Why so inefficient?

[PoorManQ45]

This was inspired by seeing the new Aveo with an 85hp engine.

Have you ever stopped to think about how much power we actually need in our daily commuter? This whole thing excludes special purpose vehicles.

The maximum speed you can legally go in this country is 80mph. What does it really take to cruise at that speed? 30~50hp on a small car? The Geo Metro had 52~55HP and topped out around 89mph. The combined MP was an EPA rated 41mpg, but with a little care while driving could go over 50mpg. Weight ~1700lbs.

Compare this to the new Aveo:
Top speed ~105mph
Horsepower ~85~108
MPG ~35(25~30 real world)
Weight ~2600lbs.

Seems to get pretty good gas mileage for the specs it has, right?(subjective)

Well, then lets throw another car into this mix:

2004 Volkswagon Jetta TDI:
Top Speed ~115mph
100hp/177tq
MPG ~40~50(real world)
Weight ~3100lbs

Now, something is wrong here. The Jetta weighs more, has more power, AND gets better gas mileage. I understand that this is a Diesel vs Gas engine situation, but come on.

Why have Americans rejected Diesels in their daily commuter? Currently, from my research, there seems to be only one widely popular Diesel, and that's still the Jetta. This excludes trucks.

What is it that people dislike about diesels so much? It's obviously not the efficiency of the platform.

I remember when you mentioned a diesel to people their first response was along the lines of, "Oh, those are really dirty and noisy!" I have a feeling that the current view on Diesels is about the same.

What can we do to change this view?

I think it would be really awesome to see a Full Frame diesel powered car come out. That would offer a ton of towing options for those that didn't want/need a truck.

Instead of going more efficient, we go with more power.

The 2010 Maxima has a 290HP 3.5l V6 in it and gets an EPA rated 19/26MPG.

Why do we really need that much power? Is it because the car weighs 3540lbs?

Or is it more likely that people think that they need more power then what they really do?

[Loki]

Maxima is on a higher level than a cheap, efficient DD IMO. And I think Americans have rejected diesel cars because of those obnoxious diesel trucks with smokestacks coming out the bed and billow smoke everywhere they go. People think of loud, disgusting huuuuge trucks when you say diesel. They don't think of nice, efficient German automotive.

[AppleBonker]

Diesel is dirty.

[PoorManQ45]

Diesel is dirty.

Is your mom's nickname Diesel?

[AppleBonker]

Not that I know of. Why, you interested?

[PoorManQ45]

Not that I know of. Why, you interested?

touche!

Anyways, back on topic.

Got anything to add?

[Dattebayo]

Currently, from my research, there seems to be only one widely popular Diesel, and that's still the Jetta. This excludes trucks.

The giant hole in your research is glaring.

You completely missed a whole car company! Mercedes has plenty of Diesel models that are popular here.

[wingFeather]

Diesel sucks. I drove a diesel for 5 years & hated every moment of it, especially long trips where there aren't any diesel stations when my tank was empty.

[PoorManQ45]

Currently, from my research, there seems to be only one widely popular Diesel, and that's still the Jetta. This excludes trucks.

The giant hole in your research is glaring.

You completely missed a whole car company! Mercedes has plenty of Diesel models that are popular here.

That is true. There is the GL, GL, R350, and E320. All under the Bluetec label.

The R320/350 and E320/350 are the only cars.

I'd be interested to see what percentage of their sales are attributed to the Diesel models.

Diesel sucks. I drove a diesel for 5 years & hated every moment of it, especially long trips where there aren't any diesel stations when my tank was empty.

Really? You must not have been on a freeway/interstate then...

[Dattebayo]

You're forgetting all the past models as well. Mercedes people tend to keep the old ones for a long time.

[PoorManQ45]

You're forgetting all the past models as well. Mercedes people tend to keep the old ones for a long time.

That's true, I do see a ton of 300Ds on the road!

[Dattebayo]

I tend to notice that it's only in the cities that Diesel is hard to find, like deep into the city...

Everywhere else I have gone, it's not that hard to find! So I don't know WTF chickenwing is talking about up there.

[Bubba1]

This was inspired by seeing the new Aveo with an 85hp engine.

Have you ever stopped to think about how much power we actually need in our daily commuter? This whole thing excludes special purpose vehicles.

The maximum speed you can legally go in this country is 80mph. What does it really take to cruise at that speed? 30~50hp on a small car? The Geo Metro had 52~55HP and topped out around 89mph. The combined MP was an EPA rated 41mpg, but with a little care while driving could go over 50mpg. Weight ~1700lbs.

Compare this to the new Aveo:
Top speed ~105mph
Horsepower ~85~108
MPG ~35(25~30 real world)
Weight ~2600lbs.

Seems to get pretty good gas mileage for the specs it has, right?(subjective)

Well, then lets throw another car into this mix:

2004 Volkswagon Jetta TDI:
Top Speed ~115mph
100hp/177tq
MPG ~40~50(real world)
Weight ~3100lbs

Now, something is wrong here. The Jetta weighs more, has more power, AND gets better gas mileage. I understand that this is a Diesel vs Gas engine situation, but come on.

Why have Americans rejected Diesels in their daily commuter? Currently, from my research, there seems to be only one widely popular Diesel, and that's still the Jetta. This excludes trucks.

What is it that people dislike about diesels so much? It's obviously not the efficiency of the platform.

I remember when you mentioned a diesel to people their first response was along the lines of, "Oh, those are really dirty and noisy!" I have a feeling that the current view on Diesels is about the same.

What can we do to change this view?

I think it would be really awesome to see a Full Frame diesel powered car come out. That would offer a ton of towing options for those that didn't want/need a truck.

Instead of going more efficient, we go with more power.

The 2010 Maxima has a 290HP 3.5l V6 in it and gets an EPA rated 19/26MPG.

Why do we really need that much power? Is it because the car weighs 3540lbs?

Or is it more likely that people think that they need more power then what they really do?

You want some reasons why diesel hasn't become big in the US?

1. Perception. The typical, uninformed, American consumer associates diesel with big slow heavy trucks. Yes, Audi has won Lemans several times with a diesel, but the PERCEPTION in this country remains that diesels are slow, and smokey.

2. Diesel engines cost more initially. Although diesels get better mileage than gas, you'd have to own the diesel longer for the gas mileage savings to offset the higher initial investment. Americans on average do not hold onto their cars long enough to do that.


3. Diesels take longer to start when they're cold, (glow plugs), even longer when the outside temp is low. We live in an impatient society, especially in the northeast.

4. Diesel fuel is less readily available as gasoline.(not every gas station carries it)

5. Taxes in many states make diesel fuel more expensive than gasoline, which negates some of the fuel economy advantage.

6. Many people take issue with the smell, smoke, and vibration. Newest generation diesels have reduced those issues, but there is still a lingering perception.


As far as the power question. the issue is not "need" but "want". Of course we don't need
much horsepower to get from point A to point B. Since the cost of gas in this country is cheap compared to other parts of the world, we Americans are clearly less concerned about fuel efficiency as compared to other aspects like performance, luxury, and styling.

The newest generation diesels are very impressive and should change some folk's opinions of diesel. I recently drove a new BMW 335D (diesel 3 series) and was very impressed. But I don't think it'll become anything more than a niche.

[Looneybomber]

Heh, 85hp 2011 Aveo = 35mpg.
305hp 2010 mustang = 31mpg.
350hp 1997 C5 vette = 28mpg.

Inefficient? Quadrupling the HP decreases gas mileage by 20%

What we need are cars that aren't grossly underpowered, enabling them to just loaf along.

[Jesda]

Every single gas station along a major highway or interstate has diesel. Those big truck stops every 50 miles have diesel.

Even if you wind up in the forest in Canada, logging trucks rely on diesel and there's places to get it.

[AZhitman]

I'll throw my 2c in here:

I owned a Golf TDI not too long ago. Know why I got rid of it? I HATED IT. Booooo-ring. Sure, there's a lot of torque But have you looked at the weight of a 2004 TDI? Retarded. Remember, everything in a diesel engine is heavier by design, and VW's are stout even in gas-powered form.

Here's another reason: Even though I got 40 mpg, diesel costs the same, if not more, than gasoline now. Where's the savings there? A 2004 Corolla would SMOKE my TDI in a pure cost-per-mile comparison. Wanna save gas? Buy a base Corolla and fill it with 87 octane from Sam's Club.

Let's see, what else... I bought the TDI when gas was approaching $4. I thought, OK, I'll save some $. BZZZZT. Wrong. Everything for that car costs more... want coolant? Buy it at the dealer for $16. Oil? Twice as expensive as that for my other cars.

Look at the initial cost of the TDI Golf vs the gas Golf. Why spend $3K more for the TDI? $3K will buy 1200 gallons of gasoline. At 25mpg, that's 30,000 miles of free fuel.

With all that said, I don't think diesel is the answer. I think small-displacement, all aluminum forced-induction engines, OR large-displacement, low-revving lightweight engines are far smarter.

ABOVE that, making cars LIGHTER is key. The attorneys and safety nincompoops have ruined that option for us.

My C5 gets 25mpg all day long in town, and 30+ on the open road. Why would I give that up for a car that gets 40mpg but is boring to drive, costs more per gallon to fuel up, and costs more to repair and maintain? Bleh.

[Jesda]

Should have gotten a Beetle. Put Slim Jims in the flower vase.

[AZhitman]

Nothing but real jerky for this guy... preferably elk.

[IBCoupe]

Here's a thought: maybe efficiency isn't what appeals to us about cars? Maybe what the average person needs to have isn't what the average person wants to have for a reason. It's suggested that people don't like taxes on the super-rich because they want to be super-rich themselves, one day.

So most people don't drive the Brickyard 500. Doesn't mean those people are satisfied with being unable to do so. I really think this is the wrong audience for your thoughts, as much merit as they have.

[SullivanRacing06]

Nothing but real jerky for this guy... preferably elk.

lol, eatin elk while driving your beetle? perfect

[Jesda]

Economy cars exist less for fuel efficiency reasons and more because they're cheap to buy new. Even in the 90s, a Cavalier automatic got 30mpg. A Buick Regal GS got... 30mpg. But the price for a Regal was as much as double.

[Kompresshun]

I don't care for the small fuel efficient cars because they can't haul people and the fuel mileage gain isn't enough for me to want to drive one. My I30 gets around 20mpg all day around town plus I only drive it to the office and back home, when I take it on trips it gets around 30mpg. My wifes old Chevy Aveo only got about 25mpg around town and it could barely get out of it's own way. I agree with what's said above, efficiency isn't appealing to me when it's comes in the form of a car that I can't sit comfortably in and it has no power at all...

Ford turbocharging a lot of their vehicles with smaller displacements is appealing to me though, I think the Mustang is flat out amazing the amount of fuel mileage it can achieve now. As Greg said above, smaller boosted displacements or larger lightweight displacements that run lower RPMs are the way to go.

[AZhitman]

Here's a thought: maybe efficiency isn't what appeals to us about cars? Maybe what the average person needs to have isn't what the average person wants to have for a reason.

I've always looked at it this way: If someone's in a position to worry THAT much about efficiency, then there's a real possibility that they might need to reconsider their need for vehicle ownership... take the bus, carpool, make different arrangements. Been there and done that.

Car ownership, much like home ownership, is a LUXURY and a privilege. Not guaranteed and not a God-given right.

If the difference between driving a Cobalt and driving a Corvette is working an extra 4 hours per week, I'm in. Always have been.

In fact, that USED TO BE "the American way"...

[wingFeather]

Really? You must not have been on a freeway/interstate then...

I was all over the West. Planning when to fill up the tank became a lifestyle, which is stupid. I was so happy to get a gas car - just filled up whenever I felt like it (freedom!), and the engine doesn't sound like a**. There was a stretch on I-40 where the only place to find fuel was in the actual truck portion of a truck stop. The semi sized nozzle did not fit my filler - I remember trying to pour it in and spilling over the side. I had to plan my routes to be near stations with diesel. And even then, it always cost significantly more than regular gas, and the s*** would get on your hand from the dirty pump handles. Eau De Diesel does not attract the ladies (which is kinda ironic because now I wear cologne made by "Diesel").

I have noticed diesel is more available in the South. Almost every station out here offers it, so perhaps things would be different now... but I am not going out of my way to buy another one. Been there, done that.

[IBCoupe]

100% agreed, Greg.

[AZhitman]

100% agreed, Greg.

[Encryptshun]

OMFG

[Rev_D21]

Diesel is dirty.

Not the new engines, Paccar has CARB certified diesels in Petes and KWs now. They are so clean that some internal parts have only minutes out of the package before they go bad. And with new CGI(compacted graphite iron) construction the new Paccar MX engine is able to achieve a pretty decent power to weight ratio.

[PoorManQ45]

Here's a thought: maybe efficiency isn't what appeals to us about cars? Maybe what the average person needs to have isn't what the average person wants to have for a reason. It's suggested that people don't like taxes on the super-rich because they want to be super-rich themselves, one day.

So most people don't drive the Brickyard 500. Doesn't mean those people are satisfied with being unable to do so. I really think this is the wrong audience for your thoughts, as much merit as they have.

I guess I'm going at this the wrong way.

what happens if/when the pumps start running dry?

everything I see you guys talk about is using resources in excess...

[AppleBonker]

Diesel is dirty.

Not the new engines, Paccar has CARB certified diesels in Petes and KWs now. They are so clean that some internal parts have only minutes out of the package before they go bad. And with new CGI(compacted graphite iron) construction the new Paccar MX engine is able to achieve a pretty decent power to weight ratio.

Haha, sorry. My post was intended to bait PMQ. I was hoping for a long response not to read, but he didn't bite. Guess he wasn't a fan of my worm?