So AZ, what's going on over there? (AZ Immigration Bill)

[ADDirishboy]

Greg said it perfectly before. The idea of the law in itself is long overdue. The way it is written, however, makes a mess out of everything.

The entire law (essentially):
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/s ... hs.doc.htm

I have a problem with a couple of these entries

5. Allows a law enforcement officer, without a warrant, to arrest a person if the officer has probable cause to believe that the person has committed any public offense that makes the person removable from the U.S.

Probable cause is a broad area. I'm not saying every officer is going to take advantage of this. But I do personally know a few members of the PD that would abuse this heavily. The needs to stick to something they were actually doing wrong at the time the officer saw them, not just looking shady.

7. Disallows officials or agencies of the state or political subdivisions from adopting or implementing policies that limit immigration enforcement to less than the full extent permitted by federal law, and allows a person to bring an action in superior court to challenge an official or agency that does so.

This one needs no explanation. It's just a waste of time and money.

11. Specifies that, in addition to any violation of federal law, a person is guilty of trespassing if the person is:
a) present on any public or private land in the state and
b) is not carrying his or her alien registration card or has willfully failed to register.

So if you are taking a jog around your neighborhood and a police officer deems that he had "probably cause" that you were doing something wrong, can arrest you for not having your papers on you? Sorry, but I don't need to carry any form of ID if I'm going for a run, or walk, etc.

31. Establishes a class 3 felony for failing to:
a) verify employment eligibility through E-Verify or
b) keep records of verifications.

As Greg said before, I have to verify my cleaning lady? My gardener? And keep records of it? And if I don't I'm slapped with a class 3 felony? No. This is just wrong.

Other than that, the law looks decent enough. There may be additional articles I left out but those were what I immediately noticed whilst skimming through.

Here is one thing to think about for those who think immigration laws are entirely evil. My father and I used to do a lot of hunting down south. Javelina, deer, etc. We REFUSE to hunt in those areas anymore. Why? Because it's too dangerous. I have witnessed hordes of illegals walking through the middle of the desert while glassing for javelina. They are armed, they are carrying backpacks FULL of drugs, they also leave behind trash like you wouldn't believe.

Now, I know, littering may seem like a miniscule problem. But once you have seen a wash that is 12 feet wide and stretches for a few miles that is FULL of trash, you will think differently.

Immigration is a huge deal down here. We need to get a hold of it. And while this law is a step in the right direction, it still needs some work.

[Cold_Zero]

On number #5. Seriously, that is an issue? If an IMPD officer has probable cause that I committed a crime, without a warrant they can pull me over, search my car and arrest me. I fail to see how this is an issue other than being in this country (which is a crime) is now being singled out.

[ADDirishboy]

# 5 isn't one I really personally have an issue with. I should have worded that differently. That is the one most people are up in arms about with the "ZOMG PROFILING" issue. If an officer has a legitimate belief that person has committed a crime, be my guest, arrest him.

That one is really what a TON of other people are yelling about. Again, I personally know officers who take advantage of the badge and will abuse that entry specifically.

I just think that needs to be watched to make sure officers aren't just pulling over every family of Mexicans and saying that he had reasonable suspicion that they were committing a crime. Just keep it monitored, that's all.

[david_mejia9190]

True fact: the officer does have to make "lawful contact."
However, also knowing Sheriff Joe, and taking some personal experience into consideration, this law WILL allow him to profile without consideration. I myself being of Hispanic descent, am also against illegal immigration, I am a natural born citizens, and my parents came here legally and worked for theirs. So in no way am I defending them, I am defending those who were born here, or earned their right to be here. This law has a HUGE defect. Many, actually. I don't have immigration papers to carry around, if I am suspected to be illegal, I won't have them and will be arrested on the spot. By the way this probably won't happen to any other ethnicity or race. Now I know I am legal so this shouldn't worry me right? WRONG! What if I am on my way to work, school, or to an important meeting. Being one to trying to lighten the mood, what if I'm on my way to go and get laid? I have to deal with the frustration and embarrassment of being taken downtown wrongfully accused. And on top of that being charged a ridiculous amount for not carrying the correct paperwork. I do believe there has to be measures taken to secure our borders, but my PD should not be one to do it. They should be focused on more dangerous crimes happening at the time. Washington is now being aware of the frustrations of illegal immigration, we should let them focus on a solution, and not write up a very dumb law, to say the least.

[mattblancarte]

Honestly, US citizens who carry AZ driver's licenses and have decent command of the english language will not have to worry. I totally do not buy the whole "I'm hispanic and they'll be coming after me" plea.

Two hypothetical situations while getting pulled over on the US-60 in Tempe for a minor traffic violation or mechanical issue like a tail light... let's say these two people just left the Arizona Mills mall after checking out the fine wares of the local merchants:

Officer: License, registration, proof of insurance please.

Hispanic motorist 1: Just a moment officer. I'm going to reach into my dash compartment to get the registration and proof of insurance. Here you are. (hands officer documents)

Officer: Just a moment. (Officer goes to car for 10 minutes and comes back). Your tail light is out. Where are you from?

Hispanic Motorist 1: I'm sorry officer, I had no idea. I just looked at it earlier today... I'm from here, sir. Tempe native.

Officer: Alright. Get that fixed. Have a good day.

Hispanic Motorist 1: Thank you sir. You too! (relief overcomes nervous motorist)

In this scenario, the cop was super nice. But, you know what, so was the motorist. Not that crazy of a story. Now, onto motorist numero dos:

Officer: License, registration, proof of insurance please.

Hispanic motorist 1: ... "¿Que?"

Sorry, busted!

Now, I'm not saying that hispanic people will walk away without feeling pressure from law enforcement, but come on just be a polite citizen and you'll probably be okay. If not, pursue litigation.

In terms of going after businesses that employ illegals... What is the problem with this? We have to jump through hoops to hire legal US citizens, why should some business owners get to dodge laws and others not?

If you think Police don't already do ANYTHING THEY POSSIBLY CAN to put people behind bars that they suspect deserve it, you're kidding yourself.

All this does is allow law enforcement to deal with illegal immigrants within the bounds of law. Don't like it? Vote vote vote.

All that being said, this legislation does not deal with the core of the problem. Follow the money, and you'll find the root of the issue here.

[WDRacing]

I'm 100% for illegal immigrant round ups and deportations.

With that said I'm also a freedom advocate. Any loss of freedom is a bad thing. This law is definitely flawed but I fail to see how any other method is going to actually work. This is a means justifying the ends type of law. If the Fed Gov would actually enforce border security we would have far less of a problem, but they don't and won't. The Democrats simply lack the will to protect this country, always have, always will.

[srellim234]

I agree, but the Republicans lack the will to actually do it as well. They refused when they were in power to crack down on the repeat offender business owners who hire the illegals to work in their assembly and other plants. They talk a good game but when it comes down to it neither party wants to do because they are getting too much money from the rich folks that want to hire the illegals. It's all about the money and both parties are profiting handsomely from perpetuating the issue.

The problem requires a comprehensive solution that both secures the borders and prevents those who get here or are here illegally from finding jobs here. And we no longer need the population so it's time to quit automatically granting citizenship to anyone born within our borders.

[WDRacing]

I can't speak to how much $$ both parties receive from "them" but I agree that both parties are weak and broken. The Republicans may lack the motivation to handle immigration but the Democrats are simply to into human rights or whatever term best suits someone that thinks everyone should be granted free access to the US, free schooling and all sorts of other Liberal social programs.

Once UH starts I think Hospitals should be able to turn away people with no Ins. That will at least stop some of the ER abuse.

[srellim234]

[mattblancarte]

From what I understand, a lot of the violence related to illegal immigrants stems from the illegal drug trade. Legalize/regulate drugs like anything else, and voila, no more shootouts.

When is the last time you saw someone shoot up a Bud Light truck to secure the cargo? 1933?

Give the criminals on both sides of the borader a way to do legitimate, controlled business. That way when conflict resolution is required, people don't light each other up.

Spare me the social ramifications nonsense. Those who want drugs currently can get them easily. Supply will not change other than the fact it will be coming from a regulated source.

Follow the money.

[RobPaulson]

came here for a bit of insight on the topic, as my initial reaction was... "they are illegal, why is this bill a problem? key word... ILLEGAL." I couldnt imagine why people are screaming for the 'rights' of these people... they have no rights. they are here illegally. GTFO.

I do see where the bill will need some more specifics. But honestly... what happened to the dems "Oh every bill has flaws, just pass it!" attitude?? *cough* HEALTHCARE *cough* ??

I do not see a problem with people getting a passport CARD (yes, they now have passport cards, same as driver ID's) that should be accepted by any law enforcement officer. And since the recent enforcement of passport necessity to come in/out of the country, everyone should have a passport and a passport CARD. I see absolutely no problem with all citizens being required to carry proper ID. Sure, if you're out jogging and don't have your ID, I'm sure if you explain your situation, and are within running distance of your home, the officer would not have a problem letting you provide proof of citizenship. Now if that is not in the law, then it needs to be more specific. However, peoples arugments in general against this law really, really bother me. way too much concern for illegals 'rights'. ... give me a phkn break.

[AZhitman]

^ NO EFFING WAY am I carrying "papers" to prove my citizenship.

I already said my piece at the beginning of this thread.

Since the issue came to light, 2 things have become abundantly clear: Our POTUS talks out of both sides of his mouth on this issue, AND he doesn't really have the sack to stand up to the proponents of this law... He's weak and fails at leadership. Hell, even PELOSI pointed it out.

There IS a way to do this without trampling on the Constitution and WITHOUT impacting the rest of the citizenry... NM Gov Bill Richardson (an incredibly smart man despite his party affiliation) outlined it perfectly last night on Larry King's show.

[mattblancarte]

Half the states already require citizens to identify themselves to the police, regardless of why they ask for it (e.g. they stop someone while walking on a sidewalk for no reason, or maybe they are sitting at a bus stop).

I'm interested in Bill Richardson's idea(s), but I couldn't find the clip. Will be on the lookout.

[f1seb]

I'm an immigrant and I support this bill, the rest of the country should follow Arizona's footsteps.

[audtatious]

I really don't know why some people are so against US border and sovereignty protection. Want to come to the US then do it the legal way and be welcomed with opened arms.

[AZhitman]

Read about it. It's flawed (badly).

However, it's never gonna be passed as law, so that's a good thing.

That'll give our slacker POTUS time to rip off someone else's idea of TRUE immigration reform.

[audtatious]

Greg, who/what are you replying to? Use the quote button pleze

[AZhitman]

Greg, who/what are you replying to? Use the quote button pleze

You and Sebastian.

[szh]

I do not see a problem with people getting a passport CARD (yes, they now have passport cards, same as driver ID's) that should be accepted by any law enforcement officer. And since the recent enforcement of passport necessity to come in/out of the country, everyone should have a passport and a passport CARD. I see absolutely no problem with all citizens being required to carry proper ID.

A few comments on this:

1. The passport book is a superset of the passport card. The card does not allow you to travel internationally by air and only applies to people travelling by land or sea from a few nations (Canada, Mexico, Cayman Islands, etc.). Since I have a passport book, why should I be forced to get a passport card simply for the purpose of identifying myself as a US citizen? My driver license should be sufficient ... apparently, an AZ drivers license is okay, but other states are not supposedly because it would be difficult to verify its correctness. Yeah, right!

2. Are you talking about immigrants getting a passport card or ALL citizens? Remember that MOST people in the US do not have either a card or a passport and should not be forced to spend the money for them, in my opinion. Give it out free if the government wants everyone to have one. But the bureaucracy to do this expands government and cost, and I am opposed to that!

Z

[nissangirl74]

Sure, if you're out jogging and don't have your ID, I'm sure if you explain your situation, and are within running distance of your home, the officer would not have a problem letting you provide proof of citizenship.

You are dreaming. This is AZ, not Mayberry. Andy Taylor isn't going to follow you home so you can get your papers. if you don't have your papers, you're gonna be screwed. The amount of latitude afforded the law enforcement officials already is far greater than what it needs to be. Any time the term, "at their discretion" is stated, or implied, there will be issues. In a nutshell, this is gonna get ugly.

Just to clarify, I do believe that something needs to be done. I could honestly care less about the immigrants who want to come here, earn a living, and raise their children in a country where they don't have to worry (as much) about their kids getting shot on the way to school. Come here, learn the language, get your citizenship, pay your taxes, God Bless You all. What I do care about are the violent criminals and drug dealers that are walking into this country through my backyard. *119,000 CAPTURED in the past six months.** That doesn't include those that made it. http://calamities.gaeatimes.com/2010/05 ... der-19726/

Is this bill the answer? I don't think it is. What is the answer, I honestly don't know. I do think it is a crying shame that AZ had to do something THIS drastic to get everyone's attention though. One fact that can't be denied is that this bill supports racial profiling, regardless if it says so or not. Is there any other way to determine if someone is suspect? People make assumptions, they make decisions based on instinct, it's human nature. If you're brown and the only language you speak is Spanish, guess what? You're a target. Unfortunately, if any of our Mexican/Muslim friends from NICO ever came out to visit us, they could also become a target. If they don't have their ID on them when walking down the street, or out for a drive in one of our cars, what happens then? At the very least they are detained for a lengthy period of time until their identification can be confirmed.

[audtatious]

IMO, the only crackdown needed is from an employment standpoint and validating for state/federal subsidy or welfare programs. If they can't work in AZ or other states then they have no reason to come over here. If they spent as much effort trying to fix the issues in Mexico, as they are here to fight for amnesty/against these bills/for illegal alien rights, maybe Mexico would be a better place to be in the first place.

I also find it humorous again that those who care nothing for the Constitution, or support stepping on the Constitution for their other pet projects like UHC, would be so adamant to uphold a view of it in this instance. But, I'm just a racist so what do I know.

[AZhitman]

I have a right to NOT carry ID in my country. I also have a right to NOT tell you who I am or where I'm from (unless there is a legitimate investigative purpose). I have a right NOT to be harassed, detained or inconvenienced.

Anyone who chooses to jeopardize those rights can GTFO (and take their fascism with them).

[audtatious]

Sure, nobody wants to be randomly stopped and hassled for ID as that's not Constitutional. Employers should be mandated to validate those they employ (as easily as possible). If you are pulled over for a driving infraction or break the law then ID should be checked out.

[WDRacing]

There are many laws already in place that will allow Police to ask questions. Loitering, public gathering with no permit, jay walking and the list goes on. The rules simply aren't enforced. If the Police operate under the new bill and use all the loophole BS laws that already exist they won't have to randomly ask anyone anything. Then you'll have no choice but to show your ID. If you "flee" when the police show up and you were just committing any of the BS minor infractions that are still law, then you're breaking the law and can further be questioned and detained.

The Police have had the means to do this for a long time, they just don't because it's a waste of time and resources. Now the Police can drive up, stop, ask for ID and tell everyone to "break it up". I've been told that on more then one occasion.

If you don't want to carry your ID that's your right, but people refusing to carry an ID just out of spite aren't doing anything to help our immigration problem. 99.9% of the time you're going to be questioned by Police you're going to have driven to where the incident is taking place and it's law that you have your DL to drive. The whole, "what if I'm jogging" example is retarded and extreme. Police aren't going to stopping people while they are out jogging. I agree the bill is flawed, but we have NOTHING in place otherwise and the Feds aren't going to accomplish anything anytime soon and when they do pump something out it'll be broken before it's even implemented.

Just my .02

[AZhitman]

Bottom line is this: This is the Federal government's responsibility. They've failed us. POTUS is too busy pandering to the hand-wringers and do-nothings, ignoring the people who make this country strong and great, and worrying about improving our standing in the eyes of pissant countries with nothing to offer than he is in attending to the safety and security of the people of the US.

Joke's on him: The Latino community doesn't even respect him as a whole, and his weakness won't earn him votes. He hasn't learned that holding people accountable garners respect, even if it's met with resistance initially. GWB knew this, and was VERY well-respected in the Latino community.

As far as AZ taking things into her own hands, it's simply a means to an end - It's the equivalent of jumping up and down, waving your arms, and screaming to be heard. Now, the nation is paying attention to our situation. We're not equipped to make those kinds of decisions here, we don't have the leadership for it. AZ politics are a joke, that's a well-known fact, and we're led by morons. I work 300 yards from 90% of them, and they're buffoons.

Now - Let's see what Washington does with the "Arizona Situation".

[WDRacing]

Awesome post...

I love AZ. I only got to spend 4 years there...7 months of those I was on um.."vacation"...lol. Then we left and I almost immediately missed Tucson. Everything I ever wanted to do was within a short 20 minute drive. The weather simply can't be beat, the people were cool for the most part and the desert landscape just grew on me.

With that said, AZ has some serious immigration/smuggling problems and I can speak from personal experience when I say things come unchecked across the border by the truckload every day all day.

The only way that we can ebb the flow of traffic is to build a "great wall" across the entire southern border of the US and man it with security. It's not like we don't have a reason to build the wall anyway. The amount of jobs it would create over night would help thousands. Actual right now help, imagine that. The infrastructure to keep the wall running would employ tons of people for the life of the damn country. But what do we do?

N A D A

[audtatious]

Bottom line is this: This is the Federal government's responsibility. They've failed us. POTUS is too busy pandering to the hand-wringers and do-nothings, ignoring the people who make this country strong and great, and worrying about improving our standing in the eyes of pissant countries with nothing to offer than he is in attending to the safety and security of the people of the US.

Joke's on him: The Latino community doesn't even respect him as a whole, and his weakness won't earn him votes. He hasn't learned that holding people accountable garners respect, even if it's met with resistance initially. GWB knew this, and was VERY well-respected in the Latino community.

As far as AZ taking things into her own hands, it's simply a means to an end - It's the equivalent of jumping up and down, waving your arms, and screaming to be heard. Now, the nation is paying attention to our situation. We're not equipped to make those kinds of decisions here, we don't have the leadership for it. AZ politics are a joke, that's a well-known fact, and we're led by morons. I work 300 yards from 90% of them, and they're buffoons.

Now - Let's see what Washington does with the "Arizona Situation".

Greg, I agree with you. This POTUS, Bush, Clinton, Bush 1 did nothing. After the 1986 Amnesty the laws were supposed to be enforced. They weren't. Fed Gov = total failure.

Current POTUS has already stated "his people" will be looking to push this to SCOTUS from a Constitutionality perspective and has also stated that AZ's actions will be watched very closely from a Civil Rights perspective. He has no intention of doing crap from a Federal perspective due to AZ's bill. He just wants their enforcement of the Fed Bill to go away so it's business as usual.

US Sovereignty should be protected by the Fed Gov. When the Feds fail then the states should have a right to enforce the Fed laws, which is pretty much what the AZ bill is copied from. I simply think enforcing it from an employment and services perspective will do FAR more to run illegals out than breaking Constitutional rights.

[Steady_One_S13]

You know if the Mexican Gov't would really try (try a little harder) to stomp out violence, drugs and cartels, then there wouldn't be such a large influx of illegals. Many jump or cross the border for a better life; a better job and to flee persecution. President Calderon has to do a better job to comfort his nation and to control or eradicate the problem. It's not just America's problem.

I'm all for deporting those illegals trying to cause havoc here in America, but the ones that wanna be just and honest should get their paper-work done the right way.

[mattblancarte]

You do realize that drug cartels in Mexico are hardcore to the point of battling the mexican military/law enforcement for control of entire towns and cities.

All you have to do is thank the current federal laws that make cocaine, heroin, and cannabis highly illegal. No pun intended.

Honestly, they produce 70% of the drugs in the US... THAT IS BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS DOLLARS. Like mid-11-figure numbers.

Who do we blame? The cocaine users? Seriously? You want to shut down demand for cocaine? Are you currently high on cocaine?

How about we throw more non-violent criminals in jail, too, for imbibing or insufflating things. That's the spirit, and it's what any moral person would do. /sarcasm

When I hear things like we should try harder to stomp out violence... THE ONLY WAY TO DO THAT IS TO STOP THE ILLEGAL FLOW OF MONEY.

Somebody tell me I'm way off on this, because I just can't see the other side of the argument (the moral degradation of society bit).

How does this post even matter? Most violent border crimes are drug-related.

[AZhitman]

...and of course, then we have J-Mac spouting nonsense like "border violence is at an all-time high".

Uhh, Senator - You're wrong. Unless you're talking about the OTHER side of the border.

In the US, It's actually lower than it's been in 3 years.

I'll summarize: The current laws in place are sufficient IF ENFORCED. We have neither the funding nor the manpower to enforce the already-existing Federal laws in our state. We'vebeen given unfunded mandates by Washington to do this, do that... Yet no support or backup is forthcoming.

BUT, we can send free debit cards to people who got wet in New Orleans.

(Ever notice that the good people in Tennessee aren't looking for a handout or blaming the President for not responding sooner to THEIR natural disaster... Hmmmm. Once again, Slowbama gets a free pass on everything.)