The Latest Islamic Suicide Attack

[AZhitman]

"This heinous massacre reflects the ugly face of the Zionist Nazi occupation," said Abdel Latif Qanou, a Hamas spokesman.

Shortly after the explosion, Hamas said it fired a barrage of mortar shells and rockets toward southern Israel.

Anyone else see the ridiculousness of this?

[rn79870]

I'm going out on a limb here and say that the theory of premature explosion within the home may have been the cause.

How can they call it an air raid when no one reported seeing aircraft of any type in the area. It's too bad that civilians are often the target of violence in the area.

[ishkabibble]

There's religion, and then there's a universal RIGHT AND WRONG.

If it's universal, there would be no substantive debate.

Glad to see rn coming around. His statements on Iran and attempt to walk back what he said (which was perhaps not what he meant) were really aggravating. While I dislike living in DC, one of the nice things about this city is you meet people from all over the world.. and realize that most of us are pretty much the same.

[rn79870]

If it's universal, there would be no substantive debate.

Glad to see rn coming around. His statements on Iran and attempt to walk back what he said (which was perhaps not what he meant) were really aggravating. While I dislike living in DC, one of the nice things about this city is you meet people from all over the world.. and realize that most of us are pretty much the same.

Trust me, I still have no problem sending every militant to the promise land, and I'd still be willing to pull the switch, drop the bomb or whatever it took to do that. That's basically what I said to start with, and that's how I still feel. If anything, I'd be more careful about involving innocent people in the process, and that is more than they'd do for us.

Also, thanks to Helio, I see that we do receive a lot of misinformation here in the US, and I'll be more suspicious of those reports in the future.

[heliochrome85]

if i didnt pass along the word that we're not all terrrists, then what good am i? maybe its part of some master plan... ive infiltrated NICO. America is ours!

//it was alot funnier in my head///im tired.////and hungry////soon to be tired because of being too full.

[audtatious]

Nobody has accused you of being a terrorlst

[heliochrome85]

maybe not a terrorlst, but definately a terrrrrrrist. as in we're gonna get dem terrrrists.

[heliochrome85]

also, i appreciate the questions. its not often that one gets the opportunity to have an honest debate on these subjects. hit me up on aim and we can chat further sometime.

[heliochrome85]

also, let me know how The Looming Tower works out. I have a laundry list of fantastic books on the region. it may be why i got my second bachelors in history.

[audtatious]

maybe not a terrorlst, but definately a terrrrrrrist. as in we're gonna get dem terrrrists.

You forgot the word "dirty" in there

I kid, I kid....

[heliochrome85]

it was implicit.

[HashiriyaS14]

As with any argument, it's a lot more complicated if you carry it out to its extreme.

OK, so Brian and his NAMBLA buddies are being "persecuted"? Because, I mean, they can't molest little boys anymore, because of a religious ideal that someone else ascribes to.

Here's the catch:

There's religion, and then there's a universal RIGHT AND WRONG.

This isn't "persecution on religious grounds".

Those who critique people of faith can only go so far before they have to admit that there DOES exist a universal right and wrong, which makes it damn tough to deny the existence of a force or a being greater than us.

Yes, and in the case of people getting their heads chopped off in Saudi Arabia, I'd definitely say that's firmly into the grounds of "universal right and wrong".

The examples I gave, definitely not so much, they're subjective, which is why it seems odd to me when certain groups try to make them OBJECTIVE.

I really wasn't trying to pull those issues into this discussion for the sake of doing it, I just wanted to illustrate that religion DOES at times dictate policy in the United States (unfortunately), despite what some people may want to think about us being immune or above that.

[audtatious]

FWIW, BBC reports that Hamas admitted that the above referenced explosion were "Members of the Ezzedine al-Qassam Brigades were trying to prepare for a Jihad operation". Of course, their initial response to their own guys blowing themselve up was to launch 50+ rocket and mortar attacks against Israel.

[szh]

One, I'd love to have 6 hours to sit down with helio over a few beers and talk about all this stuff... I often wonder what it's like to see the whole experience through someone else's eyes, and I think there's some insight there that we can learn from.

I'll join you guys ...

Back on point - It's time for every person of the Muslim faith to speak out strongly against the atrocities committed by those who have hijacked their faith.

Yes, as a Muslim, I agree with this 100%. I am completely opposed to crazies who commit atrocities - no matter what their cause or religious background and say so when I can. I am not important enough to be quoted in the media though!

We Christians condemn our misguided zealots, it's time for the followers of Islam to do the same.

Totally agreed. The problem has been that the people who do condemn the craziness - particularly in foreign countries where the extremists exist - are rarely, if EVER, covered in the media here. It is not deemed "newsworthy" here in the US media.

We should all be aware that the media writes what they can sell (look at the US papers and the coverage on US events - do you believe ecerything you read about that?) and extremists get the coverage because it panders to the vast majority of non-thinking readers and sells better!

For example, Pakistan (my country of origin, although I am a US citizen and have been for 25 years) is always portrayed as a dictator-run nation, overrun by religious zealots, always mentioned with negative comments about how the government is not properly supporting the war on terror, etc.

Yet, here is what gets written when a rational, unbiased, US citizen - who does not care about whether he is selling copies of a newspaper - looks deeper: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/21194. Notice that in this "dictator run nation", the recent voting was about as accurate (and democratic) as could have been expected. Sure there are problems, but things are changing too.

Also notice that the amount of "support" for the religious extremists that might have existed in the vocal people in Pakistan at one time, has dropped dramatically since the spate of bombings carried out by the fanatics. These extremists do not care who their targets are ... they are only interested in the terror they cause.

Z

[szh]

the news is 100% capitolizing on one instance and painting the region as such. In my 23 years on this earth and of all the palces ive been, ive never witnessed or heard of situations where people were HAPPY that innocent lives were lost. It is morally indefensable even if you remove the religion aspect.

Exactly right. My sister is in Pakistan and in the television news media. At the time of 9/11, she was in their news room in Karachi watching the events unfold - live - on their monitors. She told me later that everyone in their news room (more than thirty or forty people ... mostly all Muslim and a few Christians - if that matters) began crying openly when they saw the people jumping from the top levels of the towers before the buildings collapsed. Not one person was unmoved or said anything untoward about it.

The bottom line: terrorism is morally wrong - period. Yes, the suicide bombers are also doing wrong. Yes, I do understand why some of them do what they do (deperation in some cases, brainwashing of kids in others, and an act of last resort), but the act is still fundamentally wrong.

Again, as has been said already above, please don't judge a country or a people or a religion by the acts of a few - often, those few control the externally visible perception of the country or people or religion. And, often also the case, the educational level and literacy rate of many of those countries is low enough that the masses can be misled by the few - at least for long enough that the "tit for tat" misconception and mistrust problems take deep root.

Sad.

Z

[szh]

Anyone else see the ridiculousness of this?

Yup.

The mistrust of years takes its toll all the time in the Mideast crisis.

Z

[AZhitman]

Z, glad you joined us in here...

For those of you who don't know Z, he's a good and loyal friend who I have had the pleasure of working with for several years, and even got to meet him during one of his jaunts to AZ...

Here's hoping he pops in here more frequently to share his first-hand insight into a culture many of us know too little about.

[AZhitman]

FWIW, BBC reports that Hamas admitted that the above referenced explosion were "Members of the Ezzedine al-Qassam Brigades were trying to prepare for a Jihad operation". Of course, their initial response to their own guys blowing themselve up was to launch 50+ rocket and mortar attacks against Israel.

That's some serious pwnt right there.

[heliochrome85]

very cool.

[audtatious]

That's some serious pwnt right there.

IMO it just shows what Israel is facing. Terrorists blow themselves up with what seems to be a pre-planned attack authorized by Hammas and Hammas takes that as a reason to bomb Israel before admitting it. This at the same time that Israel is waiting for another cease-fire agreement.

[szh]

IMO it just shows what Israel is facing. Terrorists blow themselves up with what seems to be a pre-planned attack authorized by Hammas and Hammas takes that as a reason to bomb Israel before admitting it. This at the same time that Israel is waiting for another cease-fire agreement.

The years of mistrust on both sides has driven people to take actions that tend to border on extremism in their own way.

The Mideast problem is going to be a damn tough nut to solve ... by any standards and measures of success.

Sad.

Z

[szh]

Z, glad you joined us in here...

For those of you who don't know Z, he's a good and loyal friend who I have had the pleasure of working with for several years, and even got to meet him during one of his jaunts to AZ...

Here's hoping he pops in here more frequently to share his first-hand insight into a culture many of us know too little about.

Thanks, Greg! It was a pleasure to meet you guys and your family as well.

I will try to pop in here occasionally ...

Z

[audtatious]

The years of mistrust on both sides has driven people to take actions that tend to border on extremism in their own way.

The Mideast problem is going to be a damn tough nut to solve ... by any standards and measures of success.

Sad.

Z

Sad is true

The one thing that hangs out in my mind is that Israel does not send their own people over to other countries to blow themselves up. Most of their actions from a military perspective seem to be reactionary or somewhat proactive based on intel.

[szh]

The one thing that hangs out in my mind is that Israel does not send their own people over to other countries to blow themselves up. Most of their actions from a military perspective seem to be reactionary or somewhat proactive based on intel.

It is a question of resources. One side has the US backing it with state of the art weapons and delivery systems, etc. and the other side resorts to what they have - simple bombs (the weapons) and their bodies (the delivery systems).

The problem is the targets are innocent victims.

Believe me, I consider suicide bombings of innocent people completely repugnant and will never endorse it at all, but I do understand the "why they do it" in the minds of a few of them - desperation and the feeling of "this is all I have left" is the motivator for some of them.

Z

[szh]

Back on point - It's time for every person of the Muslim faith to speak out strongly against the atrocities committed by those who have hijacked their faith.

We Christians condemn our misguided zealots, it's time for the followers of Islam to do the same.

Yes!

I said my personal statements earlier, but here is some other stuff ... they don't get media airtime either :

http://www.jewishaz.com/jewish...shtml

(Dr. Zuhdi Jasser, a Phoenix physician and chairman of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy, organized the event.

Jasser said it's time to "rally together around certain absolute, moral truths that make civilized life possible. God has created all these spiritual paths to lay down certain eternal, absolute laws so that humankind can live in peace. The killing of innocent people out of revenge, hate or retribution is against those absolute laws. People can justify their actions all day long, but we as Muslims are saying ... that those acts are against every thing for which we stand.")

http://www.rayhawk.com/classics/matusa/home.html

Muslims AGAINST Terrorism was founded in the wake of the tragedy of September 11th by a group of young American Muslims. Our goal is to honor the loss of the thousands who were senselessly killed by working to ensure that it never happens again. We stand, as Muslims, against all forms of terrorism in all parts of the world. We seek to increase awareness and understanding about the true teachings of Islam, a religion that preaches peace, love of humanity and service to the community. We are actively engaged in outreach to all individuals and organizations. We seek to inspire other groups and communities to speak up against violence and injustice around the world. Only through dialogue, cooperation, and mutual respect can we achieve the peace and justice the world so urgently needs.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

"Grand Sheikh Mohammed Sayed Tantawi of the Al-Azhar mosque of Cairo - which is seen as the highest authority in Sunni Islam - said groups which carried out suicide bombings were the enemies of Islam. Speaking at the conference in the Malaysian capital, Kuala Lumpur, Sheikh Tantawi said extremist Islamic groups had appropriated Islam and its notion of jihad, or holy struggle, for their own ends.BBC News, 11 July, 2003"

http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

Memo to Osama bin Laden:"I would rather live in America under Ashcroft and Bush at their worst, than in any “Islamic state” established by ignorant, intolerant and murderous punks like you and Mullah Omar at their best."A thought-provoking, controversial, pre-war article by Muqtedar Khan, Ph.D., February 12, 2003)

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

It has often been claimed in the media that Muslims are "silent" and do not condemn terrorism. This page is intended to refute that claim. Muslims have not been silent. Not even close.

This last one is interesting ... lots of links that are worth reading.

Z

[audtatious]

It is a question of resources. One side has the US backing it with state of the art weapons and delivery systems, etc. and the other side resorts to what they have - simple bombs (the weapons) and their bodies (the delivery systems).

The problem is the targets are innocent victims.

Believe me, I consider suicide bombings of innocent people completely repugnant and will never endorse it at all, but I do understand the "why they do it" in the minds of a few of them - desperation and the feeling of "this is all I have left" is the motivator for some of them.

Z

My point is that Hammas themselves are still actively sanctioning these bombings while Israel is waiting for the outcome of a potential cease-fire agreement. Realize I'm not saying the issue is with the Palestinian people as a whole but with the leaders and those who are using the situation as a means to Jihad the jews with less potential for a backlash from Israel. This seems to happen time and time again yet the UN primarily sanctions Israel or blames them for almost everything (more of my perception at least).

I kind of look at this by what my thought would be on a comparisson. Let's say citizens of Mexico are sending over suicide bombers or lobbing rockets into US towns because they state they want us all dead, they want an open boarders policy and because they want to take back the western half of the US because they feel it is "theirs" and we "stole it from them". Each time we try to negotiate they never end their attacks. We have military might where they do not. Do I say "oh gee, I should do what these people want because they are mad enough at us that they are killing themselves and lobbing missles at us" or do I take a "Oh really? You want us dead and off the land and only use negotiations as a ploy? Well, FU" stance?

[rn79870]

And that's the problem Matt. What works (has worked) is like kind exchanges, death for death. As unfortunate as that is, it appears to be the only option on the table, or so the participants feel.

Since no one is willing to break the circle of violence it continues until finally, a day comes when the country with the weapons has finally had enough. On that day, they stand up and with the mightiest of mighty blows, they level their enemy.

The world loses when the "kill 'em and let God sort them out" attitude prevails. But a reasonable man can see that this is just what may be in store for the middle east unless they put an end to the terrorism. It just won't end pretty for the multitude of innocent people involved.

[audtatious]

I'm sure not arguing about that. The question is, who should be bigger here? Should Israel lower their guard when history shows them they should not (and leaders of other countries are calling for them to be wiped out) or should the other side of the equation actually make a real attempt at peace and working things out?

[rn79870]

If you were living in Israel what would you want. I'm going to guess that the Palestinian's see it the same way, that is, with Israel as the aggressor. In fact, it's a circle, with each side being the aggressor and the victim.

There are only two possible end games in my opinion. One side says no more and stops the the aggression, or one side switches to all out war mode. When you're fighting for survival, things look different and the game plan changes.

In your example re: Mexico, what do you think the US would do, retaliate? or escalate?

[audtatious]

Based on todays Govt? Open the boarders and give them the West....