Something important from Wisconsin that isn't Aaron Rodgers

[IBCoupe]

No, I have not gone through the NYC court system and you know I'm not stating that public employees should not have due process. Are you saying that public employees should have more rights than I simply because they work for the Gov?

No, I'm saying they have the same rights as you do with relation to the government. The government just happens to be their employer, too.

EDIT: I don't believe all public employees everywhere have due process rights when it comes to termination, but I don't know for sure. The professor in my Labor Law class has scheduled an impromptu discussion on the subject for next class (Thursday), so I'll let you know if any information of value comes out of that.

[IBCoupe]

It varies from union to union. If I'm not mistaken that is also part of the change being forwarded in WI. To give the contribution option to union members.

As far as I've heard, the only "option" being offered to union members is whether or not to have your dues automatically deducted from your paycheck. 'Cause that's something that would go a long way towards solving Wisconsin's deficit.

The blatant politics of this proposed budget would be humorous if they didn't have such a strong chance of success.

[Cold_Zero]

Why should firing a person be easy? Just cause it's easier to when you work private sector?

Because school administrators do not want to do the leg work to dismiss a teacher. My father (a union rep) has worked with administrators that were firing teachers. When the administration did their due diligence, had just cause and did their work, the union sanctioned that dismissal.

Also, some corporations prefer to sever workers as to avoid unemployment and lawsuits.

[Cold_Zero]

Tenure just makes you prove those things in order to be fired.

Actually, it's more than that.

I fire people for a living, I'd know. Unfortunately, it also bogs down the system and ties up progress, even when the person being fired is CLEARLY in the wrong. They still get paid during the termination proceedings, appeals, and hearings.

Wrongful termination is SO rare, it's almost laughable when someone alleges it. The attorneys have made us ALL fear it - we do our homework nowadays.

In my wife's school corporation, at the beginning of each school year they let go about 150 teachers because they cannot anticipate what attendance will be like at the beginning of the school year (in Indiana the number of teachers you are allowed to hire come from your state funding [passed down from local taxes] is linked from student attendance). Tenure keeps my wife, who has been teaching for years, from being let go and re-hired like a yoyo. It also gives her priority if she has to be moved to another school because of relocation (basically not enough kids at her school and too many at another.)

I am sorry, I see through this mess. It is just an attempt of the Republicans to drive down union wages and the amount of union dues being paid because they are upset that union dues are being spent against their campaigns. The Indiana (I bring up Indiana because now it is in the national news) legislation has verbiage that would make it illegal for union dues to be extracted from your paycheck (they don’t seem to care about United Way donations???) and what the dues can be spent on. Please note that in Indiana you have the right NOT to join the teachers union, two teachers in my family fit into this group. But you still receive benefits of union representation and wage/benefit negotiation from the work they perform on behalf of the teachers in the corporation. Also, collective bargaining is done at the school corporation level and not at a statewide level which may be different than Wisconsin.
Republicans seem to not get upset about the PAC and corporate money that gets spent to support their campaigns. Seems ironic they only think that the freedom of speech in regards to political spending only applies to corporations and not labor unions (if corporations are made up of people, then labor are made up of people). And believe me; I don’t tout the whole ‘corporations are evil’ mantra as I work for one.
This all has very little to do with ‘Education Reform’ and more to do with political retribution. While I can’t fully comment on the Wisconsin legislation, I can comment on the Indiana legislation because it affects my whole family. My father did note that the verbiage in the Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, Indiana and Tennessee laws are all the same which seems to indicate it was written by the Republican Party. So food for thought.

[stebo0728]

Sorry Cold, I see through it too, and its a big marker for why public unions should not have collective bargaining in the first place, looks like bargaining for wages was saved, but I say chunk that too.

Collective bargaining needs to end for Wisconsin's government union workers simply because it is collective bargaining that created the problems Governor Scott is trying to solve right now. The state didn't walk up to these workers and say "Hey! Here's an idea! We'll pay you more than you could make in the private sector! We're also going to give you incredible job security through the state civil service system. Then we're going to make sure that you don't have to contribute anything to your pensions and a pittance to your health insurance premiums? Sound good? Nope ... didn't happen that way. The unions negotiated the freebie retirement plan and "pay for your aspirin and nothing else" health care plan. So if we leave collective bargaining in place for benefits you will simply try to regain these out-of-line benefits with union action a year or two down the road.

We will leave collective bargaining in place for pay because your pay - not a free retirement or free health care - is the essence of what you're working for.

[IBCoupe]

Do they make more than they would in the private sector? The Economic Policy Institute doesn't believe so.

As protests against Gov. Scott Walker's proposed budget continue in Madison, WI, right-wing media have continued to push the misleading statistic that public employees in the state of Wisconsin make more money than their private sector counterparts. In fact, according to the Economic Policy Institute, when education and experience are factored in, public sector employees in Wisconsin earn less than workers performing comparable jobs in the private sector.

...

EPI: "Wisconsin Public Employees Earn 4.8% Less In Total Compensation Per Hour Than Comparable Full-Time Employees In Wisconsin's Private Sector." A study published February 10 by the think tank Economic Policy Institute (EPI) found that when "[c]omparisons controlling for education, experience," and other factors are taken into account, "Wisconsin public employees earn 4.8% less in total compensation per hour than comparable full-time employees in Wisconsin's private sector."

[stebo0728]

Media Matters? Are you kidding me? Why dont you just ask for an opinion piece from one of the union goons, it would probably be LESS favorable toward the unions.

Are they counting the benefits they are receiving FREE as part of their compensation package? And comparing it equally to private sector people who pay more of their own benefits?

[IBCoupe]

http://www.epi.org/latest_research/

Here you go, Stebo. MMA is the middle-man, so that's the original source. Go ahead and complain about their bias, or find a flaw in their research. I can't answer a litany of questions about research, and you know it. Find me the flaw, and post it here.

[Cold_Zero]

Sorry Cold, I see through it too, and its a big marker for why public unions should not have collective bargaining in the first place, looks like bargaining for wages was saved, but I say chunk that too.

I kind of find it ironic that the party that has blasted Obama for being a 'socialis't is now embracing socialist ideologies by bringing the teachers on to the state's rolls and then trying to leverage government power to manipulate labor lower costs in their favor. The game is really up, the Republicans are really no different than the Democrats in their tactics. They just have different bases and issues.
I find it interesting that Bortz, a Libertarian, does not recognize the freedom of association (unions) and the right of everyone (albiet personally or collectively) to bargain in their own favor. Where is Dave Ramsey when we need him? So he can tell the legilsators, "Look you were stupid, you spent too much money and stop it. It nobody's fault except your own."

[IBCoupe]

And here's the link directly to the Wisconsin study:
http://epi.3cdn.net/9e237c56096a8e4904_rkm6b9hn1.pdf

[IBCoupe]

On average, Wisconsin public sector workers are more highly educated than private sector workers; 59% of full-time Wisconsin public sector workers hold at least four-year college degrees compared with 30% of full-time private sector workers. For college-educated labor, Wisconsin state and local governments pay significantly less than private employers. The earnings differential is greatest for professional employees, lawyers, and doctors.

...

On the other hand, the public sector appears to pay more for less educated workers by setting a floor on compensation, which particularly improves the earnings of workers without high school educations when compared with similarly educated workers in the private sector, where the earnings floor has collapsed (Lee 1999).

So, I guess you could say that the State of Wisconsin pays its janitors really well.

On the other hand, public employees receive considerably less supplemental pay and vacation time, and public employers contribute significantly less to legally mandated benefits. A standard earnings equation produces what some may
consider a surprising result: full-time state and local employees are undercompensated by 8.2%. We observed, however, that public employees work fewer hours, particularly employees with bachelor’s, master’s, and professional degrees. An earnings equation controlling for work hours of full-time employees demonstrates that Wisconsin public employees earn 4.8% less than comparable private sector workers working comparable annual hours.

Simply comparing private and public employee benefits leads to an obvious but incorrect conclusion that public employees are overpaid. Table 2 in this paper shows that public employee wages on average are $33 higher than private sector wages and public sector employee total compensation is 2% higher than private sector compensation. But such a comparison is misleading because it does not compare apples to apples: specifically, it does not control for the substantially higher level of education in the public sector. When we do make the appropriate comparisons, any premium disappears and a public employment penalty emerges. Simple comparisons of private and public sector average wages are ill-informed, because the average public employee is considerably more educated than the average private sector worker.

[AppleBonker]

No high school diploma = janitor?

I'm offended!

[IBCoupe]

Okay, they pay their paper pushers at the DMV better than paper pushers at CVS would be paid.

But we're not talking teachers.

[IBCoupe]

And having spent four years as a janitor, I'm not knockin' the profession. I miss that job.

Also, I spent eighteen years of my life without a high school diploma.

[AppleBonker]

Sorry excuse for a liberal you are. I believe the proper title is "custodial engineer".

[IBCoupe]

I keep telling you guys I'm not a liberal. If it takes me referring to my past experience as "toilet-scrubber" to convince you, that's what I'll do.

[stebo0728]

Again, Media Matters typical BS.

Education level doesnt mean squat, and thats its even considered in their calculations nullifies the whole article. You're labor is worth whats its worth based on the job you do. Any paper in your background only gives an initial portion of faith to the employer. Theres just as many people who are "well educated" and not worth sh*t for the job they do as there are people who bust a** and get things done, without the first piece of paper hanging on their wall.

[stebo0728]

And another thing, you made a distinction between janitors and teachers, as to hint toward the teachers being more important. Thats the problem with leftist thought, you employ too much emotion in valuating things. Labor should be labor, and treated equally, not in compensation value, but in societal worth value. Just because someone is a teacher, does not elevate the "importance" of their job, thereby giving them any special considerations. Im not saying this mess is trying to do that, Im just pointing it out as a possible conception you may have in differntiating the 2 positions in your posts.

[audtatious]

Again, Media Matters typical BS.

Education level doesnt mean squat, and thats its even considered in their calculations nullifies the whole article. You're labor is worth whats its worth based on the job you do. Any paper in your background only gives an initial portion of faith to the employer. Theres just as many people who are "well educated" and not worth sh*t for the job they do as there are people who bust a** and get things done, without the first piece of paper hanging on their wall.

I agree with ^^^. In today's environment you can have someone take 4 years and be a history major and only have the knowledge level to serve donuts and coffee. Then you have art majors and other wonderful degrees that mean much of nothing if you can't step into an entry level-associated field.

It's not like it was in the 70's and early 80's where company's had such a need they offered jobs to people before they even graduated. Those days are over. Hell, I used to argue with HR who would only look for people with a M/B degrees instead of work experience.

[AZhitman]

However, you can't have a set of rules in place where a contract is negotiated (and BOTH parties agree) and then down the line have one decide they no longer like the terms and use force to nullify the contract. That's not how it should work. Regardless of my position on unions, this isn't the right way to go about making the desired changes.

Well, "sick-outs" and organized protests are no different. Takes two to tango.

[AZhitman]

EDIT: I don't believe all public employees everywhere have due process rights when it comes to termination, but I don't know for sure.

They don't.

Uncovered (typically supervisor-level and above) have no such protections. They serve at the will of the agency and can be dismissed w/o cause.

BTW, "covered" employees (such as myself) don't fare much better - The only difference is you have to give them a reason and go through the progressive discipline process.

Works great.

[AppleBonker]

Well, "sick-outs" and organized protests are no different. Takes two to tango.

Agreed. x50289765206. Both sides are sucking HARD at working this thing out. I've stated before that I'm not a fan of unions. I just don't like the way this governor (and now the other states following in his footsteps) is trying to strip power from them. You want to kill the union, make it so that people don't want to waste the money on union dues.

And while I can agree with the rest of you, to an extent, that education-level isn't everything, I don't see how you can argue that it shouldn't be analyzed in this discussion. Across the country it is true that those with higher-level degrees earn more than their "less-educated" alternatives. If the government employees more people with degrees, it would seem logical that the pay (on average) would be higher. Also, if you read the article, I believe it stated that the average public-sector employee has more experience (which, aud, it sounds like you are arguing is a valuable asset) thus causing them to have a higher pay. I don't know every bit about how this comparison was made (I didn't read the whole 14 page paper). But at least they are ATTEMPTING to compare apples to apples.

[stebo0728]

How about the doctors writing fake work excuses for these people protesting?

[Cold_Zero]

I only have PTO time, so who cares if I am sick, taking a personal day or vacation to go and protest.

[Cold_Zero]

News Update:
Speaker of the Indiana House Brian Bosma indicated this morning that last night the 'Right to Work' bill before the House had been killed by Republicans and that due to Indiana Law could not be ressurected for this session. Apparently, the walk out did work. 23 other bills were killed as well due to a lack of quorum.

Now to my dismay, the Democrats now have demaded that several other bills that have passed both the House and Senate and are sitting on the Governor's desk have to be pulled. I have a feeling this will blow up in their face.
bud

[Eikon]

Apparently Walker got hit by a prank caller pretending to be David Koch. It's a good 20 minute call. Very interesting to listen to. I like what Walker said and I don't think there was much there that SHOULD reflect poorly on him.

The trouble is that the Liberal press (ie. Huffers post and their mob of mentally challenged mouth-breathers) will jump all over this and blow it up into a huge deal. The stupid sheep that is the American public will take the liberal media's word for things without listening to it themselves..

What a mess!


It was really interesting to listen to.. other than the pranksters room temperature IQ and all his attempts to bait Walker. It kind of felt like I was watching West Wing.

What an interesting account of what our political system has turned into.. a bunch of games to try to work the system rather than allowing the system to work as designed.

[bigbadberry3]

I read that story but didn't listen to the tape, at least he openly admitted but did decline planting people in the protesters so I'll respect him for at least that bit of honesty. However, the media hasn't left yet so we will wait and see....

[heliochrome85]

What an interesting account of what our political system has turned into.. a bunch of games to try to work the system rather than allowing the system to work as designed.

its amusing to me that you think this is a recent development. as if this hasn't been happening since the administration of George Washington.

[IBCoupe]

Back to education levels in statistical analysis: I don't understand how you can be so dismissive.

Statistically speaking, a higher education level amounts to higher pay, right? Sure there are exceptions, but in general, it works out that way, if for no other reason than the people who go to school longer need to earn more in order to pay for it all. You can all agree with me on that one, right? Sure, it's entirely possible to have a Ph.D and still be a complete douchewaggle, but that's not how it works out on average.

So, in looking at statistics on whether public employees or private employees get paid more, why wouldn't you temper that comparison by constraining it to like-educated people? If higher-educated people earn more money than lower-educated people, and there are differing proportions of public and private sector workers of whatever education levels, why wouldn't you take that into account?

Imagine it were backwards. Imagine I'm sitting here telling you that public employees make way too little money, because private employees, on average, make 40% more. If there was a statistic saying that private employees were, on average, 40% better-educated, would it still be irrelevant in your mind?

Of course not! Because it's statistically significant. It's a matter of sampling, guys.

[AZhitman]

Comparing public employee pay to comparable private enterprise salaries is NOT the whole picture.

I could make twice as much in private industry doing the same job. However, I'd be forever beholden to the "company line". I'd work twice as hard for that extra money. I'd be expected to work more than 40 hours a week, I'd continually be stressed, and I'd always be the "fall guy" for some vindictive ex-employee with an ax to grind. Not worth it.