The deflection in the problem is just under .006". I believe the formula is W*L^3/3*E*I.

Understood. I had a lot of trouble finding any metric bolts stronger than 8,8 (even after checking out a few local parts places). Maybe I'll stop by the Infiniti dealership today to see if they have some in stock. I actually don't like the bolts I have right now anyway (40 mm long) as they are about 15 mm too long.

What happened, when I screwed them in, is they ground to a halt about 10 threads into (about 3/4 inch) the heads. So, they are now sticking out about an inch, with the chain held on with a small-bore fender washer. I'd prefer to bolt that chain tight to the engine so I need a smaller bolt (but a longer one than is stock for the ground wire bolt).

If I use a 30 to 35 mm bolt, then that should at least reduce the moment on the cantilever.

Quote »

The deflection in the problem is just under .006". I believe the formula is W*L^3/3*E*I.

Thanks. I just couldn't get that equation to work. Presumably this is deflection w/o bending (elastic deflection) .. otherwise the yield equation would paly a role.

I very much appreciate your help. You're not only helping me, but, you're helping others (as I try really hard to provide full details for the next DIY).

This weekend, I'll be flying to Austin for a family member's wedding, so, I won't be able to work on this wonderful learning experience 'till I return.

In the meantime, notice I followed everyone's advice to remove the plastic cowl coverings; it's a good thing I did as they were hiding the true support points. (These photos were taken last night so they are a bit dark.)

How does the makeshift chain-slingersetup look at the moment?

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_transverse_engine_support_setup_with_makeshift_chain.jpg (151881 bytes, downloaded 2194 times)

The shorter the bolt the less bending stress. But once you no longer bottom out on the bolt, and you torque things up properly, there is no bending stress at all--only shear and tension. This is the job of the slinger, and why you're always supposed to use a properly attached slinger, lift fitting, or even just bolt the chain directly to the enigne. The location of the lift point makes this difficult on the VH without the slinger.

Quote »

I just couldn't get that equation to work. Presumably this is deflection w/o bending (elastic deflection) .. otherwise the yield equation would paly a role.

Oops..That's the equation when L = a = 1"; things cancel out. There will always be some bending when you apply a moment. Whether the stresses induced approach the yield point is the concern.

Looks good (from the photo). The peg is on the cowl support arms where it should be.

If you just bolt the chain tight to the engine with the bolt sticking out just the width of the chain link (what is it, maybe 1/4th. inch), then you've just reduced the forces on the bolt by the fourth power. I would bet a chain bolted to the engine is as strong as the OEM setup. Yet it has the ability to sway even better than the OEM part. Go for it!

I am more concerned with you doing the job without a 4 post lift and screw jacks.........where you can jump out of the way fast if something goes wrong. Gravity gives you 6 feet in 0.6 seconds and there is always some resistance to a free fall.

Attachment: engine.jpg (30258 bytes, downloaded 1852 times)

I am glad to say that I have not had any problems and have driven over 1K miles since the fix.

1) I JB welded the whole closed,
2) Slapped on some Belzona
3) Cut out a piece of aluminum and molded it around the corner that was damaged
4) JB welded the aluminum patch over the whole and
5) Put some more Belzona over all of it.

Total time... 30 minutes actual labor, however I had to wait several hours for the JB weld to cure and the Belzona to dry between steps.

It is probably stronger now than before the accident.

I had never heard of Belzona before all of this, but it is some amazing stuff. If you go to thier website http://www.belzona.com/oil.html you can see all of its applications. I'm not sure where you can buy the stuff, my friend is a mechanic for a chemical company and thats how he got it, he uses it on the job. He has also used it on his circle track car when the water jacket on his engine block sprung a leak.

Discover the power of the button!

I guess it takes an "experts" advice for you guys to hear it.

Anyway. Good job. Hope it lasts.

Freedoms lost are seldom restored.

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have" Thomas Jefferson

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." Cesare Beccaria, 1767 (Later quoted by Thomas Jefferson)

1. I loved Dennis' picture. Made me laugh. Humor is excellent medicine. He's right also. It's a risky job. That's why I asked NICO first. That's why I bought the right tools. That's why I ordered the right parts. I'll certainly put jack stands under the engine (probably under the crankshaft) where I can & I'll jack up the transmission too. One of the best reasons for doing this is to help the next pour soul who has to do the same job. If I don't explain the step by step, with photos, who will? One mistake and, splat! If we leave it up to others to guess, that just might happen. So, I go slowly (very slowly) (as I'm timid). But, timid keeps me alive too. For now anyway.

2. JB Weld was the 1st thing I bought. Never heard of Belzona (will check up on that). I'm ecstatic it worked. I had previously posted I thought it could work but I was worried about the longevity & prospect of breaking down in death valley at high noon. I guess I'm more timid than you. Besides, I already bought the oil pan (it's sitting in my garage along with the new belts & new fan blade & assorted new bolts for the modified engine slinger). And, my old pan is dented (although those dents may be old as I tend to run over small things like curb dividers when I don't see them looking over the windshield with this big hefty Q).

3. Speaking of the makeshift engine slinger, I think I might take Daedalus up on his kind offer. But first, I'll check today or tomorrow (swamped at work as nobody does my job when I leave so it just piles up on my desk) with Joe to see if the ETA has changed yet on the one I already paid for. (I already picked up all sorts of differently sized 10mm bolts so as to be able to tell the next poor soul exactly what length is best.)

I'll post a reply tonight when I find out more information.
Hope my attached humor isn't too macabre.

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_engine_squish_yuck.jpg (48861 bytes, downloaded 1894 times)

Two excellente points about q45tech's comments above.

1) Based on the evidence only here found nowhere else everyone must be using chains bolted to the block because very few slingers are purchased. You wouldnt know this by looking at the FSM. And some are dangerously close to killing themselves as you yourself noted. Even T3 may be dangerously close according to dads calculations.

2) While this thread is indeed long & varied nowhere else in the world is this information as far as I can tell. For example where else on the internet or in the FSM does it show how to sling this engine. Nowhere but here. Where else does it show that the engine slinger part is not part of the engine? Nowhere but here. My FSM shows the slinger as part of the engine. Mechanics don't even know it exists so they use chains. Where else does it show the calculation which shows chains to be dangerous under certain known circumstances? Where else does it show the weak point in using chains? Where else does it show that the alternative method (JB + B) solves some problems. Nowhere else. Where else are the actual steps shown to remove the oil pan. Partially in the FSM and partially in Hanes but not anywhere near as indepth as right here. So it took 250 posts to get here. Fact is we are here and that is pretty far. There is more to go and I dont care if it takes another 250 posts to get there. Its not like it isnt an interesting jorney.

So I think it is a virtue that this thread is so excellent that nowhere in the FSM or in the internet is this information available. Maybe its in a TSB but nobody has come forth so I doubt that. Prove me wrong and thats even better.

Wooo hooo! The reclusive Q45 front engine slinger finally arrived!

Just as I was about to call the boys at Scottsdale Infiniti or Daedalus to take him up on his kind offer, I spied an inconspicuous eight-dollar freight-charged plain brown package sitting on my doorstep. I don't even know how long it was there (as I enter the house from the rear). In the box was (just) the long awaited nine-dollar slinger from Joe. (Surprisingly, Scottsdale Infiniti couldn't get the requisite $1.58 bolts (BOLT-HEX 08171-0221A) and washers (WASHER SPRING 08915-34010), so I'm still on my own for those. I vastly prefer obtaining the right parts from Nissan (and I'm mildly surprised a simple bolt would be out of stock ... I mean ... is it that special a bolt?). Yet, armed mightily with Daedalus' well-thought-out & simplified mechanical-engineering calculations, I think I can be safe with two store-bought 10mm x 1.5 hex-head bolts of an 8.8 metalurgical grade based on my previous Internet research.

The (I think minor irritating) question arises as to the proper bolt length & washers.

Based on my measurements (see photo below), the original 15mm long 9-thread ground-strap bolt fits nicely in the 4mm thick 7-inch-long front engine slinger with 7 threads to spare into the block (not counting any washers). So, 15 or 20mm long bolts seem comfortably appropriate. Anything longer will bottom out in the head causing the unwanted cantilever which Daedalus clearly showed is a mathematical no no (as it adds a power of four to the imposed bolt off-axis stress).

I have a question about the spring washer. What is that? Is that just a washer? Or is it something special? I'm initially inclined to simply use a 'regular' washer (I'll lose a thread of grip into the head but gain on-axis strength for the bolt according to what I learned on the Internet about washer effectiveness).

What washer would you use?

I also am curious about the cryptic marking on the original Nissan bolt (see photo).

What does that "6" (or is it a "9") on the bolt indicate?

I suspect it indicates the bolt's grade, but, it doesn't seem to correspond to what I've learned on the Internet for metric bolts (which use two numbers separated by a period).

I suspect most mechanics don't even ask these questions, so, please be patient with me. One thing you can assume is, that by spending effort publically helping me, you can thereby help many other poor souls at the same time or in the future who deign to tackle this task on their own for the sake of doing the job right.

BTW, notice they spelled Slinger "Sliger" in the Nissan sticker in the photo below. Maybe that's why they sell only two or three every fifteen years.

-- Summary --
Q1: What is a "spring" washer and what would you use to replace it?
Q2: What is that "6" marking on the original bolt supposed to indicate?
Q3: What's so special about these parts to make them so painful to obtain?

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_font_engine_slinger_photo_with_bolt.jpg (175202 bytes, downloaded 1793 times)

I have to remove my Q45 engine here sometime

Sure. I keep all my tools forever (as I've said before, tools are better than diamonds as your best friend), so borrowing is preferred. That's why I still have tapered pickle forks (from replacing a pitman arm on an old 60's Dodge), a welder (patching a NY rusted-out 70's 280Z rocker panel), assorted Reed & Torx screwdrivers (various & sundry headlight adjustments), a hand impact driver (try replacing an old Honda 250 CB N clutch without one) fuel-injector tester (testing my 80's 300Z), dial gauges (measuring rotor runout on the 90's Q45), flare-nut wrenches, hose pliars, etc. Even this oilpan r&r job added a gleaming white set of OTC engine support bars to my beloved toolbox treasures.

I should warn you I can't promise when (or if) I'll ever finish this job as it has been two months and, together, we've made many important yet still theoretical discoveries. As a practical matter, the surprisingly low price of the hard-to-get slinger ($8.66) is about the charge for one-way shipping ($8.50), so, it seems the more pragmatic approach (if folks have the time to spare) is to call Joe and have him send it ahead of time. If you call now, and it takes three weeks, you'll still probably have it before I'm finished.

BTW, for those following in our footsteps. I bought two new 10mm x 1.5 (8.8 grade) bolts today, this time 20mm long (my fourth experimental set) to replace the one 15mm long #6 (whatever that means) bolt holding the ground strap to the engine head. I bought two 'regular' washers (to replace the fender washers I had previously purchased to hold the chain in place). (They're starting to remember me at the store since I've been coming in so often for various sized bolts & asking a lot of questions about the various grades of steel.)

When I assembled these bolts & washers on the slinger (see photo) about 8 threads remain to engage with the threaded bosses on the head. (Note in the previous picture, I had placed the bolts in the slinger backward; this error has been corrected in the photo below.) Also note that one could create their own slinger tool simply by holding a 8-inch long steel plate, 3 inches wide, in a vise, and bending the plate at two points, the first 1 inch up, the second 2 inches past the first bend, then drilling two 12 mm holes exactly 5 1/8 inches apart (center to center) in the first one-inch bend - and then boring out a 1 1/2 inch by 3/4 inch oblong hole in the end of the third five-inch segment. That's a lot of work for a nine-dollar tool, so, of course, that home-made approach would only be feasible if the slinger wasn't available from Joe. The simpler chain approach (with a 25 mm long bolt & fender washers instead) seems also (barely) acceptable but a LOT less safe if the bolts stick out any distance from the engine & if their metalurgical grade isn't one of the highest available as previously covered in our calculations.

Still curious, does anyone know what that "6" indicates on the original Nissan bolt?

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_engine_slinger_with_20mm_bolt_and_washer.jpg (179722 bytes, downloaded 1746 times)

The FSM refers to 3 different marks on graded fastener heads...4, 7 and 9. The 9 indicates the bolt is graded 9T, and takes a standard torque of 43 foot-lbs for a 10x1.5mm bolt.

Also, some of my prior pictures (including the last one) still show the bolts going into the slinger the wrong way, so again, I re-corrected it in this photo (see insert below).

For others to benefit, the perfect bolts to hold the slinger to the head appear to be two 10mm diam x 1.5 threads/mm x 20 mm long at 8.8 grade with a corresponding washer.

Here, for the next poor soul, is a photo of the engine now properly slung (because I wish I had this photo BEFORE I started this trek). I don't think this is explained anywhere else on the Internet.

Notice I had to remove all the air-intake components up to the throttle body (I think that's what it's called) in order to tightly attach the front engine slinger.

Also notice I covered the throttle body opening in saran wrap to keep the elements out in the time it takes me to complete this job.

And, notice all radiator plastic but the fan shroud removed so as to reliably determine the strongest spot for the engine support (note that the complete shroud had to be removed at a later stage as will be explained later).

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_engine_support_with_both_slingers_attached.jpg (102449 bytes, downloaded 2091 times)

If this is NOT the strongest section of the cowl, please advise!

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_engine_support_topside_properly.jpg (56198 bytes, downloaded 1510 times)

With chocks at the rear tires, I jacked up the car at the crossmember and placed two jack stands on the "frame" and lowered the Q45 onto them. These I plan to be the main supports.

For safety, I added ramps (notice they are situated BACKWARD) under each front tire (assuming the wheels need not be removed).

To support the transmission, I placed a single jack stand at the bell housing for the flywheel.

Does this 3-stage Q45 support from the underside seem safe to you?

Attachment: nico_q45_underside_engine_support.jpg (57522 bytes, downloaded 1504 times)

Does this look like the best way to support the transmission?

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_transmission_support_plan.jpg (58094 bytes, downloaded 1350 times)

Notice the circled "engine gusset" overshadows one corner of the oilpan. Upon close inspection, it appears all but one of the bolts holding on the oil pan could be accessed without removing the engine gusset, but, that one bolt will require the gusset to be removed.

To remove the gusset, I will need to remove the air conditioning compressor; and to remove the compressor, I will need to remove the alternator.

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_engine_gusset_underside_bolts.jpg (79205 bytes, downloaded 1406 times)

What else do I need to do to remove the alternator?

As circled in the photo below, I removed both bolts on the outside of the alternator (after removing all three crankshaft pully belts). But, the alternator won't come off.

I'm sure there are wires somewhere.
Are they behind the alternator somehow?

What more do I need to do (than remove the two bolts) to remove the alternator from the car?

Please advise.

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_alternator_removal_question.jpg (80402 bytes, downloaded 1465 times)

Things are looking good for your project.

Again, I'm not convinced you have to remove the alt, but if so, hope that helps.

If I may paraphrase what you said (so as to ensure I understand it), are you saying the alternator is held on only by those two bolts (plus a snug fit).

Therefore, since both bolts are out, I should be able to wiggle the alternator out of its snug fit? Or maybe bang it out with a hammer. Or maybe leverage it out with a crow bar?

And, if the field & output wires are attached, they must be attached in the rear, right?

Will those wires be removable once I wiggle the alternator out of its snug fit?
Please confirm if you can as I'm a bit confused what's holding the alternator in there (as I already removed the two bolts and it didn't come out when I tried).

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_alternator_tough_to_remove.jpg (65491 bytes, downloaded 1356 times)

Your help so far (as has been everyone's) has been accurate.

I only think the alternator needs to come off because the FSM says so ... and I stared for an eternity at the underside of the oil pan (hoping beyond hope that I didn't have to sequentially remove the alternator, a/c compressor, and engine gusset) and I am mostly thinking the gusset has to come off.

Why?

Because it seems (to me, anyway), there is at least one oil pan bolt which might be inaccessible without removing the engine gusset. See the photo below which points out where that inaccessible bolt is (I couldn't get a perfect shot of it as the light wouldn't penetrate).

It seems the a/c compressor blocks removal of the gusset; and the alternator blocks removal of the a/c compressor. Drat.

That's why I ask whether only the two bolts hold on the alternator?

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_engine_gusset_overshadow_oil_pan_bolt.jpg (79850 bytes, downloaded 1471 times)

I think the gusset blocks (at least) one bolt of the oil pan.
The a/c compressor blocks removal of the gusset (I think).
The alternator (I think) blocks removal of the a/c compressor.

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_closeup_engine_gusset_underside_blocking_bolt.jpg (257947 bytes, downloaded 1471 times)

According to page EM-11 of the 1990 Q45 Factory Shop Manual (diagram SEM866C), the instructions simply say:
- REMOVE STEERING LOWER JOINT

Why? Where is it?

The diagram in the FSM appears to show something splined near a bent rod (which might be a torsion bar or something like that), attached near the "frame" and the exhaust (this diagram confuses me to no end).

What is the "steering lower joint"?
Why would it need to be removed?

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_where_is_the_steering_lower_joint.jpg (62338 bytes, downloaded 1485 times)

As far as the oil pan bolt, I thought they were all visible at least. If you can't see it from any angle then you probably can't get to it.

The alt is held on with the 2 bolt only. The friction on the bracket is what's holding it up. Leverage is a better friend to electronic equipment than hammering is.

Attached is a picture of the steering joint..... Have some lube handy, and spray it on both ends..... Easiest if you pull out and move it up on the steering shaft..... For orientation purposes, this is on hte drivers side..... The metal thing is the drivers side exhaust manifold...

The reason it must be removed is because it connects the rack to the car, and the rack will stay attached to the suspension cross member when you take it down......

I removed my alternator this weekend too... What a pain in the ***! I twisted mine counter clockwise... basically what I had to do is get under the car, took my breaker bar, and banged it so that it slid up..... like Robert said you just have to yell, scream, cuss, and yank to get it out..... THen you have those PITA connectors once you get it out......

You might as well remove the tires, because ALL the suspension is coming off...... The upper links, tension rods, and so forth... The lower (transverse links?) have to be removed too because there are 3 bolts each side holing it on..... I almost got my engine out this weekend, gonna have to go back up.... Made my slinger from the chains and so forth....

Attachment: steeringjoint.jpg (70014 bytes, downloaded 1171 times)

Done- Jeff Williams FSTB, Touring Rear Sway Bar, Valve Cover Gaskets, Fuel Filter, Spark Plugs, Brakes, Michelin Pilot Exalto 96V tires, Cleaned MAF, Cleaned Throttle Body, Cleaned EGR, Steering Rack Boots, Upper Links, Tokiko Blues, Boots and Bump Stops, Replaced Various Bushings, Mobile 1 Oil and Filter, BG-44K, Synthetic Fluid in Diff.

Pending- Alignment, Transmission Cooler

1994 Black/Black Q45 150,500 miles
1998 Beige/Beige QX4 164,000 miles
1995 Black/Black J30 (RIP)
1997 Beige/Beige QX4 (RIP)

SO THAT'S WHAT IT IS!

I've been looking for the "steering lower joint" in all the wrong places.
I've been looking from the underside FRONT of the engine.
You can only see it from the underside REAR (looking from behind the driver-side tire).

Once I KNOW what it looks like (from your photo), I can identify it on page ST-11 of the 1990 Q45 FSM (diagram SST800A) called the "steering column lower u-joint" also shown partly disassembled on page ST-15 (diagram SST511B).

Whew!

Do I understand you correctly in that you suggest I remove the UPPER bolt and not the LOWER bolt on the lower steering u-joint (see photo below)?

Are you sure the wheels and steering links all have to come off?
This is not mentioned in the FSM oil pan removal procedure on page EM-11.

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_lower_steering_u_joint.jpg (56465 bytes, downloaded 1447 times)

Now, on to your other thing.. Yes... It says "REMOVE SUSPENSION MEMBER" or something to that effect. Goto the section on ENGINE REMOVAL.. It has you remove all those things to drop the suspension member... If you go under there and look at all the stuff thats attached to the suspension member (crossmember) youll see what Im talking about!

You might be right.
Lucky the next soul who tries this because we will have found all the gotchas.

PLAN B:
There is one oilpan bolt which seems to require the removal of the "engine gusset" (which requires remmoval of the a/c compressor, which requires removal of the alternator, which I still can't get off the car) even after wiggling it and prying it for an hour).

So, from a wishful thinking standpoint, maybe we possibly might be able to remove the oilpan without removing the engine gusset. I didn't really want to remove the compressor anyway if I didn't have to (what do I do about the high pressure a/c hoses connecting to the compressor, for example).

After studying the situation from below with a flashlight, it seems that once the front engine crossmember has been removed, we may be able to access that one problematic bolt hidden by the engine gusset from the SIDE (where the crossmember was). In effect, we might be able to sidestep the engine gusset removal procedure altogether (which leaves the alternator right where it is, practically glued to the engine block).

On the suggestion of patching the oil pan, we considered that in the very beginning but ditched that idea for reliability reasons. Upon close inspection, I find multiple holes and dents and gouges (see photo below), so, I think replacement is a wise decision.

If I start plan B, I can begin removing the crossmember as soon as I disconnect the steering (after marking the joints). I'm going to study the crossmember and see where the bolts lie. Any suggestions which ones to start with?

Attachment: nico_q45_oilpan_multiple_holes.jpg (104006 bytes, downloaded 1124 times)