So AZ, what's going on over there? (AZ Immigration Bill)

[audtatious]

Allowing everything to be legal and Govt controlled won't do much as the cartels can still undercut the cost (after taxes the Gov will impose and the higher expense for US growth and control). Since possession will be legalized they can push more and more across the boarder at those cheaper prices. Stuff that is not legalized like Heroin, Meth, etc. would become another heavy push for the cartels too. You think simply legalizing weed and some other drugs will end cartels and drug-related crime? You are fooling yourself.

[HashiriyaS14]

I have a right to NOT carry ID in my country. I also have a right to NOT tell you who I am or where I'm from (unless there is a legitimate investigative purpose). I have a right NOT to be harassed, detained or inconvenienced.

Anyone who chooses to jeopardize those rights can GTFO (and take their fascism with them).

^^
THIS is why this is a horrible law, along with it being impossible to enforce and the fact that it foists an incredible legal burden onto Law Enforcement.

I still think that the solution to illegal immigration is to cull through these people and legalize the vast majority of them, i.e. those that are not criminals. Get them on the books, on the grid, paying taxes, helping the economy. Don't let them send money home, make them relocate their families here. Make them "invested" in America. Make it easy for a law-abiding person to become legal and then make the consequences for remaining ILLEGAL incredible draconian and frightening. At the same time, STOP THE FLOW by increasing border enforcement and working with Mexico to make people *not* want to run from there and come here. Mexican stability is American stability. We don't have much illegal Canadian immigration because Canada is a nice place to live. Mexico's problems are our problems, and they're cheap problems to fix. Lend a hand, gain an ally, it's the American way.

[AZhitman]

We're too busy playing footsie with Ahmadenijad and whatever-the-hell-his-name is in Pakistan.

[wingFeather]

Legalize/regulate drugs like anything else, and voila, no more shootouts.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Legalizing cocaine won't solve anything, and it won't solve the immigration problems. Next idea!

"they are illegal, why is this bill a problem? key word... ILLEGAL."

Exactly.

/thread

[audtatious]

THIS is why this is a horrible law, along with it being impossible to enforce and the fact that it foists an incredible legal burden onto Law Enforcement.

Police action and verifying citizenship is only a portion of the bill. That portion will be hard to enforce and will result in lawsuits to get it changed. The other aspects that are not being reported on can be viable. Right now the uproar is simply on "get your hand out of my wallet, my ID is mine".

[mattblancarte]

Legalize/regulate drugs like anything else, and voila, no more shootouts.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Legalizing cocaine won't solve anything, and it won't solve the immigration problems. Next idea!

Please elaborate on how legalizing cocaine along with other major contributors that are financing of VIOLENT CRIMINALS/TERRORISTS will not help. I'd be happy to dismantle your arguments one by one.

I'd also like to hear your ideas on how we can solve the problems of drug trafficking and violence along the border. I genuinely would like to see some reform in this area.

I honestly think that taking away their money will take away their power.

Sure, they (Mexican and American drug traffickers) may move onto selling other illegal items, but the demand for guns/weapons/etc. is nowhere near the demand for drugs.

[AZhitman]

"they are illegal, why is this bill a problem? key word... ILLEGAL."

Exactly.

/thread

Simplistic response is simplistic.

[audtatious]

I'd also like to hear your ideas on how we can solve the problems of drug trafficking and violence along the border. I genuinely would like to see some reform in this area.

The problem will need to be resolved with or without legalization of drugs here in the US. I've already stated why. You think the leaders who have the money and power will allow it to slip away? I don't see them saying "oh, drugs are now legal in the US so I need to open a taco stand instead".....

[mattblancarte]

Sorry, Audtatious. I missed your response.

Allowing everything to be legal and Govt controlled won't do much as the cartels can still undercut the cost (after taxes the Gov will impose and the higher expense for US growth and control).

Can you show me the current illegally cartel-run competition to Anheuser-Busch?

Since possession will be legalized they can push more and more across the boarder at those cheaper prices. Stuff that is not legalized like Heroin, Meth, etc. would become another heavy push for the cartels too. You think simply legalizing weed and some other drugs will end cartels and drug-related crime? You are fooling yourself.

The argument that demand will go up once drugs are legalized has no weight, and no proof. In fact, if you'd like to draw any comparisons, look back to the Alcohol Prohibition. Once we re-legalized booze, who took the financial hit? The illegal traffickers!

I'm not saying legaize "a few" things. I'm saying take the MAJOR moneymakers for illegal drug traffickers who sell to US citizens (cannabis, cocaine, heroin, meth, etc.) and make them legal. Tax them, give people a way to resolve disputes without busting out the old tommy gun, and then help people who have trouble taking care of themselves.

Will it fully end drug-related crime? No, not 100% of course not.

Again, we supply $13.6 - $48.4 billion annually to Mexican drug cartels. Legalize, then flow that money back into the pockets of Americans who can save money by having much lower costs to get high (oh no, did I just say that) and you can tax away your moral dilemma.

Basically, when I hear that we should keep it illegal, I hear "I support sending billions of dollars to drug cartels."

Also, if you think that ANY drug traffickers/cartels/etc. want drugs legalized, you're crazy. The illegality of their items is what makes the whole thing so damn lucrative.

[AZhitman]

I'm saying take the MAJOR moneymakers for illegal drug traffickers who sell to US citizens (cannabis, cocaine, heroin, meth, etc.) and make them legal. Tax them, give people a way to resolve disputes without busting out the old tommy gun, and then help people who have trouble taking care of themselves.

If we can't STOP it, how the hell are we gonna TAX it?

These guys aren't gonna pay TAXES. Especially after you cut the price of their product by 90%.

Talk legalization all you want, I won't object. But proposals of taxation are ludicrous. You can't tax this stuff any more than you can tax a smuggled-in shipment of fake Gucci purses.

[audtatious]

Sorry, Audtatious. I missed your response.

Allowing everything to be legal and Govt controlled won't do much as the cartels can still undercut the cost (after taxes the Gov will impose and the higher expense for US growth and control).

Can you show me the current illegally cartel-run competition to Anheuser-Busch?

It's actually cheaper to buy beer than go through the process to create beer and store it (and buy the materials and bottles and everything else required). No comparison to something that can grow in the wild and shoved in a bag.

Since possession will be legalized they can push more and more across the boarder at those cheaper prices. Stuff that is not legalized like Heroin, Meth, etc. would become another heavy push for the cartels too. You think simply legalizing weed and some other drugs will end cartels and drug-related crime? You are fooling yourself.

The argument that demand will go up once drugs are legalized has no weight, and no proof. In fact, if you'd like to draw any comparisons, look back to the Alcohol Prohibition. Once we re-legalized booze, who took the financial hit? The illegal traffickers!

I'm not saying legaize "a few" things. I'm saying take the MAJOR moneymakers for illegal drug traffickers who sell to US citizens (cannabis, cocaine, heroin, meth, etc.) and make them legal. Tax them, give people a way to resolve disputes without busting out the old tommy gun, and then help people who have trouble taking care of themselves.

Will it fully end drug-related crime? No, not 100% of course not.

Again, we supply $13.6 - $48.4 billion annually to Mexican drug cartels. Legalize, then flow that money back into the pockets of Americans who can save money by having much lower costs to get high (oh no, did I just say that) and you can tax away your moral dilemma.

Basically, when I hear that we should keep it illegal, I hear "I support sending billions of dollars to drug cartels."

Also, if you think that ANY drug traffickers/cartels/etc. want drugs legalized, you're crazy. The illegality of their items is what makes the whole thing so damn lucrative.

You are missing the point. Drug traffikers/cartels DON'T want drugs legalized as they own the market. If drugs are legalized they will simply undercut the "taxed" crop that is sold in the US. Say you can buy a gram of cocaine for $50 today. It gets legalized and put under ATF rule and the Gov taxes it like they do cigarettes. For giggles, let's say the Gov cost to the public for "legal" cocaine is the same price, $50 (FAT CHANCE). All cartels have to do is sneak it in and sell it at $35-40 a gram to undercut the Gov. How do you defend that? You think people who are hooked on it give a damn if the legal cocaine is "safer" for them?

[mattblancarte]

I'm not suggesting that we tax non-domestic drug cartels...

I'm suggesting that once legalized, a new legal market will emerge (e.g., Alcohol and Tobacco). Once legitimate businesses are registered and begin to report profits to the IRS, I don't see how taxing is ludicrous.

If you don't think that tons of people will start recreational drug business given a legal opportunity... No, I just can't entertain that. People will start business because the market is worth billions.

Really, I don't even think they should tax the hypothetical drug businesses any differently than the standard (depending on how your are incorporated).

[audtatious]

of course a new "business" will come out that is legal. Look at all the non-legal pot places that have sprung up in Cali (majority are not licensed). It surely will happen. AND, there will be plenty of people willing to buy the illegal drugs and sell as legal to the masses because of more profit margins. Cartels will still make tons of money and still smuggle drugs.

Honestly I'd love to see all drugs on the open market. Get hooked on meth? Fine, OD and be thrown into the fire to be turned into ash. Want to come clean and get off of it? Sure, here's a rubber room, knock yourself out. No reason to further drain the public coffers on your stupidity. Want to inhale from paint cans? Knock yourself out. Want to down good cough syrup? go for it. Kill yourself. We will all be better off without you anyway.

[mattblancarte]

It's actually cheaper to buy beer than go through the process to create beer and store it (and buy the materials and bottles and everything else required). No comparison to something that can grow in the wild and shoved in a bag.

This strengthens my point. It would be so much cheaper for drug consumers to purchase goods legally. Naturally, consumers would choose the cheaper route.

Its cheaper for companies to mass produce and compete in a legal arena compared to illegal cartels setting ridiculously high prices because there is zero regulation (other than it being flat-out illegal).

You are missing the point. Drug traffikers/cartels DON'T want drugs legalized as they own the market.

That's what I said. I agree.

If drugs are legalized they will simply undercut the "taxed" crop that is sold in the US. Say you can buy a gram of cocaine for $50 today. It gets legalized and put under ATF rule and the Gov taxes it like they do cigarettes. For giggles, let's say the Gov cost to the public for "legal" cocaine is the same price, $50 (FAT CHANCE). All cartels have to do is sneak it in and sell it at $35-40 a gram to undercut the Gov. How do you defend that? You think people who are hooked on it give a damn if the legal cocaine is "safer" for them?

You've offered an unreasonable hypothetical. If cocaine was legally mass-produced, you'd pay the same or less as a pack of cigarrettes (not $50). Competition breeds lower prices.

I agree, if the gov't is retarded and puts a stupid-high sales tax on them, you're recreating the problem you were trying to fix.

Again, please show me the current ILLEGAL CARTELS that compete with Anheuser-Busch and Philip Morris. Let's stay reality based, because we have real comparisons to draw from.

[mattblancarte]

of course a new "business" will come out that is legal. Look at all the non-legal pot places that have sprung up in Cali (majority are not licensed). It surely will happen. AND, there will be plenty of people willing to buy the illegal drugs and sell as legal to the masses because of more profit margins. Cartels will still make tons of money and still smuggle drugs.

Honestly I'd love to see all drugs on the open market. Get hooked on meth? Fine, OD and be thrown into the fire to be turned into ash. Want to come clean and get off of it? Sure, here's a rubber room, knock yourself out. No reason to further drain the public coffers on your stupidity. Want to inhale from paint cans? Knock yourself out. Want to down good cough syrup? go for it. Kill yourself. We will all be better off without you anyway.

Cannabis is still illegal in CA for consumers, and still federally illegal. This is not a good example of the potential for change.

I 100% agree with your second paragraph. It is up to the citizen to choose what he/she/it imbibes or insufflates. Wanna be a junky? Cool! At least the public will have a chance to re-coup the costs of your habits by a small sales tax.

[WDRacing]

The legalization of drugs is a great topic for another thread. But legalizing drugs won't stop illegal immigration. Mexico doesn't have a tenth of the social programs we do, nor the education system or health care system. Those reasons alone bring tons of illegals into the country.

Legalizing drugs and making the infrastructure that supports such a thing is comparable to the Mars landing. Won't ever happen, not ever.

Make a new thread about it and I'd be all about the discussion. But since it's never going to happen, talking about it in a thread about AZ illegal immigration issues is the wrong place for it.

I gave the only idea that will STOP things from entering the country. Guarded wall...done and done.

[mattblancarte]

The legalization of drugs is a great topic for another thread. But legalizing drugs won't stop illegal immigration. Mexico doesn't have a tenth of the social programs we do, nor the education system or health care system. Those reasons alone bring tons of illegals into the country.

Legalizing drugs and making the infrastructure that supports such a thing is comparable to the Mars landing. Won't ever happen, not ever.

Make a new thread about it and I'd be all about the discussion. But since it's never going to happen, talking about it in a thread about AZ illegal immigration issues is the wrong place for it.

I gave the only idea that will STOP things from entering the country. Guarded wall...done and done.

Fair enough. I brought it up because border violence is centric to the illegal immigration issue.

How should we guard the wall, in particular? I've joked about putting sentry guns up, but I like the idea of expanding the US Border Patrol. Maybe we can reduce the number of census workers and transfer funds towards staffing a wall. :P

[WDRacing]

I just pee'd a little I was laughing so hard...."sentry guns" had me in stitches dude. All I could think about was the movie Aliens but on a huge scale.

The wall could be manned by any number of agencies really. Border Patrol would be the most likely since they are already trained in most of the situations that could arise.

Seriously though, think about the amount of jobs that we could create simply by fixing one of our own damn problems. The b**** of it is we could have built the whole wall for less then we just spent bailing out AIG...lol.

WD

[mattblancarte]

Haha exactly. Maybe even sentry guns with non-lethal rounds or gas grenades. The people don't deserve execution, but they definitely don't deserve to stroll on through.

Maybe even instead of taxpayers shelling out all the dough for US Border Patrol, we can mix it between them and the private company that develops the non-lethal sentry gun. Fully-equipped with loudspeakers broadcasting en espanol.

I agree, there is a big opportunity here for gov't organizations to expand and private/public business to thrive.

[HashiriyaS14]

We don't have to figure out how to tax cartel kings if we legalize narcotics. If we legalize narcotics, ConAgra will put the cartels out of business. Granted, they might do it under some other business name, but don't think that huge corporations won't step in to get a piece of that pie.

Cartels and criminals are the ones providing drugs because they're the only ones willing to do it when said drugs are illegal, not because they're the most competitive providers. If the substances are legalized, their production and sale won't be any more eventful than the production and sale of wheat, corn, or soybeans.

[AZhitman]

Yeah, but then you'll have the geniuses in Washington pushing for huge government subsidies to let fields lie fallow, financial aid for those who suck at farming, unionization of the "Meth Cookers Of America", and cries of "unfair" from those who try to grow marijuana in Alaska.

And guess who will STILL harvest the crops?

Yep. ilegal immigrants.

[WDRacing]

If they'd quit being stupid and just make POT legal no one would even bother with other drugs...

That and build the wall with or without sentry guns shooting bean bags at 1400 fps, and that's if you make it through the sound deflectors. The tech for all of this has been around since the 90's ffs. Sad really...

[mattblancarte]

lol Meth Cookers Union.

I hope the e-verify system becomes federal law. It's a fair practice, and has relatively low error rates. The majority of errors are due to the citizen not updating their name after a marriage or something similar.

[audtatious]

Glad you guys have it all figured out.

[audtatious]

Sorry for being racist and posting a pic (probably a PS anyway)

[AZhitman]

I hope the e-verify system becomes federal law.

Don't get too excited. We're using it in AZ and it's done absolutely no good.

You gotta have personnel to oversee such a program. Personnel requires funding. Funding doesn't exist. Ergo, e-verify has become a bit of a sham.

[stebo0728]

Here is the best solution to illegal immigration I have heard so far, its a mixture of ideas, and none of them are actually mine lol, but its as follows:

1. End the anchor baby loop hole. Just because you cross the border and give birth should not give your child the blessing of american citizenship, thereby making it harder to deport you in in the process. The child should have to acquire citizenship in the same way as the parent. A child born here should only be granted citizenship upon birth if they are born to someone who has already attained citizenship themselves.

2. We are the only major player in the world who does not enforce their borders. This is ludicrous. Whats worse is we get blasted by Mexico when we even thing about enforcing our border. Take a look at how they enforce their southern border. And further more take a look at how a person has to carry papers when in Mexico. A citizen of Mexico can arrest you themselves if they find you there illegally. How the hell would that go over here you think? We have to start enforcing our borders, end of story, not just for hispanic invaders, but also think of how easily muslim terrorlst could infiltrate us across an unprotected border. If you have a leaking faucet, you dont just start trying to clean the water up without fixing the leak right? We will never get illegals out before we plug the leak in the border.

3. We have to get people who are here illegally out of the country. Its simply not fair to those who are seeking entry to this country through the proper legal channels, and then people who just sneak over here are going to be given a free pass? Even if they are law abiding citizens (except for the pesky law about illegal entry that they broke) it doesnt matter. What other laws are we going to start nudge nudge winking past? We are a constitutional replublic government, ruled by laws, and if we do not keep our laws sacred, then we are nothing. We are not governed by mob rule, although that is starting to change, we are governed by the rule of law. Im sorry for all the sad stories about so and so, and about families this, and what not, but if you came here by breaking the law, then you cant stay, you are welcome to seek entry the legal way, but you have to get at the end of the line, no cutsies.

4. Lets face it, companies are always going to secretly support illegal immigrants in order to access their labor, so, here is a private sector answer. Set up a temporary agency that handles workers from foreign countries. When a company needs a laborer, they seek one from one of these agencies. They pay a set amount to this agency for the labor of the individual. In order to receive this work as the individual you have to register with the agency in your home country. The agency gets an order for such and such number of workers, they find said workers in their own country, transport them here to where they are needed, provide their transportation, provide their housing, provide any health care they may need while here, and when the job is completed, they provide transportation back to their home country. The agency is responsible for maintaining legal status of the workers, not the company, the company just says is need 4 guys, here is 15 bucks an hour for them, and gets the work done. End of story. I think this would go a long way to helping clean this mess up.

The bottom line is, we would not be seeing things like this AZ law if there were not a problem that was way overdue to be handled. As far as the AZ law goes, can anyone tell me:

A. What abilities does this law grant to AZ law enforcement that was not already available to Federal law enforcement?
B. What paperwork does this law require an imigrant to carry, that Fereral law did not already require them to carry?

The fact is the answer to both of these questions is "None". Arizona citizens became tired of seeing the Federal government not enforcing their own statutes, that they demanded some of their own. Arizona is hit the hardest by the crime that spills over from illegal immigration, and its citizens are tired of it. The law may have its flaws, but the motivation behind the law is not going to go away. Its indicative that something must be done, at the federal level, something that will stick, and something that will be enforced. Comprehensive means there are many aspects to fix, and many details to consider, but we are a people who have through the years, overcome any obstacle, and this is no exception. The recent elections prove that the american people are beginning to wake up, and just as Japan woke a sleeping giant at Pearl Harbor, the overbearingly retarded politicians of late are about to wake another sleeping giant withing the American populous. I am excited to see things like this, and I am excited to see what the November elections will show.

[AZhitman]

Well-done, sir. Bravo.

Incidentally, we DO have #4. It's called an H1-B Visa. Feel free to read up on it. My office employs LOTS of H1-B visa holders. It's a good program, in my opinion.

[telcoman]

Dear AZ,

What's going on down there with this immigration bill? Can I get some input that hasn't been filtered by the media? I'm bringing it up because one of my local congressman is throwing a hissy fit. Any information/opinion would be appreciated. (I'm sure this topic has been covered but for some reason search isn't working for me.)

Thanks,
BBB

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04 ... gislation/

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04 ... al-debate/

Slightly related:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/04/17/vi ... -rally-la/

Home Depot in Arizona

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=RSiw0UQeW_g

Telcoman

[AZhitman]

Failed attempt at humor. However, I did chuckle at all the foreign-sounding names as the credits rolled.

Wonder if THEY'RE all legal?