Serious Problems in Winter

[ADKRogue]

Fix it yourself. It was built by man, so it can be fixed by man.

Will never happen.

On some level it is the principle of it. When I buy a product I expect it to work the way it is supposed to. And on another level it is the fact that I wouldn't even begin to know how to do that.

I want to see you spinning up this thing because you're probably smashing the pedal, spinning instantly. You have to be light.

I absolutely have been smashing the pedal... and I absolutely have been going light... and everything in between and every comination of them.

This has been going on all winter, a couple of times a week, in multiple locations (I am just concentrating on my driveway here), with multiple drivers behind the wheel.

If there is one thing I am certain of, it is that we have exhausted all the various "techniques" for trying to get through the snow. Up to and including, I kid you not, trying to get up in reverse. Hahah.

Next storm I will take a video of all of a few different attempts using different speeds, etc.

Oh, and no, all 4 wheels are not always spinning. Sometimes, but not always.

[philipa_240sx]

A key part of my original post that I think some people skimmed over is that the two cars that made it up and down my driveway without a problem - a neighbor's Subaru and a friend's BMW - do NOT have snow tires. That little BMW also raced up and down the same driveway (not mine) that I had to be towed out of.

But all 3 vehicles (including your Rogue) likely do not have the same tires with the same amount of wear.

Let's go back to the beginning... end the speculation... and get some facts.

ADKRogue, can you answer a few questions:

1) What tires are on your Rogue right now? Make and model please.

2) How many miles are on those tires?

3) How old? Are they original?

3) Can you measure the tread depth of all 4 tires? New tires are typically 11/32".

[ADKRogue]

But all 3 vehicles (including your Rogue) likely do not have the same tires with the same amount of wear.

This is a good point, and one I guess I keep overlooking. I suppose that is because I have never been in a situation where tread on tires, or the material they are made from, really mattered all that much. I grew up in upstate NY, with some rough winters, and my first car back in highschool rolled through the snow with 4 baldies! Ha. But that terrain definitely wasn't the mountains where I am now.

Let's go back to the beginning... end the speculation... and get some facts.

ADKRogue, can you answer a few questions:

I can try.

1) What tires are on your Rogue right now? Make and model please. -- Whatever came with the car. A 2009 Rogue. Are these standard on rogues or do they change from dealer to dealer or something? If standard, someone must know that info. Otherwise I will have to wait till after this work trip.

2) How many miles are on those tires? -- 35k

3) How old? Are they original? -- Original with the 2009 model
3) Can you measure the tread depth of all 4 tires? New tires are typically 11/32". -- this will obviously have to wait till I get back, but the dealer did tell me they were "fine" just last week

[kerrton]

I'm sure Philpa_240sx will be responding soon, but it's obvious that your tires are the problem, at 35,000 miles (56,000 km) there is no way these tires will get you around safely in winter conditions, and I'm not surprised you are having problems getting up your steep snowy driveway.

The Continental All-Season tires on your Rogue are marginal for winter applications even when they're new, and since you've put 35,000 miles on them they're down right dangerous and definately do not have the tread depth to get you around in cold, snow and ice conditions.

I've only got 28,000 miles on my original tires and I'm currently shopping for replacements, even in dry summer weather I wouldn't push these tires much further than 35,000 miles. It's too bad the dealer let you down on this one, they should have pointed out this obvious deficiency to you.

The good news is your Rogue is a great vehicle, slap on some new tires and I would bet a lot of money that you'll be very happy with this vehicle for a long time. We've got several excellent discussion threads on tires that should help you make a decision on your next set....good luck and please compare and contrast your experience after you replace the tires!

Winter Tire Thread: what-snow-winter-tires-on-your-rogue-t321013.html

All-Season Tire Thread: all-season-replacement-tires-for-the-rogue-t385804.html

[philipa_240sx]

There were 2 types of OEM tires on the Rogue:

Continental 4X4 Contacts
Dunlop Grandtrek

Which one you got depended on warehouse supply at the time.

35K on stock Conti's is a fair bit. Also important is if they were ever rotated properly hence why I asked for tread depth. Just us a ruler to measure one of the grooves. If you end up with very uneven wear front vs. rear you are going to have bigger issues.

I have to speak from experience here as I have driven 2 types of Continental tires during winter (both have the same tread pattern). The poor traction had nearly put me into the ditch more than once!

[jmbones]

Just curious, is there ice under this snow? In one of your earlier posts you stated you got a dusting of snow (1/4") and could barely make it. Was there ice? I could get up a driveway in 1/4" of snow with my 2wd Dodge Avenger. There has to be some serious issues if you can't do it in a AWD Rogue, even with bald tires. 1/4" of snow I could drive my Harley up it!! (maybe not but you get my point) If it isn't your tires, it sounds like maybe your AWD is not working correctly. I can't see a Rogue "spinning out" in snow unless it's a foot deep, having mechanical issues, or your driveway is at a 50% grade.

[pawprint]

It sounds like maybe your AWD is not working correctly.

I was wondering the same thing about your AWD system, but I also agree, 35,000 miles on the original Continentals is high.

I know this doesn't help, but I have 8,500 miles on my Continentals and have zero problems in the snow and ice we've received in Ohio for the past 2 months. I honestly don't know what it's (AWD, VDC, TCS, ABS and EBD) doing while I'm driving in the snow & ice, but I'm able to get around safely. I feel like I'm driving on normal roads until it's time to stop.

I know you mentioned replacing the Rogue or replacing the tires, I'm not sure which choice is more affordable for you, but I wish you the best and hope you have a speedy resolution.

[Nick 568]

Another thing to mention: the conditions and type of snow/ice at a specific condition can be DRASTICALLY different depending upon exact weather conditions, exact sunlight, the exact driving that's been done on it...
I know that every now and then, a surface I'm driving on will greatly surprise me and not at all act like I expected.

jmbones has a very good point- if there's a layer of ice underneath not very deep snow, then that's about the slipperiest surface out there. And, driving and spinning your wheels only acts to 'polish' the ice and make it more slippery.
I think it's a combination of that, and your stock tires being too worn.

Now, there's conditions out there that just may be too much for a vehicle. All of our vehicles have studded snow tires on them, and there's been times where they barely get up the driveway due to the conditions of the snow/ice. (AWD/4WD/FWD vehicles)

Your two options in my opinion would be to get new tires since they are at that point of needing replacement like others have said (either winter tires, or a new set of good all-seasons), or try laying down some gravel on your driveway to aide with traction.
I doubt your AWD system isn't functioning properly, but if you did get a video of what it's doing, we'd be able to tell for sure. (it'd also help the dealer if you had to take it in to get serviced because then you could show them the issue and save a lot of time)

[harryg]

Just curious, is there ice under this snow? In one of your earlier posts you stated you got a dusting of snow (1/4") and could barely make it. Was there ice? I could get up a driveway in 1/4" of snow with my 2wd Dodge Avenger. There has to be some serious issues if you can't do it in a AWD Rogue, even with bald tires. 1/4" of snow I could drive my Harley up it!! (maybe not but you get my point) If it isn't your tires, it sounds like maybe your AWD is not working correctly. I can't see a Rogue "spinning out" in snow unless it's a foot deep, having mechanical issues, or your driveway is at a 50% grade.

In one of his previous posts he says that there is snow packed down (ice) under the quarter inch dusting

It was a quarter inch of new snow. A very light dusting. But the actual snow thickness on the driveway right now is more than that. Hard to say how much as it is plowed and packed down. Yesterday, before this quarter inch landed, I was making it up and down because of the plow and sand. Seems like any loose snow at all causes problems.

[ADKRogue]

I'm sure Philpa_240sx will be responding soon, but it's obvious that your tires are the problem, at 35,000 miles (56,000 km) there is no way these tires will get you around safely in winter conditions, and I'm not surprised you are having problems getting up your steep snowy driveway.

This was great to read.

Feels funny saying that, but I am relieved to hear that my stock tires have potentially too many miles on them!

That certainly gives me hope that they are a major factor in my experience so far... and not the Rogue itself.

As to why the dealer said they were fine, well, I am not sure... but I can say that our dealer is an hour from us. So, maybe my tires are still fine for the weather/terrain where they are... I could be giving them too much benefit of the doubt there, but that is one possibility.

We have made the decision to stick with the Rogue until we can try a good pair of snow or aggressive all weather tires.

Of course the next question for us will be... what kind of tires, and do we get them with rims or without, etc. I am sure this has been discussed here before so I will search for that. But if anyone has any quick advice, please feel free to add it here.

Thank you all so much for your knowledge and patience!

[pawprint]

I saw this video and thought of you!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXuhfwY74b8

Good luck in your search for a safe & reliable set of tires!

[philipa_240sx]

Of course the next question for us will be... what kind of tires, and do we get them with rims or without, etc. I am sure this has been discussed here before so I will search for that. But if anyone has any quick advice, please feel free to add it here.

Many good choices out there for winter tires. My favorite is the Nokian Hakkapeliitta. I currently have a set of Hakka R SUV's mounted on OEM Nissan Altima ('02-'06) steel rims. Since I am not running TPMS sensors with these wheels, I do get the annoying TPMS warning light. That's is easily fixed using a 3/8" square of electrical tape... very ghetto I know.

Other winter tires that seem to do very well in testing and reviews:

Michelin X-ice
Toyo Open Country G-02
And the much advertised Bridgestone Blizzaks (I have never been a fan of them though)

[philipa_240sx]

I saw this video and thought of you!

Pawprint, nice find! Goes to show you how even 4WD won't get you home if your tires are not up to the task.

[ADKRogue]

I saw this video and thought of you!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXuhfwY74b8

Good luck in your search for a safe & reliable set of tires!

Hahaha, fantastic video. That is sooooo us. Even down to the trying to get up it in reverse!

I'd say our driveway is at about that angle, but longer. We usually look like the second car, the GMC Acdaia with all season tires, when we try to get up ours.

Looking forward to trying this with new tires. I promise to try to take before and after videos. Should be fun.

[ADKRogue]

Many good choices out there for winter tires. My favorite is the Nokian Hakkapeliitta.

We've heard good things about these tires from other people in the area!

The guy who towed us out of our friends driveway is shopping around for a set of tires for us now. He owns a garage, is native to the area, and obviously sees lots of stuck cars... so it will be interesting to see what he suggests.

[kerrton]

We're happy to help, please let us know what tires you purchase and how they work for you. In my last post above I provided the links to Rogue discussion topics on all-season and winter tires, lots of good info there and also tirerack.com is really great for researching tires.

[mpattdu]

Hey ADKRogue!

I have an '08 Rogue and replaced the stock Contis this past November with about 32,000 miles on them. They were getting close enough to the wear indicators and into the "red zone" on my tire tread tester and I figured why not start out a new set of tires going into winter instead of after it. I put Hankook Optimo H727s on and they are great! I live on a pretty steep hill and have a sloped driveway (though not as much as yours) and have never had a problem, even on ice or with pretty deep snow.

Since we're on the tail end of winter, what I'd do is go for the new all-seasons since you need them anyway and see how they perform in the snow. If you aren't completely satisfied, you can wait and give snow tires a try next season. Plus, it might be hard to find snow tires locally this time of year because places will have sold out of them and won't restock until the fall.

[kerrton]

Hey ADKRogue, did you get some new tires on your Rogue? I'm really interested to hear about the difference new tires will make for you, and I'm hoping to hear that you can conquer that steep snowy driveway of yours with no trouble...please provide update once you get a chance!

[ADKRogue]

Hi all,

I haven't forgotten about ya, or given up!

I was pretty determined to get before and after videos because, well, to be honest, I thought it would be fun. But that required waiting to buy the new tires till we got some more snow. That finally happened! So I spent some time trying to get up our driveway before it got plowed. Did about 6 tries and filmed 4 four them.

Now my plan is do exactly as mpattdu suggests. Since I need new tires anyway, I am going to first get a good pair of all season and see how they work. If they don't help, I will then get dedicated snow tires.

Without further adieu, I present you with the "Before" video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pagEBcWsOW8

Just some notes.

Clip #1 was not really the first of the day... you can see the tire marks already on the driveway. It has been my experience that the more I try and dig up the snow, the farther I can make it.

Clip #2, with AWD lock on, and similar pedal action only got me a few inches further.

Clip # 3 isn't a good one. I had someone coming up on my tail and had to hurry into the driveway... so I went heavy on the pedal and then bailed early when it was obvious I wasn't going anywhere.

Clip #4, in addition to the AWD Lock, full throttle, and the "straight on" running start... also included me putting the shifter in "L". It was also the 6th or so try of the day and the tracks from previous efforts do seem to help.

[harryg]

Its pretty obvious your tires aren't getting enough traction and it seems like you are flooring it? have you tried going slow and steady/light on the pedal with AWD lock?

Also have u tried turning OFF VDC so it doesn't interrupt when it senses your tires slipping and limit the power going to the wheels?

[ADKRogue]

The only clip where the pedal is on the floor is the very last one... the one where I actually make it up!

In clip 3, I do go pretty heavy on the pedal right out of the gate... You can see the snow fly up as soon as I pull in because of it.

But in clips 1 and 2, I am going as slow as I can. Any slower to start and I wouldn't even make it up the initial incline - I tried. I am also keeping the pressure steady. The revving and spinning that you see and hear about half way up or so happens when the tires begin slipping... although it seems like it, I am not pushing the pedal any harder there.

VDC didn't seem to make a difference. A few of the tries that I left out of the video involved me playing with it on/off and in different combinations with AWD. The results looked a lot like clip #3.

I am sooooo looking forward to getting the all seasons and videoing them!

[Pescakl1]

It seems the tires are the problems: you don't get enough grip from them.
In your case, I will go directly to a set of winter tires, the Blizzak WS70 or the Nokian Hakkapeliitta Phillip told you earlier, on a dedicated set of steel rimes and keep the conti for the summer (change them next summer, there should still be good for this one).
If the winter tires are still not enough, put studs on them.
Forget all season tires for winter time, you could make it the first winter, but you won't the next ones.

As for going on your ramp, my choice would be: AWD lock on, VDC off, and floor it, and if possible, starting straight on.

[takeshi]

A key part of my original post that I think some people skimmed over is that the two cars that made it up and down my driveway without a problem - a neighbor's Subaru and a friend's BMW - do NOT have snow tires. That little BMW also raced up and down the same driveway (not mine) that I had to be towed out of.

In addition to reasons posted above, not all AWD and 4WD systems are equal.

If you're not getting the traction you need then you need winter tires regardless of what other cars are or are not capable of.

[jmbones]

It's quite obvious the first issue is the sheet of ice and compacted snow under that fresh snow. You need to treat your driveway with some cinders and/or ice melt. That will solve most of the problems, secondly, as mentioned, is your tires.

However, in the summer I put 4 new all season Contitrac Pro Contact or something like that on my wifes Rogue. It would crawl up that hill with no problems. Her mother lives at the top of a very steep hill, I'd say twice as steep as yours, and her Rogue will go right up it with these all season tires. I will get the exact make and model of tires when I get home, but here in NE PA, we don't really need a dedicated snow tire. I was thinking of getting a spare set of steel wheels for the Rogue and mounting snow tires, but then I also need to get 4 new sensors for the TPS and I'm too lazy to spend that much right now.

With that said, I do have a set of 35" studded Hankook mud tires mounted on 8 lug steel wheels that I put on my '05 3/4 ton Dodge every winter. Really the only reason I put them on is to save the polished aluminum wheels from all the road salt and dirt but the studs help in icy situations.

[kerrton]

It's definately the tires, at 35,000 miles they're not even close to sufficient for winter driving.

Also, the "VDC Off" button is very important but I don't think you pressed it to disable the VDC? In snow this is essential, you shouldn't be trying to drive through snow and keep momentum without disabling VDC, even with AWD Locked the VDC will cut power to those drive wheels and sabotage your attempt to get up your driveway.

Disable VDC and buy new tires and you'll have no trouble getting up that driveway.

[jmbones]

...I will get the exact make and model of tires when I get home...

They are Continental ContiPro Contact, performed great all winter for her.

[ADKRogue]

Hey all,

The closest service station near where I live (which is 30 minutes away) is recommending we try Nokian WRs.

Reviews seem to be that this is a very aggressive all-weather tire... but that means it is not a true winter tire.

This guy has lived here his whole life, is the only tow truck operator in the area, has a great reputation, and obviously sees a lot of stuck cars. I feel like I can trust his opinion, yet something tells me these things might not be the tool for the job.

I suppose if it turns out they are not good enough, I can still keep them as 3 season tires...

Looking for other opinions.

[kerrton]

Where I live in Alberta they sell hundreds of sets of Nokian WR All-weather tires and every friend I've talked to raves about the tires.

This is the only tire that is suitable for driving in all weather conditions and still gets the severe service (i.e. winter) rating. Unlike dedicated winter tires, you can drive these all summer long but there is trade-offs: road noise is a little high on dry pavement, they won't be quite as good on snow and ice as a dedicated snow tire but they should be close, I believe you only get an 80,000 km warranty as opposed to the 100,000 to 130,000 km warranty that you normally get with a good all-season, and they are quite expensive, a set for my Rogue was quoted well over $1200 locally.

But by not having to purchase a second set of rims and tires, and not having to change them out twice a year most owners feel they're still way ahead of the game in terms of dollars and convenience. Also the debate on exactly when to make the switch at each major season change is avoided, so you've always got your protection even if a surprise snow storm hits in the middle of summer!

I would bet that these tires would get you up your snowy steep driveway no problem, and that you'd notice only a very marginal improvement (if any) by going with dedicated snow tires, although don't get me wrong, dedicated snow tires is still the best plan, however I've never been bothered to go this route on any of my vehicles yet.

[philipa_240sx]

but then I also need to get 4 new sensors for the TPS and I'm too lazy to spend that much right now.

Not really. This is now my 3rd winter running snow tires on the Rogue. They're installed on dedicated steel rims and I don't have TPMS sensors installed. The TPMS warning lamp turns on soon after the winters are installed and I cover it up with a small square of electrical tape. Next spring, the all seasons go back on and the tape comes off. The TPMS light clears after a few minutes of driving. Never had an issue doing this.

[Pescakl1]

Looking for other opinions.

In your case, I will go directly to a set of winter tires, the Blizzak WS70 or the Nokian Hakkapeliitta Phillip told you earlier, on a dedicated set of steel rims and keep the conti for the summer (change them next summer, they should still be good for this one).
If the winter tires are still not enough, put studs on them.

Forget all season tires for winter time in your case, you live in the mountains.