The Ethanol Situation - How the US Screwed Up

[AZhitman]

This article from the NYT really exposes the consequences of attempting to artificially manipulate supply and demand, as well as failing to allow the free market to self-regulate.

This would be comical, if it weren't so sad. No one wins in this deal.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/17/us/17ethanol.html

It makes me wonder what kind of nitwits we have in Congress, when I read statements like:

"...lawmakers assumed that demand for fuel would grow," followed closely by "...average fuel economy rules in place to double average MPG by 2025."

For years, the US authorized subsidies for farmers to let their fields lie fallow. Then they implemented subsidies for farmers to produce more corn. Then they mandated that more ethanol be added to gasoline. Then they let the subsidies expire. So, now, instead of paying them to farm, or NOT farm, now they'll be paying them in public assistance.

Didn't their mothers ever tell them, "If you keep picking at it, it will never heal."

Here's the problem, in a nutshell: "Congress set out to create an ethanol industry..." Congress can't effectively "create" a sustainable industry. The free market can. It's arrogant to think otherwise.

Artificial manipulation almost always results in disaster. This is one of the best examples.

I'm sure there are some bright economists here - What are your thoughts?

[NolimitZ32]

[AZhitman]

Can't argue with that...

[NolimitZ32]

Sorry I know this is meant to be a serious thread but I just feel that truly a picture is worth 1000 words

[Dattebayo]

It's kinda doubtful that free market would ever embrace something that costs more and creates less power until it's absolutely necessary.

Maybe we should just wait for it all to run out, then we will just have to adapt? I doubt people will really do it any other way.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

Ethanol is fantastic as log as you're set up to deal with it.
I'd love to get my hands on some E100

[LongBeachCoupe]

Market manipulation is what caused Cotton to be a chief inferior crop here in the US...

[AZhitman]

It's kinda doubtful that free market would ever embrace something that costs more and creates less power until it's absolutely necessary.

Yep.

The free market has, however, shown marked interest in alternative fuels / hybrids, without a bunch of Washington nincompoops cramming it down our throats.

I drive a hybrid for purely selfish reasons... I paid $5K for a car that I never have to wash, change the oil once, maybe twice a year, I put $35 in the gas tank once a month, and I drive 650+ miles. THAT is how the free market is supposed to work.

On a side note, a lot of the drift kids are taking their shagged S-chassis and converting them to run on E85 and boosting the ever-living piss out of them. But the drawbacks of adding ethanol to automotive fuels are WELL-documented...

Stupid politicians think, "Well, more cars breaking down = less gas-guzzlers on the road, plus more new cars sold! We'll stimulate the economy!"

[PapaSmurf2k3]

I like how Koenigsegg builds their cars specifically to run on ethanol, and then de-tunes them to run on the limp wristed crap we call fuel here haha.

I'd love it if more companies did that... like you get 500hp from the corvette on E85, but maybe 400 on premium.

More choices is always a good thing. It would just suck to add another tank to all our gas stations. It's really what SHOULD happen though, then you could buy any ethanol blend you want. The old cars can get their straight up petrol, new cars can do E15 or whatever, us gearheads can get E85 or E100

[Ace2cool]

In a perfect world, James, that would be beautiful. And 100 octane on pump as well.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

Chris just needs to put it on his list of things to do when he takes over the world.

[WDRacing]

CNG is better than ethanol and petro in every way. AND...wait for it...it doesn't require anything to be grown or subsidized for it to be used. The answer for a cleaner fuel source is right here, we just ignore it.

[sx moneypit]

[Eikon]

CNG is better than ethanol and petro in every way. AND...wait for it...it doesn't require anything to be grown or subsidized for it to be used. The answer for a cleaner fuel source is right here, we just ignore it.

and the US has more natural gas than we know what to do with. Talk about changing the playing field.. we want to be less dependent on foreign oil.. how about we just use our own resources instead...

[Ace2cool]

We also have the largest untapped deposits of crude oil. We are by far the most wasteful country on the planet.

[IanS]

I hate to say it Greg, but you put too much faith in "the free market"

Im not saying congress is any better, they are exactly the same. The whole system is run by sharks. Those people at the top of "the free market" have more money then most of us can even begin to imagine. They use this capitol to control the market to thier liking. Congress is trying to do the same thing, except they use regulation, as apposed to threats, fear, and money. Which one do you think is more powerful? I am not saying every person does this, but too many of them do. Both companies and the super rich a like can afford to work the system much harder then you or I. Congress has attempted, and failed, over the years to regulate much of the behavior that allows them to get filthy rich, while many people struggle just to live comfortably.

Much of the regulations that are put in place are neutered of thier ability to really do what they were designed too because those people at the top are the only one capable of paying a lobbyist to put pressure on people in govournment. We could write letters, and send emails all day, but having an increadibly suave and convincing person in your face is far more convincing.

The whole system is broken and it sickens me.

The insurance industry, the healthcare industry, the oil industry, the real estate industry, have all made a small number of people filthy stinking rich by manipulating prices, scaring people into submission, and effectively selling our own money back to us minus interest. Its bulls**t pure and simple.

Ethanol was a good idea. It has potential, it just needs to be streamlined. There are more effective ways of making it, while using something other then a food crop, it just needs to develop.

Ethanol is not the answer, but niether are hybrids, CNG, plug in electrics, or Hydrogen fuel cells. The answer is a collection of the above.

[Jesda]

Ethanol itself isn't a bad idea, but using artificial mechanisms to prop it up does no one any good. In this way, it primarily benefits corporate farms and the politicians who feed them while doing little or nothing to benefit society.

[WDRacing]

Ethanol is not the answer, but niether are hybrids, CNG, plug in electrics, or Hydrogen fuel cells. The answer is a collection of the above.

I guess it depends on what the question is. CNG burns clean, is readily available and can be retrofitted to any internal combustion engine with relative ease.

The money wasted on ethanol subsidies could have built an entire infrastructure to support CNG.

So, if the question is;

What's the most readily available clean energy source we have right here in America? The answer is CNG.

What's the best clean fuel for power plants available right now? The answer is CNG.

How could we have an immediate impact on greenhouse emissions? The answer is CNG.

How do we become energy independent? CNG

We should be pursuing our best options first. We should be maximizing our current capabilities before we try to invent new ones. We need to prioritize how we spend our money and make the most use of it. Instead we spend money all willy nilly with no regard to attainable goals, nor clear priorities and we do it with no thoughts about our ever increasing national debt.

[AZhitman]

I can say from experience that CNG, at least in its current state of readiness as a fuel source, sucks for the type of driving that Americans do.

Things may have changed in the past few years, but when I was managing our fleet here, I was DICTATED to purchase a bulk of CNG-powered Contours and Cavaliers for state use. Those things were a joke, with pathetic CNG range, no power, and increased weight... Plus, they cost a $6-8K premium over a comparable gas car.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Way to waste money, government stooge.

Ian, I don't share your assessment of the free market, obviously. It's worked in America from 1776 to present, and while it's not perfect, at least the consumers retain some measure of influence (where it belongs).

Being mandated to buy a certain car, a certain fuel, a certain product, or a certain insurance is patently un-American, and I confront it as no less a threat than a person holding a gun to my head. Those who support such dictatorial schemes would be wise to stay just out of kicking range.

[WDRacing]

I can say from experience that CNG, at least in its current state of readiness as a fuel source, sucks for the type of driving that Americans do.

Things may have changed in the past few years, but when I was managing our fleet here, I was DICTATED to purchase a bulk of CNG-powered Contours and Cavaliers for state use. Those things were a joke, with pathetic CNG range, no power, and increased weight... Plus, they cost a $6-8K premium over a comparable gas car.

It depends on what the goals are Greg. Do we want to get away from Petro? Do we want clean burning vehicles? If the answer is yes, then you can overcome all the negatives you listed by designing an engine to run specifically on CNG. You can't take a standard Cavalier, install CNG injection and expect it to perform. If that same vehicle/motor had a 13:1 compression ratio or some sort of forced induction you'd be able to utilize all the benefits of CNG. Unless you're taking full advantage of the anti-knock threshold of the fuel, you're just wasting available energy.

All of these things can be overcome or could have been overcome already if we were spending money in the right places. We lack clear goals and as a result aren't able to set reasonable priorities.

[AZhitman]

you can overcome all the negatives you listed by designing an engine to run specifically on CNG. You can't take a standard Cavalier, install CNG injection and expect it to perform. If that same vehicle/motor had a 13:1 compression ratio or some sort of forced induction you'd be able to utilize all the benefits of CNG. Unless you're taking full advantage of the anti-knock threshold of the fuel, you're just wasting available energy.

Gotcha. Thanks for that.

We lack clear goals and as a result aren't able to set reasonable priorities.

When the country is led by the equivalent of a box full of three-headed ADHD kittens on crack, it's no wonder.

They flit about from this to that and back to this, with no regard for intellectually UNDERSTANDING what they're foisting on the public.

There's also no regard for the hypocrisy of supporting one measure that directly opposed a previously-supported measure. You can't be for "smaller government" and believe that Washington can (or should) spearhead the move from reliance on foreign oil.

Kick the doors open, tear down the restrictions (except those that directly enhance safety), get the hell out of the way, and let the guys with big dreams, big brains, and big money to invest do great things.

More X-prize. Less meddling old men.

[WDRacing]

Amen brother!

[MinisterofDOOM]

We lack clear goals and as a result aren't able to set reasonable priorities.

THIS is the real problem. It's a result of the broken reactive mindset that most people have. They see a problem and then they race to do ANYTHING IMAGINABLE in reaction to it. Rather than being proactive or analytical and putting forth the effort to determine the most effective solution, they just throw money at everything until the problem either goes away, the solution fails, or people forget that they cared about whatever might have been the issue.

[hannibal]

Natural gas is the future. Now that we've learned to pull gas out of rocks, we have access to plenty of it.

The next big technology in gas is methane hydrate. Basically a methane molecule surrounding by ice. It's found in shallower parts of oceans around the world and reserves are estimated to be larger than oil and coal combined. And because its under pressure and cold, the methane inside is VERY dense. I read that 1 cu ft of methane hydrate is equivalent to 150 cu ft of gas. We've been trying for years to harvest this stuff years and a Japanese company was recently successful. Seems very promising..

[Ace2cool]

We are getting a CNG station right beside the corporate office of where I work in Alabama. First one I've ever seen.

[Looneybomber]

We are getting a CNG station right beside the corporate office of where I work in Alabama. First one I've ever seen.

We will be getting some CNG trucks soon and are on track to run each of them 250k miles/yr. There will be some CNG stations constructed here and in neighboring states in the not too distant future, so the infrastructure is finally getting in place. For commercial vehicles (think semi-trucks), in about a years time, drivers could start making long hauls in certain parts of the country no problem. For a personal vehicle, it's gonna be a long while till CNG gets noticed.

[IanS]

Ian, I don't share your assessment of the free market, obviously. It's worked in America from 1776 to present, and while it's not perfect, at least the consumers retain some measure of influence (where it belongs).

Being mandated to buy a certain car, a certain fuel, a certain product, or a certain insurance is patently un-American, and I confront it as no less a threat than a person holding a gun to my head. Those who support such dictatorial schemes would be wise to stay just out of kicking range.

I hasn't worked since the 1980s. The free market is dead, those with power have just gotten better at hiding what they are doing, so people feel less manipulated. The majority of the money in this country is held by a select few, and they are intent on keeping it. The American dream of going from rags to riches is largly dead.

You buy the cars that they tell you won't wreck the planet, you pay for the health insurance that they tell you you need to have, you buy the fuel that they tell you is as cheap as they can make it...... Its not you or I who will choose CNG or Ethanol, its those with the money to build the infrastructure. He who has the most power and money will push on us whatever benifits them most.

The rich are getting richer and the poor poorer. We've nearly come full circle back to the Middle Ages.

[WDRacing]

You're describing life in general and blaming it on the free market. I hate to break it to ya, but the majority of wealth has and always will be held by a small percentage of people. This is and will always be the way of things. However, just because a small percentage have most of the wealth DOES NOT mean that they are all evil. It doesn't mean they're manipulating anything. I fully understand that the people with the most money can sway things, but it's not some end of the world shenanigans like you're making it out to be. Having the majority of wealth owned by a small percentage of people doesn't prevent you or anyone else from prospering.

If you want to be successful, go out and make yourself successful. People that want to find work, find it. People that want to become successful, do so. They make smart choices and invest wisely. People are fully accountable for their own status.

The American Dream is alive and well for those that wish to grab a hold of it.

It's not the free market telling us which ins to buy or what cars to buy, it's Gov regulation.

If the free market is dead, how would you replace it?

Dark Ages? Dude...hardly.

Poor people make poor choices.

[IanS]

You're describing life in general and blaming it on the free market. I hate to break it to ya, but the majority of wealth has and always will be held by a small percentage of people. This is and will always be the way of things. However, just because a small percentage have most of the wealth DOES NOT mean that they are all evil. It doesn't mean they're manipulating anything. I fully understand that the people with the most money can sway things, but it's not some end of the world shenanigans like you're making it out to be. Having the majority of wealth owned by a small percentage of people doesn't prevent you or anyone else from prospering.

If you want to be successful, go out and make yourself successful. People that want to find work, find it. People that want to become successful, do so. They make smart choices and invest wisely. People are fully accountable for their own status.

The American Dream is alive and well for those that wish to grab a hold of it.

It's not the free market telling us which ins to buy or what cars to buy, it's Gov regulation.

If the free market is dead, how would you replace it?

Dark Ages? Dude...hardly.

Poor people make poor choices.

You are absolutely right, and 100% wrong. Those on the right have been crying foul and claiming the gov is attempting to redistribute the wealth. The problem is, redistribution is happening and has been since the 1980. Every year a higher % of the liquid assets in this country ends up in a very small, very greedy portion of the population.

I live very comfortably, but am far from rich. I have no problem with where I am, and I have worked my a** off to be here. The problem is, going any further, is becoming more and more unattainable for most people. Unless you are a celebrity, the only way you are getting rich, is by being rich. A select few do make it, but the majority start out with money, and use it to make more. Those at the bottom have so little they can barely afford to eat because medical costs, transportation costs, living costs have skyrocketed in recent years, while salaries have been stagnent, if not fallen.

People under extreme pressure make poor choices, people with little education make poor choices, people stuggling to find enough food to live make poor choices. What do all these have in common? They are things the effect those with little money far more then anyone else. If you can't afford to move out of a poor area, is it your choice that you get robbed 3 times a year? Is it your choice that the only school you can afford to send your children to is more a half assed teen daycar then an educational instutution? Too many people are trapped by this "free market"

When someone is trapped, they are liable to do just about anything.

Somday soon I will be sending a daugher off into this world, and no matter how hard I try I cannot protect her from these people. All I can do is try to teach her to protect herself, but I really shouldn't have to. But I digress. So I will end this discussion here, unless Greg wants to split this to a whole new thread.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

Yeah, I actually put MORE ethanol/methanol in the tanks of some of my cars... but I can adjust for it. It helps to keep things clean in there.