Project Road Terror Z

[npez]

having tuned my car on stock ecu and having to use 3 different programs at once to do live tuning and tracing nistune is a great deal.only gripe is that it seems to crash on my vista machine...

Thanks for the feedback Carl. Luckily I'll be running it on XP.... not sold on Vista just yet....

Nick.

[npez]

ok - I'm talking about the car so get your minds out of the gutter

I decided to sit the engine in the car today as craigztoyz has been held up with some other stuff. I bolted the transmission and trans-mount, lowered the sway bar, centered the motor to the engine bay and leveled it. Looking at it, it would seem to me that offset motor mounts may be more practical than modifying the crossmember. The pedestal only seems to be about an inch off.

Quick question - should the motor be completely level or is it customary to have a few degrees tilt toward the sump?

ok - back to the space issue. Looking at the space it is unbelievably tight. Just a quick glance at the top, it would appear that high-mount turbos behind the headlight are not do-able (at least with my turbos, and if I want the hood to close). Low mount in the rear by the downpipes may have been an option, but the steering rack precludes this location as well. So all that's left is to mount them in the nose (where the airbox typically is), or with some mods mount then where the OEM intercoolers were and go with an FMIC.

For the nose, I think I can have a bracket made to bolt the turbos to the lower member in front of the radiator and condender. Then do a Doolz like setup for the intake and mount 1 real MAF and a dummy MAF. For exhaust plumbing I can run the pipes on the sides of the radiator (there's about 3-1/2" on each side (I only need 2" for the inlet side and 2.5" for the exhaust side of the turbo) where the intake plumbing ran before and use flex pipe to allow the motor to move (torque) independently of the turbos that will be fixed to the body of the car. If I clock the compressor side of the turbo I should be able to run the plubling to the OEM intercoolers and have the plumbing utilize existing intercooler plumbing openings.

The only thing that concerns me is *heat*. Do you think if I use a turbo beenie bag or coat the turbine side of the turbo to drop the temps by 50%, that the heat will be manageable? Should I have concerns over cooling system efficiency or A/C efficiency for that mater (the condenser is right there as well)? Being there will be air coming in through the "mouth" on the bumper, will this have any noticable effect on cooling the turbos and/or helping with heat dissipation?

I know drag cars have this kind of setup, but my car will be a GT street car - while they only worry about a 1/4 mile, I need to worry about a 100 mile drive if I choose to go for a long drive. Does anyone have any experience and/or knowledge with this type of setup?

Also one last question - I don't have a Q45 MAF - I do have my TT MAF; does anyone see any challenges to using the TT MAF instead of the q45 one? I know it's about 72mm (actually about 3" across) compared to the 90mm Q45 one, but I'll be using it initially on its own, but shortly after I make sure my engine is running, it will be part of a doolz type setup. My understanding is that the TT MAF is good to about 550WHP. I believe with some minor rewiring the electronics should be pretty similar.

Your feedback as always is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,Nick.

P.S. I'll take some pictures tomorrow and post them so you can get a visual of what I see.
Modified by npez at 11:55 PM 6/1/2008

[T45]

Can't help with the turbo questions but as for mounting the engine I went based off of what the trans allowed me to do. I bolted up the trans and mount and then adjusted the engine height and side to side. Only about 1/4" above the xmember/rack at the oil pan and 1/4 on either side at the alternator and oil filter housing. Changing the filter is a pita but it's easier with a wrench.

[Carl H]

if you're gonna be running nistune then just calibrate it for the z maf...very simple.

[npez]

Can't help with the turbo questions but as for mounting the engine I went based off of what the trans allowed me to do. I bolted up the trans and mount and then adjusted the engine height and side to side. Only about 1/4" above the xmember/rack at the oil pan and 1/4 on either side at the alternator and oil filter housing. Changing the filter is a pita but it's easier with a wrench.

Hi Ben,

Thanks for the feedback. That's essentially what I did (mounted the trans/transmount and that helped with front/back alignment; for side/side I centered it to the engine bay. As I'm not working with the oil pan on (craigztoyz has mine; I've added a wood board across the cross-member to sit the engine) so I am doing measurements from the oilpan flange.

The level I mentioned is because I had read somewhere that some engines have a few degree angle towards the sump (so on a stock VH it would tilt just a few degrees from back->front). But I'm not sure if that applies to the VH motor.

I agree with the oil filter - there's only about 3/8" on that side and another 3/8" on the alternator side. Also the A/C fitting receptacles on the compressor barely clear the front crossmember, but I think that'll be ok as I will be having custom lines made.

Thanks again.

Nick.

[npez]

if you're gonna be running nistune then just calibrate it for the z maf...very simple.

Carl,

Thanks for the feedback. Yes I saw the option in the Nistune manual - IIRC it seems it's as simple as a drop box (I think they had the Mustang Cobra one in the example) and the rest is done by the program - that's pretty fantastic.....

Thanks,Nick.

[SuperHatch]

Having used multiple tuning packages on many different cars, DSMs, Evos, Suby's, etc... the convenience of realtime tuning, maptracing, and editing all within one package with Nistune makes it a "no-brainer" decision for me. There is a point at which the convenience makes the money worth it, and from everything I've read, Nistune goes above and beyond that.

[npez]

Having used multiple tuning packages on many different cars, DSMs, Evos, Suby's, etc... the convenience of realtime tuning, maptracing, and editing all within one package with Nistune makes it a "no-brainer" decision for me. There is a point at which the convenience makes the money worth it, and from everything I've read, Nistune goes above and beyond that.

Steve,

Thanks for the feedback - it (as well as Ostrich2) has become a "father's day suggestion" to my wife.....

Thanks again,Nick.

[npez]

I know it's not a Z but the sidemount setup I was thinking about would be similar to this. From a scale perspective that's about how much room I'd be looking at with my smaller turbos in a smaller space.

This setup would require the removal (or relocation) of the carbon canister - are there any challenges with doing this (removal versus relocation) from an emissions perspective? Also if the turbos are higher than the drains on the pan, I shouldn't need a scavenging pump - is my thinking correct?

Please advise and thanks.

Nick.

P.S. Also notice the plastic under-fender liners on the exhaust side of the turbo - they're not melted P.S.S. And for some of you that may notice this the car is twin-turbo *and* supercharged (check out the pulley on top). It's dyno'd at 1300rwtq and over 1200rwhp! This is something new turbonetics and a tuner are working on.


Modified by npez at 7:15 PM 6/2/2008

[Carl H]

depending on how low the drains are will dictate the need for a scavaging pump or not, you ideally need to have the drains a good ways up from the pan for a gravity drain to work so if its only an inch or two above the pan then you'll still need a pump to ensure that the drain indeed gets to the pan and out of the turbos...else you'll get nasty oil backup.sidemounting the turbos will help open up some space in the engine bay.

[npez]

depending on how low the drains are will dictate the need for a scavaging pump or not, you ideally need to have the drains a good ways up from the pan for a gravity drain to work so if its only an inch or two above the pan then you'll still need a pump to ensure that the drain indeed gets to the pan and out of the turbos...else you'll get nasty oil backup.sidemounting the turbos will help open up some space in the engine bay.

Thanks Carl. I don't believe the turbos will be high enough for gravity to do its thing. So I probably will need a scavenging pump.

I'll post some pics here now and you can see the height.

Thanks again,Nick.

[npez]

ok - here are some pics I took.

Top View - Engine in the car (yes that is a seatbelt my engine leveler chains weren't long enough)

Top View RH Side Clearances

Top View LH Side Clearances

Top View Engine Front RH

Top View Engine Front Middle and LH

Underside RH Side

Underside A/C Compressor Closeup - the lines will be very close to the front of the crossmember

Underside LH Side (P/S Pump not installed)

Underside - Trans-end LH Side

Underside - Trans-end RH Side

Very Temporary Test of sidemount turbo position

Temporary Test of sidemount turbo position - the tab on the 8 o clock it where the plastic under fender liner fastens - the turbo will clear.

Another view - the air inlet of the turbo is flush with the bumper support flange. I think a 90 degree elbow will allow the air filer to sit behind the bumper in the area where the oem airbox used to be.

That's all I've got. If anyone has an answer on the carbon canister removal, this will help in deciding if this location will be a go or no-go. Any suggestions you may have are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,Nick.

[mikeLce2722]

if only if only i had money=)

[T45]

What's a carbon canister? Maybe that's what went to the fuel sized line that's plugged up on my drivers side wheel well? Hmmm, could be...

Thanks for the pics of the a/c! I was wondering if it would fit and now I'm relieved that once I get my cooling issues solved I can kick back on long highway drives in some nice cold frothy air!!!

[Chrispy300]

Going to have room for air filters?



I'd be quite worried having my turbo's that close to the ground with exposed compressor wheels like that

But love the idea, it's got me thinking now...

Do you think that would be room for a decent size single turbo next to the block anywhere?

Similar to this maybe?





This is what I am looking at doing to my VH once it's in and working. I'll probably be flicking the aircon and possibly the PS (maybe go a SW20 electric pump, not sure yet and my arms are a bit skinny ) so I will have a bit of room to spare.

[SuperHatch]

Looks great Nick, it's nice to see some good pictures of clearances that we have to work with in a swap like this. I like the sidemount turbo idea, but you will most definately need a scavenging pump, even if you have a 2" downgrade. That distance will necessitate it.

Maybe you could mark the crossmember where the AC lines will be an issue and notch it a bit there too, just for peace of mind. Also, where do you get custom AC lines made? It's something I've never done before, but if I put my other VH in my Z, I'd need to do the same thing.

[npez]

What's a carbon canister? Maybe that's what went to the fuel sized line that's plugged up on my drivers side wheel well? Hmmm, could be...

It's the little plastic barrel looking thing on the drivers wheel well in the front - it's part of the EVAP system for emissions. The one in the rear of the fender is the vaccuum tank. The reason I was asking about the emissions is that I didn't know how sophisticated a check the ECM makes for its presense. I know OBDII vehicles really complain and throw a code and light the MIL. I can pass without it, I cannot pass with the MIL light on.

Thanks for the pics of the a/c! I was wondering if it would fit and now I'm relieved that once I get my cooling issues solved I can kick back on long highway drives in some nice cold frothy air!!!

You're welcome.

Thanks,Nick.

[npez]

Going to have room for air filters? I'd be quite worried having my turbo's that close to the ground with exposed compressor wheels like that

I think I can clear air filters with a 90 degree elbow and plumbing them to the airbox section of the car in the nose. As far as the exposed compresor wheels - that's what the plastic bag is for - no seriously the bumper and the splash shields underneath the car and fender will enclose the turbos where the intercoolers were. There may be some minor moisture coming in from the intercooler opening on the bumper, but I can deal with that.

But love the idea, it's got me thinking now...

Do you think that would be room for a decent size single turbo next to the block anywhere?

This is what I am looking at doing to my VH once it's in and working. I'll probably be flicking the aircon and possibly the PS (maybe go a SW20 electric pump, not sure yet and my arms are a bit skinny ) so I will have a bit of room to spare.

Not sure if you can do something that big on the sides - there's room but not that much room for turbos of this size. You may be able to fit some small twins. Plus on the layout in the pictures you showed you would have to sacrifice some accessories or go electric with them as you mentioned. If you could relocate the P/S and A/C to somewhere else or eliminate them altogether, it would open up the bottom part of the motor to do stuff. I just didn't want to go that route as electric A/C necessitates R134a and I would have to re-engineer my A/C to have the 134a work properly (larger condenser, mods in the orifice tube in the EVAP core, etc.) - I'm planing to keep mine R12. As far as P/S it's wait and see if the factory one will clear, otherwise I'll be addressing alternatives.

Thanks,Nick.

[npez]

Looks great Nick, it's nice to see some good pictures of clearances that we have to work with in a swap like this. I like the sidemount turbo idea, but you will most definately need a scavenging pump, even if you have a 2" downgrade. That distance will necessitate it.

Maybe you could mark the crossmember where the AC lines will be an issue and notch it a bit there too, just for peace of mind. Also, where do you get custom AC lines made? It's something I've never done before, but if I put my other VH in my Z, I'd need to do the same thing.

Steve,

Thanks for the feedback and you're welcome. I will start looking for a scavenging pump at Summit/Jegs. I think I may notch the rail a bit as you recommended as the A/C hose fittings are a little larger than the mounting flange on the A/C compressor and they will most likely hit.

As far as A/C lines it took me a long time of calling different A/C shops to find one that does hose rebuilds *and* hard lines. The particular one I found in Houston does it for hot rods and things. The guy told me for around $400 he can fabricate all new hardlines and hoses. I will need to bring him the car and everything will be custom made to fit properly. I also found another place that they can make the hoses and hardlines if I bring them a template. Regardless of the option I choose, I may have the guy build the lines and then I can take a picture with measurements and post them for others to have something to work off of.

Thanks,Nick.

[SuperHatch]

Well when the time comes to have those lines made let me know, I may throw you a couple bucks and have him make two sets... then you can send a set up to Jersey for me.

[SuperHatch]

It's the little plastic barrel looking thing on the drivers wheel well in the front - it's part of the EVAP system for emissions. The one in the rear of the fender is the vaccuum tank. The reason I was asking about the emissions is that I didn't know how sophisticated a check the ECM makes for its presense. I know OBDII vehicles really complain and throw a code and light the MIL. I can pass without it, I cannot pass with the MIL light on.

Thanks,Nick.

Nick,

From what I've read here: http://s95014253.onlinehome.us/63104/6901.html

You should be fine without the CC.

[npez]

Well when the time comes to have those lines made let me know, I may throw you a couple bucks and have him make two sets... then you can send a set up to Jersey for me.

Sounds like a plan. Keep an eye out on the post, and I'll post when I'm getting ready to do the lines. I'm hoping to have phase 1/2a completed no later than the end of August so being the A/C lines will be towards the end of the build I think Augist will probably be the month I go to get it done. Also he will need the special ends on the hoses to make the new hoses, so you will need to send those to me so I can provide them to him.

We'll see - but I don't have a problem helping out.....

Thanks again,Nick.

P.S. Do you happen to have a spare 94 water pump pulley? I've been looking around and even sent an e-mail to a person that had helped out another member, but I haven't been able to find anything. The pulley on mine is from a 93 and the offsets are off due to the water pump being shorter on the pre-94s

[npez]

Nick,

From what I've read here: http://s95014253.onlinehome.us/63104/6901.html

You should be fine without the CC.

Steve,

Great read! Thanks for locating this. So I'm assuming the 93 ECM shouldn't throw any fits with the CC missing?

Please advise and thanks again.

Nick.

[qsiguy]

We have hydraulic lines made all the time. There are many companies that do industrial hoses. Around here we have Granberry Hose and Pirtek that I have used. It doesn't need to be an automotive or even and A/C place. As long as they have right hose type and fitting type.

Here are links to a couple I've used.http://www.pirtekusa.com/http://www.granberry.com/

FYI

[SuperHatch]

Sounds like a plan. Keep an eye out on the post, and I'll post when I'm getting ready to do the lines. I'm hoping to have phase 1/2a completed no later than the end of August so being the A/C lines will be towards the end of the build I think Augist will probably be the month I go to get it done. Also he will need the special ends on the hoses to make the new hoses, so you will need to send those to me so I can provide them to him.

We'll see - but I don't have a problem helping out.....

Thanks again,Nick.

Thanks Nick, I'll be keeping my eye out for it...

P.S. Do you happen to have a spare 94 water pump pulley? I've been looking around and even sent an e-mail to a person that had helped out another member, but I haven't been able to find anything. The pulley on mine is from a 93 and the offsets are off due to the water pump being shorter on the pre-94s

I saw your post and unfortunately I only have 1 pulley, no spare. I'm not using it right now, but there's a good chance I'll need it someday and I don't want to part with it... sorry.

[SuperHatch]

Steve,

Great read! Thanks for locating this. So I'm assuming the 93 ECM shouldn't throw any fits with the CC missing?

Please advise and thanks again.

Nick.

Correct, your 93 should have no issues. Same goes for your 94 VH ECU...

[SuperHatch]

We have hydraulic lines made all the time. There are many companies that do industrial hoses. Around here we have Granberry Hose and Pirtek that I have used. It doesn't need to be an automotive or even and A/C place. As long as they have right hose type and fitting type.

Here are links to a couple I've used.http://www.pirtekusa.com/http://www.granberry.com/

FYI

Thanks for the heads up! It's good to know there are other options out there...

[npez]

We have hydraulic lines made all the time. There are many companies that do industrial hoses. Around here we have Granberry Hose and Pirtek that I have used. It doesn't need to be an automotive or even and A/C place. As long as they have right hose type and fitting type.

Here are links to a couple I've used.http://www.pirtekusa.com/http://www.granberry.com/

FYI

Shane,

That's what I looked at originally (hydraulic shops), and the one here that I found that would do it (very small job for most) will do the p/s hardlines and hoses for me, but weren't equiped to do the a/c lines; something to do with the ends they use for industrial hydraulics (tube farell) versus my ends for the A/C.

That's the problem I kept running into until a hydraulics guy (that couldn't do the job) filled me in on the differences and recommended a place that would. Thanks for providing these references though it's always good to have them.

Thanks,Nick.

[npez]

Hello everyone,

I'm looking at this adapter from Z1 motorsports (http://www.z1motorsports.com/p...=2822)for the thermo switch (I'm trying to keep the 2 stage aspect of this going and keep it as clean as possible, by using my Z's fan/sub-fan relays). Does anyone know the pitch of the threads? 1/8" NPT (27) or 1/8" BSPT(28)? I'm trying to figure this out so they can ship me this with my 8 injectors/orings. Please advise.

Thanks,Nick.

[Carl H]

looks like you can get it in either or, just a matter of checking the option box.fwiw if you use any japanese device it will be bspt if pipe thread any american or chinese device will be npt.