The U.S. as a whole, sucks.

[silviaS13milknhoney]

I am an american. This country sucks. Our government will screw us six ways from sunday and we will take it like we love it. I'm sorry to be an american and if our money was worth a **** i'd leave. It's just wrong, a 700 billion dollar bailout, to we as a people caring more about celebrities lives than our friends. I wish there was something i could do, but theres not. It's just sad, GW screwed us.

[krimsonviper]

I'm sorry you're embarrassed about me.

This is also the wrong place to put this. Political forum is that way, ->

[Zydeco]

In before the

[silviaS13milknhoney]

Im sorry about the placement, if a mod could move this, thank you. And no, im not embarrassed about and YOU.

[marlin29311]

I am an american. This country sucks. Our government will screw us six ways from sunday and we will take it like we love it. I'm sorry to be an american and if our money was worth a **** i'd leave. It's just wrong, a 700 billion dollar bailout, to we as a people caring more about celebrities lives than our friends. I wish there was something i could do, but theres not. It's just sad, GW screwed us.

Excellent analysis of the USA. Thanks.

[HashiriyaS14]

We definitely have our problems, but I'm not sure how it can be rationalized that the US "sucks".

You're entitled to your opinion though, I suppose.

That isn't the case in all countries, of course. Some places your post would be edited and you would be rounded up and executed.

It's good to live in a nation where we're allowed to complain once in awhile.

[Urabus GodofTraction]

I am an american. This country sucks. Our government will screw us six ways from sunday and we will take it like we love it. I'm sorry to be an american and if our money was worth a **** i'd leave. It's just wrong, a 700 billion dollar bailout, to we as a people caring more about celebrities lives than our friends. I wish there was something i could do, but theres not. It's just sad, GW screwed us.

Oh buh-buh-buh baby you ain't seen 'nothin' yet!

The next 4 years would be a riot to watch, if I was 10 years older and had money to weather this storm. Fiddle while Rome burned...

That said, I'm a huge fan of walking the walk. You complain, but have you ever written an elected official? Donated to a lobbying organiztion (SEMA, Sierra Club, NRA-ILA, etc)? Run for office?

I'm hoping this bailout thing has opened some eyes, and some Congressmen will be called home this next time around.

[Eikon]

BS!!! The US as a whole is the greatest country in the world.

What you don't hear from the media (which is apparently where the OP got all his ideas about how terrible this country is) is that it's just as bad or worse in most of the other countries of the world.

For example:The British Pound has traded at about 2 US $ per GBP for a very long time. In the past 6 months it's dropped dramatically to about 1.5 US $ per GBP. Today it's at 1.45.

The Euro has been trading at around 1.5 US $ per Euro. Recently it's been as low as 1.25.

The Japanese Yen has been around 110 to 120 yen per Yen for years. Recently it dropped to about 90.

.95 Australian dollars got you $1 US for as recently as last summer. Now it's down to .68.

$1 US was almost equal to $1 Canadian until about Oct. Now it takes $1.25 Can to get a US$.

It gets a little repetitive doesn't it.. Point is that the US$ is trading much higher recently against all other world currencies. Why is that???

It's a sign of stability. The US government has been taking action to secure and stabalize our economy and it's effects can already be seen.

Few other countries in the world have the ability to take such strong and aggresive actions... which is why they are suffering worse than we are.

You just don't hear about that stuff in the media...

[Urabus GodofTraction]

The Japanese Yen has been around 110 to 120 yen per Yen for years. Recently it dropped to about 90.

Getting change in Japan must be confusing!

The Japanese and Australian examples are not examples of the Dollar strengthening.

[Eikon]

The Japanese and Australian examples are not examples of the Dollar strengthening.

I think it's the way I wrote it that's confusing.

1 US $ = 1.44 Austrailian $It used to be closer to 1 US $ = 1.10 Aus $.

You're right about the Japanese yen though.. that one is an example of the opposite of what I was trying to say. Good catch.. thanks!

[AZhitman]

That said, I'm a huge fan of walking the walk. You complain, but have you ever written an elected official? Donated to a lobbying organiztion (SEMA, Sierra Club, NRA-ILA, etc)? Run for office?

Armchair quarterbacking is terribly easy for those who don't actively participate...

I, for one, love my country. Flawed, yes. Failed? No.

Don't take this personal, but I say the same thing every time I hear some whiner piss and moan about this country (especially the ones who have it "good" as a result of our democracy and capitalism):

"Don't let the door hit ya where the Good Lord split ya!"

[Kalypso]

I wish there was something i could do, but theres not. It's just sad, GW screwed us.

It's easy... vote

thats the only thing that ruined this country is our apathy towards politics.

I get excited about voting these days.

[480sx]

Its an apathetic population as a whole. An apathetic population that feels powerless to change the government when we have the means to do so. A pathetic populous is primarily the problem.

The internet generation is going to rip this country a new *******, for its own benefit. Its been a long damn time since the 'kids' cared about politics like they do now.

AZ/Charlieo, on the same page bro.

Eikon, i want to bash you hard for calling the US the greatest country in the world. For strictly economic reasons too, how asinine. I love America, but this country is going down the tubes. It bothers me to see people like you who still cling to the belief that America is the best and can do no wrong. Your line of thinking is part of the problem.

You obviously dont pay any attention to how influential the United states has been and still is in global politics. In addition, you've missed the fact that there are like 3-5 massive powder kegs just waiting for a lite all around the world. Most of which are located in the Middle East. Most of which we have personally stacked with more powder(both literally and figuratively) than they ever would have had if not for our influence.

We are a large contributing factor to a rapidly destabilizing world economy.

We are FEEDING TERRORISM. The global terrorlst network is more organized, more tightly knit, more adaptable and intelligent as well as interconnected in ways that it NEVER was before.

I dont even feel like getting into my rant about what GW and his crew have done to this country. Or the republican lead Congress when they deregulated insurance agencies under Clinton. Or the fvking bailouts.

I love America, but get your head out of the sand. This place is fvked up. We need a revolution. Probably going to have to wait till the kids get their pubes.

[hannibal]

Eikon, I wouldnt take those changes in exchange rates to suggest our economy is strengthening. I believe those changes are a result of other countries experiencing economic slowdown similar to ours. While our currency has appreciated relative to others, its becuase their currency is getting weaker.

[Eikon]

Eikon, i want to bash you hard for calling the US the greatest country in the world. For strictly economic reasons too, how asinine.

You can bash me... it's all good.. that's what the political forum is all about.

Understand though that my statement was directly in response to the original post in this thread in which the OP stated that he hated America and listed mostly economic reasons for that. Hence my economic reasons in response.

I never said our country is perfect... We are far from it. I'll agree with you in many areas when you are critical of our economics, our foreign affairs, our nations morals as a whole, etc...

BUT, I will stand behind my statement. I can't think of a better country in which to live. No other place offers the same opportunities for freedom, success, safety, health, and general quality of life than the USA.

[Eikon]

Eikon, I wouldnt take those changes in exchange rates to suggest our economy is strengthening. I believe those changes are a result of other countries experiencing economic slowdown similar to ours. While our currency has appreciated relative to others, its becuase their currency is getting weaker.

I agree with you.. our economy is not strengthening at this point. We're clearly in a recession and flirting with a depression... But at least our government has the tools available to help change that for the better. Which is why our $ is not depreciating as rapidly as most other major economic players in the world. You are dead on... the other countries currency is weakening more quickly than ours.... which leads me to point out why I made the post in the first place...

My point in posting the recent strengthening of our $ was purely to counter the OP's post..

I'm sorry to be an american and if our money was worth a **** i'd leave. It's just wrong, a 700 billion dollar bailout,...

[Kalypso]

I love America, but get your head out of the sand. This place is fvked up. We need a revolution. Probably going to have to wait till the kids get their pubes.

I love this thread... its great to see that I'm surrounded by sensible people.

as a generation we're smarter now.

[WDRacing]

If you don't like the way things are run, change it or STFU.

Get out and ralley...storm the white house in the nude, you'll get press time I promise.

Or sit back and complain about how things suck and talk about it online...in a teh eff bomb!!!1!!!eleven!!ing car forum!!!

If you hate the US, I suggest to move or off yourself. Post your address, I'll send you a rusty razor you friggin mouth breathing titty baby.

Peace, I'm OUTWD

[heliochrome85]

I am an american. This country sucks. Our government will screw us six ways from sunday and we will take it like we love it. I'm sorry to be an american and if our money was worth a **** i'd leave. It's just wrong, a 700 billion dollar bailout, to we as a people caring more about celebrities lives than our friends. I wish there was something i could do, but theres not. It's just sad, GW screwed us.

thank you for that well worded analysis. Its a wonder your sweet and concise prose isnt used in Harvard Law Review publications. You sir are on the fast track for a pullizter prize. such hard hitting and indepth analysis must be recognised and applauded.

DIAF.

[AZhitman]

^ Amen.

To 480, I think your critique of Seth's position was way off-base.

People forget that we're the most generous country in the world. Millions, if not BILLIONS of people would starve and die if it weren't for our foreign aid.

The UN (which we fund for the most part) would wither and die.

Treaties that certain rogue countries adhere to ONLY because they fear our military might would certainly take the opportunity to pick on a smaller neighbor.

To imply that somehow terrorism is the fault of our policies is to ignore the thousands of years of history that occurred before the GWB administration.

Millions and millions of people around the world are FREE of tyranny and harsh oppression BECAUSE of our intervention.

Countless instances of genocide, ethnic cleansing, systematic slaughters, forced relocation and other atrocities have been prevented by the might and the will of the US and our belief that everyone has a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

To assume that sitting back and letting them figure it out on their own will somehow magically make everyone get along is to completely miss the point - Ain't gonna happen.

Let me know how it is living in present-day Mexico, or Cuba, or 1900 Armenia, or 1939 Poland, or Somalia, or Darfur, or.....

Talk (and plane tickets) are cheap.

[480sx]

My post dwells on the negative while yours stayed positive. I have my reasons for dwelling on the negative, although i try not to as much as possible. Take it for what its worth. In addition, your much older than i am and have had the benefit of seeing a different America than i have seen. The one i see currently is going down the toilet. The past is outweighed by the potential future, and thats what one should think about IMO. Learn from the mistakes and successes of the past, be a student of history so that you can better adapt to the present and look into the future. On our current path, America does not seem to have a bright future.

We fund 22 percent of the UN. This is a lions share, and money spent towards the greater good IMO.

Your also basically defending America as a global police force, and saying that its result is positive. Why then is America so hated by the rest of the world? Why do we have people who have been screened by us and Iraqi service men throwing shoes at our president and calling him a dog(as one TINY example of the kind of hate people have for America). Can you really just dismiss all this global opinion?

In the end, theres no real way of telling what all good we have done and what bad. I just believe that at the current moment, for the last 10+ years, the bad is outweighing the good.

Who are these millions and millions of people that we have freed because of our intervention?

Do you think our intervention had no negative repercussions and never will? For every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction. We use a LOT of force to police the globe, most of which will never be known. Can you even begin to comprehend how many 'evil doers' we've pissed off? How many people have sworn Jihad, or death to America because of our actions?

I was pretty specific, we are adding to the current 'powder kegs' all over the world, not disarming them. The middle east is a perfect example. I never said we created them or any such thing.

I never implied that Terrorism in general is the fault of our policies. Im saying we are making the terrorists focus on US. Im saying we are making them smarter, more adaptable, more connected and more deadly than ever before. This is a DIRECT result of our 'War On Terror'. A war mishandled from day one. A war with so many possible ulterior motives its mind boggling to think about. The next 50 years will see some very, very nasty terrorlst attacks. These people dont just strap bombs to their chest because they are all nut jobs. They HATE us dude, for things we have done. For spouses and children that we have accidentally blown up. For our unrelenting support of Israel. Just to name a few reasons.

To assume that sitting back and letting them figure it out on their own will somehow magically make everyone get along is to completely miss the point - Ain't gonna happen.

No, its not. However if we lead by example and prove that our democracy, our system of government works for our people and the rest of the world, that would be a much better step towards something as absurd as world peace than policing the globe with Spy sats, secret CIA prisons, Tomahawks, Patriots, Carriers with loaded f-16's, ect.

Are you really advocating us imposing our way of government on countries with problems? Time warp.. Convince the Indians to renounce their pagan ways and make their lives better. Or, present day. Hows that working in Iraq? Oh thats right, we dont know how its working because America has the country on LOCK. Imagine whats going to happen when we let them be 'free'. Genocide, ethnic cleansing, systematic slaughters, forced relocation and other atrocities included. Not to mention it being a global terrorlst target that EVERY terrorlst is going to want a piece of. Wheres your positive outcome in all this AZ? You think the Iraqi people will see us as liberators and live in peace?

There o/c in our lifetime will be no end to this. "But it has to start sometime, has to start somewhere. What better place than here, what better time than now."

I love this country, but fvk this government.
Modified by 480sx at 8:54 PM 12/30/2008

[Urabus GodofTraction]

Why then is America so hated by the rest of the world? Why do we have people who have been screened by us and Iraqi service men throwing shoes at our president and calling him a dog(as one TINY example of the kind of hate people have for America). Can you really just dismiss all this global opinion? Modified by 480sx at 8:54 PM 12/30/2008

The actions of people are a poor judge of rational actions by states.

People, on a whole, have a foreign policy scope of exactly zero. Ever try and make a dirty kid take a bath? It's in the kid's best interest, but he'll be damned if he gets one!

People are like that. That Iraqi didn't stop to think that he was free to throw that shoe and not die, and who gave him that freedom (the U.S. backed by brave men from many countries). Instead, maybe he was upset that his house got bombed, or was without power for a while.

This is why a direct democracy would be a disaster. We'd be entering and leaving conflicts daily! Darfur is bad! Wait, servicemen are dying! Out of Darfur! Etc, etc.

On American intervention outside of it's borders: America (and all sovereign states, really) has a right to defend itself from any threat, anywhere in the world, by any means judged necessary. This is a two way street, as Iraqi had the right to defend itself from an American attack just as much as America had the right to attack it. We just had better guns, and that's the final judgment of kings. Where it gets tricky is civilians taking up arms. With that, my OPINION is that because America is on the on the right thing side of the fence, an Iraqi civilian cannot ethically attack American troops (it would be like you assaulting a police officer giving you a ticket). If Iraqi were to invade the U.S., however, we being the shining city on the hill have the ethical backing to repeal invaders (see the French Resistance of WW2).


Modified by charlieo at 10:07 PM 1/1/2009

[HashiriyaS14]

On American intervention outside of it's borders: America (and all sovereign states, really) has a right to defend itself from any threat, anywhere in the world, by any means judged necessary. This is a two way street, as Iraqi had the right to defend itself from an American attack just as much as America had the right to attack it. We just had better guns, and that's the final judgment of kings. Where it gets tricky is civilians taking up arms. With that, my OPINION is that because America is on the on the right thing side of the fence, an Iraqi civilian cannot ethically attack American troops (it would be like you assaulting a police officer giving you a ticket). If Iraqi were to invade the U.S., however, we being the shining city on the hill have the ethical backing to repeal invaders (see the French Resistance of WW2).

Unfortunately, like it or not, the "right side of the fence" is subjective. It is especially subjective when the nation being invaded didn't really have any credible ties to terrorism. Some Iraqi civilians may well just see us as a faceless occupier, it all depends on how their specific personal situation has been changed by the occupation. Some are better off, some aren't. The ones who aren't are not unjustified in viewing us with a certain degree of animosity. I mean, if an US soldier is fired up on, no matter who's shooting, the soldier should of course return fire, but that doesn't mean that we should expect all Iraqi citizens to cheerfully embrace a US "police force".

And technically, there IS binding international law in regards to who can invade whom and why. America seems to like to ignore it, and sometimes I'll admit that it needs to be ignored, but that doesn't make it irrelevant.

Furthermore, having the right to do something or the ability to do something regardless of NOT having the right doesn't necessarily make the thing a good idea.

[Urabus GodofTraction]

And technically, there IS binding international law in regards to who can invade whom and why. America seems to like to ignore it, and sometimes I'll admit that it needs to be ignored, but that doesn't make it irrelevant.

Agree on the subjective part. The only difference is that with a state's actions, what is subjective can become fact.

Strongly disagree on the "binding international law." There is no such thing. A state is ultimatly answerable only to itself (and in the US's case, it's citizens). All international "laws" are contracts maintained only because it's in the state's best interest. They're not irrelivant, but international "laws" always remain secondary to national security policy (be those policies good or bad).

We're doomed to disagree on this because for FP issues, you're a Liberal Internationalist, and I'm a Realist.

Liberal not used in the "blue" sense, and Realist not used in the "glass half full/empty" sense.

[smockers83]

I don't know if using binding to describe international law is the correct term, but it is a system of explicit and implicit. Ever hear of the ICJ, the ICC, the Hague? Nation-states are brought to international court all the time for injustices such as the improper use of force.

[lizmo]

Don't like it? Get the teh eff bomb!!!1!!!eleven!! OUT!

[Urabus GodofTraction]

I don't know if using binding to describe international law is the correct term, but it is a system of explicit and implicit. Ever hear of the ICJ, the ICC, the Hague? Nation-states are brought to international court all the time for injustices such as the improper use of force.

Only the losers.

[Jesda]

I came here from elsewhere. While the rest of the world is full of greatness and beauty, I prefer to call this place home.

As for US intervention, there are solid examples of when it works and when it does not work. There doesn't seem to be a principled stand one could take on the issue without being wrong half the time. It really is a case of situational ethics.

As for the OP, he sums up effectively why the "hate America" crowd lacks credibility.

[480sx]

That Iraqi didn't stop to think that he was free to throw that shoe and not die, and who gave him that freedom (the U.S. backed by bravo men from many countries).

Hah, great point.

The actions of people are a poor judge of rational actions by states.

You ignored the point of that quote completely.

I agree with you on direct democracy.

Charlieo, Jesda, you both seem to be making a similar argument. Basically that everyone, everywhere in the 'Hate America crowd' doesnt have the capacity to be a fair judge of a countries actions. Ludicrous

I'm a Realist.

Hey your in my political party and didnt even know it!

[Cold_Zero]

I don't know guys. I already have three of my family members signed up to immigrate to Switzerland. You know, its been over 300 years since my family came to the US. We have had a good run of it. We survived Indian Attacks, The American Revolution, the Civil War and the Great Depression. We even fought for the Allies during WWII and in fought in South East Asia. Maybe its time for the Father Land to accept us back. With Europe being taken over by Middle Easterners and North Africans maybe they would accept a few Americans.bud