So AZ, what's going on over there? (AZ Immigration Bill)

[bigbadberry3]

Dear AZ,

What's going on down there with this immigration bill? Can I get some input that hasn't been filtered by the media? I'm bringing it up because one of my local congressman is throwing a hissy fit. Any information/opinion would be appreciated. (I'm sure this topic has been covered but for some reason search isn't working for me.)

Thanks,
BBB

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04 ... gislation/

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04 ... al-debate/

Slightly related:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/04/17/vi ... -rally-la/

[WDRacing]

This is something people in AZ have long waited for. It's simply a tool that allows officers and agents to actually do their job. Without it, there is simply no way to stop illegal immigration. I lived in AZ for 4 years and my rescue unit shared the helo pad with Border Patrol. These guys need all of the help they can get, trust me, they are spread thin.

Simply put, entering the United States without the proper paper work and due process is illegal. People that do so should be arrested.

If you're in this country and work here you should be paying taxes. If not you're taking a job from someone who IS here legally. I don't wanna hear any crap about cheap labor either, it's a recession. People of all ages and color are looking for ANY work they can find.

I'm all for helping non violent immigrants with no prior criminal record, my family came over on the boat FFS. But there is a process involved for a reason. Illegal immigrants are an extreme drain on society, be it from using the ER for simple medical care to smuggling metric tons of drugs into the country on a daily basis.

On the flip side I can understand the point-of-view that latino's across the Nation are feeling. The local and state gov is about to have the right to question and detain you if you don't have proof of citizenship. That sucks and I'm sorry. But there is simply no other viable way to combat illegal immigration.

This new bill is tool to enforce laws that already exist. It's a choice to be illegal. If there is no consequence to being illegal then there is no reason to not stay that way.

WD

[AZhitman]

Feel free to make your own assessment of it: http://www.azcentral.com/news/election/ ... -bill.html

While I think reform is needed, I think the bill is flawed. Here's my take on it, albeit limited:

The law requires local law enforcement to determine an individual's legal status if there is reasonable suspicion that he or she is in the U.S. illegally.

My problem with it is this: Based on what I understand of it (quick read), in order to placate the handwringing libbies who scream "PROFILING!" as a hobby, it then requires LEO's to confirm the citizenship of EVERY person they make "official" contact with... AND actually allows a private citizen to SUE the law enforcement officer, department, and municipality if they winess the officer FAILING to do so.

It also allows the municipality to hold ME liable if I hire someone to do a job without verifying their citizenship.

Now, be it known that I vehemently oppose illegal immigration.

How-freaking-ever, this component of the legislation is simply retarded.

Let's say Becky and I are driving across town, and she gets pulled over. The LEO is required to verify BOTH of our citizenships prior to cutting us loose. I you observe the traffic stop, and the LEO doesn't verify (how the hell are they gonna do THAT?) then you can actually sue him / his dept / the city.

Another example: There's a lady I know who cleans houses. For the 2 years I was "on my own", I had her come in weekly and clean NICO HQ. As it stands, I'd have to now "verify" her status as a legal resident. How the HELL am I supposed to do that? What if she's not? What if she gets PISSED? I'm supposed to be an expert on citizenship documents? Do I need to attend a class to learn how to identify forged documents?

Worse, the bill makes it a state crime for a legal foreign resident not to be carrying their immigration documents. ("VEE NEED TO SEE YOUR PAPERS!!!") That's some nonsense. Lets remember, this includes ALL foreign nationals, not just Hispanics.

This is some stupid knee-jerk crap, drafted by morons. John McCain, as much as I respect you, I'm looking at you (he supports it).

p.s. I hope this confounds the hell out of those of you who have EVER painted me as a right-leaning neo-con. Have fun pigeonholing someone else.

[bigbadberry3]

Thanks for clarifying much of this topic. I'm pretty staunch in my opposition to illegal immigration but In Chicago we don't have such a prominent issue as states like AZ, (haven't heard of any large groups of Canadians moving across the border.) Your example of Becky definitely presents a problem with the proposed legislation.

How much different is this bill then the current regulations with illegal immigrants? And how strict are LEO's with enforcement of the current policy? Occasionally we see raids like this albeit a few years ago but are people and businesses actually charged with anything and prosecuted? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12393925/

I agree with WD, if you come here illegally, you are a criminal and should be treated as one, and apparently lots of them already are criminals: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... d5e9b.html

I'm fairly liberal with most my views but even this is worrisome to me, that our constitution is being abused by foreigners: http://venturactyngttia.ning.com/profil ... eign-birth

[szh]

It seems like an unenforceable law. When I travel inside the US, I don't carry my passport with me ... if I get pulled over in Phoenix, all I will have is my California driving license. If this is deemed insufficient, then that is absolutely stupid. What are they going to do ... "deport" me back to California?

Years ago, back in 1991, I visited the USSR for a business trip - we took a train ride from Moscow to Kiev (all inside the USSR at the time - not a separate country). It amazed me that all the Russians (who were along with the American team that I was with) had to carry their passports because any official could walk up and demand "papers, please" on the train at any time! Not a question of being pulled over or anything like that.

Is that what we are heading towards? Absurd!

Z

[srellim234]

So much of this would be avoided if the federal government simply enforced existing immigration law. Go after the businesses and individuals who hire illegals.

Apply the I-9 hiring form requiring two forms of ID to all business hiring, not just certain large ones. It's not that big of a deal to send those in. Update the IRS computers and coordinate them with with Immigration and put parameters to spit out suspect hirings for further investigation. Same SSI# in different states? Check it out! All kinds of forged hiring documents would show up and the companies could be informed. As long as the company submits I-9s it wouldn't be penalized. Repeat offenders, however, could be investigated for intentional attempted fraud.

Individual illegal immigrants would be exposed and put into the deportation process.

I know a real solution would require much more than this but I think you can understand the direction I'm leading. It's a start.

[WDRacing]

Is that what we are heading towards? Absurd!

Z

It's easy to carry a state ID. Which I'm sure will be more then good enough. Immigration is a serious problem and it needs to be dealt with. This is no different then the things we now endure when boarding a plane.

The ends justify the means by 100%. Without the ability to ask questions the authorities have no authority...how the hell are we supposed to fix something when we can't ask the required questions?

Is it really so awful to carry an ID? I mean lets stop making a mountain out of mole hill here guys. If you're legal you'll have an ID.

Lets all stop with the coddling here...illegal immigrants have had free reign in this country since it's inception. It HAS to stop some time and some how. Implementing some red tape crap isn't going to do a damn thing either. Going after people that hire illegals isn't going to stop them from coming into the country, sounds good on paper, sucks in practice.

In order to stop the influx of illegal immigrants you need to enforce the boarders and make life suck for them once they're already here. That's just fact. There is no "kids gloves" manner to attack this problem. Why do you think Obama is doing ZERO here? Because it's a loser of a battle and he doesn't want his name attached to it.

WD

[WDRacing]

Another interesting tidbit, since Obamalama has now condemned the AZ bill, perhaps if the Feds had dealt with the Immigration issue it wouldn't need to handled at the state level. But Obama has been SO busy...

Lets see...yup...played golf 32 friggin times since he's been in office. It took Bush 2 years and 10 months to play just 24 times. Maybe he could have done something more constructive with his time.

Way to go Prez...got your priorities right where they need to be...on yourself.

[srellim234]

I wish you would drop the bogus golf criticism. Bush didn't play as much because he supposedly gave up the game as a sacrifice as long as our troops were in harm's way. Then he played anyway, just not as often (that we know of). While Bush was spending boatloads of time on his ranch, where was your criticism?

Obama is entitled to take 4-5 hours every other Saturday to play golf. Quit trying to make an issue out of it.

[s0m3th1ngAZ]

In order to stop the influx of illegal immigrants you need to enforce the boarders and make life suck for them once they're already here. That's just fact. There is no "kids gloves" manner to attack this problem. Why do you think Obama is doing ZERO here? Because it's a loser of a battle and he doesn't want his name attached to it.

WD

That...and the whole loss of cheap labor could have a disastrous effect on this already repressed economy.
Or...it could pull us out of the recession by increasing the amount of taxable people in the country and lowering the unemployment rate (Less people, more jobs, and the immigrants who secure the right to stay will contribute equally). But I tend to be a skeptic.

[szh]

Is that what we are heading towards? Absurd!

Z

It's easy to carry a state ID. Which I'm sure will be more then good enough. Immigration is a serious problem and it needs to be dealt with. This is no different then the things we now endure when boarding a plane.

The ends justify the means by 100%. Without the ability to ask questions the authorities have no authority...how the hell are we supposed to fix something when we can't ask the required questions?

Is it really so awful to carry an ID? I mean lets stop making a mountain out of mole hill here guys. If you're legal you'll have an ID.

My point is that the California driving license is, in effect, a "State ID". But, supposedly the AZ police cannot accept other state's driving licenses as adequate "proof" under this law. That is absurd!

That was the point of my point.

Z

[szh]

Lets all stop with the coddling here...illegal immigrants have had free reign in this country since it's inception. It HAS to stop some time and some how. Implementing some red tape crap isn't going to do a damn thing either. Going after people that hire illegals isn't going to stop them from coming into the country, sounds good on paper, sucks in practice.

In order to stop the influx of illegal immigrants you need to enforce the boarders and make life suck for them once they're already here. That's just fact. There is no "kids gloves" manner to attack this problem. Why do you think Obama is doing ZERO here? Because it's a loser of a battle and he doesn't want his name attached to it.

Those points I can agree with.

Z

[WDRacing]

I didn't mean to undercut your point Z. Are you sure that an out of state license can't be used? If so I don't see how they can possibly expect an already under staffed police force to handle any issues that arise on the individual levels.

[szh]

I didn't mean to undercut your point Z.

Not a problem!

Are you sure that an out of state license can't be used? If so I don't see how they can possibly expect an already under staffed police force to handle any issues that arise on the individual levels.

Exactly the concern! The claim is that they cannot quickly verify the legitimacy of any out-of-state license ... if this is true, the law enforcement officer will have darn tough time knowing what to do for out-of-state drivers they happen to pull over.

Now, if this is not a true fact, then I will stand corrected.

Z

[WDRacing]

Logic and common sense would make me hope that most Officers will accept the ID and move on with why they're talking to you in the first place. I want our Police officers fighting crime first and when possible, detaining illegal immigrants.

If you look at this from a enforcement perspective, you have to cringe and think about the logistic nightmare you just had dropped in your lap. There are so many levels of f*** that could happen here...lol. It will be an interesting first 6 months once this becomes active. Which is what, 90 days from today?

On the flip side to all of this, you have to hope that the Fed Gov will be hard at work coming up with methods to streamline the process of Naturalization. I have no doubt that there are hard working illegal immigrants that own homes and are productive members of the United States. These people need to be given a hand. I mean FFS, we are throwing money at everything else right!

Did I mention Obama is on vacation right now!!! Go play some golf you F'n puppet.

[srellim234]

A three day weekend is hardly a vacation, but that's what they're calling it. And no golf.

If you're going to criticize Obama, make sure you criticize them all. If we disregard the previous President who broke all "time off" records, remember that President George H.W. Bush, spent 153 days in Maine and 390 at Camp David; Dwight Eisenhower spent 222 days for 29 golf outings in Augusta, Ga., during his eight years in office; Harry Truman spent 175 days in Key West, Fla., over seven years; and Ronald Reagan famously loved his vacations, spending all or part of 335 days during his eight-year presidency at his Santa Barbara, Calif., ranch.

A President should be judged on his accomplishments, not the amount of time he wasn't sitting on his butt behind the desk in the Oval Office.

[WDRacing]

I'm tired of people telling ME how to feel and who I should judge and based on what I should use to judge them. Here's an idea, how about I'll feel however I want about anything I want because it's my right to do so.

If I had to scribe a list of prior offenders every time I offered my opinion on someone currently in office I'd be sitting here ALL day typing before I even reached the original point.

How about we deal with the here and the now, because it doesn't remotely matter what someone else has said or done in the past. Obama is going around saying lets engage on immigration reform, lets do so because failure to act on a Fed level will only cause more misguided efforts at a state level.

HELLO...people have been screaming that very thing for YEARS NOW!!! Yet there has been no decisive action taken. His campaign promised to deal with immigration landed him a windfall of immigrant voters. Then he did nothing...nothing. The Latino community is furious and rightly so. Do to his inaction the state of AZ was forced to implement there own law...one that is probably going to end badly for a lot of good people.

But they are doing something. If you're running a state and get no help at a federal level and you are dealing with a huge problem that effects all levels of the economy and community...you have to do something.

I only mentioned the golf thing because I think Obama's inaction is best summed up by how many times he's played golf and how many times he's asked Congress to work on immigration reform. BTW, he IS playing golf this weekend...I just checked... http://www.citizen-times.com/article/20 ... /100424004

On the 20th of this month it's reported that Obama played golf 32 times since he's been in office, make that at least 33 since he's playing right now.

That's 33 times for golf and 1 time for Immigration. Now personally IDGAF because I enjoy golf, but I'm pretty sure all of the Latino's in AZ would have preferred a little less golf and a little more immigration reform.

For the record, I'm not saying Obama is the biggest slacker I just don't care about anyone else as they aren't running my country at the moment.

WD

[srellim234]

As of last night when I posted golf was not on the agenda. Apparently they worked it in.

Tha said, I want to thank you for keeping us informed with your inside information. I didn't know you were on the "need to know" list at the White House and kept informed of every phone call, message to Congress or even every conversation the President has with every representative and Senator he shares a golf cart with.

The fact is, you have no knowledge hard he is or is not working on the issue.

[audtatious]

The law is pretty much unenforceable as written. No citizen has to have a drivers license nor state-issued ID with them at all times. The only way to make snap decisions is based upon profiling which is taboo. Reminds me of the movie "Born in East LA".

I do find it amusing that those who claim to be for the illegals are constantly bring up "cheap labor" as a positive aspect in which they are supporting nothing more than the creation of a permanent labor underclass which simply exploits the illegals to begin with.

[WDRacing]

As of last night when I posted golf was not on the agenda. Apparently they worked it in.

Tha said, I want to thank you for keeping us informed with your inside information. I didn't know you were on the "need to know" list at the White House and kept informed of every phone call, message to Congress or even every conversation the President has with every representative and Senator he shares a golf cart with.

The fact is, you have no knowledge hard he is or is not working on the issue.

You don't have to be on any special list, you just need to be able to type a few words and click "search"...if that's to much for you

I don't need hard evidence to come to an informed opinion, I just have to read a little. If he were actively pursuing legislation for immigration reform we wouldn't have Latino Senators screaming at him to do something. He would have been able to come to the table with AZ and say "this is what we're doing". He could have prevented this entire law from being passed if he simply engaged.

It's just my opinion dude, if you don't subscribe that's fine. I'm not selling anything, just talking, no need to stop being a lady

[srellim234]

Really? A search engine tells you what he talked about on the phone and in private discussions in a golf cart? Which search engine is that?

Everyone has different ways of prioritizing what they want to accomplish. And laying the groundwork for getting it done. Latino lawmakers are often placing immigration as their #1 item. Others don't. Obviously the President doesn't.

He inherited an ugly economy. That was his #1 priority. He succeeded in screwing it up even worse. Priority #2: screw up health reform. Mission accomplished. Now he's revisiting the economy under the guise of preventing it from happening again and is in the process of butchering Wall Street rules and regulations.

Possibly he figures there's a better chance of getting immigration reform passed after the Republicans pick up some seats in the midterm elections. The minority party always does.

It takes time to ruin so many major pieces of legislation covering such a wide range of issues. Give him a little more time. He'll get there.

[audtatious]

He inherited an ugly economy. That was his #1 priority. He succeeded in screwing it up even worse. Priority #2: screw up health reform. Mission accomplished. Now he's revisiting the economy under the guise of preventing it from happening again and is in the process of butchering Wall Street rules and regulations.

Possibly he figures there's a better chance of getting immigration reform passed after the Republicans pick up some seats in the midterm elections. The minority party always does.

It takes time to ruin so many major pieces of legislation covering such a wide range of issues. Give him a little more time. He'll get there.

[WDRacing]

Really? A search engine tells you what he talked about on the phone and in private discussions in a golf cart? Which search engine is that?

Did I say that? No...

Like I said already, let me repeat myself, if you can't keep up take notes. I'll worry about my opinion and how I come to it, you worry about your own...great then.

Are you just disagreeing with me under the pretense that you think he's been working on immigration behind closed doors? If so then by all means say so, but arguing with me just to argue is pointless.

[srellim234]

Obama has expressed a big desire to work on immigration reform for many years. He also indicated that he was putting legislation about it on hold while he addressed other issues. I don't believe he has totally ignored the issue. Laying the behind the scenes groundwork takes time, private conversations and some "arm-twisting." I believe he has talked with people all along about what he wants to accomplish, talking to those who might not be as inclined to reform it like those Latino congresspeople are. They are already onboard.

You're the one sayng he's only called for immigration reform once and golf is much more important to him. You indicated based on your statements that he's shouldn't be allowed to take a few hours off to relax every other weekend by citing how much he's played golf. Is he supposed to work 24/7 without any time off? How does the manner which he spends 3-5 hours every other week (during which he is still on call and carrying the responsibilities of the Presidency) indicate that activity is more important than the immigation issue and he's not working on it? He may be working on it privately the other 13 days and 19 hours? I agree that he's currently not talking it up enough for my liking but neither one of us knows that golf is more important than that issue to him.

[Jesda]

Pass more laws.

Problem solved? No? Yes? Pat selves on back and celebrate regardless of outcome?

HIGH FIVES ALL AROUND!

[AZhitman]

He inherited an ugly economy. That was his #1 priority. He succeeded in screwing it up even worse. Priority #2: screw up health reform. Mission accomplished. Now he's revisiting the economy under the guise of preventing it from happening again and is in the process of butchering Wall Street rules and regulations.

Possibly he figures there's a better chance of getting immigration reform passed after the Republicans pick up some seats in the midterm elections. The minority party always does.

It takes time to ruin so many major pieces of legislation covering such a wide range of issues. Give him a little more time. He'll get there.

Would it be gay of me to say I love you?

[Cold_Zero]

That...and the whole loss of cheap labor could have a disastrous effect on this already repressed economy.

What la la land are you living in? The recession is actually forcing illegals to go back to their home country. Mainly because of the glut of labor in this country (from high unemployment rates) and the suspension spending (of personal, local and state projects.) Also if people are cutting back on their spending the first things to go are non essential services like landscaping and house cleaning...

Or...it could pull us out of the recession by increasing the amount of taxable people in the country and lowering the unemployment rate (Less people, more jobs, and the immigrants who secure the right to stay will contribute equally). But I tend to be a skeptic.

Wait, you think that the people who come here illegally to work actually pay taxes? Not only do they not pay taxes, but they drain the local/state infrastructures, steal people's identities to do so (which is a felony) and send the bulk of their money over the border where it is not re-invested in your local economy. How the hell would this pull our country out of the recession?

[el_blacky06]

Wait, you think that the people who come here illegally to work actually pay taxes? Not only do they not pay taxes, but they drain the local/state infrastructures, steal people's identities to do so (which is a felony) and send the bulk of their money over the border where it is not re-invested in your local economy. How the hell would this pull our country out of the recession?[/quote]

i agree except about the tax part. even people that dont have the right to work here also get taxed under their employment. when people do not have papers (like my parents back like 10 years ago) they get paid cash and get taxed on the spot as if they were working if they were to have a social security. so im my opinion, anyone who is illegal and work here in the u.s. also contributes to this country. it could be from just getting taxed to illegal families having their son or daughter in the military serving for the u.s. most of the people that cross the border just want to find work since obviously they pay better than anywhere else in countries.as a son born from a mexican family i really think this is an outrage enforcing such a law like this. now i dont live in AZ but this law is discrimination.

[Cold_Zero]

Fair enough of the taxes part, but can I ask is it only FICA that they pay and not the local and state taxes? I have a hard time believing that day labor and contractors who are paid in cash under the table pay their fair share of income taxes (across the board). But I would love to be proven wrong.

Also, the other thing that irritates me about this issue is that people who support illegal immigrants 'rights' are the same that also support the 'living-fair wage.' Why is it ok for illegals (regardless of what country they come from) to be taken advantage of and not be paid the minimum wage or a living wage?

[el_blacky06]

i would like to say yes but not across the board. that would depened on what type of labor and who the employer is. like for example, random people pick up workers in the home depot to have things done to their house or when theyre short people for the days work. those are the type of people that get paid under the table and dont pay any taxes at all. i cant prove you wrong about the taxes but im just contributing one side of many stories in the immigration families.