schooling to learn so they can get a job and live. but i think school at some point (maby 10th grade?) needs to be more on what kinda work your going to be doing with your life, by about 10th grade you have learned most of the stuff that you can teach in school (english and such.. it was this way for me atleast). i have passed all the standered tests to get out of school and i have a job where im making 20$ an hour wich is more then all my teachers. basicly because im in 11th grade i sit in useless classes for 3 hours (they dont really teach me anything new). the other 3 classes i take at the college wich is nice because im getting my degree and working towards what im going into, i think this should be open to any kid in any state starting in highschool. but this is the problem with school, the administration, and parents sueing the school system over dumb stuff, its getting really bad public school is now like a jail, when its cold out i cant wear a beany (sp?) beacuse they think im in a gang, i cant wear a hat when its hot out (i dont know why) kids cant wear flip flops (they might fall down the stares) no cell phones (even if you have them off) its just all these rules that makes me not want to go to school. its really bad that parents have to sue over ever lil thing now a days its ruining it for everyone. if they let us have some freedom maby kids would want to go to school. its beacuse of these rules that 3 of my friends have droped out (3.0 GPA good kids but they just got sick of administration messing with them all the damn time). sorry for rabling i dont know where im going with this
but im just going on what i have viewed. sorry for the spelling errors, its not the public schools fould i have a learning dissability -
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MaineExport
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MasterMan wrote:all these rules that makes me not want to go to school...... if they let us have some freedom maby kids would want to go to school. its beacuse of these rules that 3 of my friends have droped out (3.0 GPA good kids but they just got sick of administration messing with them all the damn time).
That's understandable; you have a problem with authority not education. This is a pretty common phenomenon... it has been since the dawn of mankind. It happens... I guess the best advice is to play their game. The reward will be yours in the end. There is nothing wrong with accepting boundaries.
As much as we like to think that we are ready to take on the word in 11th grade... there is ALWAYS more to learn. Humble yourself a little and it is amazing what you can learn. I'm 26 and going through my second round of under-grad work. I'm amazed how much more prepared I am to learn now as opposed to when I was 18. I am also EXTREMELY humbled by the level of intellect of my professors. I may not agree with them 100%... but they sure can back up an argument!!
In a nut shell... life sucks then you get a career... retire... spend a few years with no job and joints riddled with arthritis.. then you die. Enjoy it while we still can!!!!
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MaineExport
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Originally posted by Rockenreno "]Maine and AZ:
First off, I would like to assure both of you that I in no way mean to insult anyone,
I know you didn't mean to, and I didn't take it that way. It would take much more than a stranger's opinion to offend me. You are well spoken and I'm fairly certain you meant no disrespect.
What I mean is that you believe that there is some deeper purpose to life whether it is because you need to believe it in order for life to be worth living
Not at all... there is a deeper purpose in life (IMHO), but that is not what gets me out of bed every morning. The fact that I have been given another day to live does that for me.
or you just believe that's the way it is
Well, 'it is' different for everyone..... that's just the way 'it is' for me!
I do believe in Karma.
Ah... then you ARE a man of faith! (Not to be confused with religion... but the two DO go hand in hand)
We are just like any other creature: we evolved to become what we are and now fight for our survival.
But we have opposable thumbs. We are also the only creature that has an appreciation of (not just FOR) our surroundings. For some reason we have been given the gift of higher thought. We are not driven by instinct (for the most part), we are curious to the point where we look up in the sky and ask WHY! What cow sees the sky and wonders why the stars in June are different than they were in January. Instead of just accepting that is gets cold... we wonder why... and seek to find the answers. The only theory I liked in all of the Star Trek movies... was VGER...
Maine- you may think I am ignorant,
ABSOLUTEY NOT!!!! I hope you didn't take it that way and I apologize if you did.
but I do not believe you are correct in assuming the existence of a God. I do not believe you are dumb or a bad person because of it,
No problem, you are entitled to that opinion. I don't assume anything... in my life God is the only true FACT (in that our surroundings are only 'skin deep' so to speak). It's not a popular position... but those that believe really don't need outside affirmation.
I have a question for you though. What is it that makes you believe? I think that this is a very interesting topic to discuss and am anxious to hear your replies...:icesangel
Yup... that is a good question. The only answer I have for you is that I'm here... for some reason other than biology. Science does not create the soul... end of story.
First off, I would like to assure both of you that I in no way mean to insult anyone,
I know you didn't mean to, and I didn't take it that way. It would take much more than a stranger's opinion to offend me. You are well spoken and I'm fairly certain you meant no disrespect.
What I mean is that you believe that there is some deeper purpose to life whether it is because you need to believe it in order for life to be worth living
Not at all... there is a deeper purpose in life (IMHO), but that is not what gets me out of bed every morning. The fact that I have been given another day to live does that for me.
or you just believe that's the way it is
Well, 'it is' different for everyone..... that's just the way 'it is' for me!
I do believe in Karma.
Ah... then you ARE a man of faith! (Not to be confused with religion... but the two DO go hand in hand)
We are just like any other creature: we evolved to become what we are and now fight for our survival.
But we have opposable thumbs. We are also the only creature that has an appreciation of (not just FOR) our surroundings. For some reason we have been given the gift of higher thought. We are not driven by instinct (for the most part), we are curious to the point where we look up in the sky and ask WHY! What cow sees the sky and wonders why the stars in June are different than they were in January. Instead of just accepting that is gets cold... we wonder why... and seek to find the answers. The only theory I liked in all of the Star Trek movies... was VGER...
Maine- you may think I am ignorant,
ABSOLUTEY NOT!!!! I hope you didn't take it that way and I apologize if you did.
but I do not believe you are correct in assuming the existence of a God. I do not believe you are dumb or a bad person because of it,
No problem, you are entitled to that opinion. I don't assume anything... in my life God is the only true FACT (in that our surroundings are only 'skin deep' so to speak). It's not a popular position... but those that believe really don't need outside affirmation.
I have a question for you though. What is it that makes you believe? I think that this is a very interesting topic to discuss and am anxious to hear your replies...:icesangel
Yup... that is a good question. The only answer I have for you is that I'm here... for some reason other than biology. Science does not create the soul... end of story.
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MaineExport
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Mayhem_J30 wrote:Maine, I sent you an email earlier this afternoon about that post. Guess ya didn't get it.
Nope... still haven't checked my email yet. It's understood... simple mistake, no problem. Thanks for explaining it, I very much appreciate that.
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Rockenreno
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maine, that is a very good response 
I can understand where you are coming from and why you believe what you do, but I just don't see it that way. In the sense of karma, I believe it is more psychological than supernatural or real, but by thinking about it, it can manifest itself subconsiously (the human mind is an incredible thing). I also believe that the answers to your evolutionary questions are simply that by some freak chance in nature we turned out to get smarter, and adapted to life by gaining opposable thumbs, higher intellect and all the rest. I don't pretend to know why we have such a profound desire to know 'why', or look at the stars, but I don't believe that God is the reason. From my experience there are not enough facts to disprove either of our theories, and all we have to go on is our own sense of reason, which is different for everyone.
As for the soul... well who knows? Maybe we don't have a soul and it is just chemical reactions. As I said before, I can't explain it, but I don't think that the possibility of a God explains it either. I don't think I can put it any more simply. We're all lost here and trying to find a way, some believe we were put here, others don't. It's simply the way it is. Just my $.02
I can understand where you are coming from and why you believe what you do, but I just don't see it that way. In the sense of karma, I believe it is more psychological than supernatural or real, but by thinking about it, it can manifest itself subconsiously (the human mind is an incredible thing). I also believe that the answers to your evolutionary questions are simply that by some freak chance in nature we turned out to get smarter, and adapted to life by gaining opposable thumbs, higher intellect and all the rest. I don't pretend to know why we have such a profound desire to know 'why', or look at the stars, but I don't believe that God is the reason. From my experience there are not enough facts to disprove either of our theories, and all we have to go on is our own sense of reason, which is different for everyone.
As for the soul... well who knows? Maybe we don't have a soul and it is just chemical reactions. As I said before, I can't explain it, but I don't think that the possibility of a God explains it either. I don't think I can put it any more simply. We're all lost here and trying to find a way, some believe we were put here, others don't. It's simply the way it is. Just my $.02
haha, man i need to go back to school..im gettin left in the dust here, and i never could get that punctuation thing... I just dont know what i want to study anymore, at first business, but i hate the politics invovled, then psychology, but i dont want to end up a researcher or in business where most 4yr degrees end up. and 8 or so yrs for a phd or even less, a master is too long, i have this attention problemn ! think ill just study car stuff.
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AZhitman
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Wow - I go to bed for a few hours and look what happens. This thread gets better and better.
RockenReno - I can't respond to you any better than Maine did. I swear, the kid knows exactly what I'm thinking - I'm just gonna pay him to write ALL my posts for me. If he's got any propensity for law enforcement and auditing/investigations, I may even take a year off and let him have my office. The idiots around here won't know the difference.
At any rate, it's far too small a forum to share with you all my responses to your questions. You mentioned you're only 19, and in my opinion, you're probably EXACTLY where I was at that age. I'm not being condescending here, as you're obviously a well-spoken and intelligent guy.
However, given the fact that you asked, and you've got a mind for science and learning (as you said), I'd like to direct you toward a book I read some years ago. It's called "A Case For Faith" by Lee Strobel. Mr. Strobel is a former atheist and legally-trained (Yale) investigative reporter (former editor of the Chicago Tribune) who still remains hopelessly liberal and left-leaning (I don't hold that against him:D).
At any rate, he has basically taken his disbelief and attempted to "prove" through very scientific, legalistic and investigative means, his lack of faith or beliefs. In the book, he asks the most difficult questions imaginable of those who lay claim to the truth of the Christian faith. He dares to deal with complexity, refusing to pander to his reader with simplistic and empty responses - one of the weaknesses, IMO, of those who profess our beliefs - They just can't defend them sufficiently because they're ill-equipped or they are afraid of getting "too" technical. Anyhow, I'm obviously a fan of the book. I have bought at least 7 copies for friends who've asked for copies over the past few years, and each one of them has been incredibly impressed. I don't expect you to run right out and buy it (check Amazon.com), but it's a great read, and I'd loan it to you if you'd like.
There's a summary (approx. 6 pages) that I'd be glad to copy and fax to anyone interested in reading them.
p.s. slw240 - I felt bad reading your last post - Please don't think we were beating on you. That wasn't my intent. Sometimes I get into "Dad Mode" and it comes out in my posts - Keep hanging in there, you'll find your way.
RockenReno - I can't respond to you any better than Maine did. I swear, the kid knows exactly what I'm thinking - I'm just gonna pay him to write ALL my posts for me. If he's got any propensity for law enforcement and auditing/investigations, I may even take a year off and let him have my office. The idiots around here won't know the difference.
At any rate, it's far too small a forum to share with you all my responses to your questions. You mentioned you're only 19, and in my opinion, you're probably EXACTLY where I was at that age. I'm not being condescending here, as you're obviously a well-spoken and intelligent guy.
However, given the fact that you asked, and you've got a mind for science and learning (as you said), I'd like to direct you toward a book I read some years ago. It's called "A Case For Faith" by Lee Strobel. Mr. Strobel is a former atheist and legally-trained (Yale) investigative reporter (former editor of the Chicago Tribune) who still remains hopelessly liberal and left-leaning (I don't hold that against him:D).
At any rate, he has basically taken his disbelief and attempted to "prove" through very scientific, legalistic and investigative means, his lack of faith or beliefs. In the book, he asks the most difficult questions imaginable of those who lay claim to the truth of the Christian faith. He dares to deal with complexity, refusing to pander to his reader with simplistic and empty responses - one of the weaknesses, IMO, of those who profess our beliefs - They just can't defend them sufficiently because they're ill-equipped or they are afraid of getting "too" technical. Anyhow, I'm obviously a fan of the book. I have bought at least 7 copies for friends who've asked for copies over the past few years, and each one of them has been incredibly impressed. I don't expect you to run right out and buy it (check Amazon.com), but it's a great read, and I'd loan it to you if you'd like.
There's a summary (approx. 6 pages) that I'd be glad to copy and fax to anyone interested in reading them.
p.s. slw240 - I felt bad reading your last post - Please don't think we were beating on you. That wasn't my intent. Sometimes I get into "Dad Mode" and it comes out in my posts - Keep hanging in there, you'll find your way.
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MasterMan
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well how i feel about religion is, most people find it comferting to know why they are here.. how would you feel if you had no parents? if religon helps u feel better about life or helps you thru the day then gr8 do what u need to do, if it stops you from shooting somone in the head for cutting u off in traffic.. even better..
but what i ask is the whole life after death going to heaven or hell, if i was to go aginst god and all and i did go to hell why would satan punish me for bein bad, isnt he the one that went agines god? i dunno maby i just sound dumb.. help? heh
but what i ask is the whole life after death going to heaven or hell, if i was to go aginst god and all and i did go to hell why would satan punish me for bein bad, isnt he the one that went agines god? i dunno maby i just sound dumb.. help? heh
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Movingviolation240
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MasterMan wrote:
but what i ask is the whole life after death going to heaven or hell, if i was to go aginst god and all and i did go to hell why would satan punish me for bein bad, isnt he the one that went agines god? i dunno maby i just sound dumb.. help? heh
to put it blunt he's an as$hole and he'll be an as$hole to anybody else who's down there with him.
Satan isn't 'king of his world' he was put there as punishment by God. So he's pissed off to begin with and will take it out on everybody else. Hell is a very dark, cold place (that's how it'd described) so as I understand it you'll spend the whole time there with no contact with anybody else. There will be no big party laughing with all the sinners, just a very depressing, boring, uncormfortable existance.
PaulOrlando, FL
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AZhitman
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Great question, MM!
Actually, I'm sure satan would be glad to have your company. Hell is a simple concept - Eternal seperation from our Father. Many cultures have their own perception of what constitutes Hell, unfortunately most have been tainted with Dante's version of a fiery inferno. Who knows?
At any rate, keep in mind that your "acts" are not as critical as your "heart" - In other words, all have sinned. Period. The only was to reconcile ourselves to our Father is through acceptance of his gift to us, salvation through his Son. All can be forgiven - No matter how bad we've been, no matter how horrible we think we are. Just as the parent loves their child despite the child breaking the parents' heart (sometimes frequently), so it is with our Father. He loves you and doesn't want to see you seperated from Him for eternity.
Imagine it this way: A kid is at a carnival, having a great time with his Dad. Dad has purchased ride tickets and cotton candy and stuffed animals and so on, and in the child's mind, he is in "heaven". He has a less fortunate friend, a boy he goes to school with, whose parents are poor, and they abuse him. He is dressed in rags and has sneaked into the carnival hoping to ride the ferris wheel. He'd give anything to have his own father take him to the carnival, but that just ain't happening.
The two boys happen to see each other at the carnival. The boy who arrived with his father asks the less fortunate child if he'd like to go on the ferris wheel with him. Sadly, the boy has no tickets for a ride and must decline the offer. "That's OK," says the boy, "Let's go see my Dad - He'll give you a ticket." The father does just that, the three of them board the ferris wheel together, and the less fortunate child gets to spend the time of his life doing that which he's only dreamed of.
Without the Son, the ragged lad would have had no chance of entering into the company of the Father, and he certainly would not have given the boy a ticket.
Again, great question - Hope I helped a little.
p.s. Not all Christians are "boring", "lame", "holier-than-thou" or "uncool". But that's a whole different sermon.
Actually, I'm sure satan would be glad to have your company. Hell is a simple concept - Eternal seperation from our Father. Many cultures have their own perception of what constitutes Hell, unfortunately most have been tainted with Dante's version of a fiery inferno. Who knows?
At any rate, keep in mind that your "acts" are not as critical as your "heart" - In other words, all have sinned. Period. The only was to reconcile ourselves to our Father is through acceptance of his gift to us, salvation through his Son. All can be forgiven - No matter how bad we've been, no matter how horrible we think we are. Just as the parent loves their child despite the child breaking the parents' heart (sometimes frequently), so it is with our Father. He loves you and doesn't want to see you seperated from Him for eternity.
Imagine it this way: A kid is at a carnival, having a great time with his Dad. Dad has purchased ride tickets and cotton candy and stuffed animals and so on, and in the child's mind, he is in "heaven". He has a less fortunate friend, a boy he goes to school with, whose parents are poor, and they abuse him. He is dressed in rags and has sneaked into the carnival hoping to ride the ferris wheel. He'd give anything to have his own father take him to the carnival, but that just ain't happening.
The two boys happen to see each other at the carnival. The boy who arrived with his father asks the less fortunate child if he'd like to go on the ferris wheel with him. Sadly, the boy has no tickets for a ride and must decline the offer. "That's OK," says the boy, "Let's go see my Dad - He'll give you a ticket." The father does just that, the three of them board the ferris wheel together, and the less fortunate child gets to spend the time of his life doing that which he's only dreamed of.
Without the Son, the ragged lad would have had no chance of entering into the company of the Father, and he certainly would not have given the boy a ticket.
Again, great question - Hope I helped a little.
p.s. Not all Christians are "boring", "lame", "holier-than-thou" or "uncool". But that's a whole different sermon.
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Movingviolation240
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Rockenreno
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