I think you may have to modify a tool to get in there.. You might look into buying some gear wrenches. I have some offset ones, and they only take about 5 degrees to turn... Another thing you must consider is youll have to be able to get this back on and torque it up...

Now that the hard and evil part is over, we can relax and focus on the next hurdle to our journey.. Getting that bolt off...

You know, another thing you could do is call up T3 and ask Byron how he does it... I kinda doubt he removes all that stuff, either that or he is REALLY good

After that euphoria yesterday of removing the rear gussets & flywheel cover it's disheartening.

I spent hours trying to go around the front engine gusset with a 10mm box wrench and a quarter inch set of sockets with all sorts of handles.

My conclusion:
It's very difficult (if not impossible) to get that one 10mm oil-pan bolt out.
I'd say the alternator, compressor, & gusset have to go.

Problem is, I still can't get the alternator out.
Basically, I don't know how to disconnect the wires in back (I think).
Since that's not oil-pan related, I'll post that issue to a separate thread.

Just as no one photo seems to show the entire oil pan, no one photo can capture the occlusion problem with the one hidden-by-the-front-gusset bolt.

Here's a composite of the best I can do to show that one difficult bolt situation.

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_composite_view_of_front_gusset_hiding_bolt.jpg (61434 bytes, downloaded 2024 times)

Ensure they are still in good condition and torque to spec. Loctite is not needed.

As for the pesky bolt:

Will a 1/4 inch drive with a universal joint not work?

There isnt an issue with removal right? I'd only be concerned when putting the pan back in with the new sealent on it. Dont want to smear that sealent all over the place and have portions with\without sealent. An oil leak would most likely occur and youd be back at it again.

Best wishes.

T, in all honesty, I think youd be stupid not to take Don up on his <generous> offer..... He really konws his stuff!

Unbolt the alternator first, then it will be clear how to disconnect it. If I remember correctly there's one plug and a wire that bolts on. I assume you've already disconnected the battery, but as a reminder - always do that before removing the alternator...

Heath

Maybe I will.

However, for a variety of reasons, now isn't a good time, not the least of which is the fact that I don't schedule my work on the Q ... it just happens when I find time between a miriad of travelling & family issues and the the various & sundry daily things that get in the way (some say that's what life is all about). Sigh.

Generally I work on the Q on weekends, but, that's been sporadic at best, mainly due to other pressing obligations (and injuries) always seeming to get in the way. I even find some time to cut over from lunch and remove a few bolts when I hit a stumbling block.

Right now, the only thing (I think) hanging this job up is the removal of the front engine gusset. The FSM says the compressor has to go ... and for the compressor, the FSM says the alternator has to go. However, Dennis intimates in one alt thread that the compressor can go before the alternator. I'd like to know if that can be done as I don't want to remove the alt ... I just want to remove the front engine gusset.

I wonder if the compressor can be removed and then the gusset (without removing the alternator)???

I did do some research (and then summarize) on all I could find about Q45 alternator removals on this web site (including Maxnix' detailed yahoo step-by-step reference), and, when I get a chance, I will post issues (and photos) to another thread (since it's ancilliary to an oil pan R&R). Basically Dennis says it can be done in just a few hours while others have taken 9, 10, and 11 hours to R&R the alternator.

Luckily, I think this is the last big task left ... but, interestingly, after reading the posts on alternator R&R, it seems everyone does it a different way (and the FSM is little help in directing traffic in one direction or another). Double sigh.

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_front_view_of_engine_and_pan.jpg (65770 bytes, downloaded 1981 times)

Not only is that hidden-by-the-gusset 10mm bolt nearly impossible to remove (even with a 1/4 inch socket set), but, as you (and others) noted, putting it all back would be problematic (to say the least) as the chances of having an oil leak would be too great.

For some strange reason, I don't wish to do this job twice.
So, the front engine gusset has to come off.
There's no question (any longer) in my mind.

The question is what is the best way to remove that front gusset?
a) Should I follow factory instructions (#1 alt, #2 A/C, #3 gusset)?
b) Can we skip #1 and just do #2 and then #3 (as Dennis intimated)?
b) Or, might there be an even better shortcut (like just remove #3 gusset)?


Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_quarter_inch_socket_handles.jpg (19306 bytes, downloaded 1678 times)

The front two alternator bolts have long been out.
The 24 inch pry bar helped greatly to free the alternator from the brackets.
The alternator is now loose enough to jiggle a few degrees.
But, it's still (very much) attached at the back!

The 1990 Q45 FSM alt R&R directions are (verbatim from EL-26):
REMOVAL
1. Remove radiator shroud.
2. Remove cooling fan.
3. Drain approximately one liter of coolant.
Then remove radiator upper hose.
4. Remove alternator upper bracket
5. Remove air conditioner pipe mounting bracket
6. Remove idler pulley. Then remove belt.
7. Remove the two power steering cooler pipe mounting screws.
8. Remove alternator mounting bolt (through-bolt).
9. Remove harness heat shroud by pulling alternator to radiator side.
INSTALLATION
o Installation procedures is (sic) in reverse order of removal.

So, if I'm to follow these instructions literally, I need to figure out:
a) What is the "alternator upper bracket" in item 4?
b) Find the harness heat shroud (is that on the alternator)?
c) Find & disconnect all the alt wires the FSM fails to mention

Mainly, I wonder if I can just remove the gusset alone or just the compressor and then the gusset without removing the alternator.


Attachment: nico_q45_alternator_rear_closeup_wires.jpg (62222 bytes, downloaded 1648 times)

Just that my Q has never been down for more than 24 hours. Different mind set I guess?

1995 Q45 89,000k Cabernet Pearl SOLD

2003 330i 39,000k Black Steptronic

2007 Audi A3 3.2 Quattro S-line 6 speed DSG

SO agreed.. In all honesty, while this is really bad, i am glad I had one Q to try and experiment on.. now I can do every job right the first itme, as on the old one I took shortcuts and certain things werent good......

Tangalora, I have more respect for you for doing this then probably any one else... I dont even think Id try this job, without your writeup.. Its very easy for us who are trying to help you to sit back here and tell you what to do, but actually doing it is another thing!

Can you determine where this gusset is attached? IE maybe see if we can have the alternator dangle?

Why not call T3 and ask one of the guys...?

ANother thing we have to adress, is there is a special tool used to get the oil pan out..... If you use a screwdriver you could warp the block, as stated in the FSM...

In any case, with a damaged oil pan, I wouldn't hesitate to just wack the hell out of it with a rubber mallet until it comes off. Denting is not an issue in this case. Some of those special tools in the service manual (like alignment pins for the rocker cover reseals on the 90-93) either don't exist are are nearly impossible to find.

Heath

Quote »

With a damaged oil pan, I wouldn't hesitate to just wack the hell out of it with a rubber mallet until it comes off

No need to. As has been the case lately, I was only able to start the task after nightfall due to Christmas shopping, picking a tree, & various & sundry errands filling my day.

Working steadily, by the time the 18th hole was reluctantly free, the 1990 Q45 oil pan just limply settled slowly into my arms, at long last, instantly surrendering its grip on the block with nary a struggle as if it were waiting all this time for this very moment when it was finally relieved of its duty.

Quote, originally posted by Q451990 »

I don't think Dennis' comment was meant as discouragement. I've thought the same thing, but respect any DIY endeavor - especially as well documented as this one is. It all comes down to capital... Tang is spending time, Dennis would prefer to spend $$. It all depends on what's more abundant. In any case, with a damaged oil pan, I wouldn't hesitate to just wack the hell out of it with a rubber mallet until it comes off. Denting is not an issue in this case. Some of those special tools in the service manual (like alignment pins for the rocker cover reseals on the 90-93) either don't exist are are nearly impossible to find. Heath

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_fell_off_without_a_whimper_of_reluctance.jpg (288212 bytes, downloaded 1868 times)

You don't want to know.

Not for the reason you think, mind you.
The pickup was apparently unscathed from the oilpan's scrape with death.
I'll open a separate (totally unrelated) thread on the horror story my oil pan whispered once it was unveiled and I peeked inside.

I'm trying to be succinct and skip just to the summary in deference to Dennis.

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_oil_pickup_not_damaged.jpg (164003 bytes, downloaded 1562 times)

Thats the last thing on your mind though..

It is an interesting sight looking up from the bottom.
I've never seen my own pistons before (especially from this closeup angle).
It's so very ... uh ... personal.
It's kind'a like looking at a CAT scan of my inner organs.

I wonder what an engine in excellent shape looks like from this vantage point?

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_underside_of_piston_skirt.jpg (16849 bytes, downloaded 1247 times)

Alora, as usual, great posts and a great thread.

You're an awesome asset to NICO!!!

[/hijack]

NICOclub on Facebook

This site dedicated to the memory of Stacey Lynn Childs 1970-2007

Despite the fact the alternator remains electrically connected to the Q, this front engine gusset link also includes links to the key NICO alternator removal threads summarized for your future use (because we didn't know that the alt could remain connected at the time).

Lastly, since documentation is 20% of the work, it should be noted the particular conundrum that befell us when the content of the oil pan was inspected is currently being analyzed at:
http://www.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=92729 (www.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=92729)
titled: Infiniti Online Mechanic » Can we see chain guides from the Q45 engine bottom?

Basically, the decision point is:
- Finish the oil pan job
- Then to the chain guides, oil pump, oil pump chain, etc.
Or:
- Do the chain guides, oil pump, oil pump chain, etc.
- Then finish the oil pan job we started so long ago.

I prefer to finish the first job but am currently paralyzed with indecision.
I wonder how long an engine underside can be exposed to the elements?

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_oil_strainer_mesh_intact.jpg (34128 bytes, downloaded 1219 times)

You'll need some more tools and more parts including the oil pump - but there are enough DIY guide veterans here to guide you through it (no pun intended)

Heath

Forgive me for asking ... but where would I hook up the oil pressure gauge? See the photo below from the driver's side of the block.

Quote, originally posted by Heath »

You also don't want to lose more parts in the pan ...

I've been wondering about this.
After a typical chain-guide replacement, why does anyone bother cleaning up the oil pan of plastic parts?

Something must be wrong with my assumptions below:
a) Big pieces (once they've already fallen) sit on the pan bottom harmlessly?
b) Smaller chunks get sucked into the pickup but stopped by the screen?
c) Teeny tiny bits might get past the screen (but a few bypasses thru the engine should soon trap them in the oil filter)

Is it that the smaller chunks clogging the intake screen impede oil flow?

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_is_this_oil_pressure_sending_unit.jpg (62539 bytes, downloaded 1405 times)

Impeded flow is the main concern.

You're forgetting the velocity involved with the moving oil... the large pieces are churned around, breaking them up into smaller pieces causing the clogged pick-up. Also remember that the oil level is very near the top of the pan on a normal basis, so it's possible that a chunk that's churned to the top could get thrown back into the oil pump chain.

I vote for going ahead and removing the front cover while you're in there. The biggest thing you'll need to buy tool wise is a chain wrench.

Heath

I've since spent hours researching this on NICO and, after having seen the cracked lower timing cover (of unknown origin) and other horror stories, consider me duly forwarned.

The specific suggestions were that a large chunk can wedge between the chain and sprocket, possibly breaking the chain or cause the chain to slip a tooth (one crank tooth or two cam teeth bringing the engine near the danger zone of embedding a valve in a piston head).

The smallest chunks (which slip past the mesh screen) can, according to other NICO posts, score the oil pump vanes. However, in stark contrast, with all the chain guide failures reported, nobody yet seems to have reported any major problems with oil pump failures (yet the oil pump is a standard replacement in chain-guide jobs). The good news is the oil pum replacement is cheap enough, even if it's not strictly necessary.

The real culprit if the oil pan isn't cleaned out might be lowered oil pressure due to that oil sump being almost completely blocked off.
I'm kinda' sorry I didn't do a before-and-after check to see the difference in oil pressure after cleaning the sump screen of debris.

In my case, the oil pickup sump opening "smile" was clogged completely.
Who knows what that did to oil pressure; or to oil volume.
The only way I could see the mesh screen was to flick a few particles away.
There were virtually no small (light) pieces left in the oil pan (almost all were sucked into the sump).

My two large ribbed (tension side?) chain-guide chunks were, strangely, deep in the lower level of the oil pan.
I had to fish my hands all around under the baffle to find them at all.
I would think this "fishing" expedition would be difficult to impossible to perform from above the small opening left by removing the lower timing chain cover.
Even with the suggested vaccum-suction tools.

I've written a one-page summary of all I can from the dozens of NICO threads on the chain-guide repair.
I'll try to post that complete summary separately for review (after I add the the requisite FSM section information).


Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_large_chunk_under_baffle.jpg (59914 bytes, downloaded 1471 times)

In that thread, John Nordling appears to have removed his Q45 oil pan WITHOUT removing the front engine gusset (he would almost certainly have mentioned that if he had).

Note that his method (see below) is very different than ours; but also note our oil pan was dented and probably pushed over closer to the gusset than is stock. We'll certainly find out if that is the case when we put the new oil pan on whether that 18th hole would have been covered by the gusset had the oil pan not been damaged and dented by the curb.

Quote, originally posted by John Nordling »

As for the oil pan, that job calls for patience and perseverance. I followed the shop manual, but it is verrrry light on details! So, I just used common sense. First, I fabricated a left side engine slinger and supported the engine with an engine hoist. This was easy because so much is off of the engine. Then I supported the transmission with an ATV jack, which is a very cost effective transmission jack with about twice the lifting capacity. Cost me $59 plus tax. Finally, I removed the transmission mount and the exhaust system mounts attached in the same area. About this time I decided I needed to have more room to crawl around under the car, so I put the front of the frame on a pyramid of three railroad ties on each side, using one railroad tie under each of the rear wheels. These things really work well and give you that margin of safety when you're crawling around underneath. (Actually, I use treated highway guard rail posts cut in half.) Now, I crawled underneath, pulled the sway bar, the steering rack, the tension rods, removed the lower suspension arm from the cross member, tied up wires and hoses, pulled the motor mounts and finally the crossmember. After that, dropping the pan was just a matter of pulling the bolts and a light tap from a rubber mallet. Probably more than you wanted to know, but I just don't think there is an easy way for a DIY to pull the pan.

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_debris_from_broken_chain_guide.jpg (67775 bytes, downloaded 1259 times)

Thanks. I agree it should be replaced. I was just wonderin' why it isn't mentioned as part of a normal oil pan R&R (as far as I can tell).

I mean, if we're wanting to be CERTAIN there are no chunks of chain guide around, how do we know there isn't a chunk on the upper side of that plate without specifically looking?

In hindsight, I should have baggied the oil sump sooner so as to distinguish better what was in the sump from what was in the pan & engine-bottom plate.

Also, in retrospect, what I find most intriguing is that the blue/gray RTV appeared contiguous around the oil pan.

I've since cleaned that RTV off, but the original pictures show continuity to be the case.
Now that I know that front of the oil pan needs to be re-sealed after a chain-guide replacement, that's a further clue that the chain guides were never done.

In fact, I'd wager the quickest test ever of whether the lower timing cover has been removed is to twist out a single bolt of the four in the front of the oil pan to inspect the RTV color around the threads and the threaded hole.

If its red (or some other color than that unique light blue/gray), then someone's been there after the factory.
Of course, this isn't a definitive test ... but it might be one of the easiest.

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_baggie_over_sump_pickup.jpg (60614 bytes, downloaded 1324 times)

Take this lesson to heart. The diagnosis possible with the engine running is immensely more valuable than what you can learn while the car is apart. It's too easy to go with a hunch and tear into a vehicle, then wonder later about a parameter, measurement, etc. The time spent doing proper diagnosis is low-hanging fruit with a big payoff.

Can someone confirm the factory use of gray RTV on the pan? I've seen red and blue, haven't seen gray yet. Wondering if the pan hasn't been removed once already?