Quote, originally posted by tmorgan4 »

Even though you'll be hacking up the manifolds it might be easier to start with a set off a JDM imported engine since they don't have the bulky pre-cats all the US engines do.

I know what you mean with the precats (nothing a recipricating (sawzall) saw couldn't take care of) but most of that section got cut off. I think this technique will be applicable to both USDM and JDM manis though - so if someone is fortunate enough to have JDM manis to start off with it'll still work. I went ahead and hacked up the LH side and it looks pretty good as a starting point.

I sent craigztoyz an e-mail with some measurements I took so I can understand the clearances we have since his engine is already in the car. I will post some pictures with measurements as soon as the batteries on the camera are charged up - I forgot to turn it off when I was downloading the last pictures .

BTW, my intention is to completely document this build, snags and all, with the workarounds/alternatives we all come up with, so in the future someone can refer back to this and see everything that's involved from start to finish. The G35 twin-turbo build is the only thread I had seen that comes close; I believe collectively we can really add a lot of value with such documentation, so in the future someone wanting to undertake something like this can trully understand why some design decisions were made.

I'll post the mani modification with pictures of the LH mani shortly.

Thanks,
Nick.

I think craigztoyz will be looking at turboing his at some point (we're actually about 150 miles away from each other) and he's helping me with some of the fab work. So if he does something different hopefully that can be documented as well - as an alternative to what I (we) are working on with mine.

Thanks,
Nick.

Here's the pics:

Exhaust Manifold Side View

Another view - the Cylinder 1 runner was cut for clearance and will need to be "clocked" to 12 o clock. Where the log bends in near the cut will need to be "clocked" to 11 o clock. This will position the pipe at the bottom front of the valvecover - I'm also thinking of doing a downpipe on the other side of the manifold and mounting a Tial 60mm wastegate there instead of the traditional "Y" pipe; does anyone see any issues with this? It sure would siplify the plumbing.

3 1/2 inches manifold clearance from the middle valve cover bolt. With heat and appropriate persuation this can be brought in another inch and only require 2 1/2 inches of clearance.

Plenty of space underneath the manifold to run 3" exhaust if the wastegate has to be up front in a traditional Y arrangement.

That's all I've got - if anyone has any thoughts or ideas as always they're greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Nick.

Modified by npez at 8:48 PM 5/15/2008

Quote, originally posted by tmorgan4 »

I ended up heat wrapping mine. Is this a bad idea on a turbo manifold due to heat?

I think I read somewhere that containing the heat in the exhaust manifold actually has a positive effect on a moderate to high A/R turbo's performance. I don't remember the specific thermodynamic principle but it has to do with hot air having more volume than cooler air. This is why STS who makes rear-mount turbos has some design parameters on their turbo selection that takes the temperature drop into account. So wrapping your header should keep the heat in and help with both underhood temps as well as the turbo's performance. I'm not an expert on this though, so if someone has more knowledge on the matter they can elaborate further.

Thanks,
Nick.

Oh Yeah I plan on adding boost.

After all the breakin, and breaking of ?? time will tell.

Nick, I will post pics in a min. Hope to give more insight as to space.

Nick, as we spoke on phone and I measured, yeah, I think that will clear quite well. I like the pics of how you cut it. Wife n girl must love the Sawzall n its delicate sounds.
I had tried to flip them over before but due to ubstruction, dropped it. Glad to see you have made it work. Best spot is going to be in front of radiator, with i/c on outside, or viceversa, turbos out though may be too much heat in the space in front of tires, and melt the bumper n such.
So much for stage 1. or plan a, I mean. I can't wait to weld in that a/c garage. I got a lot of pics to come, and oh yeah.

check out this pic. this is with the motor in the car, intake on, and everything except piping from the tb. the hood comes within an inch all around, take out 1/2 of hood support, and bulge it a bit. Next one, I am dropping the rack an inch or so, and using different endlinks to make it up.
But this is almost under the hood, A heck of a lot more then I thought it would.

OH yeah, sorry if they came out sideways, I just cut and paste after rotating, and resaved, to hope they come out striaght. if not. sorry about the neck, or just click, save, and view. I have every photo I have seen on here that was worth a crap, saved on my laptop, all 10 quagillion.

Quote, originally posted by craigztoyz »

Nick, as we spoke on phone and I measured, yeah, I think that will clear quite well. I like the pics of how you cut it. Wife n girl must love the Sawzall n its delicate sounds. I had tried to flip them over before but due to ubstruction, dropped it. Glad to see you have made it work. Best spot is going to be in front of radiator, with i/c on outside, or viceversa, turbos out though may be too much heat in the space in front of tires, and melt the bumper n such.

Quote, originally posted by craigztoyz »

So much for stage 1. or plan a, I mean.

The beauty about redoing the header is I'm going to add flanges in the appropriate locations to have removable downpipes with wastegates and another set that's straight through. If done right I should be able to set the car up to run normally aspirated to start with and then add the rest of the plumbing for the turbos and swap the downpipes with the wastegates on them. I also researched it a bit more and 38mm wastegates should do the job 60mm would be overkill.

Quote, originally posted by craigztoyz »

I can't wait to weld in that a/c garage. I got a lot of pics to come, and oh yeah. check out this pic. this is with the motor in the car, intake on, and everything except piping from the tb. the hood comes within an inch all around, take out 1/2 of hood support, and bulge it a bit. Next one, I am dropping the rack an inch or so, and using different endlinks to make it up. But this is almost under the hood, A heck of a lot more then I thought it would.

That's awesome. I will probably take the hood to a customizer and have a bugle added to it and then have the hood repainted. Similar to the so called "power bulge" on the M3 - it'll look stockish this way like the bulge was always there. It's fantastic that you got the motor sitting as low as you did. Great job! I can't wait to get mine in there.

Thanks,
Nick.

Around the fender wells is an option with twins because the tubing will smaller 2" max will be fine for twins. The STS Vette kit goes around a similar route.

If you can do front mounts that's probably what I'd do. Although it could end up being as much work, or more, as the rears tho with all of the modifying you must do. I'd like to see a complete photo of the bottom of your 300z. Curious what plumbing routes are available. There is an old thread on NICO of a guy that did a rear mount on an NA 300Z. The workmanship was poor but he made it work. Not sure how it held up.

Front mount is starting to look better now that motor is in.

PS, the stock VH is a monster so far. I can't open it up all the way due to some running issues but this ***** hauls ****ing ***!

Thank you for the feedback and information.

Quote, originally posted by T45 »

I was looking at this more today. I think there is sufficient room for front mount turbos but I think the stock mani's are just too wide once filpped over to clear the frame. There is about 2" and I think piping can be routed there but there are some wires, ps lines, ac lines etc that will have to be moved. A lot of work but it's possible.

Quick question. When you say front mount are you referring to behind the headlights or where the airbox used to be like I was saying? As far as the manis I think your engine may be sitting a little lower than craigztoys' and where mine will end up. The reason I say this is that I had craigztoys measure from where the "log" is to where it hits horizontally to the engine bay (going towards the fenders) and he stated that the manis are above the frame rails with about 3-1/2 inches of clearance. Now I plan on pulling the "log" inwards toward the valvecover by about an inch so in theory this will change the radiuses of each runner and provide for 3/4-1" clearance from the header to the strut tower (it actually hits where the hole is on the support for the strut tower to the frame rail). I guess we'll have to see in about a week or so when craigztoyz come over so we can stab my engine in. When I have something definitive I will report back - with pics of course:)

Quote, originally posted by T45 »

PS, the stock VH is a monster so far. I can't open it up all the way due to some running issues but this ***** hauls ****ing ***!

That's what I love to hear! I know the engine has monster torque and with the aid of some extra air and fuel it will be a real terror on the road

Thanks again for your feedback and I'll let you know what I find out as well.

Nick.

Modified by npez at 12:18 AM 5/17/2008

Modified by npez at 12:20 AM 5/17/2008

Yes we've been busy. I am over at my in-laws (out of town) at the moment, but when I get back home I can take a complete picture of the bottom of the car for you and post it here. You'll see that with a rear mount setup there would be plubling protruding all over the bottom of the car. My Z also has an Eibach Pro/Tokico suspension so the car also sits 3/4 inch lower than stock.

Let me ask you out of curiosity, I have located a couple of brand new T3/T4 hybrid turbos 57 trim with a stage 3 wheel for a pretty good price. Do you think something like this would work pretty well to get this thing kick-started? Do you have any concerns with this type of setup? I'm trying to accelerate the time between phase 1 completion and phase 2a (7-8 psi of boost). At the end of the day when the motor is "built" I may go ahead and get the GT3071Rs (I misspoke when I said 3076s earlier) if the T3/T4s don't perform as I'd like them to, and go from there.

I'm going to go visit a friend who has a muffler shop with capabilities for stainless steel mandrel bends to inquire about fabricating the plubling to and from the turbo compressor side. I may have him do the mani completion versus my other friend as I may get a better deal if he does everything - my other friend doesn't have a mandrel bender.

I want to have all this completed before craigztoyz comes down in a week or so for us to put the engine in. I plan to have the muffler shop make 2 sets of pipes. One that will go to a flange to be installed on the header which will do a 90-180* bend (depending on flange location) and tie in to the factory exhaust (so I can run the car NA). The second set (which will be done after the engine is in the car and I can drive it over there) will be pipes that will mount to the same flange and feed the front mount turbos when I'm ready to go there.

I should have a good update early next week when I finish the harness (I'll post pics of the process) and have the opportunity to talk to the muffler shop. I then go on a mini 3 day vacation with the family and will hit it hard again over the Memorial day weekend here where I will re-assemble the transmission with the modified bell housing, install the mazworx adapter, my RPS flywheel, and clutch and install the modified harness back in the car.

Thanks again for your feedback.

Nick.

Send me your address so I can get you some injectors!!!

WOW, I can't wait. How does it feel? Stupid amount of torque supply? I am hoping for burnouts @50mph.

Yeah, space is really tight, having the motor in, and in the exact same spot as Nick's will be, as I am the one making his mounts, pickup and pan, I can see how he is giong to do it, and pretty darn sure that he will make it fit, as for the electronics, yeah, there is a heat issue up high, and like I have been talking with Nick alot about, the space in front is very limited with a 4core radiator, and the ability to add a fan pulling is hard, a pusher is easier, but with the turbo's up there, HOT.

Nick, What's the size #'s on the Trubo.
When you come down after seeing Shamu, and get to see it in the car, it will make a big difference on your mental image. I forget right this second the exact spots we measured from on the phone that night, but yes with work they will fit, the fun is going to be the disipation of heat, hopefully coating will help majorly.
Either way the end of next weekend will be good.
Having the turbo's and mounting done, will be sweet, I can't wait to see. Screw a, b is more fun anyways, but sounds like there is sufficent power with just N/A.

Shane, I'm not abandoning the rearmount turbo idea. Nick, well his is easier this way, as his was already a turbo car. Mine being n/a might be easier to do rear, as the exhaust fits with ease, and I will somehow make a 3" pipe, ovaled, and hugging the car, fit. His piping is different, and would have to have pipe made anyways. Either way, the car is going to be even sweeter then it already is. Craig

Quote, originally posted by T45 »

I was looking at this more today. I think there is sufficient room for front mount turbos but I think the stock mani's are just too wide once filpped over to clear the frame. There is about 2" and I think piping can be routed there but there are some wires, ps lines, ac lines etc that will have to be moved. A lot of work but it's possible. PS, the stock VH is a monster so far. I can't open it up all the way due to some running issues but this ***** hauls ****ing ***!

Sounds sweet, how much power is there? at 50, will it spin the tires if you try?
I forget right now where we measured from that night, I just choose spots, to and from, to measure clearance, and it'll fit with work, and since he already cut off most of 1n2 pipes, can bend in 3-6 to get the angle closer to the eng, and away from the strut. Heat disipation is still giong to be the big issue.
Nick when you get to come down in a few days, and see it, you'll see how close everything is, and it almost seems like Nisssan intended it to go in here. Next weekend after the family goes back home, will be good though.
Shane, I still hope to go rear tt, as mine is n/a it would be easier to convert. His being turbo already, it is easier to find a way to keep it up there, as opposed to making new pipe up front, and then..... I just wonder if I will really need the extra power, or if modding the Vh45 will be enough. I mean power that you can apply, and actually use for things other then just to make the rubber go away really fast.

Thanks for the feedback.

Quote, originally posted by qsiguy »

Are you asking about those T3/T4 turbos for a front mount option or rear? From what I'm reading you've pretty much shot down the rear mount option. I'd have to look at the compressor map for the turbo you are looking at to give you a decent answer. If you want my educated guess I'd say it would work and give you some room to grow in a twin configuration. I'd also want to know what the specs were on the turbine side. That's what will determine the spool up time or lag you encounter. It's more critical in a rear mount setup I believe but you should definitely know the numbers.

Here's the only info I have on the turbo.

COMPRESSOR SPECS:
flow: 53 lbs/min 678cfm
.60 A/R HOUSING
57 TRIM WHEEL

TURBINE SPECS:
.63 A/R HOUSING
STAGE 3 WHEEL

I don't know what stage 3 wheel means in this context as I'm used to looking at inducer/exducer sizes in mm - I've sent an inquiry to get that info as well as a compressor map - I'll post it as soon as I have it. When I looked around I found people are using this on the KA24s. I was thinking of using these as front mount twins.....

I hope this helps....

Thanks,
Nick.

That looks awesome. You did a real nice job on the plumbing for the FMIC! I look forward to seeing the pics for the exhaust mani you made.

Thanks for your feedaback!

Nick.

Modified by npez at 1:27 PM 5/17/2008

I posted the turbo #s that I have. I have asked for additional info and will post once I have it.

I think the logistics will work out well with the trip. I mentioned it to my wife (taking the long way home) and it may be doable. I'll let you know. The measurements we took involved the middle of the motor clearance to the strut tower, the crank to front radiator support, as well as front of engine to upper radiator support. I marked everything up with a sharpie. Yes I agree it's tight - but workable!

Thanks,
Nick.

Those turbo's look pretty good for a front mount in my opinion. If people are using it for the KA's then I'm sure it will work. What HP are they making with them? Double that and you have your approx. number. The turbine A/R is good for a front mount but for a rear it would need to be smaller. The turbine a/r on mine is .68 and the STS turbo's all have very small a/r's on the turbine. This is why the STS kits have very little lag. I looked at the corvette twin turbo kit at the SEMA show last year and they use two tiny turbo's. I have a photo of it somewhere they had two turbo's with turbine a/r's in the 30's I think.

EDIT:
Found the photos, they have .36 a/r.

The NA radiator isnt big enough, temps above 200 except when idling. I hope to have a bigger radiator this week and fix the oil issue and along with tmo's injectors have a better running engine. I am going to go get an adapter tonight so I can run the consult to see if I have any injectors stuck or brokeded.

I hope to not have a hole in hood. I used a front sump, so I may be a lil lower, on overall height. Either way, I had hood on and was within an inch all around, so Plan to take out hood support and then bulge it as needbe.

hope the oil issue gets worked out. I am planning on using an impact to make sure crankpulley is tight as hell.

DON'T DO IT. 270 ft-lbs...torque it. Did you notice that the sprocket on the crank for the oil pump is sandwiched between the two timing chain sprockets that are keyed? It's meant to slip when the oil is cold and the engine gets revved. Over torquing is just as bad as under torquing in this case.

I do not think though that the oil chain's sprocket can ever turn at a slower speed then crank.

Hope for info on that one. How do you recommend tightening crank?

Remove the starter, lock the ring gear with a big screwdriver and torque away Or convert to manual, stick it in 5th with the hand brake on

Thanks a bunch for the help. Those vette turbos look sweet BTW - they are tiny! The workmanship of the overall package is awesome.

Thanks again for the feedback.

Thanks,
Nick.

Quote, originally posted by craigztoyz »

Nick, as we spoke on phone and I measured, yeah, I think that will clear quite well. I like the pics of how you cut it. Wife n girl must love the Sawzall n its delicate sounds. I had tried to flip them over before but due to ubstruction, dropped it. Glad to see you have made it work. Best spot is going to be in front of radiator, with i/c on outside, or viceversa, turbos out though may be too much heat in the space in front of tires, and melt the bumper n such.

Quote, originally posted by craigztoyz »

So much for stage 1. or plan a, I mean.

The beauty about redoing the header is I'm going to add flanges in the appropriate locations to have removable downpipes with wastegates and another set that's straight through. If done right I should be able to set the car up to run normally aspirated to start with and then add the rest of the plumbing for the turbos and swap the downpipes with the wastegates on them. I also researched it a bit more and 38mm wastegates should do the job 60mm would be overkill.

Quote, originally posted by craigztoyz »

I can't wait to weld in that a/c garage. I got a lot of pics to come, and oh yeah. check out this pic. this is with the motor in the car, intake on, and everything except piping from the tb. the hood comes within an inch all around, take out 1/2 of hood support, and bulge it a bit. Next one, I am dropping the rack an inch or so, and using different endlinks to make it up. But this is almost under the hood, A heck of a lot more then I thought it would.

That's awesome. I will probably take the hood to a customizer and have a bugle added to it and then have the hood repainted. Similar to the so called "power bulge" on the M3 - it'll look stockish this way like the bulge was always there. It's fantastic that you got the motor sitting as low as you did. Great job! I can't wait to get mine in there.

Thanks,
Nick.

Long story short, he can get the manifolds put together (Craig BTW the pipes cannot be heated and bent) for between $300-400USD (sounded reasonable anyone have any thoughts on the price?). This includes:
- Shortening the runners to move the "log" in by an inch (this way it'll only require 2-1/2 inches clearance)
- Reconnect all the runners and the runner I cut back onto the log
- Extend the log with mandrel bends to a flange to be located in the front part of the log extension in front of the valve cover (the idea being that there will be a pipe that connects to that flange and goes to each turbo) hence making easier to take the manifolds off as it'll be a 2 piece design.
- Use of 14 gauge 304 stainless.
- He also gave me a price to coat (Jet hot) the headers inside and outside for an additional $350 - anyone have any experience with coating pricing - wasn't sure if this was a good deal or not?

He said that the manifold is pretty stout - 14 gauge stainless and that the welds look pretty good for robotic MIG. He agreed to tack the manifold together so I can check it for fitment and if everything looks good to me he'll permanently TIG the rest.

I'm going to try to get the RH heatshields, etc. off and cut the RH manifold this evening, so I can hopefully drop it off tomorrow afternoon. He said it'll be about a 1 week turn-around.

I'll cross my fingers I can get everything done in time before I go on our mini vacation.

Nick.