Turboing a KADE

[redtop91]

It is not automatic that I need piston rings and forged internals to mildly boost my KA.

Reading FTW.

Mild boost KA's mostly will at least require new piston rings

Key word being mostly. Being uninformed is ok. Being uninformed and not listening to proper info = fail.

[Kittychubbs]

Hiif you want KAT go for it, its a fun engine with alot of torque.its not Hard to get a kit together and for the fuel management you can upgrade the fuel pump to a walbro 90$ and 370sr injectors for 100$ and a z32 or Q45 Maf for around 150$ or less and then sum other lilttle things, don't be discuraged, by things like that with time and a little help from us you will have your 240 eating girly Srt4's in no time. check out other threads and Search for answers and new ideas. see you around!

oh and the SR its a great engine too. Im glad its a Nissan engine with great RPM and a good market backup.

[Vernal]

Key word being mostly. Being uninformed is ok. Being uninformed and not listening to proper info = fail.

Seriously man, how was I uninformed? So you are saying that there is a huge chance of me needing to change my rings. You said that most KAs will need new rings, but that is all dependent on the condition of the engine like I said before.

[redtop91]

No comment. You cannot / will not read so there is no point in even continuing with you. Good luck with your project though.

[Vernal]

Ok thanks.

[Ligouri Rd]

Mild boost KA's mostly will at least require new piston rings which equates to motor disassembly and added cost and effort. Above mild boost, most KA's will require forged internals, yet another disassembly and added cost.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information from, 5564 posts aside, piston rings are not the limiting factor in turbocharging a KA. As long as there is enough fuel and timing is retarded enough to prevent knock, tons of people have run around on stock blocks as long as they were in good condition to start with. It is true that much above that boost level will require forged pistons, since the stock ring lands start to give out.

Mods: How bout moving this to the KA-T forum, eh?

[Vernal]

Yeah that would probably get us more opinions and info

[redtop91]

piston rings are not the limiting factor in turbocharging a KA

Blow by FTW?

[Ligouri Rd]

On a ka the blow by is usually caused by cracked piston ring lands, not failure of the rings themselves.

[180fan]

Agreed. Moving to the KA-T section.

[extreme135]

I agree,I also blew my 1st and 4th ring lands about 3 weeks ago, the rings were fine, but that was indeed after boosting for two years on stock bottom end up to 16psi, but my engine is now almost done being built.Here is one of the culprits

[Vernal]

Well that is understandable. I mean boosting a stock KA for 2 years on 16 psi is pretty brutal.

[boriquaS13]

Vernal opinions are like buttholes everyone has one, but I feel you should do whatever it is you want to do with your car. Btw a mildly boosted ka should do just fine if the fuel management is done right, which ever way you go with. Goodluck with your buildup and keep posting.

[Ezzo]

Only food for thought about this thread. As I'm aiming for the same power goal as you are.

A lot of people who post their failure storys never really say what compressor they were using and under what bar of pressure. 16psi out of a t25 and 16psi out of a gt28rs are two different ballparks. and what is the history of there KA before boost.

Ringlands seem to come off as the #1 ka killer. aside from crappy tunes. Wouldn't a good compression test result give you a semi accurate idea of your ring conditions?

Agreed that there isn't a safe bolt-on kit for the ka that is reasonably priced for the frugal tuner. It's about your level of knowledge on the subject and your engine. Thats why i've been researching my ka-t project for almost a year now. (learning a lot along the way. more than a shopping list and a DIY). Some people are running 300hp on all stock internals. Some people blow up at 5psi. Do you have faith in the condition of your engine? How is your cooling system? ever had your engine overheat? All things you need to know beforehand. My ka is in amazing condition I bought it with 108k on it. Had a leekey injector so it sat for a wile. It's overheated on me once, and the piston rings were accidentally washed when the fuel rail wasn't purged before changing an injector. On that basis alone to be safe I'm going to put out the extra work and say 400$ in parts to rebuild another KA in it's place. A lot of your reliability will be in chance. there is no definite. But you can lean the favor to your side by researching and using your knowledge to keep your KA safe. Don't let me discourage you from your project it's an excellent learning experience.

[Chezedik]

I'm guessing it wasn't 16psi for two years that killed it. It was the one boost spike that hit 21. You were fine before, you just had stock internals. Two things to do, install the overboost protector, and install forged pistons. Call it good.

Ezzo, do a little more research. Ring condition is not the same as ringland condition.

BTW, did that damage the cyl walls?

[Ezzo]

Care to recommend me some reading material?

[GTR PrYdE]

Is the car in your sig yours? Unless you swapped a DE in it... it has an KA24E

[Chezedik]

Were the stock SR injectors 370cc? I just want something similar to a stock SR setup on my KA.

I just bought Q45 injectors for mine because they are 370's and what?!? CHEAP. You can get two sets for the price of one set of SR injectors, and sell the other set to break even.

[Chezedik]

Sorry Ezzo, I deleted this from my subscribed posts, I will see what I can do here:

In the mean time, understand that the reason ringlands fail is typically detonation. The reason is that when detonation occurs it is such a fast flame front that it causes a very large increase in cyl pressures, typically higher than those caused by normal combustion, and then a subsequent drop in pressure. This does two things, first causes undue stress on the parts of the rotating assembly that is still on the upstroke and a significant loss in power at that point in the engine's operation.

Since we are really more concerned with the engine damage, forget about the power loss for now. When this huge rise in pressure happens, while the piston is coming up, something has to relieve the stress. Sometimes the motor is fine with a little detonation. But over time it causes stress fractures in the weakest part of the piston head, the ringlands. This is what causes them to break. The high rise in pressure is also what causes some people with severe detonation (typically due to a boost spike) to bend rods.

The power loss is important because it allows us to identify detonation in a tuning situation on a dynamometer. When you see a relatively smooth curve with a quick downward spike, this is detonation.

Detonation and Pre-ignition is not the same thing. Pre-ignition is usually caused by a overly lean condition which causes a hot spot in the cylinder. While this is not ideal, it is not nearly as harmful as detonation. This usually occurs at or near the top of the pistons travel, and causes a loss in power, and a slight vibration (must less powerful than the vibe caused by detonation). It is easy to prevent, which is one reason why everyone is so interested in watching their AFR's. It's signature sound is caused by two flame fronts hitting each other.

Detonation is caused by a high pressure which generates enough heat to ignite the fuel. This can generally only be combated to a certain extent through timing control and use of high octane fuels or water/meth injection systems. Point being, you aren't going to pull off 11:1 with 15psi on anything besides a Honda. The reason is that the pressures will build up causing a heat increase causing a bit of the fuel to burn off early, and start the whole thing. This is how diesels ignite, through high boost and high compression, without spark. Honda can get away with it because of the clover leaf design of the head, which helps to create quench zones in the combustion chamber. Also, adding extra fuel can help a little because of the cooling effect of fuel in comparison to air.

Knock sensors exist to prevent detonation for emission control reasons, because NOx is created in detonation and pre-ignition. California has a problem with Oxides of Nitrogen, me, I like to inhale it.

[GTR PrYdE]

Q45 injectors are sidefeeds that fit the ka's rail the same as sr injectors?? If so, thats awesome... and good to know

[Chezedik]

Yeah, it's in the sticky, and it's what I am about to use. Also, you can usually pick up a whole set for the price of the SR's.

[WDRacing]

So is he WDRacing on here? Anyway like I said before SR is too much time, money and effort. With a KA-T I can just go to autozone and ask him for parts from a 1993 240sx and everything works out with no confusion. Anyway everybody goes SR so the KA-T people are the different ones.

Yep, thats me. WDRacin on AIM or [email protected] is my email. There are lots of options for a cheap reliable turbo kit. The EBAY turbo's are not high quality, but a rebuild kit is only $100 and you get quality garret parts. That is if it does crap out on you. There are a few people that have had no issues at all.

Whats your exact budget and I'll link you to everything you'll need for a cheap reliable low boost kit.

WD

[nissanfanatic]

Just look at other peoples' experiences that have been around for a while..

240sx setups are among the easiest IMO. My setup is so ****ing easy, a caveman could do it.

[WDRacing]

My setup is so ****ing easy, a caveman could do it.

[Abdo]

After I fix the leak I have I want to turbo my stock KADE. I dont want 500hp. I just want a casual hp gain (Around the 250ish area). Is there any KADE turbo kits that you dont have to upgrade your fuel pump, fuel rail, etc. Just a bolt on kit that is reliable and wont put a beating on my engine. I want something like the stock s13 SR has. Small turbo that puts out some hp while being reliable.

Turbocharging a KA motor is lots of fun. I made around 320whp at 12 psi with my setup last summer. I had a t3/t4 garrett turbo, walbro 255lph fuel pump, hks 555cc injectors, AEM Fuel pressure regulator, APexi super air flow converter (safc) and the APexi actuator valve controller type-r (AVC-R), 24" X 12" X 3" Intercooler, 38mm Wastegate, HKS SSQV Blowoff valve, ebay exhaust manifold (with lots of ceramic coating and heat wrap ), HKS Turbo Timer , autometer gauges, etc.--later i switched to the xcessivemotorsports manifold because the ebay ones (i went through 3 of 'em ) cracked like little bishez!320whp lasting almost 9 months is great considering that i never modified/opened the motor, not even a head gasket!! hahah

There are a few KA-T turbokits out there, but they are much more expensive than just doing an SR swap..The only downside that I noticed with turbocharging the KA motor are the piston rings' high tendency to get fried and frequently burning oil (usually after highway runs) Although the KA-T was lots of fun, it was no cheap project. It nearly cost $7,000 before it's demise (threw a rod through my block) this spring.

If i were you, I would either go the cheap way and do an SR swap (200-220whp), or go for the gold and do a KA-T setup (155+whp), it has proven both rewarding and funn as hell!! and btw, there's nothing like the KA's torque

Good luck on whatever you decide to do.P.S. If you don't do any fuel upgrades to a KA-T (hence intentionally running lean, which is extremely dumb to do), you'd better kiss your motor goodbye because it won't last a couple of months.
Modified by Abdo at 6:07 PM 3/30/2007

[Chezedik]

My $.02 on the Ebay turbos, I have had one friend have one that **** out (GT28RS clone) and one that has had it for over a year with NO problems (T3/T04e). For my money, if you don't get greedy and can live with the lack of ball bearing, you can do well.

Or you can do like I did and build yourself a T3/T04 on another turbos frame for a good price, I spent 275 on my Z31 T3/T04b V-trim (.63/.60).

But take it for what it's worth, b/c bottom line is that none of us are going to pull your motor and rebuild it for you.

Do research and decide on your setup. That's why that SEARCH button blinks red.

EDIT: I have always wanted to build a T3/T04e on a T25 frame for use of cheap available parts.

[Ezzo]

Thanks for the reply I actually half expected to get a blinking search button. Ive been busy replacing the cooling system lately so I haven't stoped by the KA-T board. Really informative and cleared up a lot of loose ends for me. I also don't know very much about diegnosing problems from a dyno graph. Most of my knowledge is trained in the body field and engines is just my hobby I learn from all of you. Not to thread jack but I think this would be helpfull to the OP and others reading.

So basicly the bigest cause of failed ringlands is plain bad tuning not a flaw in the parts? I knew the basics about detonation but not pre-ignition. So to combat this in a lower powered reliability based ka-t application. What would your opinion of a basic Water Injection system be? Running a 50/50 mix of water and methanol. Would effectively bring down the intake temps and up your octane levels IIRC. Maybe as a little bit of a safety zone for a tune.

[Chezedik]

More or less. What is your def of low powered? In an 8-10psi setup, I wouldn't do anything more than pull a little timing after 7 psi and make sure that the AFRs are below 12.5:1, unless you are willing to pull more timing. Either will cause a loss in power, but pulling timing will lose more power than running too rich, which is why we all do it. At that low boost level, I wouldn't even bother with Meth/Water injection. Don't use octane boosters, they are bull**** and will do more harm than good. Just use good gas, and if you have to use an additive, use Methanol/Ethanol or Toulene/Xylene.

How do you intend to tune?

[Ezzo]

No I wasn't talking about over the counter octane boosters, only refferencing the effect of the 50/50 water/meth injection. Similar to what a lot of diesels use propain induction for. Maybe I'm talking out of my *** who knows.

I'm leaning tword an enthalpy rom tune and SAFC II or Neo to fine tune. Nothing written in stone yet.

[Chezedik]

Well, if that is all you are doing for tuning you should be fine. The meth injection cools the cyl charge, and prevents detonation. Also, it has a high octane. Water is a better cyl cooler, but cannot be used as a fuel and so some people prefer the meth because of the perceived loss of power associated with injecting a non-combustible into the mix. I think that most of those people forget the kind of power loss detonation causes, so it's cool. Also, water is cheap and easy to come across, Meth is expensive (did I just get flagged?).