Serious Problems in Winter

[ADKRogue]

Hi all!

Glad I found this forum and hope you guys and gals can help me out.

We have an '09 Rogue that we LOVE.

Well, I should say... loved.

Recently we moved from a major northeast city that has fairly flat roads and good public plowing to the Adirondack Mountains of upstate NY. Our Rogue, which has been a fantastic vehicle till this point (including a recent cross country trip!), is utterly failing us this winter.

I'm mostly convinced that our poor car has just met its match... that it just wasn't designed to handle winter conditions like we are getting. But I like the car enough that I am willing to try to make it work.

Here are the problems that we have run across so far - any thoughts or advice or help, on any of these, would be so much appreciated!

1. AWD isn't cutting it. We can't get up our driveway unless it is plowed and sanded to the extreme. If there is even a light dusting of snow, I mean half an inch, the front wheels just spin and spin and spin. Now, our driveway is steep... that surely plays a role. And no other front wheel drive car can get up it in these conditions. But a friend's Subaru just races up and down it, and another friends AWD BMW has no problem, and of course 4WD delivery trucks have had no problem.

Why would other AWD drive cars have no problem while our poor Rogue struggles mightily? Could it be tires? These other cars do not have snow tires, but I am thinking maybe the rogue require them?

Today we even had to have it towed as we got a nasty storm last night and could not get out of a friend's driveway!

2. Frozen door handles. Our doors handles have frozen 3 times this winter. Each time we have taken it in to the shop and they have had to pull the door apart and reattach a cable. We are told the problem is that the cable, or some other part, will malfunction and come apart after freezing. There was a voluntary recall issues for this exact problem, we had that recall service done after the first time it happened.

The language in the recall seemed to imply that this was a rare event. I wonder if the temps in our new mountain home are just too much for the car?


Anyway, those are the two biggies. We've also noticed lots of little annoying things that just were not a problem till we moved to the mountains. Like the position of the windshield fluid dispenser, which seems to be placed exactly where snow and ice will pile up the most... but we can live with little inconveniences.

Not being able to open our front doors, and being unable to get around the roads up here... now those are things we can't live with.

Hope someone can help!

[IBCoupe]

Don't know that there's much that can be done about it. My Altima Coupe had the same door-handle issue, I think, the first winter I got it. Dealer fixed it at no charge.

As for your traction, how are your tires looking?

[ADKRogue]

Last time the handle froze we asked the service tech to also look at the tires, and they said they were fine.

But they are not snow tires.

I am fine with spending the money to get snow tires, I just want to make sure the problem isn't the car itself, so to speak. The traction issues we are having seem pretty extreme, I would be surprised if tires made this much of a difference. And, as mentioned, the Subaru and BMW that cruise up and down our driveway both lack snowtires too.

I would just hate to dump cash on tires and find out that they don't do the trick and we just need a different car.

[IBCoupe]

I have all-seasons on my coupe, and I don't have much trouble. I'm going to be putting winter tires on them next time around, though, because I'll have a second set of wheels for summer tires. Without driving up and down your driveway myself, though, I can't vouch for my car's tires. :P

Have you tried turning TCS off? My roommate swears that the traction control on his RX-8 makes winter driving impossible. See if that does it for you, too, the next time you get snowfall. Which for you, I imagine, is in about 15 minutes, right?

[harryg]

Have you tried pushing the AWD LOCK button under the mirror controls? this will probably help you get up your driveway...but remember only to use it at very slow speeds, like getting up your driveway.
Also you could try turning off VDC and see what it does as it may not be letting the Rogue power up the driveway since your tires are spinning, it will reduce the power in an effort to get a grip.
Or it could be your tires, im not sure how bad the weather is over there but once the temperature drops regular all season tires will become hard, and the rubber compound will not be as soft as it is normally, greatly reducing the grip.
But try the AWD LOCK and report back

[harryg]

also not sure if you saw the other thread but here's a fellow forum member nbguy66 with his rogue in the snow, and it seems to be doing great. but keep in mind he has snow tires on which make a huge difference
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJv1rX2x ... r_embedded#

[ADKRogue]

I saw that youtube video a few days ago while researching this problem. Our Rogue actually does well in those conditions too. Mostly flat, snowy paved roads. That reminds me of a bad snow day in Boston, where our Rogue excelled.

Anything slightly inclined with that amount of snow though would be almost impossible for us right now. If it were a dirt road, and we were not as able to spin down to the pavement, it would be even worse.

I definitely have not been using the AWD lock... that is something I was unaware of till recently and will try it soon. We have another storm coming in so should get a good test. I'll report back then.

[harryg]

keep in mind the AWD lock is used to get unstuck in most situations, not while driving, as it puts a lot of stress on the drive-train components if used above a certain speed, even though it automatically disengages when it reaches a certain speed. BUT it should be fine to use while trying to get up your driveway and should work fairly well, if your still having problems getting up the driveway try turning off VDC (but do so at your own risk)

[philipa_240sx]

1. AWD isn't cutting it. We can't get up our driveway unless it is plowed and sanded to the extreme.

Stock all-season tires are not really up to driving in deep snow. The Continentals especially have very poor snow traction when worn. You should seriously consider purchasing a set of dedicated snow tires. I am sure your Rogue will be nearly unstoppable with the proper 'shoes'.

2. Frozen door handles. Our doors handles have frozen 3 times this winter. Each time we have taken it in to the shop and they have had to pull the door apart and reattach a cable. We are told the problem is that the cable, or some other part, will malfunction and come apart after freezing. There was a voluntary recall issues for this exact problem, we had that recall service done after the first time it happened.

If the TSB was done and you are still having issues, I would take it back and insist they double check everything. I had my door handles freeze twice. The TSB was done and I haven't had a problem since.

Anyway, those are the two biggies. We've also noticed lots of little annoying things that just were not a problem till we moved to the mountains. Like the position of the windshield fluid dispenser, which seems to be placed exactly where snow and ice will pile up the most.

You can use a small drill bit or piece of stiff wire to re-aim the washer jets. Simply insert into the nozzle and re-aim them. I found I had to tweak mine a bit as they shoot a bit low on the windshield at highway speeds.

[skyline084]

You should be happy the motor runs..
How can you not tell if your tires are good? Do they have tread left, or not?
Go Google search a picture of a new tire and compare it to yours if you really can't figure it out on your own. (New tires come with close to 1/4 in. of tread)
Check the inside as well, to make sure they are not wearing unevenly.

We have had a lot of ice up here, which makes it impossible for any vehicle to climb a hill. Door handle is stuck b.c it's cold.. easy fix. Pop the interior panel off and check why it's happening.
Fluid is spraying a different direction? I assume you leave the car parked outside in all these conditions. Ice is built up in the spray nozzle on your hood, or check the line from the tank.

[kerrton]

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles, my advice is to not give up on the Rogue, there are many of us who live in extreme winter conditions with lots of deep snow, ice and really cold temps and the resounding consensus is that the Rogue is awesome in winter.

Myself and moderator Philipa240sx for example, both have FWD Rogues and we live in some harsh Canadian winter climates and we both find the Rogue to be amazing in terms of stability, traction and all-around winter driving safety. If we have such good results with FWD, I'm sure we can help you get similar or better results from your Rogue in deep snow and icy conditions.

I would suggest using the AWD lock button when going up your driveway slowly as well as the "VDC Off" button and remember the most important rule of driving in deep snow: use gentle even pressure on the accelerator, do not spin the tires and rev the engine, this will be sure to get you stuck every time (if you do jam on the gas, the VDC will actually kick in and cut power to your drive wheels when it senses the slippage, you can disable this but remember to go really easy and steady on the gas/accelertor, spinning the wheels will just get you stuck). Forgive me I'm not sure how experienced a winter driver you are, I know it is a common mistake to go really hard on the gas and spin the tires, resulting in nothing but problems. Some minor adjustments to driving style can make a huge difference.

And of course tires are so important, I personally run all-season tires and drive very conservatively around town and avoid the highway, but this is not ideal, if you're having traction problems you definately will see a HUGE difference with winter tires.

As for the door handles, this is not a standard problem with the Rogue, I'd take this back to the dealer immediately and they'll fix them properly. I've driven through 3 long, terrible winters with my Rogue and have never had a problem (I had the door handle fix applied).

Good luck,

[Pescakl1]

Have you tried pushing the AWD LOCK button under the mirror controls? this will probably help you get up your driveway...but remember only to use it at very slow speeds, like getting up your driveway.
Also you could try turning off VDC and see what it does as it may not be letting the Rogue power up the driveway since your tires are spinning, it will reduce the power in an effort to get a grip.
Or it could be your tires, im not sure how bad the weather is over there but once the temperature drops regular all season tires will become hard, and the rubber compound will not be as soft as it is normally, greatly reducing the grip.
But try the AWD LOCK and report back

+1

Try with AWD LOCK on and VDC off and report.
Remember that the QR25DE engine is quite torquey at low revs compare to others, so be really gentle on the gas pedal. The VDC system is also quite intrusive so the combination of the two means that you won't have any power to the wheel if you are aggressive.

As for the tires, you are now living in the mountains where you got your fair share of snow in winter, so winter tires, even studded winter tires, should be mandatory for you, at least in your mind.
I am a bit North of you, and this is a mandatory law for the last 3 winter now. I have seen way less cars in the ditch since we got this law.
You should seriously think about this option on your $$$ investment.

Be careful out there.

[ADKRogue]

OK all. Update.

Got a small dusting of snow last night (quarter inch) so I figured this would be a safe testing environment... if the car didn't make it up the driveway it would be easy enough to shovel and sand it.

First test. No AWD lock. Spun out half way up.

Second test. AWD lock. Spun out three quarters of the way up.

Third test. AWD lock, VDC off. No apparent difference from second test. Three quarters.

So, no success... but improvement. I was finally able to get up the fourth try by getting a running start and gunning the engine... but I think that was because I was taking advantage of the ruts from the first three tries.

Believe it or not, a running start and tire spinning seems to be the only method that sometimes works. I think because I spin the tires till they get down to the gravel of the driveway.

I need to find a photo of my driveway so you can see that I am not trying to climb Kilimanjaro here.

[ADKRogue]

As for the door handles, this is not a standard problem with the Rogue, I'd take this back to the dealer immediately and they'll fix them properly. I've driven through 3 long, terrible winters with my Rogue and have never had a problem (I had the door handle fix applied).

Good luck,

Unfortunately, it has been to the dealer 3 times. (and the dealer is a 1 hour drive for me! ugh)

1st time they fixed it without applying the TSB. 2nd time they did the TSB. Third time I am not sure what they did...

If it happens again, I am not sure what I will do. What options do you have if something on a car just isn't working and they can't fix it?

[ADKRogue]

You can use a small drill bit or piece of stiff wire to re-aim the washer jets. Simply insert into the nozzle and re-aim them. I found I had to tweak mine a bit as they shoot a bit low on the windshield at highway speeds.

I don't mind the trajectory of the spray, but that is a great tip. I will keep it in mind!

My complaint is where the nozzle is located. Those 3 nozzle holes are behind and below the wipers, under the lip of the hood. This is exactly where the brunt of snow and ice buildup happens. For example, if you throw some snow on your windshield, and it slides down the windshield, it collects right in that little area under and behind the wipers... right where that nozzle is located. So after a heavy snow my nozzle is packed and frozen with ice and snow and just wont work till it thaws.

It is a minor complaint, and I don't know enough about it to suggest a different placement... Just strikes me as something that wasn't designed with heavy winter in mind.

[ADKRogue]

Found a photo... it is summer, but gives an idea of the distance and angle

[harryg]

OK all. Update.

Got a small dusting of snow last night (quarter inch) so I figured this would be a safe testing environment... if the car didn't make it up the driveway it would be easy enough to shovel and sand it.

First test. No AWD lock. Spun out half way up.

Second test. AWD lock. Spun out three quarters of the way up.

Third test. AWD lock, VDC off. No apparent difference from second test. Three quarters.

So, no success... but improvement. I was finally able to get up the fourth try by getting a running start and gunning the engine... but I think that was because I was taking advantage of the ruts from the first three tries.

Believe it or not, a running start and tire spinning seems to be the only method that sometimes works. I think because I spin the tires till they get down to the gravel of the driveway.

I need to find a photo of my driveway so you can see that I am not trying to climb Kilimanjaro here.

WHAT? really it didn't make it up that incline with only a QUARTER INCH? thats fudged, a quarter inch of snow is nothing wow...
and when you say "spun out" you mean it just stops going and gets stuck correct? not actually spinning out

u sure the AWD lock wasnt disengaging and the light was on the entire time?

I think your tires are done, or its way too cold over there and the all seasons are getting no grip, what was the temp when u attempted to conquer the hill?

next time film it if you can (cellphone camera is fine)

[ADKRogue]

WHAT? really it didn't make it up that incline with only a QUARTER INCH? thats fudged, a quarter inch of snow is nothing wow...
and when you say "spun out" you mean it just stops going and gets stuck correct? not actually spinning out

u sure the AWD lock wasnt disengaging and the light was on the entire time?

I think your tires are done, or its way too cold over there and the all seasons are getting no grip, what was the temp when u attempted to conquer the hill?

next time film it if you can (cellphone camera is fine)

Yeah, I mean the tires spin... I'd be a little more panicked if I was spinning out the car! Haha. So the tires start to spin, they dig up a bit of a rut, then the car starts to veer to one side and then it just stops. I slide it back down in reverse, which can be a little hairy, back out, and try again.

AWD lock light was on the entire time.

Temp was 8 degrees.

It was a quarter inch of new snow. A very light dusting. But the actual snow thickness on the driveway right now is more than that. Hard to say how much as it is plowed and packed down. Yesterday, before this quarter inch landed, I was making it up and down because of the plow and sand. Seems like any loose snow at all causes problems.

A video is a great idea. I almost took one before posting here as I was convinced the AWD wasn't working. The front tires were just spinning and spinning while the back were doing nothing. My parents have a FWD KIA and when it gets stuck it looks and behaves exactly the same as when I get stuck. I will try to take one with AWD lock on.

[harryg]

8 degrees Fahrenheit? that might have had something to do with the tires not working

[ADKRogue]

8 degrees Fahrenheit? that might have had something to do with the tires not working

Yep, Fahrenheit.

Will be 1F today.

It is what it is, these are the conditions I need the car to perform in.

I guess I am back to the question of... knowing what you know now - having seen the driveway, having gone through the AWD lock test, etc - do you think it is worth it for me to spend money on a set of good snow tires? Will they make up the difference here? Or do you think these are conditions that will just call for a different vehicle?

I know they will make a difference. I'm just questioning whether they will make enough of one. I really want to avoid throwing money at the problem in such a way that won't really solve it.

So if anyone thinks snow tires won't completely do the trick, definitely let me know!

[philipa_240sx]

Always bring the right tools for the job. In winter use snow tires!

At freezing temps, the rubber compunds used in all season tires become rock hard. In addition their treads are optimized for dry/wet roads, high mileage, and fuel economy. All of these factors make all seasons a poor choice for winter driving.

A proper snow/ice tire uses a much softer rubber compound and tread patterns optimized for snow/ice.

I will tell you from personal experience, good snow tires are a night and day difference vs. all seasons. There are places I venture that all season's would never allow me to drive through.

[harryg]

Well I think your all seasons are freezing due to the temperatures therefore they have no grip...
While winter tires stay soft and provide grip in cold temperatures im not sure to what extent the temperature range for winter tires is.
Also keep in mind the Rogue is primarily FWD and the AWD kicks in when it detects a slip..like this video kind of like the CRV http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OzK-oRPCbs
it compares the different systems...

Winter tires will definitely make a difference in your day to day driving and you will notice it. I think since temps over there are that low (1*F) you should have snow tires regardless; but im not sure if they will get you up the hill...they will help but not sure if u will make it to the top.

[ADKRogue]

Wow, thank you for that video!

That very first vehicle test - the CRV - that is EXACTLY what happens to me with the Rogue. Right down to the side to side slipping/veering that you sort of see there.

The slope of that test ramp is also about the slope of the driveway (not mine) that we had to be towed up last weekend.

[Leo2005]

Another thing you can put tire chains but then it will be PITA to take them off and put them back on again every time you go to and off the driveway since you can not drive with them all the time.

[philipa_240sx]

like this video kind of like the CRV it compares the different systems...

The CR-V 'RealTime' AWD system is a simple slip and grip type system. Meaning the tires will spin before it transfers power. It's not even comparable to the AWD system used in the Rogue uses.

Nissan employed an electronically controlled clutch to vary the power to the rear wheels. The AWD computer monitors wheel speed, steering angle, and the later yaw sensor (part of the VDC system) to determine how much power goes to the rear wheels. It works very quickly... making changes about 1/100th of a second.

[harryg]

Wow, thank you for that video!

That very first vehicle test - the CRV - that is EXACTLY what happens to me with the Rogue. Right down to the side to side slipping/veering that you sort of see there.

The slope of that test ramp is also about the slope of the driveway (not mine) that we had to be towed up last weekend.

If your tires are slipping side to side like that that means your not getting enough grip = get winter tires!
AWD isnt going to do much if you do not have the proper rubber for the job

and thanks phillipa for clearing up the CRV vs Rogue AWD

[philipa_240sx]

and thanks phillipa for clearing up the CRV vs Rogue AWD

Don't forget, Nissan has been doing electronically controlled AWD systems for years. Perhaps we can thank the AWD R32 Skyline GT-R (circa 1989) for this.

Subaru's are different as well. Depends on model and whether the car has an automatic transmission (electronically controlled AWD), manual (mechanical viscous coupling), or the STi (electronically controlled AWD).

[paulvanharte]

All I can say is, GET WINTER TIRES.
This discussion about all seasons vs winter tires is getting long in the tooth. I cant believe it, people complain about lack of traction, but dont want to spend the money on some winter tires.
I live in Edmonton and eventhough I have AWD, I will never drive without winter tires during the winter season.
Come on people use some common sense when it comes to safety!!

[skyline084]

If it happens again, I am not sure what I will do. What options do you have if something on a car just isn't working and they can't fix it?

Fix it yourself. It was built by man, so it can be fixed by man.

. Take a video, I want to see you spinning up this thing because you're probably smashing the pedal, spinning instantly. You have to be light.
All wheels are spinning, correct? so 4WD is operating normally.
If traction control is on, you will not even move.. traction control is not for winter. It's for drivers who don't know how to accelerate correctly in the rain.
Take a picture with a ruler of how much tread you have left, and everyone is correct about all season vs. snow tires.
Your spray nozzle is in a pretty dumb spot, so just put a piece of tape over the nozzle to prevent any ice freezing in the line.

[ADKRogue]

All I can say is, GET WINTER TIRES.
This discussion about all seasons vs winter tires is getting long in the tooth. I cant believe it, people complain about lack of traction, but dont want to spend the money on some winter tires.

The issue for me isn't spending money on snow tires. It is spending money on snow tires and then still not being able to drive around where I live.

A key part of my original post that I think some people skimmed over is that the two cars that made it up and down my driveway without a problem - a neighbor's Subaru and a friend's BMW - do NOT have snow tires. That little BMW also raced up and down the same driveway (not mine) that I had to be towed out of.

That is why I am questioning whether snow tires are the slam dunk answer to my problem, and that is why I haven't just gone out and bought them yet.

It sure would suck to spend that money and then still find out I need a different car, ya know?

I guess maybe there is really no way of knowing for sure.