2 hours 58 minutes shows what is humanly possible on a 6 shop hour job when you've done hundreds and have all the tools. I did point out the elapsed time at each stage. So let's say the average tech might take 4-3/4 hours pushing it and a relaxed Byron 3-1/2 hours.

You must have a lift, I cannot imagine the time on jack stands without air tools.

What youll have to do is have a jack under the cross member AS WELL as the engine slung, ebcause the cross member is quite heavy...

There are 6 bolts holding it on... Youll see the tie rods, and where it mounds to the frame of the car... There are 2 "hidden" ones that the lovely FSM fails to tell us about (or at least there were on mine)... On the transverse link (aka lower control arm) there is another bolt..... Bare minimum I think the tension rods will ahve to be unbolted from the member, and the upper links taken off.....

Unfortunately you have a long way to go.. I think anyway, if the suspension doesnt have to be removed,but im nearly sure it does.... In order to have access to the member bolts......

I don't know who Byron is, but, I coudn't even DOCUMENT the steps in 3 1/2 hours!

Taking part names from FA-4 (diagram SFA860A) in the 1990 Q45 FSM, I am hoping the "Transverse Link Assembly" and the "Tension Rod" on each side don't have to be removed in order to drop the front engine crossmember.

So, the next big question is whether or not the "transverse link assembly" can remain on the Q45?

In the photo below, I'm sure the two bolts circled in yellow must be removed.
If we can just remove the one bolt circled in red, then perhaps the rest of the bolts (circled in blue) and the transverse link assembly can remain.

What will happen when (if) that red-circled bolt is removed.
Will the transverse link assembly violently swing down?

(Note: The car is supported on jack stands on the 'frame' but it's still on wheels which are in backward-facing ramps for extra support.)

If we can't get away with removing the two yellow circled bolts and the one red-circled bolt (on each side), then all those blue-circled bolts will have to come out (which is double the effort as far as I can tell).

Any suggestions for removing the red-circled bolt below?

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_transverse_link_assembly.jpg (71504 bytes, downloaded 4575 times)

see the problem is (You cant see it unless you remove the wheel) that there is a bolt under the transverse link... You cant see it from the bottom.....!!! This other bolt would be about in the center of where your red circle is..

If you simply remove it there nothing it will do... It wont flop down since theres other stuff holding it up (upper links).. You *might* be able to just remove that, ubt then there are other things to remove too....

I guess its worth a shot, but remember safety is a key priority, as you have basically one chance... I will wait for others to chime in (robert) but I am pretty sure that the suspenison will need to come out.....

How many bolts actually pertain to just the crossmember itself?

I can easily count twelve (six on each side) potential candidates I can see:
I'll post three pictures showing (for each side):
a) The two aforementioned bolts holding crossmember to Q45 body.
b) The two engine mount bolts (they certainly need to be removed).
c) The two closest-to-the-centerline bolts (do they need to be removed)?
If we add the hidden two bolts, that makes 14 candidates for removal.

Of these, how many actually need to be removed?

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_crossmember_dozen_bolts.jpg (71886 bytes, downloaded 4328 times)

However, while its out you should replace your rack bushings.....

Basically, you have to remove the engine from the cross member, and hte cross member from the Q45.....

BTW: Are you removing the entire subframe or working around it? If you are removing the whole thing, it appears the outer tie rods must come off as well (from looking at mine).
PS: Use lots of lube on the steering joint PB-Blaster, or WD-40 since the splines usually rust together a little; removing the bolt completely and prying apart (a little) with a screwdriver in the slot should give it room to slide off.

Modified by squeefoo at 4:39 PM 11/9/2004

I mirror what he said though.. Just rmove that bolt and move it out of hte way.. that way you dont remove tie rods and other stuff like that.......

Didn't (can't) see that, haven't had mine off. The rack mount sugg. is spot on. This is like reading IRS CFR 26.

Quote, originally posted by Wes »

Remove the engine from the cross member, and the cross member from the Q45

GREAT ADVICE (nicely summarized!). What I'll try is to remove first the 2 nuts (on each side) holding each of the motor mounts to the front engine crossmember.

Those 4 nuts (two on each side) should disconnect the engine from the crossmember, right?

I'll put a jack stand under the front engine crossmember (for safety) as suggested by Wes; and then (after removing the two easier nuts holding the crossmember to the frame), I will either remove the one sidewise bolt holding the transverse link assembly to the crossmember or I will remove the front wheels and see if we can access the mysterious hidden bolt without disconnecting the transverse link assembly (see photo below).

Those 6 nuts (three on each side) should remove the crossmember from the Q45 (correct?)

The total number of crossmember nuts (or bolts) seems to be 10 (right?).

Quote, originally posted by Wes »

while [the crossmember is] out you should replace your rack bushings

This is probably good advice but I have no idea what you are suggesting.
I presume you mean the rack & pinion steering has a bushing (rubber thingey) somewhere? Looking at the steering section of the 90 FSM, I only see mention of a "center bushing" but it seems the "gear and linkage assembly" has to be disassembled to get to it (page ST-19, diagram SST472A). The fact it's a "center" bushing implies there are "edge" bushings elsewhere, but, I see none in the "Steering System" chapter.

BTW, while I was looking up Wes' bearing suggestion, I finally realized the reason the "steering lower joint" is called that is there is a joint above it in the steering column (presumably called the "steering upper joint") which separates the steering column upper shaft (connected to the steering wheel) to the steering column lower shaft (connected to the steering "gear and linkage assembly"). If I had known all this, I wouldn't have asked where it was as I would have found it myself. I feel so stooopid sometimes.

Quote, originally posted by squeefoo »

Are you removing the entire subframe or working around it?

What's a subframe? I don't see anything called that in the "FA" front axle section of the 1990 FSM? I don't even understand the question so I can't help answer it yet.

Quote, originally posted by squeefoo »

Use lots of lube on the steering joint PB-Blaster

PB-Blaster? That was a new one to me. Google pointed me to the web site http://www.pbblaster.com which espouses a bust-the-rust penetrant oil better than WD-40. I'll see if the local auto shop sells it.

Quote, originally posted by squeefoo »

This is like reading IRS CFR 26

Apparently, from a google search, that's the Internal Revenue Service, Code of Federal Regulations, Title 26 which (I guess) is a complex set of rules?
(www.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/cfrassemble.cgi?title=199926)
It's off topic, but, the set of rules seemed so complex that I couldn't even summarize what they pertained to (they seemed so broad).

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_engine_crossmember_diagram.jpg (72525 bytes, downloaded 4134 times)

Before you start work, have the enigne jacked up.. I dont know what would happen if you try and remove the motor mount bolts with the engine not supported (may fall slightly.. Causing dents and other bad things?).. So as a rule of thumb, have the engine supported AT LEAST partially before you start taking stuff off "the iron cross of death".....

I woudl put a jack under there, not a stand... You want to be able to lower it, because once you get it all unbolted, its still VERY heavy with all that crap still attached... So put a hydraulic jack you can easlily lower down and pull out from under the car.....

Quote »

Those 6 nuts (three on each side) should remove the crossmember from the Q45 (correct?) The total number of crossmember nuts (or bolts) seems to be 10 (right?).

From my understanding, yes......

Rack bushings: Take a gander at section ST... On my 94 Q45 FSM its ST-12. It shows a diagram of the steering rack (model PR26SE). THe rack bushings are called "rack mounting insulators"..... Since this all comes down with the cross member, they will take about 5 mins to replace if its out of the car..... Look at the section that starts out REMOVAL and INSTALLATION...

Sub frame- antoehr term for the cross member..... Its bolted onto the main frame (basically you could say the body of the Q45) and its a "frame" that holds the powertrain......

PB blaster is good stuff.. I think advance sells it.. Its expensive, but effective..... $7/ can, pick up a couple youll use it all the time...

PB Blaster works even better when you presoak everything you plan to remove. Just take a few minutes and a flashlight and shoot everything, especially trying to spray the thread side. If you can't see the threads then flood the area this helps a lot. PB goes a long way I think only one can is needed.

As Wes said: "iron cross of death" also "K frame" - "subframe" - "engine cradle" - "crossmember". Sloppy slang/nomenclature on my part. Are you going to remove it completely or lower and work around it?

I recommend you place another floor jack under the cross member perhaps with a 2x4 similar to the width inbetween to help distribute the weight. Depending on how you are disconnecting the steering rod from the rack, you may actually end up with one side dropping lower than the other. It will be at a tilt and this is definitely not safe. You'll have to hammer down the driver side to get the rack removed from the steering rod. The adjustability of a jack for this is helpful.

Is it really not possible just to lower the frame low enough to get clearance? Even on my KA24DE with a pan that spanned from front to back, I was able to manuever it out.

I wasn't sure what a post 4 point lift was.
I presume it's what I see at these sites:
http://www.autolifters.com/4postLifts.html
http://www.johnbean.com/1600-1...t.asp
http://jinhua.en.alibaba.com/p....html
As opposed to a scissor lift:
http://www.ultimategarage.com/lifts.htm
or otherwise.

I do agree that we can jump out of the way faster & easier with the Q45 up in the air. I also agree that putting a jack on the crossmember spreading out the weight with a 2 by 4 makes more sense than jack stands.

I also wonder, if the crossmember is so heavy as to require a jack, how in the world am I going to get it back on if I remove it in the first place.

These questions, and the safety considerations, are all valid and should be a cause for reflection. As the saying goes, there are bold mechanics and there are old mechanics, but, there are few old bold mechanics.

Attachment: 4PostVan.jpg (30762 bytes, downloaded 3538 times)

Closest approximation to that I can get is to put the Q45 on jackstands at
2 or 4 points along the 'frame rail".

I did so this morning and finally found the third bolt (see photo below).

It's gonna be mighty difficult to get to that nut with conventional tools.

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_crossmember_3rd_bolt_location.jpg (65752 bytes, downloaded 3505 times)

I sucessfully finished pulling the engine from my Q45... Let me make a couple quick notes...

Just forget about those bolts on the cross member without air tools... I busted out the impact wrench, and it saved so much time and LOTS Of effort.... I LUV air tools

I took a BUNCH of pictures for you, and ill upload them when I get home, as I dont have adequate software on my laptop'

Even a very long breaker bar just wont do it.... Air tools, gotta have em, and gotta love em....

Just so you know, my wrench couldnt get off those bolts for the motor mounts... Theyre on there really tight, and the egnine is still attached to the crossmember...

I'm following you and taking your advice all the way.
Here is a closeup (as close as I can get) of the hidden crossmember nut.

We can see there is definately a hole there but I agree, why else would that
bolt exist if the nut didn't hold the front engine crossmember to the frame?

I'm leaning toward believing the Nissan engineers didn't see the need for a
double layer of metal so they cut away the first level but left the second
layer of steel for the nut to hold the crossmember to the frame with.

So, I await your autopsy results with interest.

Attachment: nico_q45_crossmember_third_nut_closeup.gif (445381 bytes, downloaded 3935 times)

Following your lead, I bought, earlier today at a garage sale, a 220 volt 4 horsepower 20 gallon 125 psi Sears compressor and an air impact wrench (for twenty bucks each).

Normally tools don't let me down, but, this one failed me miserably.
I hope it was just something I've done wrong.
I'm totally unfamiliar with air impact tools so please advise me here.

Shouldn't the air impact driver have been able to remove wheel lug nuts?
It wouldn't even budge them.
Once I hand-loosened them, it spun them off with ease.
But, I had to do the hard work.
What am I doing wrong?

Since it's off topic, I posted to the "Engineering Talk" forum asking what I did wrong (you can answer there if you like):
http://www.nicoclub.com/zeropo...90368
"www.nicoclub.com/zeropost?cmd=tshow&id=90368"

The 220 volt compressor motor seemed to work fine (after I changed the oil) as it output up to 115 PSI reliably (based on the output regulator guage). The tank guage read 125 psi.

The specs printed on the tank indicate at 40 psi, it puts out 10.3 scfm
while at 90 psi it puts out 8.5 scfm.

The 50 foot hose that came with the compressor is kinda smallish (3/8?).
The impact gun seems to have 4 settings (see photo on the noted thread).

I'm wondering if impact tools garner more torque with CFM or with PSI?
That is, should I use lower CFM (higher PSI) or lower PSI (higher CFM) to get the most torque?
Also, which setting is the most torque (1 or 4)? (I didn't feel any difference.)
Is the hose too long (50 feet) and too thin (about 3/8 OD).

What do YOU use to generate enough uuumph to unstick crossmember nuts?
That is, what am I doing wrong with this setup?

Note: you can post the answer to the other thread as it's not really an oilpan R&R question, per se. But, I was hoping to follow your lead & impact those nuts off the crossmember.

I need advice 'cause I never used these kinds of tools before.

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_compressor_impact_wrench_questions.jpg (68392 bytes, downloaded 3225 times)

Here are some choices for impact wrenches:
http://www.harborfreight.com/c...ype=S

I think it's great that people like I am don't have to feel too stooopid (and embarrassed) to ask these kinds of very basic tool questions as I did here and in http://www.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=90368 ("www.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=90368").

The NICO community is just fantastic (I just hope I can contribute as much as I gain)!

Attachment: nico_q45_question_and_answer_team.jpg (70147 bytes, downloaded 4018 times)

He's the only one who didn't have an avatar that I wanted in the question mark (as it's the sum total of all the folks who've helped me in the past).

Coincidentally, this collection seems to be the most helpful bunch of guys for any set of Infiniti Q45 posts (based on a quick manual thread survey I ran today).

I didn't want to leave Dennis out and I wanted something fitting, yet not too bold. This is what I came up with (we can easily change the colors if necessary).

Attachment: nico_proposed_q45tech_avatar.gif (4687 bytes, downloaded 2688 times)

Yes the hose is too long, if 20' reaches try that and they're cheap -and 3/8" is fine. Look at the hole in each end, less than 3/8" I bet.
The 2 things I saw in the pic were a long extension, those absorb the "torsion spikes" from the gun, by not allowing all the twisting forces to reach the bolt head. Use the shortest extension possible if at all. Impact sockets don't stretch (ever so slightly -but everything counts) when the twising starts. Took me awhile to figure this one out -an old timer had to tell me.

Putting fresh oil in the gun is a plus. Put it handle up and put some oil (trans fluid works in a pinch) about a teaspoon where the air goes in, depress the trigger and let it sit for a few minutes to loosen any gunk, the put a rag in front of it where the air comes out, and pull the trigger. The rag catches the ensuing mess.
Congrats on getting that thing off.
PS My Grandma used to say "you can't know what you don't know."

I like Q45tech's new avatar! He's like Merlin! I hope he downloads the pic and loads it as his avatar! As far as the cool question mark, I'm just happy to be included!

Done- Jeff Williams FSTB, Touring Rear Sway Bar, Valve Cover Gaskets, Fuel Filter, Spark Plugs, Brakes, Michelin Pilot Exalto 96V tires, Cleaned MAF, Cleaned Throttle Body, Cleaned EGR, Steering Rack Boots, Upper Links, Tokiko Blues, Boots and Bump Stops, Replaced Various Bushings, Mobile 1 Oil and Filter, BG-44K, Synthetic Fluid in Diff.

Pending- Alignment, Transmission Cooler

1994 Black/Black Q45 150,500 miles
1998 Beige/Beige QX4 164,000 miles
1995 Black/Black J30 (RIP)
1997 Beige/Beige QX4 (RIP)

I can't budge the nuts on that crossmember.
Not one!
I tried every yoga-like position I know, pushing against the frame, pulling on the wrenches, etc. Unfortunately for me, not only did the air impact wrench not budge any nuts or bolts, but most of the time I couldn't use it as the angles were too severe.

Plus, the transverse link horizontal arm MUST come off (to access the nut underneath), but I didn' t have any 19mm box wrenches (mine only went to 18mm) so all I had were sockets that I couldn't get the air gun to or that the 1-foot length of my 1/2 inch socket wrench wouldn't budge a micron.

So, what do I do when I'm in deep trouble?
I do some research ... then ... I go shopping!

IMPACT TOOLS:
I picked up an impact socket set (hoping the extra rigidity will help).
I added three different impact extension lengths.
Plus a funny-looking pole-in-a-tub impact universal joint (for access).

AIR GUN:
I bought a quart of 30 weight oil (as multi-viscosity just won't do according to my research as it carbonizes under extreme pressure).
I bought an oil-can to put about an ounce of the SAE 30 API SL single-weight in the air gun (as it's almost certainly dry as a bone).
I think the oil filler hole is in the side of the gun (see photo below).

LEVERAGE:
I bought 2 different lengths of breaker bar (they didn't have anything longer).
And, for insurance, three 30-inch lengths of pipe (1 1/4, 1 1/2, and 2 inch ID).

WRENCHES:
I picked up a 19mm/17mm combination box wrench but I needed two (one to hold the nut and one to twist the bolt ... hmmmm... or is it the other way around?) so I picked up an entire additional set which also included 20mm, 21mm, 22mm, etc.

Gotta run to work but please advise how to get enough uuumph to get those gosh drat darn nuts off!!!! $%#@!$#@$$$ !

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_crossmember_leverage_tools.jpg (185487 bytes, downloaded 3090 times)

Yes, sometimes you have to loosen the bolt by hand first. Pipe works the best, while holding the very end -avoid jerking the handle/pipe if its on stands as is yours, for obvious reasons. Another thing is to make sure you are braced against the car itself! using your legs to push, don't just push/pull on the car while it's on stands (obviously) so you don't push it off (easier than you think, but don't worry). You will prob. hear a "torque spike" as it lets go, it's just the rust/ etc. shearing off and may be loud. Put on gloves -in case it pops off or loosens real quick -to save your knuckles from grinders (OUCH). Then if it's loose use your "revived" air wrench to save labor. Keep applying PB Blaster, a little goes a long way.
Hopefully none break on you.

The "rattle gun/impact wrench/hammer wrench/zip gun" could be weak from under oiling, under use, dried lube, or stuck vanes. Which is why putting ATF down the air intake to loosen grime is a plus, as above: handle up, approx. 1 tsp in, then pull the trigger for a few minutes (rubber band) to allow the ATF to soak into the "guts" and loosen the stuff. You might try this a time or two. Use a rag in front since oil/junk will spray out.

19mm is just about the same as 3/4" just a little off.

Hold the bolt and remove the nut, then remove the bolt. Sometimes you have to hit it with a hammer, on the end without upsetting the threads (put a nut on for a few threads), to get it started in the right direction (out). Use PB.

I did it, and it took them off like they were on like nothing..... I couldnt hardly budge them with a breaker bar...... Didnt use any lube.....

However, to be of the greatest service here; I assumed to cover general aspects based on about 25 years of working on everything from bicycles and motorcycles, to every type of car and semis. I'm sure everyone's experience will differ.

Since Tangalora (or whoever reads this in the future) hasn't done too much of this before -some general large bolt advice was in order, to cover the bases, so time is not wasted due to lack of this possibly overlooked knowledge.

A neighbor ambled by today (my "operation" seems to be the talk of the neighborhood lately, based on the dog walkers & baby pushers who go by every day asking how'zit going).

This friendly soul must've heard me cursing up a storm 'cause he handed me a dinged up can of Kano Labs "Sili Kroil". I almost burst out laughing when I saw the bright orange can. I thought it was some kind of left-over halloween trickster magic-in-a-can.

Boy, did I stop laughin' fast!

When I sprays' me some of that stuff on the motor mounts and grab the newly oiled impact gun with the tank regulator set at 90 psi using the new impact sockets, u-joints, and extensions, setting the gun regulator to #4 and ... wrreerrreeereerrreerrugmmh ... wrreerrreeereerrreerrugmmh ... wrreerrreeereerrreerrugmmh ... wrreerrreeereerrreerrugmmh ... off comes all four nuts to the two motor mounts. Kewl!

Likewise, the transverse-link-to-torsion rod two nuts and the one nut holding what appears to be a bushing to the sway bar also whirred right off the transverse link assembly. Nice!

http://www.kanolabs.com ("www.kanolabs.com")
1000 East Thompson Lane, P.O. Box 110098, Nashville, Tennessee 37222-0098
800-311-3374
Silikroil aerosol - $8.00 each can
Silikroil aerosol- case of 12 cans - $69.95 / case

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_kano_sili_kroil.gif (201066 bytes, downloaded 2790 times)

While the resurrected impact wrench handled the motor mounts and torsion bar nuts with ease, it still wouldn't budge the 1 nut/bolt attaching the transverse rod to the crossmember & the 3 nuts holding the crossmember to the frame (on each side).

To remove the frozen horizontal torsion bar bolt, I had to wedge the new 19mm box wrench between the bolt head and the frame and then place the 19mm combination wrench on the nut. As you intimated, I then braced my body against the frame and slowly and evenly (but forcefully) pressed with my thighs forcing my feet onto the end of the longer combination wrench, all the while holding the frame with my hands and pressing my back into the concrete as if a machine gun was sending bullets overhead.

They didn't relent without complaining ... but, after a series of quick, closely spaced loud and agonizingly sharp cracks!, Screech! Ahkh ... ackh ... ackh, that darn bolt loosened right up and spun out by hand![/.b]

By nightfall tonight, it wsa the same with the other side (after a mistaken attempt in the wrong direction, accidentally tightening the bolt even further).


Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_torsion_bar_horizontal_bolt.jpg (110378 bytes, downloaded 2647 times)

Interestingly, the passenger-side motor mount required an 8 to 10 inch impact extension, while the driver-side mounts were best spun off with a 6-inch extension.

Here's a shot of the driver-side moto mount, sans the two 14mm nuts.

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_driver_side_motor_mount_sans_nuts.jpg (108217 bytes, downloaded 3272 times)

I recommend the following sequence to remove the transverse link:
- First: remove the one 14 mm nut holding the "stabilizer connecting rod" to the forward portion of the transverse link
- Second: remove the two 17 mm nuts holding the "tension rod" to the forward portion of the transverse link
- Third: remove the one 19 mm nut and four-inch long bolt holding the transverse link to the front engine crossmember

BTW, I was scared that the transverse links (which look so very beefy) would violently swing down (due to some unknown spring action) and crush me when I removed the 4 nuts and 1 bolt holding it on ... so, for the next poor soul removing and replacing a Q45 oil pan, I can tell you that it just meekly drops down a bit easily allowing you to hand push it down and away from blocking the otherwise inaccessible center crossmember bolt.

Here 's a late-night shot of both transverse links now safely out of the way.

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_transverse_links_pushed_aside.jpg (68648 bytes, downloaded 2321 times)