The Ethanol Situation - How the US Screwed Up

[WDRacing]

Ian, you don't have to reply if you don't want to. But I'm going to add a few more cents to this discussion.

Poverty isn't going to stop until poor people stop having children. Period. There is no other way it will end. That's an ugly statement, but I'm a realist. There will always be poverty because poverty perpetuates itself. The free market doesn't make people have babies they can't afford. It doesn't make children grow up without fathers. It doesn't make children graduate HS without being able to read.

The free market isn't the cause of poverty and it's not the answer either. The free market simply is.

If you have an issue with our tax system, then I'll agree. But we can have both a functional free market and a better tax system. But even with tax reform and a free market, you'll still have poverty. You simply can't stop poverty unless you restrict it's growth.

[Ace2cool]

One thing Alabama is doing, (and I'm not 100% sure I agree with) is giving tax subsidies to people wanting to send their kids to private school but can't afford it. I kinda view it as giving the kids a better chance in life, but at the same time, doesn't that seem unfair to the people paying full price out of their pockets to send their kids to the very same school?

[float_6969]

My $.02

The government sucks. It COULD work, but greed broke it.
Term limits for congress, not just the president, should have been instituted at the onset.
Political positions shouldn't pay. Volunteer basis only. Term limits still apply.
Barring invasion from a foreign country, Congress can't spend more money than it has.

This would fix A LOT of issues. I have more ideas, but that's a whole different thread.

Regarding ethanol. It's a great fuel. For the way american's tend to drive, it meets our needs better than CNG (with current technologies). The current issue with both of these fuels has already been touched on; building engines with dual-fuel capabilities. In every case that I'm aware of, a gasoline engine has been "retrofitted" to run on these other fuels. You can't do this an expect good results. There is more data out there then I can even begin to share, but the fact of the matter is that if you build an engine to run on ethanol, and ethanol only, it will make the same power, with the same fuel economy, with lower emissions than the same gasoline engine. The same holds true for CNG.

One of the main reasons this country is gasoline dependent is because of the coveted "free market". Big oil came in, with lots of capitol, and set up gasoline stations next to all of the alcohol stations and sold gasoline AT A LOSS until the alcohol stations were driven out of business. Then they raised the prices back up and we've been running on gasoline ever since. And if you don't think that's a part of the free market, take an economics class, because that is the biggest "con" to the free market. Now don't get me wrong. I don't think the government should tell me I can't buy a gun, or force me to have insurance, etc., but I DO think they should prevent monopolies (which arise from free markets). That's part of the purpose of the government is to prevent situations like the aforementioned from happening. Unfortunately, big oil was already in congresses pocket by then and nothing was done to prevent the gasoline monopoly, and we've been sucking their teats ever since.

Here is the nice thing about CNG. It's right now. No waiting, no hope for better technology, no waiting for infrastructure, nothing. Any auto manufacturer today could easily engineer an engine to be optimized for CNG, with gasoline as a "limp home" fuel source (actually, it would probably start on gasoline as CNG & Ethanol aren't great for starting in cold climates). As for infrastructure, I live in a pretty rural state. Most of our state has access to natural gas. Not all of the homes do, but any place that has a gas station, has a natural gas line run to it. This holds true for most of the country. If you have a natural gas line to your home, like I do, then it's as simple as having a natural gas pump/liquifier installed at your home to match your vehicle. This same device, or something similar, could be installed at most gas stations. That's it.

Ethanol is easier because the tanks, pump, semi-trucks, etc, are already in place to transport it. BUT THE ENGINE HAS TO BE DESIGNED TO RUN IT AS A PRIMARY FUEL AND USE GASOLINE AS A SECONDARY FUEL!!!. The primary issue with ethanol right now is that it's coming from food sources. When we've developed the ability to cheaply and easily break down plant cells into starches, getting fuel could be as simple as mowing the yard. Ethanol is a long term resolution because unlike CNG, it's not a petroleum product.

Of course both of these can and should be combined with hybrid/plug in technologies, etc. But the fact of the matter is the reason we're not there is because we don't push our government enough. We don't hold them accountable. And we haven't made them fix the mess they made.

Lets all stop pointing the fingers at other people and take responsibility for what we're responsible for. I'll be the first to admit I don't call/email my local representative's NEARLY as much as I should. So who can I really b**** at when he/she doesn't do what I want?

[AZhitman]

Lets all stop pointing the fingers at other people and take responsibility for what we're responsible for.

THIS.

I'll use myself as an example. Grew up dirt-poor. Learned the value of never taking something for nothing, always making myself invaluable / indispensable to my employer, and learned early on that there's NO shame in being frugal and foregoing immediate gratification.

I saw my Dad work way too hard for way too many years - and succeed - to ever rely on anyone, especially not the morons in Washington, for anything. He worked a predominantly union job for 3 decades and never joined (even though it might have benefitted him in the long run).

One fortunate opportunity came my way, and it meant putting everything on the line - Do or die. Accepted the challenge, went out on a limb, and swore I'd make something happen. 11 years later, I have a comfortable life... I'm still a cheapa$$, and I still think debt is a bigger threat to the American Way than crime, terrorism, or anything else.

Ian, I agree with SOME of what you say. But those "bad choices" shouldn't be without consequence. If you're poor, yet you still smoke / drink / have sex / have cable TV and designer clothes, my sympathy is NIL. NONE.

I learned that relying on a union, the government, or a boss was NO way to get ahead in life. Build a better mousetrap, and you don't need to have money to make money (although it certainly helps). You have to wake up every morning, look in the mirror, and say, "I'm unemployed - What can I do today to fix that?" You have to skip fun. You can't watch TV. You can't drink, smoke, goof off, or anything else.

THEN, when the small successes come, you parlay them into larger successes. You can't rest on your laurels.

I hear kids talking about "hustle". B****, please. These kids wouldn't know "hustle" if it hit them in the head with a fencepost. "Hustle" means 3-4 hours of sleep a night. It means working 2 or 3 jobs. It means cutting out EVERY distraction and focusing on a goal. It means giving up everything that DOES NOT bring you closer to that goal, even if it hurts.

While I think the gas / CNG debate has merit, this is where we are now. No chance of going back decades to the time when one "challenged" the other. Look at the hybrid market - Build a car that does the job, and does it well. Price it attractively. Overbuild it. LOSE MONEY if you have to. Market the living piss out of it, and make it such an attractive choice that consumers will have to give up something to get the alternative. Toyota did this brilliantly with the Prius, and they're reaping the benefits of it now.

No one forces people to buy them. There's no real meaningful incentives to buy one, nor should there be. If you want to save money and buy less gas, there ya go.

I will NEVER accept the notion that some out-of-touch geriatric White guy who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth knows what's best for me or my family. EVER. Win, lose, or draw, I call the shots. And when someone threatens my freedom to do so, there's gonna be a fight. If I'm wrong, I bear the consequences. If I'm right, I reap the benefits. No safety net - but the flip side is: no credit to anyone else.

The free market still works. I still believe in the power of Americans to make wise choices - but ONLY if the consequences of choosing unwisely remain natural and undiluted.

Unfortunately, as it stands now, one can do a whole lot of stupid, and never feel the sting. We're creating generations of mindless, entitled dimwits, sitting in their smelly cages and waiting for the next food pellet - and it scares the hell out of me.

[NolimitZ32]

We're creating generations of mindless, entitled dimwits, sitting in their smelly cages and waiting for the next food pellet - and it scares the hell out of me.

This isn't sig worthy, it's worthy of being put on an enormous banner and hung on every capitol building of every state and every mayoral office of every city and especially every school and daycare in the US.

[WDRacing]

My $.02

The government sucks. It COULD work, but greed broke it.
Term limits for congress, not just the president, should have been instituted at the onset.
Political positions shouldn't pay. Volunteer basis only. Term limits still apply.
Barring invasion from a foreign country, Congress can't spend more money than it has.

I don't think the government should tell me I can't buy a gun, or force me to have insurance, etc., but I DO think they should prevent monopolies (which arise from free markets). That's part of the purpose of the government is to prevent situations like the aforementioned from happening.

(actually, it would probably start on gasoline as CNG & Ethanol aren't great for starting in cold climates).

Lets all stop pointing the fingers at other people and take responsibility for what we're responsible for. I'll be the first to admit I don't call/email my local representative's NEARLY as much as I should. So who can I really b**** at when he/she doesn't do what I want?

I only disagree with one part of that, but I wanted to give you a couple of

Our Gov would work great if it started by doing the job it was created to do first. Do the basics of your job and do them well. Always knock out your priorities first. That's the general basis for all things successful, from big business to Spec Ops kill missions. Unfortunately, our Gov has become too involved and to over reaching. Many of the things it does should be handled at the state level. It's simply too big to function efficiently and it utterly lacks any sort of real oversight.

The worst part, absolutely no accountability.

The part I disagreed with was, now correct me if I'm wrong, CNG and LP actually start easier than gasoline in almost all situations.

[sx moneypit]

We're creating generations of mindless, entitled dimwits, sitting in their smelly cages and waiting for the next food pellet - and it scares the hell out of me.

This isn't sig worthy, it's worthy of being put on an enormous banner and hung on every capitol building of every state and every mayoral office of every city and especially every school and daycare in the US.

[Eikon]

Here's an article today from Autoblog that goes back to the CNG topic from the other day:

Thanks to the precipitous drop in prices for compressed natural gas (CNG) and liquid propane (LPG), fleets can save a fortune by switching over to these fuels. OEMs such as Freightliner and Thomas Built Bus have jumped into the market. International now offers the Transtar Class 8 semi (above) that runs on CNG. A cost calculator on the truck maker's website shows that a fleet can save well over $150,000 in fuel costs over the six-year life of a truck. For fleets that run their per-mile operating costs to the penny, this is a financial windfall.

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/03/21/us-t ... #continued

[AZhitman]

^ ...and THAT is free-market.

The CEOs of those companies spearhead a change, which may or may not trickle down... maybe next to local 10-wheelers and box trucks, maybe UPS and FedEx, maybe the USPS, and on down to Pete's Plumbing with their 4-truck fleet...

The point is, there's no pinhead bureaucrat making the call - The man or woman who bears all the risk is making the decision, based on their best estimation of financial benefits.

[WDRacing]

The hardest part about converting a personal car over is all of the red tape BS, depending on the state obviously. I'd love to convert my S14 to CNG and run metric tons of boost!

[PapaSmurf2k3]

I wonder why Hank Hill never ran his truck on propane and propane accessories...

[WDRacing]

Don't you bad mouth Hank!

[float_6969]

The part I disagreed with was, now correct me if I'm wrong, CNG and LP actually start easier than gasoline in almost all situations.

I'm sure LP does as it has one of the widest flammability limits of any common fuel. NG is considered the "safer" of the two fuels in the hearth (fireplaces, stoves, etc) industry as it's harder to initiate combustion with (this is the exact same aspect that makes it an ideal high performance fuel). I could see that the the NG being in a gaseous state as opposed to the mostly micro-droplet state of gasoline may offset this and make it easier to ignite though. I don't have first hand knowledge though, and so I'm regurgitating my "book learning", which in my life means a lot less than my experiences teach me.