a petition to put prayer back in schools.

[MaineExport]

On 9/11 we held a thing on the football field to honor the ones that lost their lives and we had an actual prayer but that was for good reason though.

Ahh, but you see... it should always be for a GOOD reason. I bet God likes that.

[darkeagle]

If you think there is all kinds of prays. People pray maybe without realizing it. A lil kid praying for a new toy (yes praying/wishing), or people on the donor list praying everyday that they will have a chance to live longer, prayer for needy things and not needy things.

Everyone believes in their own form of religion someway or another, they belive it in their own terms maybe thats how some understand it better, or some could see it how they interpret it. I really think it would do some good for the schools though to have maybe a prayer or like the moment of silence. Not pray out loud but time for a minute to think about the day, think about the war going on and hope for good from that, things like that.

[lessthanjakejohn]

It would be nice to think that everyone would think/pray everyday but wouldn't you want to do it on your own time? When you had something you wanted to think about.

[darkeagle]

Ahh, but you see... it should always be for a GOOD reason. I bet God likes that.

Well I didnt mean it exaclty for that reason but it makes you think though that instead of New York getting hit it (9/11) could have been where your hometown was instead. Most or over half of them prayed that they were still alive. The families lost love ones but yet they have their lives too and are going on each day bearing for what happen.

I had moment of silence every mornign and of course half the time my mind wasnt on praying, probably I was one that wanted to get out of class and do my own things, but yet I didnt sit there and whine and complain about being quiet for 1 minute. I dont think it would kill the younger generation and all the other generations before them to take one minute from school of a morning to think or what not.

[ratm]

AZhitman, i am wondering what you mean by decline in societal values. In my opinion society today may the best it ever has been. Although, there are still problems in society many of the problems today are not near as drastic as they used to be. People say the youth of society are irresponsible and disrespectful but, people have been saying that about the younger generations since the beginning of time and will continue to say till the end of time. Racism still exists but it is not as bad as it was 50 years ago, there is still inequality between the sexes in many areas but overall equality has improved greatly. I do not think believing in god will solve these problems. These problems will be improved upon if people what do they know right. For some people believing in god helps to make these decisions. However, people's ideas of right and wrong are conflicted because beliefs they have tell them something they think is right, is wrong

[Mayhem_J30]

AZhitman, i am wondering what you mean by decline in societal values. In my opinion society today may the best it ever has been. Although, there are still problems in society many of the problems today are not near as drastic as they used to be. People say the youth of society are irresponsible and disrespectful but, people have been saying that about the younger generations since the beginning of time and will continue to say till the end of time. Racism still exists but it is not as bad as it was 50 years ago, there is still inequality between the sexes in many areas but overall equality has improved greatly. I do not think believing in god will solve these problems. These problems will be improved upon if people what do they know right. For some people believing in god helps to make these decisions. However, people's ideas of right and wrong are conflicted because beliefs they have tell them something they think is right, is wrong

once again RATM another fine point. Be careful with the "I don't think believing in God..." stuff. That could get people fired up. Racism pisses me off sooo much, especially from the older crowd...but that's another subject.What if a grey area of 'tolerated' religion was allowed back in schools? Something where as long as you keep it to yourself QUIETLY and you're not levatating and lighting candles and stuff it'll be allowed. I think not being allowed to pray in school is already of VERY grey area because who's to say what praying is?The oddest anti-religion thing I experienced in HS (back in 93) was around Halloween the faculty came around and took down all pictures of Jackolanterns and witches because they thought it was promoting a demonic religion..which is a nono. :rolleyes

[AZhitman]

ratm - Enjoyed your post... And for the most part you're spot-on.

I won't go into too much detail here, but you need to know that there are universal truths as to what constiututes right and wrong. These have existed since the dawn of man (actually, since The Fall, but for argument's sake let's leave it at the dawn of man). This is where all of our ideas as to what is right and what is wrong come from. Add in thousands of years of humans (with our free will) screwing it up, and yet we're still innately aware of what is right and wrong. Some call it conscience, some call it intuition. Ever wonder where that comes from? That is created within us by our Maker. There's quite a broad latitude of what some will see as OK behavior, but in general, we all pretty much agree on the main points. Interestingly enough, those points are for the most part the same ones outlined in the Commandments. Coincidence? Nope.

To address something Sabrina brought up (I have difficulty following your posts, Brini - Don't know why...) One of the main problems with "organized" religion these days is the rituals, customs, and dogma attached to it. None (or VERY few) of these were intended.

The basics were: Love God, and Love Your Neighbor (fellow man). Could we just focus on that? Pretty simple, right? Instead, WE (mankind) have erroneously attributed ALL kinds of ridiculous rituals and rules, which serves only to create division and rift. Want some examples? Here goes: No dancing? You can't have a beer? You can't be angry? You have to clasp your hands and bow your head to pray? You have to wear your "Sunday best" to chuurch? Show me where it says that in the Bible. It's no wonder church attendance is at an all-time low...

I'll get off my soapbox now - You kids be safe.

[BIONICQ45]

Well, I pray frequently if you members don't want to admit it. I pray with my wife and son and I pray alone. That is what I was taught and I rather enjoy it. It is not a set or memorized prayer. I give thanks for what I have (much) and ask for what I need (much). This changes daily. That being said I do believe that prayer will better any nation. If one believes in a God of love and peace and understanding and one converses with HIM often maybe one will gain love peace and understanding. This is a touchy topic although it shouldn't be.

I'll say this, to have to debate whether or not one should pray anywhere is creepy. In the time of need, tragedy and fear all want to bend there knee and petition God but when all is well we forget why all is well. It is like waiting until your house is on fire to buy home owner's insurance.

[Movingviolation240]

where in the constitution dose it say 'seperation of church and state'

Anytime religion is mentioned within the confines of government today people cry, "Separation of Church and State". Many people think this statement appears in the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution and therefore must be strictly enforced. However, the words: "separation", "church", and "state" do not even appear in the first amendment. The first amendment reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." The statement about a wall of separation between church and state was made in a letter on January 1, 1802, by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut. The congregation heard a widespread rumor that the Congregationalists, another denomination, were to become the national religion. This was very alarming to people who knew about religious persecution in England by the state established church. Jefferson made it clear in his letter to the Danbury Congregation that the separation was to be that government would not establish a national religion or dictate to men how to worship God. Jefferson's letter from which the phrase "separation of church and state" was taken affirmed first amendment rights. Jefferson wrote:

I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State

Just felt like posting that, I'm all for prayer in school. I don't think it needs to be manditory (even I will admit that's wrong) but I don't see why it should be illegal if a student wants to pray out loud. Kids have actually been kicked out of school for praying out loud at sporting events. Now how can the state do that if they are seperated from the church?

If you don't want to pray don't listen, if I want to thank God for somthing I'm going to do it. You don't have to listen, you don't have to watch, you don't even have to give a crap. But I still should be able to do it, with other students if I so feel. This nation was founded as a christian nation, and there is no getting away from that. Why can't everybody accept that just like they accept the fact that they can leave if they don't like it here.

PaulOrlando, FL

[VimyJ]

Quote » This nation was founded as a christian nation, and there is no getting away from that. Why can't everybody accept that just like they accept the fact that they can leave if they don't like it here.

PaulOrlando, FL [/quote]

The US was founded by christians but not as a christian nation. The Amendment in question states plainly that the government can make no law establishing a religion. Ipso facto, the separation of church and state.

The precedent was set not only becuase of England but also because of rampant religous persecution all over Europe. The calvinists, lutherans, huegonots, catholics, jews, muslims, quakers, etc. were all persecuted. Mixing goverment (the state) and religion was seen as a bad idea.

[lessthanjakejohn]

Check this out http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... ebola_dc_1

thats some crzy beliefe right there

[Movingviolation240]

The US was founded by christians but not as a christian nation. The Amendment in question states plainly that the government can make no law establishing a religion. Ipso facto, the separation of church and state.

Don't make me resort to the "Why do we use the phrase 'In God we trust'" arguement.

It was founded by christians to be a christian country, the book most often quoted from in the continental congress was the bible.

If it was made by christians for christians I don't see how it can't be a christian country.....

Paul

[arem]

dude, I'm with you all the way, send me that petition. [email protected] put "the prayer petition" in the subject line, k

[WDRacing]

I don't believe in organized religion. Never have. I think organized religion causes more problems then anything else. I hate bible thumpers. I hate people who push relgion on other people.

That said, I think our country is missing somthing. The general feeling of disrespect you get from todays youth. The "I don't care, it's not my problem" attitude that seems to have been adopted.

I believe the lack of Christian beliefs play a large in todays problems. Not nessesarily the belief in God, but the general goodness that is preached in Christianity.

This thread is full of debatable points. Lets keep it clean.

WD

[TrueSlide]

i thought prayer was legal/or accepted in school(to a certain extent). Like all the groups that would prey at the flag, and in school whenever they wanted too, thats how it should be. NOT Everyone is religious and should not be forced to prayer, but those that wish to prayer should be able to. They had a silent time in our school, that lasted like a minute or two, and the students could pray, sleep, do what ever in that moment of time, I thought it was pretty good idea.

[AZhitman]

WD - Big difference between "Bible-thumpers" and those who believe the Bible to be the Word of God. Like I said before, it's no wonder people despise organized religion.

I attend a non-denominational church with a very simple mission: "To turn ordinary people (we call ourselves 'bumbling idiots') into extraordinary followers of the Lord." No ritual, no dogma, no crazy stuff, no nonsense. If it ain't in the Book, it doesn't fly. We play contemporary, loud, worship music that sounds SUSPICIOUSLY like... rock and roll - Shhhhh! We have every race, color, background and socioeconomic status represented, and it's a very open and accepting place. A place where anyone can come and feel loved. Doesn't mean we embrace or approve of the baggage that the world has saddled upon everyone that shows up, but we love the people.

Bionic, it ain't a touchy topic at all. Your kids seeing you pray is the single best thing you can do for them. You were right on the money. All I can say is keep it up, my friend.

I'm encouraged by the honesty and openness shown by our members - I'll keep this thread open as long as no one has a strong objection.

For those of you who are sitting back, taking this all in, and not sure what to make of it, please feel free to ask questions - Regardless of what you believe or don't believe. I promise I'll make sure no one flames you or makes fun.

[MasterMan]

im trying not to get mad here.. ok now, if u want to pray in school then go to a private school where u can do what u want. church should stay OUT of the govenment, schooling, and any other public activity (funded by the state). if your religius then fine good for u, but there are so many diffrent religions that none of them should take place in a public inviromnet.. now im athest, so i dont care for religion but i do respect people that are religious, just DO NOT push your religion on me, its bad enough in public schools as is, we dont need to bring religion into it, if u let the chrisgens pray then u gonna let the satanic kids do whatever they do? how about the buddest? or the jewish community? its too much time out of the day. sorry but the whole idea is a bad one

[Anand]

I read the whole thread and you know... we will never get to a point where we agree on this topic at all.

I have debates about religion with my friends ALL the time... We debate about it all night.. nothing.. see now with religion, no one can change your views but yourself. unless you go through something, you will keep on beliveing what you want...

I think religion SHOULD stay out of schools.... Yea, so what if our founding fathers founded this country to be christian. But they also gave us religious freedoom as well.

I'll tell you a little about me..=) I am a Hindu (Born and raised), My wife is a Methodist (born and raised), I have friends that are Catholic, Muslim, and Christian. I personally wouldn't mind going to any one of the churches, cinagogs, Temples, or what have you... I do go to a Church with my wife since I never told her not to belive in what she wants. What I'm trying ot say is, people have a right to belive in any religion that they want... ANY! and if some governing body comes in forcing a religion on them is wrong. and will always be wrong. Look at the history of the world... there will be chaos if you force religion.. Keep religion in your Mind, Body, Soul, and your home... but keep it out of our schools...

[VimyJ]

I think religion SHOULD stay out of schools.... Yea, so what if our founding fathers founded this country to be christian. But they also gave us religious freedoom as well.

The most amazing liberal idea to come out of the American Revolution was to create a secular government. The US was not created to be christian per se or more accurately "protestant".

BTW, "In God We Trust" was added to US currency around the time of the Civil War when a reactionary christain craze was sweeping the country. It wasn't on any post revolutionary currency until that time.

[Bubba1]

We live in a wonderfully diverse country with many different religions, far more complex than our founding fathers' era. I find it gratifying that people find spirituality, fulfillment, and happiness from the religion of their choice or perhaps without religion at all, and live peacefully beside someone that has differing beliefs. I don't mind people that want to share the joy the've received from their own religion with me. I certainly won't convert from my religion, but I'm always happy to discuss so I could gain a better understanding of theirs. I also don't mind children praying whenever they feel the need to, even while at a public school. I consider prayer a highly personal. But I do have a problem requiring school prayer at a public school. This potentially inflicts one religion upon on children of other religions and beliefs. Some parents and children may find it highly offensive, some won't. But it's not fair to impose religion on anyone in a public school who may find it offensive, even though the message may be thought of as good. I could see a compromise of a non-religeous "moment of reflection" before school begins, perhaps, but I say no to organized prayer at public school. If you consider organized prayer a critical enough issue for your children during school hours, perhaps a parochial school would be a better path. I hope I don't regret responding to this. I have a feeling I'm about to get fed to the lions...

[AZhitman]

Says a lot about your faith that you'd be concerned about lions, Bubba.

[MaineExport]

No worries Bubba... we agree on a lot of what you have said. I don't think prayer should be mandated in school... period. But, I think spirituality has its place in the education process.

[slw240sx]

i for one am atheist, i grew up catholic, went to catholic schools all the way up till senior year in highschool, in 8th grade i came upon the conclusion that i never liked religion, nor did i believe in what had been forced on me all those years, i went through what is called confirmation only because they treatend me with not completing my grade, so i did it ! doesnt sound very christian to me!! well in high school they required a church once a week i would skip the period an go drive around, we also were required one religion class a semester, needless to say i was defiant an failed every one, i begged and pleaded with my parents not to waste their hard earned money on my education.. that ill do fine in public school, now im not the smartest kid i was above average , but my anti social an anti religious views helped me to suceed in not performing well in classes and getting low grades, my teachers all knew my potenial but, i wassnt happy with it so i screwed my self.. my guidance counslers wouldnt let me be in the upper classes, they required me to take study halls, told me to take those classes because they wernt that chalenging, by my senior year i was in three religion classes aday and one study hall, i had only three reall classes aday, my senior year i was fed up i slept threw all the religion classes was defiant to pray or reconize the catholic religion, i sparked debates about their religion and others. i was unwelcome in the school and flunked every single class in protest. i dropped out and recieved a GED, my parents werent happy at all but. they didnt listen too me and the money wasnt all that wasted i do have the knowledge i recived still with me! only it could have been had for free if only i was aloud to attend a public shool,

on with the debate, now if i were in a public school in class, i would be extremely offended if we had to take time out to pray or reflect ! that is an intruison on my right to learn.. its is forcing on me somthing that is implied relious. its my right to be in school free from distractions and time implications due to a relfection time/prayer time . if people want to pray, you have time at home before school, after school, during school, but not in a classroom during scheduled classes, nor should that schedule be inflicted upon to allow time for such activitys.. people have time before, after and during school in which they could join with friends and people of similar beliefs and pray. but dont let it impead on my time for learning, do it on your time not mine, take a luch break or a locker time break, or even a period were people can come to class late to attend a group, but dont take time in a classroom during a period to pray that infringes on others right to learn

sorry for the rant but i have very strong beliefs on the religion issues do to abuse i went through because of it ! ! and if i sound uneducated its because one i still am and two its fn late an i havent slept Jon

[Rockenreno]

now if i were in a public school in class, i would be extremely offended if we had to take time out to pray or reflect ! that is an intruison on my right to learn.. its is forcing on me somthing that is implied relious. its my right to be in school free from distractions and time implications due to a relfection time/prayer time . if people want to pray, you have time at home before school, after school, during school, but not in a classroom during scheduled classes, nor should that schedule be inflicted upon to allow time for such activitys.. people have time before, after and during school

I completely agree. No matter what you say about how it is not being forced on kids when they set aside time for prayer, it IS. I feel very uncomfortable when asked to participate in prayers, as I quite simply am an athiest. I try to bow my head respectfully whenever the situation arises, but I feel very out of place.If you want to pray during school, start a club at lunch or do it during a break between classes. I have no problem with people praying, but if they are going to make me feel uncomfortable by forcing it upon me, I must say it is infringing on my rights.There is a reason for separation of church and state. Let's keep it that way so that everyone can worship or not worship as they please. It is the best for everyone.

[MaineExport]

Well, to play devil's advocate:

Rockin' Rhino said"]No matter what you say about how it is not being forced on kids when they set aside time for prayer, it IS.

Using that kind of logic.. they are also FORCING education on you.

slw240sx shared"]now if i were in a public school in class, i would be extremely offended if we had to take time out to pray or reflect ! that is an intruison on my right to learn.. its is forcing on me somthing

They are forcing you to take time out of your day to eat. Damn those inconsiderate bastards.... that is valuable time that you could spend learning.

Man, high school must have changed since 1994, because the LAST thing we wanted to do was spend time listening to lecture. I would have loved an extra 60 seconds to stay out of the books.... and maybe stare longingly at the girls (as back then reflection and prayer were amongst the last things on my mind!:D )

[slw240sx]

maine that brings up another good debate ! another inwhich i feel strongly about, thats is the right to a education is just that a right, it shouldnt be force upon kids like it is, i dont agree with people going uneducated, but that should be a right to choose, i shouldnt be force to goto school an have to learn anything if i dont want to!! yah it sounds ignorant i would attended school even with out being forced but it is a right to free education not a require ment !! liek it is now which is unconstiutional in my poorly written an offtenly incorectly grammared book !

[ninjak84]

i have a petition that my mom's friend sent her and it is about putting prayer back in the schools.

Instead of giving the sarcastic and one sided reply I was going to post, I'll just offer you my good-luck and best wishes. Props for standing up for what you believe in.

[MaineExport]

maine that brings up another good debate ! another inwhich i feel strongly about, thats is the right to a education is just that a right, it shouldnt be force upon kids like it is, i dont agree with people going uneducated, but that should be a right to choose, i shouldnt be force to goto school an have to learn anything if i dont want to!! yah it sounds ignorant i would attended school even with out being forced but it is a right to free education not a require ment !! liek it is now which is unconstiutional in my poorly written an offtenly incorectly grammared book !

While I like your enthusiasm and humor... I have to strongly disagree with your post. Education isn't a right, it is a responsibility!!! It is paid for by us working folk, so that you will grow up to become a contributing member of society... not a leech on society.

Education isn't your choice and it never should be. I'm sure you would make the right choice.... but I'm also very sure that most KIDS wouldn't. We all go through the same phases during adolescence. I remember having the same thoughts about not being able to live MY life and make my own choices. Luckily I had parents who cared enough to make me do what was right. The reason I wasn't allowed to make all of my own decisions, is because I wasn't capable of making all the right choices at that time. It would be fine if I screwed up and it only affected me, but it doesn't... it affects society too... and that's why it's not your choice.

[slw240sx]

but guess what, "US" working folk footing that bill for a education system that isnt working, schools are in extreme debt, scarce budgets(defense expenses are much more important then making sure all our youth even poor or middle class kids are educated properly!!!!) horribly outdated materials and learing enviroments ! under paid teachers, let all goto a school where mold is growing on the ceiling and making kids sick.. or how bout one that the building is falling apart around you, that the entire front of the building is roped of because stuff is falling off, or walls are crumbling in the classrooms, desks made in the 40s and 50s putting 30-40 kids in a class room that only meant to hold 20, bussing white kids 30mins cross town to black neighborhoods and black kids same dissantace to white hoods to make sure ethic diversity quota's are meet.. making kids have to get up at 4 to 5 am just to make it to school to start at 6am..the phasing out of bussing in the toubled parts of town cause the budget wont allow enough money. yet those are the same areas that despartely need education and have no transportation other then busses and they dont run in the areas the kids goto school at

i could go on and on our school system is over 25 million in debt and is prob going to be taken over by the state an further cutbacks will be made !

[Rockenreno]

maine, while I appreciate your counter-argument, I do not think it applies to this situation at all. We go to school to LEARN, not to pray. Thus we are making the choice to learn at school, and although we are forced to attend, we aren't forced to learn.

Your argument basically could be transferred over saying that when someone goes to church they are unrightfully being FORCED to pray. Why in the world would anyone pray at church?!

Anyway, like I said, your argument doesn't make much sense to me since school is a place to learn. So really learning isn't forced on you there... it is NOT a place to pray, therefore prayer can be forced on you.