Something important from Wisconsin that isn't Aaron Rodgers

[IBCoupe]

I take your point, but I'd also like to point out that it's not just pay, it's benefits that are combined. Seems like your point is the same, but I wanted to make sure we're clear on that.

Maybe you think it's fine for public employees to be compensated less than their private counterparts. Maybe you think they should be compensated even less than they are now. My point is simply that we should at least be able to get past the lie that they're compensated more.

[AZhitman]

In some areas, they ARE compensated more, so there's no "LIE". That's emotionally-charged wording and we both know it.

What's a fuel loader make in the military? What's a fuel loader make in the private sector? I'll take the military gig, thanks.
What's the Director of GAO make? What's the Exec Dir of Ernst & Young make? Yeah, I'll take the private sector slot.
What's my counterpart over at Cigna make? More than DOUBLE my salary. Hmmm.

Actually, "areas" isn't descriptive enough. I mean "levels". Have you looked at Federal employee pay grades, esp the upper 10% and bottom 10%? Clobbering private sector.

Yes, benefits too. A quick napkin calculation tells me I'd bring home another $10-12K per annum under the WI union plan (looking @ my contribution to benefits costs).

I don't think we're in disagreement overall, tho.

I think this whole thing is a clear indicator that organized groups of workers holding a corporation hostage, when redundant protections are already in place, are a thing of the past.

[96Qowner]

And another thing, you made a distinction between janitors and teachers, as to hint toward the teachers being more important. Thats the problem with leftist thought, you employ too much emotion in valuating things. Labor should be labor, and treated equally, not in compensation value, but in societal worth value. Just because someone is a teacher, does not elevate the "importance" of their job, thereby giving them any special considerations. Im not saying this mess is trying to do that, Im just pointing it out as a possible conception you may have in differntiating the 2 positions in your posts.

A job is worth whatever the qualified guy standing behind you is willing to work for. That's how unions are able to get better wages and benefits. They throw up barriers to the guy behind you, so he's unable to devalue your job. But it's still only worth what the qualified guy behind you is willing to work for.

I'm not a fan of unions. I think the days when they were a godsend to the American worker are long gone. Now they're a hired gun held to the head of the very business that supports the worker. They've repeatedly shown their willingness to destroy their own companies. We don't need them destroying our States and cities.

[AZhitman]

Yup.

I don't need those morons lobbying for me. I walk past them every day in our lobby. They sit there with their stickers and lanyards and shiny trinkets to catch the eye of the lazy mouthbreathers who want free stuff, and try to "sign people up" with scare tactics and "worst-case scenarios".

Know why I don't need them? Because I have made myself more valuable to my employer than my paycheck - I'm a bargain. They can't replace me for what I bring to the table. Sometimes it's a challenge - if the boss doesn't *like* me, I've gotta do a little more to overcome that. If the work isn't equitably distributed, I remind myself that "fair" is for the weak and I dig in and get it done. I give NO ONE an opportunity to question my credibility or my integrity. I keep my side of the street clean, and I bring value to the department. I don't spend anything out of the budget, I don't ask for day-timers or a new chair or waste paper. I lead by example.

So, what's a union gonna do for me? We're a right-to-work state. I don't need someone fighting my battles, because I don't walk in with a chip on my shoulder and automatically assume that "The Man" is bad / evil / wrong. "The Man" pays my bills, and all he asks is that I do my job.

[audtatious]

Oh, stop talking sense.

Long-term union members probably have a hard time in the private sector because they are expected to do their job instead of wasting time as a means to have more people employed.

[bigbadberry3]

Oh, stop talking sense.

Long-term union members probably have a hard time in the private sector because they are expected to do their job instead of wasting time as a means to have more people employed.

Stop taking the mentality that unions = lazy people.

[audtatious]

Only some....at least in the private sector those people used to be easily terminated....if they are white.

lol

[Cold_Zero]

Stop taking the mentality that unions = lazy people.

Especially since the majority of my family are teachers and union members. Only my brother in law and I are corporate types. My teacher family members are highly education, work late hours to get their work done, work extra hours running afterschool programs and care very deeply for their students. You can't necessarily take the perception of a UAW worker's work ethic and apply it the members of the Teamsters, NEA or AFSCCE or ALPA.
bud

[audtatious]

You guys seriously think I believe everyone in a union is lazy?

[Cold_Zero]

s***, there are people in the corporate world that are seriously lazy.

In this country the majority of non union members have a perception that union works are either:
Lazy
Money grubbing


Funny, my aunt who didnt work for her wealth (got it in a divorce) was harping on MPS school teachers and how much money they make. Seems a bit weird.

[stebo0728]

I dont consider union workers lazy, but they do have a problem, but it stems from the union leaders, encouraging workers to work less as to lower employer expectations, and as aud says, create a need for more jobs when work load increases. Many workers start out bucking and kicking, but the union ruins their work ethic.

Not to mention, union members can only negotiate for things by forming a brutal mob and grabbing pitchforks, and holding services ransom for weeks at a time. Its not being lazy, its being evil.

[stebo0728]

And no insult intended to educators, but teachers unions are the worst unions hands down. They hold children and education at ransom for the betterment of the teachers. There needs to be a third party involved in teacher union negotiations that represent the child. Right now there is just a voice for the employer, and for the employee, which is typically all you need in labor negotiations, but education is a bit different in that we throw our children in the middle with no one considering their best interest.

[AppleBonker]

Generalizing is fun!!!

[stebo0728]

Generalizing is all you CAN do, do you want to sit and list every exception one at a time? Or would you rather speak to the general average status?

[AppleBonker]

Or would you rather speak to the general average status?

How are you determining what is "average" or "standard"?

[Cold_Zero]

And no insult intended to educators, but teachers unions are the worst unions hands down. They hold children and education at ransom for the betterment of the teachers.

How so? Because they have too much perceived power? I am sure you are confusing the national (affiliated) chapter, like the NEA with the local union ISTA (in Indiana).
The way I see it, bad parents (and by virtue bad students) and the individual State hold Public Education hostage. At least in our state, it is the State the sets the curriculum, standards and set funding. The teachers unions are a small factor. Please remember that in all states, Public Education is predominately funded and run by the state government.

There needs to be a third party involved in teacher union negotiations that represent the child. Right now there is just a voice for the employer, and for the employee, which is typically all you need in labor negotiations, but education is a bit different in that we throw our children in the middle with no one considering their best interest.

This third party is called the parent. I am sorry there are a lot of parents that are MIA in respects to their children’s education and society as a whole treats public education as one big ‘Day Care.’ Maybe the Republican Party and conservatives should start talking about holding parents and children accountable for the failure of kids. They won’t because it is a political landmine. So we just recess back to our polemic stances and the Republicans/conservatives attack teacher unions while the Democrats/liberals attack Charter Schools, Vouchers and No Child Left Behind.

[stebo0728]

I agree with the parental role, but even so, you cant consider the parent to be the third party. They have little to no power at all in the negotiations.

[Cold_Zero]

I agree with the parental role, but even so, you cant consider the parent to be the third party. They have little to no power at all in the negotiations.

They do have a lot of power, which is very rarely ever used.

Matt,
Lazy and Money grubbing... I forgot to add 'Elite' Seems that Your Man Mitch seems to want to drive a wedge by calling names.
http://www.wthr.com/story/14134059/indi ... ions-elite

[IBCoupe]

What's a fuel loader make in the military? What's a fuel loader make in the private sector? I'll take the military gig, thanks.

I'm sorry. The military's unionized? Wisconsin has a military? This is all news to me. Know fuel loaders in the private sector that are also trained and expected to fire weapons in combat?

What's the Director of GAO make? What's the Exec Dir of Ernst & Young make? Yeah, I'll take the private sector slot.
What's my counterpart over at Cigna make? More than DOUBLE my salary. Hmmm.

Actually, "areas" isn't descriptive enough. I mean "levels". Have you looked at Federal employee pay grades, esp the upper 10% and bottom 10%? Clobbering private sector.

Even after you account for education and experience? Data plz.

Yes, benefits too. A quick napkin calculation tells me I'd bring home another $10-12K per annum under the WI union plan (looking @ my contribution to benefits costs).

I don't think we're in disagreement overall, tho.

I think this whole thing is a clear indicator that organized groups of workers holding a corporation hostage, when redundant protections are already in place, are a thing of the past.

I don't think it is. The unions have said they're willing to make the concessions. A Republican has proposed a compromise that would suspend collective bargaining for two years, and the unions agreed to that. The Governor isn't budging. This is a clear indication that some people just won't miss the opportunity to make an opportunity out of a crisis.

[IBCoupe]

I dont consider union workers lazy, but they do have a problem, but it stems from the union leaders, encouraging workers to work less as to lower employer expectations, and as aud says, create a need for more jobs when work load increases. Many workers start out bucking and kicking, but the union ruins their work ethic.

Not to mention, union members can only negotiate for things by forming a brutal mob and grabbing pitchforks, and holding services ransom for weeks at a time. Its not being lazy, its being evil.

I've worked in a union now for coming up on 2.5 years, and I've never once encountered that attitude from any union rep. I've never been instructed to do less work, and when I do more work, my supervisors find ways to reward me - I'm given new responsibilities, and I just got a $0.25/hr raise to go with the new responsibilities.

Stebo, from where do you draw your perception of unions? Seems like you and Greg are opposed to unions in principle, but aren't really offering any statistics (let alone anecdotes) to support your opposition. You just don't like the concept.

[AZhitman]

What's a fuel loader make in the military? What's a fuel loader make in the private sector? I'll take the military gig, thanks.

I'm sorry. The military's unionized? Wisconsin has a military? This is all news to me.

Rather than being so quick to spout off, how about keeping it in the context that YOU YOURSELF established:

public employees or private employees get paid more

Public and private. Not union vs non-union. I was simply responding to your example.

Even after you account for education and experience? Data plz.

No, you. And then maybe you can control for race, gender, appearance, "who they know", who they've slept with, and all the shady backroom deals that influence salary as well. Yes, "data plz" indeed.

[AZhitman]

I've never been instructed to do less work, and when I do more work, my supervisors find ways to reward me - I'm given new responsibilities, and I just got a $0.25/hr raise to go with the new responsibilities.

Ever stop to think that maybe you're underperforming to begin with?

I mean, that extra $4 a day ($50 a month after taxes) had to give you a chubby...

[heliochrome85]

I mean, that extra $4 a day ($50 a month after taxes) had to give you a chubby...

his nose got bigger?

[audtatious]

I agree with the parental role, but even so, you cant consider the parent to be the third party. They have little to no power at all in the negotiations.

They do have a lot of power, which is very rarely ever used.

Matt,
Lazy and Money grubbing... I forgot to add 'Elite' Seems that Your Man Mitch seems to want to drive a wedge by calling names.
http://www.wthr.com/story/14134059/indi ... ions-elite

That's horrible.

[audtatious]

Anyway, "back in my youth" I worked one job that was union. It was a minimum wage job working in the seafood and produce department of a Krogers. After a couple of weeks I was told I should join the union. I declined as I needed every penny I could get. Within a week I was fired for what one of the union employees did.

So, my personal experience with unions are negative. I admit it does not mean that is the norm as it was just one instance.

[AZhitman]

I mean, that extra $4 a day ($50 a month after taxes) had to give you a chubby...

his nose got bigger?

Why you wanna be bustin' on my favorite heeb?

[AZhitman]

So, my personal experience with unions are negative. I admit it does not mean that is the norm as it was just one instance.

I will echo this.

Their representatives show up at personnel hearings and try to influence the proceedings... I make sure my case is watertight, respond to their asinine questions, clobber them with statute, code, policy and administrative rule, and watch them realize they've backed the wrong horse.

WHO defends someone JUST because they're your "friend"? I mean, no preponderance of the facts, no knowledge or care of the CHARACTER of their members... no concern as to whether they're making the union look bad, no consideration for whether they're a violator or not... Nothing. Just come in, pay your dues, and we'll be there when you need us. Screw that. I don't have to BUY my friends. I EARN them.

I'm SO tempted to ask them on the way out: "So, will you guys come stick up for me if I ever get in trouble? Or do I have to pay for that?"

[bigbadberry3]

So, my personal experience with unions are negative. I admit it does not mean that is the norm as it was just one instance.

WHO defends someone JUST because they're your "friend"? I mean, no preponderance of the facts, no knowledge or care of the CHARACTER of their members... no concern as to whether they're making the union look bad, no consideration for whether they're a violator or not... Nothing. Just come in, pay your dues, and we'll be there when you need us.

Lawyers....

[AZhitman]

Bingo.

Ever hear of a lawyer's union? Yeah. Me neither.

The people that come to my hearings are, in general, ill-informed, unqualified, busybody ADVOCATES. And I've never been deterred by an "advoocate". That's kinda right up there with "Community Organizer", lol....

[IBCoupe]

Rather than being so quick to spout off, how about keeping it in the context that YOU YOURSELF established:

public employees or private employees get paid more

Public and private. Not union vs non-union. I was simply responding to your example.

And you chose the military, whose pay also includes housing, food, and a requirement that you shoot at people when ordered? How well are private sector fuel-loaders/soldiers paid?

Go ahead and keep it in the context that I established. Compare apples to apples.

No, you. And then maybe you can control for race, gender, appearance, "who they know", who they've slept with, and all the shady backroom deals that influence salary as well. Yes, "data plz" indeed.

I've provided multiple links and quotations on the last page, Greg. Go ahead and get them. Your turn to back up YOUR claim.